Not taxing a car on purpose, what penalties are there?

quenching

This cropped up in conversation yesterday and nobody was 100% sure of the answer, even though someone involved was actually doing it. What penalties are there for driving a car without current motor tax?

Most believed you'd be OK for 2 months, after that the car could be seized and crushed if the outstanding tax wasn't paid, plus you would get a fine for non-display of tax, but everyone was adamant that no penalty points were issued. Nobody was certain what happens if a car was seized and you declined to pay the tax arrears and storage fees etc. Even after the car is crushed are you still liable for this money or does it "die" with car?

It was suggested that if buying a cheap older car there was essentially no real disincentive to those who didn't tax it, other than the moral issue.

So, buy a car for €1000 with a motor tax bill of €1500, drive it until caught, paya small fine, let the car be crushed and buy another. I'm told some people do it regularly, but then I'm told a lot of things!

Anyone have the facts?

doolox

These super cheap clunkers are known as "company cars" and used to be the favourite mount of small time gang members.
.
Clapped out NCT failures worth only a few hundred or less so little or no loss if seized and crushed.

I would imagine a huge fine and penalties would be incurred as the govt try to reclaim as much of the tax as possible, impossible if you are penniless and have no assets the tax people can take off you

Pa2k

My tax ran out at the end of January and the car was seized Wednesday. Got it back Thursday afternoon costing €125. Still didn't tax it and haven't received any other contact from gardaí. By law your fine for 2 months anything after that is garda discretion

maceocc2

This is one of a few well known, ripe for abuse situations, the system for older cars is setup to fail entirely, for example, an old > 3.0L engine car costing around 1000...tax bill is between 1800 - 2000 depending on how you pay.

Get pulled over.....No display fine and Impound fee - €185, no points or conviction, means you would need to be caught 10 times before it makes sense, apart for the minor inconvenience of walking home there is no substantial punishment.

corktina

It is a very badly thought out system

carzony

You will be summonsed to court for no tax and non display of tax.

Voodoomelon

I thought the whole point of this off the road declaration business was that if you're caught with the car on the road after declaring it off, you're liable for a €1000+ fine?

Is this not the case?

If it is the case, how are people getting around it? Just not declaring it off the road?

What happens if it's declared on the road, you're caught 4 months down the line with no tax, car seized etc, are you not liable for arrears too?

quadrifoglio verde

Voodoomelon wrote: »

I thought the whole point of this off the road declaration business was that if you're caught with the car on the road after declaring it off, you're liable for a €1000+ fine?

Is this not the case?

If it is the case, how are people getting around it? Just not declaring it off the road?

What happens if it's declared on the road, you're caught 4 months down the line with no tax, car seized etc, are you not liable for arrears too?

Not declaring.

I thought if you were out of tax and it was impounded you had to pay a fine plus fee plus the old tax to get it back?

Voodoomelon

That's what I thought, because you can't retrospectively declare a car off the road any more.

Still no comments on actual penalties, anyone know?

corktina

quadrifoglio verde wrote: »

Not declaring.

I thought if you were out of tax and it was impounded you had to pay a fine plus fee plus the old tax to get it back?

not presumably if you let them crush it.

Big Nasty

It's fookin stupid. The whole SORN system was brought in and if you declare your car off the road and continue to drive it you're in trouble.

The solution seems to be that if you don't declare it off the road and continue to drive it sans tax you *could* get away with it for years and when you do get caught your car is released for about the equivalent of a months tax on a luxobarge.

Haven't been stopped in any shape or form for years myself and I'd nearly put it to the test but knowing me I'd be pulled on day one.

CiniO

Voodoomelon wrote: »

I thought the whole point of this off the road declaration business was that if you're caught with the car on the road after declaring it off, you're liable for a €1000+ fine?
Is this not the case?

That's what they say.
But are there any real life examples of anyone fined that much?

If it is the case, how are people getting around it? Just not declaring it off the road?

Yes. Not declaring off the road and driving - same as before law changed.

What happens if it's declared on the road, you're caught 4 months down the line with no tax, car seized etc, are you not liable for arrears too?

You only become liable for arrears once you intend to tax the car.
And to be honest, there is no one who can force you to tax it - I don't think even court can.

CiniO

quadrifoglio verde wrote: »

Not declaring.

I thought if you were out of tax and it was impounded you had to pay a fine plus fee plus the old tax to get it back?

Towing charges and storage fee -- yes.
But no need to pay the tax before they release the car for you. It's generally none of their business if you tax it or not.

quadrifoglio verde

CiniO wrote: »

Towing charges and storage fee -- yes.
But no need to pay the tax before they release the car for you. It's generally none of their business if you tax it or not.

Hmm so if I'm caught on the road without a tax say out 12 months, I pay the storage fee and tow fee plus fine?
I don't have to pay the arrears?

What tosspot thought up of that system and what other tosspots failed to notice it?

Bigus

carzony wrote: »

You will be summonsed to court for no tax and non display of tax.

You MAY, be summoned to court maybe not.

Voodoomelon

CiniO wrote: »

You only become liable for arrears once you intend to tax the car.
And to be honest, there is no one who can force you to tax it - I don't think even court can.

Ok so those who play the game, have their vehicle seized and then get the car released, they can never essentially tax the car ever, as they will have to pay arrears?

That's the only way I can see it can work for them. I.e. there's no way of doing 3 months on, 2 months off any more as there will always be arrears?

Those who don't declare their car off the road and continue to drive, they'll never pay tax again in their lives without a change of ownership, is that correct?

Bigus

Voodoomelon wrote: »

Ok so those who play the game, have their vehicle seized and then get the car released, they can never essentially tax the car ever, as they will have to pay arrears?

That's the only way I can see it can work for them. I.e. there's no way of doing 3 months on, 2 months off any more as there will always be arrears?

Those who don't declare their car off the road and continue to drive, they'll never pay tax again in their lives without a change of ownership, is that correct?

Change owner.

NewApproach

Presumably the motor tax liability remains outstanding, even if you pay the releasing charge or transfer ownership though?

Bigus

They tried to copy the uk sorn , but our tax rates are so unfair that it encourages people to break the law in Ireland . Here's the uk rates


ROAD TAX RISES FOR 2001 to 2010 CARS
Duty rises for cars registered before 1 April 2010:
Band A up to 100g/km CO2
£0 – change £0
Band B 101-110g/km
£20 – change £0
Band C 111-120g/km
£30 – change £0
Band D 121-130g/km
£100 – change £5
Band E 131-140g/km
£120 – change £5
Band F 141-150g/km
£135 – change £5
Band G 151-165g/km
£170 – change £5
Band H 166-175g/km
£195 – change £5
Band I 176-185g/km
£215 – change £5
Band J 186-200g/km
£250 – change £5
Band K 201-225g/km
£270 - change £10
Band L 226-255g/km
£460 - change £15
Band M Over 255g/km
£475 - change £15


Read more: http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-2118653/New-road-tax-bands-Top-rate-rises-1-030-polluting-cars--Budget-2012.html#ixzz31RizSHOX
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

Big Nasty

NewApproach wrote: »

Presumably the motor tax liability remains outstanding, even if you pay the releasing charge or transfer ownership though?

No, the new owner is only liable from date of purchase.

NewApproach

Big Nasty wrote: »

No, the new owner is only liable from date of purchase.

What about the old owner? Do the liabilities just expire if he no longer owns the car?

Big Nasty

NewApproach wrote: »

What about the old owner? Do the liabilities just expire if he no longer owns the car?

Pretty much, yeah.

CiniO

quadrifoglio verde wrote: »

Hmm so if I'm caught on the road without a tax say out 12 months, I pay the storage fee and tow fee plus fine?

Only fixed penalty notice fine they can issue is 60 quid for non-display of tax disc.
If they want to prosecute you for driving without tax, it must go to court first.

Your car can be towed away by law if tax is out by more then 2 months, but afair there is nothing stopping you to pay towing fee and storage fee, and pick it up next day. They are not entitled to check whether you paid any fines or taxed your car in storage yard. You pay your towing and storage fees, and you are free to take your car.

I don't have to pay the arrears?

You don't.
Only moment arrears become due, is when you actually proceed to tax your car. If this never happens, you are not due to pay arrears.

You might obviously end up in court for driving untaxed vehicle.
And it might be a good defence for you to have your vehicle taxed before court case. (so your fine might be lower)
And to tax it, you will need to pay arrears.

But there is nothing in this world that could force you to tax the vehicle.
If you don't tax it, you still end up in court and you will get fined for driving without tax, but they still can't force you to tax the vehicle, effectively causing you won't be forced to pay arrears.

CiniO

Voodoomelon wrote: »

Ok so those who play the game, have their vehicle seized and then get the car released, they can never essentially tax the car ever, as they will have to pay arrears?

That's the only way I can see it can work for them. I.e. there's no way of doing 3 months on, 2 months off any more as there will always be arrears?

Those who don't declare their car off the road and continue to drive, they'll never pay tax again in their lives without a change of ownership, is that correct?

Yes, that's correct.
But change of ownership is just a simple signature and cost of envelope and stamp. Not too much bother i'd say.

CiniO

NewApproach wrote: »

What about the old owner? Do the liabilities just expire if he no longer owns the car?

They don't expire.
Those liabilities you are talking about never existed.

Once your tax expire, and you don't renew it, then vehicle is untaxed.
There is no liabilities at this stage. You don't owe a thing.
Your vehicle is untaxed, so you can't legally use it in public place, but you are not liable for any tax or arrears.

Only possible way, when arrears for untaxed period might become due, is when you actually proceed to tax the vehicle.

If you scrap the car, or change ownership, then it means you are not going to tax this car anymore, therefore your arrears don't become due.

quadrifoglio verde

CiniO wrote: »

Only fixed penalty notice fine they can issue is 60 quid for non-display of tax disc.
If they want to prosecute you for driving without tax, it must go to court first.

Your car can be towed away by law if tax is out by more then 2 months, but afair there is nothing stopping you to pay towing fee and storage fee, and pick it up next day. They are not entitled to check whether you paid any fines or taxed your car in storage yard. You pay your towing and storage fees, and you are free to take your car.


You don't.
Only moment arrears become due, is when you actually proceed to tax your car. If this never happens, you are not due to pay arrears.

You might obviously end up in court for driving untaxed vehicle.
And it might be a good defence for you to have your vehicle taxed before court case. (so your fine might be lower)
And to tax it, you will need to pay arrears.

But there is nothing in this world that could force you to tax the vehicle.
If you don't tax it, you still end up in court and you will get fined for driving without tax, but they still can't force you to tax the vehicle, effectively causing you won't be forced to pay arrears.

Those 1k jags have become all the more tempting

breadmonster

so you can drive your car without tax then "sell" it to your mate and then have them "sell" it back to you and that would avoid any back taxing?
interesting..

quadrifoglio verde

breadmonster wrote: »

so you can drive your car without tax then "sell" it to your mate and then have them "sell" it back to you and that would avoid any back taxing?
interesting..

Yep....I did it recently. The car was off the road genuinely for the last 6 months, however the log was delayed in arrival and I only realised too late that I only had 10 days from date of purchase to declare it off the road. I thought it was 10 days from when the log arrived for some reason.
Anyway as the car hadn't been used on the road, I was in my **** paying 6 months tax.
Extra owners, but there's feck all difference when 3 of the 7 owners have been you/your friend and I've photocopies of that should I ever need to sell.

Voodoomelon

Interesting reading.

So to come back to the off the road declaration, does anyone know what the penalty is for being caught on the road in a vehicle that's declared off it?

slimjimmc

breadmonster wrote: »

so you can drive your car without tax then "sell" it to your mate and then have them "sell" it back to you and that would avoid any back taxing?
interesting..

Yep, that's the system as it currently stands.

NewApproach

What are the penalties for:

a) driving a car without tax

b) driving a car which has been declared off the road?

Charlie19

a) €60 fine.

b) Death penalty;)

quadrifoglio verde

NewApproach wrote: »

What are the penalties for:

a) driving a car without tax

b) driving a car which has been declared off the road?

A) 60 quid fine

according to this article in the indo (can't find official source as I'm on the phone, it's a 4k fine and up to 6 months in the joy upon conviction.....I'll have the 60 quid fine please.

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/drivers-who-fail-to-declare-car-off-road-will-face-hefty-tax-bill-29175523.html

gctest50

Pa2k wrote: »

My tax ran out at the end of January and the car was seized Wednesday. Got it back Thursday afternoon costing €125. Still didn't tax it and haven't received any other contact from gardaí. By law your fine for 2 months anything after that is garda discretion

Ideal way to get an opportuinity to hide a gps tracker in it .......

must be hard to hold in the laugh though giving it back

filbert the fox

Two things:

1. If everyone decided to push the limit of the law there'd be no money in the coffers to build and repair roads,

2. If you want to drive a car on the public road do so legally - how would you feel if an uninsured driver caused €15,000 damage to your vehicle ?

I feel the same about tax dodgers....:mad:

Jimjay

Will insurance companies pay up if an insured car does not have current tax?
Do those of you who drive without tax bother to buy insurance?

seamus

Pa2k wrote: »

By law your fine for 2 months anything after that is garda discretion

This is not correct. By law you can be prosecuted if your tax is out by a single day. In practice most Gardai will let you away with it if it's out by less than a month and won't take the car away unless it's out by 3 months+. But there's nothing stopping them from prosecuting for tax that's literally just expired.

breadmonster wrote: »

so you can drive your car without tax then "sell" it to your mate and then have them "sell" it back to you and that would avoid any back taxing?
interesting..

When it comes to tax, you need to be careful about pissing about like this because the rules aren't black-and-white about how things work.
If you ping-pong a car like this you may still be liable for the tax burden, and you could also face charges of deliberate tax evasion.

A "legitimate" way of doing this would be to have your mate drive a similarly nice older vehicle and you swop cars every six months or so. It may still ring alarm bells in the tax office, but provided that you can show each of you has legitimately and in good faith swapped your vehicles, there's nothing they could do.

Jimjay wrote: »

Will insurance companies pay up if an insured car does not have current tax?

Yes. An expired tax disc does not render a vehicle unroadworthy, so insurance companies cannot void or otherwise modify the insurance policy based on it as its immaterial to the insurance.

Drummerboy08

filbert the fox wrote: »

Two things:

1. If everyone decided to push the limit of the law there'd be no money in the coffers to build and repair roads,

I feel the same about tax dodgers....:mad:

You do know that the revenue from motor tax doesnt go directly to the development and maintenance of the road network?

Caliden

filbert the fox wrote: »

Two things:

1. If everyone decided to push the limit of the law there'd be no money in the coffers to build and repair roads,

Money from motor tax is rarely directly spent on road maintenance. It's goes into the big pot with every other tax.

neacy69

only details I can find are from a year old independent.ie artilce

It will also be an offence to make a false or misleading declaration, which can carrying a fine of up to €4,000 and/or six months imprisonment on summary conviction.

This is on top of existing penalties for not having a motor tax disc, which carries a €60 on-the-spot fine.

dr.fuzzenstein

Caliden wrote: »

Money from motor tax is rarely directly spent on road maintenance. It's goes into the big pot with every other tax.

And from there on to billionaire investment bankers who gambled big time on unsecured bonds that should have been burned, but because the Irish government is about as business savvy as a new-born baby lamb, they jumped up and said "No, we'll pay! Every penny! Plus interest and a little extra for yourself, so you can buy another yacht!".
So you can rest assured that your tax money will go 2/3 to pay off some faceless, nameless banker who works in a glass and marble Taj Mahal, provided generously by the Irish taxpayer.
I personally don't feel too bad about cutting a few corners when trying to keep the roof above my head, which the Irish government is trying to steal from me by drowning me in new taxes and levies.
You cannot survive in this country by being honest. The Irish government knows that, so they build an extra 20% into their taxes to make up for losses.
That means if you are honest and pay every penny, you are paying about 20% too much. Plus you stand to lose your house.

cabb8ge

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

----The Irish government knows that, so they build an extra 20% into their taxes to make up for losses.
That means if you are honest and pay every penny, you are paying about 20% too much. Plus you stand to lose your house.

not many opportunity for PAYE worker to underpay tax

dr.fuzzenstein

cabb8ge wrote: »

not many opportunity for PAYE worker to underpay tax

That is sadly true. And also the reason why the average Joe has to bail out the state and lose his house in the process and the bigwigs get gold-plated salaries, bonuses, share options and pensions.

Pa2k

gctest50 wrote: »

Ideal way to get an opportuinity to hide a gps tracker in it .......

must be hard to hold in the laugh though giving it back

Tbf it would be impossible to hide one on or in it

Pa2k

seamus wrote: »

This is not correct. By law you can be prosecuted if your tax is out by a single day. In practice most Gardai will let you away with it if it's out by less than a month and won't take the car away unless it's out by 3 months+. But there's nothing stopping them from prosecuting for tax that's literally just expired.

I didn't write that correctly i meant they can only seize it if it is out 2 months or more

PurvesGrundy

How do you tax a car again if it has been declared off the road?

I tried to do it online, but it wouldn't let me.

CiniO

PurvesGrundy wrote: »

How do you tax a car again if it has been declared off the road?

I tried to do it online, but it wouldn't let me.

You need to go to motor tax office yourself, or post the forms.

quadrifoglio verde

PurvesGrundy wrote: »

How do you tax a car again if it has been declared off the road?

I tried to do it online, but it wouldn't let me.

You have to go to the tax office with it.
Stupid system. You should be able to tax a declared of the road car online, but no can't be done:mad:

PurvesGrundy

quadrifoglio verde wrote: »

You have to go to the tax office with it.
Stupid system. You should be able to tax a declared of the road car online, but no can't be done:mad:

Absolutely unreal...

Are such penalties actually enforced for being caught making a false declaration or is there a certain amount of discretion?

quadrifoglio verde

PurvesGrundy wrote: »

Absolutely unreal...

Are such penalties actually enforced for being caught making a false declaration or is there a certain amount of discretion?

I don't know. I haven't heard of anyone but hey I don't want to be the first person to find out.

filbert the fox

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

That is sadly true. And also the reason why the average Joe has to bail out the state and lose his house in the process and the bigwigs get gold-plated salaries, bonuses, share options and pensions.

Not sure Doctor if you mean that PAYE employees should underpay tax.
As a PAYE taxpayer myself , I realise that the possibility of avoiding tax is negligible and that it may be frustrating to see the private sector claiming for all sorts of spurious expenses and "settling" with revenue when we have to pay every cent.