Ferguson 20 very hard to start

Emmet Manning 99

Hi all,
I have an old 4 cylinder diesel 20, it's kept in the shed when it's not being driven and when it is cold it is very hard to start. Anyone know anything i could try to fix this?

jimmyw

Is there a heater device/glow plug/thermostart on the inlet manifold? Might not be working.Hot starting is ok though?

Emmet Manning 99

Yeah there is a heater plug in the manifold. How much power roughly should be going to this? Yeah when it's warm it starts fine.

jimmyw

They are usually high current going to them about 12 volts/15Amps at least.You could just remove it and connect the wire to it and earth it to the engine.It should heat up an element red hot.The type used varies though.Other types have a valve that opens and allows diesel to be squirted onto the element to be burnt.

Its only one possible cause of your problem though as well.

Emmet Manning 99

The glow plug has a coil that heats up. I took it out and tried it off a battery and it works fine. It doesn't work with the wire going into it (multimeter is sayin 0 volts ). But when I put it back in and heated it off the battery and tried starting it no change, still hard to start. There is a pipe going into the intake manifold from the diesel tank. Isn't this supposed to let diesel in when turning over to ignite off the plug? How can I get that to work?

TrailerBob

That pipe is for the governor on the fuel pump, as it's a vacuum system, no fuel delivery. Is the oil pressure ok? Perhaps a loss of compression in the cylinders.. piston rings worn.. some of these are notoriously hard to start after high hours. I fully rebuilt mine and it starts after about 4-5 seconds every time..

jimmyw

Emmet Manning 99 wrote: »

The glow plug has a coil that heats up. I took it out and tried it off a battery and it works fine. It doesn't work with the wire going into it (multimeter is sayin 0 volts ). But when I put it back in and heated it off the battery and tried starting it no change, still hard to start. There is a pipe going into the intake manifold from the diesel tank. Isn't this supposed to let diesel in when turning over to ignite off the plug? How can I get that to work?

Are you saying that there is no power on the wire? but the plug itself is working fine? This needs to be fixed first anyway.You need to trace this back to where its powered, maybe there is a relay (there should be by rights on this circuit) thats failed, or else a faulty ignition switch or whatever switch operates the circuit.After you have fixed this, you might like to try this. Remove the plug and connect up the pipe and the wire to it if you can, and earth the plug.Operate the plug and after a bit, a flame should come out of the plug.If not, then the plug is not working right. Watch you don't burn yourself or anything else.Maybe you could throw up a pic of it?

TrailerBob wrote: »

That pipe is for the governor on the fuel pump, as it's a vacuum system, no fuel delivery. Is the oil pressure ok? Perhaps a loss of compression in the cylinders.. piston rings worn.. some of these are notoriously hard to start after high hours. I fully rebuilt mine and it starts after about 4-5 seconds every time..

I dont know about that.Are you sure? Most of these either have just a heating element alone, or also with a diesel valve to actually burn diesel.

Emmet Manning 99

Ok I will trace back the wire and see what the faulty component is. I will post up some pics of the plug etc later when I am in the shed.

Emmet Manning 99

Jimmyw can you pm me your email address as I can't post up pics?

jimmyw

If you save the image in your computer, there is an attachment link next to the "smiley face" on the posting page that says "attachments".Did you try that?

TrailerBob

I dont know about that.Are you sure? Most of these either have just a heating element alone, or also with a diesel valve to actually burn diesel.

I'm very sure that pipe going from the pump..(I see now Emmet said tank)is a vacuum pipe for the governor. Try to run the engine without it and it will race to full rpm uncontrolled... I've seen this happen..Not pleasant. The pipe connects just below the butterfly valve.

The original cold start system on this did take a shot of diesel using a seperate pump on the dash, called a Ki-Gass system. It had a small tank behind the dash and a prime shot a squirt if diesel in on top of the manifold after the heater element. It worked with the decompression lever to start on one cylinder in really cold weather. Most diesel 20's are missing the pump set-up as it was removed years ago. Not really needed in Ireland. I'll pu up pics of the unit on my tractor if you like.

TrailerBob

From reading again, (while not trying to multitask) it seems that pipe mentioned is going straight from the back of the tank to the intake manifold.. it will do nothing as it should be going to the secondary tank as a leakback. Without the Ki-Gass pump you won't get diesel into the manifold unless you do it manually

jimmyw

If I can remember correctly the fordson dexta used a similar set up whereby the throttle just opened a butterfly which allowed in just air and this automatically increased the amount of diesel injected in at the injection pump.

There was also a hand operated plunger that you pressed in (along with 20 other things to do;)) while starting to squirt diesel fuel onto the glow plug.It would help to have some diesel been squirted in like on the davy brown tractors that burns a flame to help start when cold.

Emmet Manning 99

Don't think it will let me post pics with under 50 posts. Some pics of your tractoer would be great Trailerbob. So i presume the hand operated plunger jimmyw is talking about is the ki-gass plunger on the dash which is indeed cut off at this stage. So is there anything to be done to help with the starting? There is a handle for what i believe is the decompresion rod but it is disconnected anyone know much about these?

jimmyw

I dont know if the system that trailer bob is talking about is the same as the fordson, but it sounds similar.

Did you get a pic?

Ill send my email if you then like for the pic OP.

Emmet Manning 99

Yeah i got a few pictures of the manifold, plug,vaccum pipe.

jimmyw

Some viewing

Emmet Manning 99

jimmyw wrote: »

Are you saying that there is no power on the wire? but the plug itself is working fine? This needs to be fixed first anyway.You need to trace this back to where its powered, maybe there is a relay (there should be by rights on this circuit) thats failed, or else a faulty ignition switch or whatever switch operates the circuit.After you have fixed this, you might like to try this. Remove the plug and connect up the pipe and the wire to it if you can, and earth the plug.Operate the plug and after a bit, a flame should come out of the plug.If not, then the plug is not working right. Watch you don't burn yourself or anything else.Maybe you could throw up a pic of it?


I;m not sure what you mean when you say connect up the pipe. What pipe? Videos were great by the way, i really liked the long one

jimmyw

Did you say there was a pipe going from the inlet manifold back to the tank? Is this pipe located adjacent to the glow plug?

Oh wait sorry, if its connected to the manifold, then you wont be able to connect it up to the glow plug while its removed, unless its connected up to the other style of plug that has a thread on it.

Yeah I see that series on tv a few years ago about iconic British vehicles.Another programme featured the Morris Minor. Good series it was too.


Glow plug with fuel pipe connection and heating coil and valve.
http://www.zenithglowplugs.com/glowplugs/ts/tractor-glow-plug-zith-i7-250x250.jpg

Same type on the left with pipe.On the right is just a heating coil without the fuel pipe connection.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-KgTEDA2RrWM/TeZeVMgFcfI/AAAAAAAAACw/fc1Jgtq9UMc/s1600/IMG_1141.jpg

jimmyw

Thanks,your pics Emmet were in my junk folder, I didn't spot them until now.

Yeah you have got the flame burner type glow plug, so you should be able to test it with it removed and connect up the fuel pipe from the tank (if it has one) and the power wire to test it and it should burn a flame.Where was that top grey pipe connected to in the fourth pic down? The wire with the ring on it does not look like that it was connected to the glow? Or am I wrong?

Your pics

TrailerBob

OK, it seems you have a different heater element than the original, but aside from that, this is how the set up should work. The first pic is not from my tractor as i don't have this view on the computer at the mo, but its almost identical

The pipe connected aove the heating element(with a red cover here) goes back in a single loop to the hand priming pump on the dash - the back of this is seen above the air filter. The small tank behind this coiled pipe is the reservoir for the diesel to be pumped into the manifold. if, in your case its going just to the main tank, then its doing nothing



Without this in place, its not so easy to get the diesel shot in there. As for power to the glow plug, there probably was a pull switch on the dash, but maybe long gone. Try connecting it up directly with a fused cable and see if it works, then its a case of putting in a new switch.

P.S this one is my tractor...



Its very easy started, but it has had reconditioned injectors, pump, head and new rings...it would want to be!

Emmet Manning 99

Ok so earlier i took out he plug and dipped it in diesel i had in a can lying around in the shed, i then put it back in and heated it with the jump lead for 5-7 seconds, i took off the lead and then started the tactor it started in about 2 turns! It was pretty warm out today but i still think it made a difference usually it would take a lot more even in the height of summer! I don't have the pipe going into the plug though. I also figured out its the push button thats knackered in the getting power to the plug line of things, i should be able to get a new one tomorrow. I have the small tank for the diesel but it looks like there should be one going from the hand pupm on the dash to the tank and then one going to the plug (both are cut) steel pipes by the way. It looks like theres a fuel cut off on one of these also. New pipes maybe? I wouldnt mind dipping the plug in diesel every time the tractor is cold if it meant easy starting though.
Thanks for the photo of your tractor trailerbob. Really really nice! Wish my head, pump etc was reconditioned. I notice the battery is on the oppisite side on yours. Also where did you get the ploughing lamp? Real nice

jimmyw

Thats great.I wonder could you join the plunger pipes by putting on some flexible rubber ones instead, even until maybe you had new ones installed?

The trouble with these switches for the heater plug is that the larger current that the plugs use tends to burn out the switches.A better way is to wire in a relay and that will take away the heavy current from the switch and it will last longer.

This happened to us with our Dexta and she was bad at starting like yours.When I put a light on the power wire to the plug, I discovered that the switch worked intermittently.Put a relay and switch on and it worked ok after that.

TrailerBob

That's good news Emmett, looks like you're nearly sorted. There's 2 batteries on mine - they came with two 6 volt batteries, but all were changed to one 12 volt later. I put a dead 6 volt in on that side with dummy wiring. I wanted to restore to factory condition, so had to be done! I picked up the plough lamp at an auto jumble, it's a Lucas lamp from a car of that time, supposed to be the same as the headlamp, but they're crazy money!

jimmyw

Here are some vids of a glow plug (thermostart) in our lister-petter 2 cylinder diesel engine.This is what it should be like.

The first one is were I just gave it power before starting.The second one is were I continued to give it power during starting.See the difference.If that dont get her going, then nothing will.

Though its not the original cold starting device.It originally came with just the heating coil without the fuel connection going into it.The problem with it is that the thermostart has a smaller thread than the original and so its basicly only left in the hole or slightly jammed in.This will have to be sealed some way.Click on the pics below.

Emmet Manning 99

Ok thanks a bunch for those vids jimmyw helped me understand the whole concept of it. What sort of a tank is the diesel coming from on that engine? I will definately hold the thermostart on when i am trying to start my tractor. I wired up a relay and got a new switch today but i took a look al the small ki-gass tank behind the dash and its had it. I also got an old lead off a thermostart to go into mine so really i need a way to feed it the diesel. Any ideas. I'm not sure if dipping it in diesel would be enough. I'll post up a few pics tomorrow of various bits and pieces (49 posts!). Thanks again for the videos

Emmet Manning 99

Real nice orignality trailerbob tractor looks brilliant! Think i might have to leave the lamp for now though!

jimmyw

Well that engine was never meant to have a thermostart fitted.Just the heated coil, but there is a pipe connected via a rubber pipe to a t -piece to the leak off pipe from the injectors.That's generally the way most tractors do it.Doing it this way, the diesel will only come out when the engine is actually turning over.

Emmet Manning 99

$T2eC16h,!yEE9s5jHQS!BRS4ORU+hw~~60_35.JPG
This is the tank i have

jimmyw

That tank looks small.How is it topped up? It does not matter really just so long as diesel is fed into the thermostart to create the flame.

Emmet Manning 99

Is it the line with a loop in it going from the injectors to the fuel tank?