Season 4 Episode 6 "The Laws of Gods and Men": *HAVENT* read the books MOD NOTE POST1

thefa

Thought that episode was a mixed bag.The iron bank scene in Bravos was required to advance that story but I was glad their representatives only got one scene.It felt like the Salladhor Saan scene was thrown in for the nudity. The Meereen plot didn't really advance but we got to see a dragon.

Enjoyed the stealth attack by Yara to take back Theon. Her escape seemed a bit convenient though. We were really shown how far gone Theon is in terms of submissiveness, childlike in someways. He couldn't even snap out of it when faced with his own sister. Ramsay is the creepiest character that gets semi-regular screen time. Very volatile character. Thought the bathing scene was going to have a nasty twist.

The show trial was good for the most part, especially towards the end where Tyrion came to the fore. Amazing how little actions, quips and threats in the past are being used as evidence against him but it helps to remind what an eventful storyline he's had and how he's always been in the thick of the politics in King's Landing. I'm trying to weigh up whether I'm more disappointed with Shae or Varys. Varys, just like all the rest, tows the party line when the chips are down. Shae plays the woman scorned role and it was a bit of reminder of the story he tells to Shae and Bronn of how he had loved a hooker before and ended up suffering as a result.

MOD Note, Folks it's a small thing but possibly a big thing for others.

Going forward can we please make it a point to spoiler anything relating to stuff in trailers etc. for upcoming episodes. I know the info in the video is out there, but there are some people who actively avoid trialers for upcoming episodes, there has been some discussion along these lines in this weeks thread so in future can we at the very least spoiler those things please.

DL Saint

thefa wrote: »

Enjoyed the stealth attack by Yara to take back Theon. Her escape seemed a bit convenient though. We were really shown how far gone Theon is in terms of submissiveness, childlike in someways. He couldn't even snap out of it when faced with his own sister. Ramsay is the creepiest character that gets semi-regular screen time. Very volatile character. Thought the bathing scene was going to have a nasty twist.

The show trial was good for the most part, especially towards the end where Tyrion came to the fore. Amazing how little actions, quips and threats in the past are being used as evidence against him but it helps to remind what an eventful storyline he's had and how he's always been in the thick of the politics in King's Landing. I'm trying to weigh up whether I'm more disappointed with Shae or Varys. Varys, just like all the rest, tows the party line when the chips are down. Shae plays the woman scorned role and it was a bit of reminder of the story he tells to Shae and Bronn of how he had loved a hooker before and ended up suffering as a result.

Yeah I was cringing watching that bath scene because I thought it was going to take a bad turn. Poor Reek, I wonder how his undercover mission will turn out? Will he possibly get reminded of the old Theon and turn. Anyone any idea what castle he is being sent to take? Moat Cailin perhaps?

I found the whole witnesses in the trial a little too convenient. How were all those who were called able to recite word for word what Tyrion had said to them in the past? Seems a bit unrealistic imo. Just on the trial by combat, can he get someone to fight for him like in the Eerie? Will we be seeing Bronn for Tyrion and Jamie for Cersei? That could be one hell of a fight...

RobbingBandit

That bath scene was worse than the rape scene a couple of weeks ago, poor Tyrion too.

Kirby

Tyrion needs a defence attorney!

DDC1990

I wonder who the crown will pick for the Trial by combat.

- Oberyn is an excelent swordsman, but I can't see him putting himself forward
- Tywin could pick Jamie - who would have to chose between his own life and the life of his brother (might let himself die to save Tyrion)
- Tywin could fight himself to make it personal. Also if Tyrion beat him the foreshadowing at the Bank of Braavos might come to pass, where Kings Landing doesn't have a viable leader to guide Tommen.
- Bronn would be an interesting one as well- but more like something they'd write for a TV show then for a book.
- If its one of the Kings Guard I could imagine Tyrion beating them.

Exciting times.

Kilkenny14

Kirby wrote: »

Tyrion needs a defence attorney!

Better Call Saul!

Also part of me hoped when Tyrion said he wanted to confess, I really hoped he would finish his story of the jackass and the honeycomb.

willmunny1990

I can't imagine a scenario where Tyrion fights for himself.

I think I saw a clip somewhere of what looked like Prince Oberyn fighting the mountain so maybe that's it, Gregor fighting for Twyinn and Oberyn fighting for Tyrion.

It would make sense because who else would Tywinn get to fight? Gregor is one of the most violent and feared warriors in Westeros and we all know Oberyn is dying to get a shot at him for killing his sister so he would have no problem accepting this fight on Tyrion's behalf.

Rubber_Soul

With all the build up over the season about him learning to fight again with one hand, surely Tyrion will nominate Jaime to fight for him? Great from a drama point of view as Cersei and Tywin would be completely torn.

Edit: Or can he even nominate someone himself? Can't remember who nominated who at his other trial.

Grimebox

What are the rules for trial by combat? Seems like a bit of flawed system. Why have a normal trial at all if he can just demand a trial by combat regardless

Witcher

Grimebox wrote: »

What are the rules for trial by combat? Seems like a bit of flawed system. Why have a normal trial at all if he can just demand a trial by combat regardless

If you win you're innocent, lose you're guilty.

Grimebox

So if you are found guilty in a normal trial and condemned to death, always demand a trial by combat. In the last trial by combat, Bron had to volunteer himself. I can see Jamie doing the same thing.

cathalio11

Grimebox wrote: »

So if you are found guilty in a normal trial and condemned to death, always demand a trial by combat. In the last trial by combat, Bron had to volunteer himself. I can see Jamie doing the same thing.

Tyrion wasn't declared guilty at that point. He demanded the trial by combat before a verdict was reached.

Grimebox

cathalio11 wrote: »

Tyrion wasn't declared guilty at that point. He demanded the trial by combat before a verdict was reached.

I'm aware of that. I'm just pointing how how exploitative that tradition can be.

Pepe LeFrits

Presumably it can only be done prior to the verdict being reached.

TimeToShine

At any point during a verbal trial you have the option of demanding trial by combat. This is usually only the case when someone is sure he/she is going to lose the trial. Trial by combat in this context essentially puts matters in the hands of the Gods, and if you win it's seen as the God's way of proving your innocence and vice-versa.

TimeToShine

DL Saint wrote: »

I found the whole witnesses in the trial a little too convenient. How were all those who were called able to recite word for word what Tyrion had said to them in the past? Seems a bit unrealistic imo.

I would guess that it implies that those "witnesses" were bought by Cersei or someone else and as a result had their story rehearsed.

Baba P

Wow. This is gonna be great

Paddy Cow

Grimebox wrote: »

So if you are found guilty in a normal trial and condemned to death, always demand a trial by combat. In the last trial by combat, Bron had to volunteer himself. I can see Jamie doing the same thing.

Even if Jamie still had his good hand, he is kingsguard and no way could he defend the person accused of murdering the king.

wp_rathead

Wait... so Iron Bank have given a loan to Stanis to build an army?!?! That is pretty big news..

The Greyjoy's trying to free Reek/Theon was fun..

Guessing the Trial by Combat either going to be the Mountain vs Prince from Dorn or be Jamie vs SOMEONE, maybe Bronn as he did teach Jamie fight with one hand so make sense in a story arc sense..

Essien

wprathead wrote: »

The Greyjoy's trying to free Reek/Theon was fun..

I didn't like that bit at all, well not that it was bad, it just seemed silly. 6 episodes in, they finally make it to Theon and just run away then after 5 minutes. I know it's leading on to something bigger but it was a lame effort at a rescue.

Deco99

i get why oberyn would jump at the chance to represent tyrion if the mountain was put forward by tywin, i just dont get why tywin would do that, maybe he knows oberyn would froth at the opportunity and he could kill two birds one stone? still where is the mountain? i thought he is way up in the riverlands or further north, raping and pillaging and all other forms of good old fashioned high jinx.

MadYaker

Deco99 wrote: »

i get why oberyn would jump at the chance to represent tyrion if the mountain was put forward by tywin, i just dont get why tywin would do that, maybe he knows oberyn would froth at the opportunity and he could kill two birds one stone? still where is the mountain? i thought he is way up in the riverlands or further north, raping and pillaging and all other forms of good old fashioned high jinx.

Theres no way its going to be the mountain, he isn't even in kings landing. Tyrion will will probably choose Bron. Not sure who Tywin will pick. Unlikely he'd choose Jamie considering the little deal they struck. Maybe some member of the Kings guard?

2ndcoming

I think the Mountain is the most likely choice as Tywin's champion. He's always been the most feared and fearsome Lannister knight. The likes of Ser Meryn wouldn't have a chance against Bronn, so it would be a bit too easy of a way out for Tyrion.

He would never risk Jaime and it's unlikely Tyrion would risk Jaime either, given his lost sword hand. Bronn would probably be Tyrion's first choice, but I could imagine Oberyn stepping forward to get his chance at vengeance.

I thought Tyrion was great in this episode, as usual. Love when he gets a meaty bit of dialogue to chew up.

TimeToShine

2ndcoming wrote: »

I think the Mountain is the most likely choice as Tywin's champion. He's always been the most feared and fearsome Lannister knight. The likes of Ser Meryn wouldn't have a chance against Bronn, so it would be a bit too easy of a way out for Tyrion.

He would never risk Jaime and it's unlikely Tyrion would risk Jaime either, given his lost sword hand. Bronn would probably be Tyrion's first choice, but I could imagine Oberyn stepping forward to get his chance at vengeance.

I thought Tyrion was great in this episode, as usual. Love when he gets a meaty bit of dialogue to chew up.

You make it sound as if Tyrion can just pick whoever he wants from a queue of fighters! If Tyrion asked Bronn he would definitely say no, he says himself that he only fights for gold which he now has. Tyrion needs someone to come forward for him, similar to what happened with Bronn the first time around, except now he's seen as a kingslayer so why would anyone be on his side?

2ndcoming

Good point. I guess apart from a maimed Jaime he's left hoping someone will decide to step forward. Jaime might not be too keen on it either considering he told him to keep quiet and go to the wall.

Unless he fights himself, but against any knight he would be seriously up against it.

Excited to see what way this will pan out!

FortuneChip

It could be a few weeks before we find out though. There's a gap in the 10 episode run, isn't there?
No Jon, Bran, Ayra & Hound this week and minimal Daenerys as well.

willmunny1990

FortuneChip wrote: »

It could be a few weeks before we find out though. There's a gap in the 10 episode run, isn't there?
No Jon, Bran, Ayra & Hound this week and minimal Daenerys as well.

Ah here tell me this is bull****.

Having a gab in a ten episode series doesn't make sense.

MadYaker

Just realised if Tyrion goes to The Wall Jon Snow will probably chop his head off so I can't see that happening. Also with a wildling attack on castle black imminent there might not be a Nightswatch for him to join. It will be a trial by combat and whoever fights for Tyrion will probably win..... does he then get off scot free? Maybe then they can actually try to figure out who actually did it.

wp_rathead

willmunny1990 wrote: »

Ah here tell me this is bull****.

Having a gab in a ten episode series doesn't make sense.

yes a weeks gap between episode 7 and 8 I believe - some American holiday is on

ArmaniJeanss

willmunny1990 wrote: »

Ah here tell me this is bull****.

Having a gab in a ten episode series doesn't make sense.

It makes a little bit of sense as Season 2 Ep 9* was a ratings fail (relatively) as it was on Memorial Weekend (a 'bank holiday weekend') so they decided to skip this weekend in season 3 and season 4.


* Battle of the Blackwater, the most expensive episode which made the rating thing even harder to swallow for them.

willmunny1990

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

It makes a little bit of sense as Season 2 Ep 9* was a ratings fail (relatively) as it was on Memorial Weekend (a 'bank holiday weekend') so they decided to skip this weekend in season 3 and season 4.


* Battle of the Blackwater, the most expensive episode which made the rating thing even harder to swallow for them.

Didn't no that. I can see their thinking alright if thats the case.

ben.schlomo

Great episode, the bit with the Ironborne was excellent, and Tyrions performance is the series highlight so far for me. Peter Dinklage is superb. Prince Oberyn and Varis was also very good, like an alternative Littlefinger scene.

youreadthat

Maybe the hound will somehow be his champion. You saw in the teaser him saying he's now a bag of silver to people so he obviously finds out the orders to kill him. If he found out he could have one final duel with the mountain it could be his dream ending to the brotherly fued.

J. Marston

Wasn't a fan of the Ironborn attack. Before she set out last season, Yara made a big speech about how she was going to march on the Dreadfort and save her little brother and then she made a another speech last night about how being Ironborn means nothing if they don't save Theon.

I know Theon seems totally lost but the climax of the Ironborn running away from some dogs was a let-down.

The rest of the episode was it's usual brilliance. Plus this....



How fecking cool is that?! I don't think you want to mess with a city that has one of those.

cathalio11

MadYaker wrote: »

Just realised if Tyrion goes to The Wall Jon Snow will probably chop his head off so I can't see that happening.

I don't agree.

Tyrion and Jon formed a friendship in Season 1 when they were on the wall together. Tyrion saved Jon's life, remember, or at least saved him from multiple stab wounds.

Tyrion has also done more than anyone to try and reinforce the wall.

I'm sure Jon will understand that Tyrion didn't have any say in Ned Stark dying, and he may actually be happy that Tyrion "killed" Joffrey.

FortuneChip

Jamie's got a forlorn look on his face following Tyrion's declaration.
He'll no doubt feel obliged to intervene.

Oberyn looks intrigued more than anything. I'd say he'll happily sit back and see what happens. Sure he finds his inclusion in the trial as entertaining enough.

Whatever about Dinklage in Seasons 1-3, this is a different Tyrion altogether. The witty retorts, the hopeless victim, long gone. He says it himself, that he's been on trial his whole life, and the Shae betrayal is final straw.

It was great how all the things he'd said in jest came back to haunt him as well. All the things that we loved him for, and now they could be his undoing.

Just a really great scene.

Brendan Filone

Peter Dinklage must have reached down into some real life dwarf experience and anger at society for the last half of his speech.

That was some real, true, loathing the world passion on display there putting the whole world on trial for treating him as such for his physical form and not who he is as a person.

Shane St.

Won't add anymore that to say Peter Dinklage was fantastic

Naydy

That final scene was one of the best so far this series. The look of betrayal on Tyrion's face when Shae twists everything and the outburst at the end towards Tywin.. just brilliant.

Did anyone else think Margaery looked like she was really feeling guilty about the whole thing, especially when the necklace was brought out? Do you think she might convince Loras to stand for Tyrion?

I'm struggling to think of anyone else. I doubt either Tyrion or Tywin would risk Jaime in his current state. And Oberyn was already promised the Mountain by Tywin, I don't understand why he'd feel the need to step into a trial where he risks the Mountain getting away with his sister's murder if he dies.

lbj666

Guys, what episode before was it mentioned that Jorrah was sent to spy on Danerys or have i just missed something glaringly obvious all all along.

Witcher

lbj666 wrote: »

Guys, what episode before was it mentioned that Jorrah was sent to spy on Danerys or have i just missed something glaringly obvious all all along.

Season 1, Episode 5; The Wolf and the Lion

Grimebox

J. Marston wrote: »

Wasn't a fan of the Ironborn attack. Before she set out last season, Yara made a big speech about how she was going to march on the Dreadfort and save her little brother and then she made a another speech last night about how being Ironborn means nothing if they don't save Theon.

I know Theon seems totally lost but the climax of the Ironborn running away from some dogs was a let-down.

The rest of the episode was it's usual brilliance. Plus this....



How fecking cool is that?! I don't think you want to mess with a city that has one of those.

This is pretty cool if you have never heard of it. I learnt about in a game of Civilisation :pac:

wp_rathead

Tyrion to Shae

Naydy

lbj666 wrote: »

Guys, what episode before was it mentioned that Jorrah was sent to spy on Danerys or have i just missed something glaringly obvious all all along.

Jorah was sending info to Varys about Dany, which led to them sending the assassin with the poison wine. Jorah was sent a pardon by the crown, and could have returned to Westoros, but he ignored it and instead saved Dany from being poisoned and stayed with her.

I forget what exact episode but it was Season 1.

Precious flower

Prince Oberyn, love him more and more with every episode. I think he is on Tyrion's side though as blase as he seems about everything. I just love his attitude towards Tywinn. He doesn't seems scared by anyone.:D

Cersi must have really threatened Shae to get her to ensure Tyrion's guilt. I mean I know she was angry at being sent away, but I don't think she would have sentenced Tyrion to death like that unless she had been really threatened.

I wonder was the scene with the dragons making it clear that they are slightly beyond Dany's control anymore. I think she will be finding it harder to kept everyone happy and that will cause her serious problems.

Ramsey is so creepy. Find it really hard to watch the scenes between him and Theon. He makes my skin crawl.

wp_rathead

Precious flower wrote: »

Prince Oberyn, love him more and more with every episode. I think he is on Tyrion's side though as blase as he seems about everything. I just love his attitude towards Tywinn. He doesn't seems scared by anyone.:D

Cersi must have really threatened Shae to get her to ensure Tyrion's guilt. I mean I know she was angry at being sent away, but I don't think she would have sentenced Tyrion to death like that unless she had been really threatened.

I wonder was the scene with the dragons making it clear that they are slightly beyond Dany's control anymore. I think she will be finding it harder to kept everyone happy and that will cause her serious problems.

Ramsey is so creepy. Find it really hard to watch the scenes between him and Theon. He makes my skin crawl.

I don't know, I actually think Shae was saying those things as she believed the things that Tyrion said to her to get her to leave.. Could be proven wrong in later episodes though, will have to see..

nxbyveromdwjpg

2ndcoming wrote: »

I think the Mountain is the most likely choice as Tywin's champion. He's always been the most feared and fearsome Lannister knight. The likes of Ser Meryn wouldn't have a chance against Bronn, so it would be a bit too easy of a way out for Tyrion.

Tywin doesn't want Tyrion to die though does he? As he's just made a deal to continue his lineage based on Tyrion living on.

But why is everyone assuming someone will be fighting for him anyway, would he not just be fighting himself?

Next episode should be good

Grimebox

Someone mentioned it before. I think the Mountain will be Tywin's chosen warrior with Oberyn taking his opportunity to fight him on Tyrion's behalf.

willmunny1990

nm wrote: »

Tywin doesn't want Tyrion to die though does he? As he's just made a deal to continue his lineage based on Tyrion living on.

But why is everyone assuming someone will be fighting for him anyway, would he not just be fighting himself?

Next episode should be good

Tyrion vs The Mountain:D

scudzilla

I'm thinking Tywin will choose The Mountain as his man, Oberyn would have had no intention of getting invloved, but when he finds out it's The Mountain he steps up for tyrion.

Another idea, Can Tyrion choose whoever he wants to fight for him? If he wanted a sure thing then wouldn't he choose Tommon?

Gadgie

J. Marston wrote: »

Wasn't a fan of the Ironborn attack. Before she set out last season, Yara made a big speech about how she was going to march on the Dreadfort and save her little brother and then she made a another speech last night about how being Ironborn means nothing if they don't save Theon.

I know Theon seems totally lost but the climax of the Ironborn running away from some dogs was a let-down.

Yeah, that part didn't make a lot of sense to me. She's presumably spent months at sea, sailing all the way around the south of Westeros from the Iron Islands on the west coast to the Dreadfort on the north east side, and then gives up when threatened with some dogs?