British military presence in Ireland 1906

CDfm

ledgebag1 wrote: »

Lads and lassies get back to helpin me, come on

If you are trying to find out about British Army life , I suggest you start with the Garrison towns.

http://irishgarrisontowns.com/soldiers-homes-a-refuge-from-temptation/

1906 was after the Boer Wars but is close in time to find information.

Soldiers were young , James Connolly had been a boy soldier in Cork.

Details of crime and court martials would also be interesting.

Jawgap

You could try some biographies / autobiographies. A lot of WWII senior commanders started in the Edwardian British Army......here's an extract from a biography of Alexander....(I scanned it so there may be some typos from the OCR software)....

The Army had no real function except in war. The notion of maintaining an army to prevent war was not then born: the soldier's purpose was to wage it, and the waging of war could not be taught except by war itself. Therefore the conscientious officer wanted war, just as an actor desires live performance not constant dress rehearsal, but he thought it unnecessary to do much to prepare himself for it. What the Brigade taught in peacetime was conduct. This meant two things.

First, the importance of hierarchy and discipline. A guardsman will look at a man's shoulders before the face above them, to see what stripes or stars they carry. Obedience to the superior officer is laid down by regulation and accepted by habit. Drill is its most obvious manifestation.

Moving together, halting together, shifting feet and rifles in exact synchronization and alignment, create the expectation of command and an instinctive response to it which hold together a body of men in the totally different situations of battle when everything else is confused.

Careful attention to dress and routine strengthens their cohesion. It is no coincidence that uniform and uniformity are linked words. Drill and turn-out and punctuality give the Sergeants something to shout about on the parade ground and so establish their authority, but all three evoke a response which is less grudging than most guardsmen would admit. Perfection in something so simple as a polished boot or belt, or the kaleidoscopic change of a battalion on parade from one formation to another, induces satisfaction and ultimately pride. For centuries discipline of this kind has been an incentive for the regular soldiers of all armies. In the Brigade of Guards it became a point of honour.

Conduct also meant a standard of behaviour. Among officers the most important assumption was that one should not let another down.
So basic was this rule that in the Brigade a special word was applied to any breach of it, to 'cart'. You could cart a brother-officer by leaving him all evening with a plain girl while you danced off with the belle of the ball (you could also cart the plain girl by abandoning her), and you could cart him by borrowing his polo-pony and laming it, or in battle by failing to relieve him on time. Betrayal at any level led to ostracism in the mess. You must not fail to repay a debt, nor cheat at cards, nor reveal a confidence, nor speak maliciously of women.

There were certain rules of etiquette too. An officer must not be seen to carry a suitcase or even a parcel. He must not reverse in waltzing. He could smoke Turkish, but not Virginian, cigarettes. Some of these conventions survived until the opening year of the Second War, and may seem absurd, but there was also a tolerance in the Brigade which even sophisticated officers like Osbert Sitwell and Harold Macmillan came to admit as an influence on their whole lives.

Privacy was respected, and variety of character welcomed. If you did not choose or could not afford to hunt or play polo, and preferred to paint or read, it was not held against you. While intellectual accomplishment was rare, it was not despised.

Shyness was considered a drawback, not a deformity, and heartiness thought vulgar unless wit or adventurousness were allied to it. The importance of leadership was little emphasized, since there were so few opportunities to display it, the men living for most of the time apart from their officers.

The serious study of war was almost unknown. All the qualities required of an officer in battle were assumed to be latent, fostered in peacetime by lively society and energetic sport, tempered by chivalry, comradeship, generosity and a certain decorum. It is best summed up by their definition of a gentleman as a man in whose presence a woman feels herself to be a lady.

The whole Brigade of Guards was of this character, and they knew themselves to be collectively an elite.

tac foley

...so awfully nice to see that little, if anything, has changed.

Just kidding.

tac

riffmongous

CDfm wrote: »

They weren't Redmond's Volunteers as Redmond had made a play for political control, nonetheless their origin were with the Gaelic revival movement.

They were often referred to as Redmonite Volunteers, see page 2

http://www.bureauofmilitaryhistory.ie/reels/bmh/BMH.WS0966.pdf#page=20

CDfm

riffmongous wrote: »

They were often referred to as Redmonite Volunteers, see page 2

http://www.bureauofmilitaryhistory.ie/reels/bmh/BMH.WS0966.pdf#page=20

Maybe so, but they weren't in Easter 1916.

For the purposes of the thread it gives a wrong impression of the military presence in 1906.

riffmongous

CDfm wrote: »

Maybe so, but they weren't in Easter 1916.

For the purposes of the thread it gives a wrong impression of the military presence in 1906.

The posts quoted were referring to world war 1

CDfm

riffmongous wrote: »

The posts quoted were referring to world war 1

The OP must have picked 1906 for a reason and I don't know why.

The military/paramilitary in 1906 were the Army and IRB.

By 1914, there were The Army , IRB , Irish Volunteers, Irish Citizen Army and UVF.


(I have mentioned the Boer War and Major John McBride had been a Volunteer.)

Subsequently there were a few royal visits before the war.

I can only imagine that the OP is tapping into the period before these changes occured.

ledgebag1

Hiya

I am really just trying firstly to clarify if the British army were present in Dublin at this time, that's the first question.

Secondly, if so, where were they stationed, were they a visible presence on the streets of Dublin or throughout towns for that matter too.

Could they be seen off duty around the city, or moving around the city in uniform.

Essentially trying to understand to what extent might they have been present, am I making any sense?

thanks

riffmongous

Is there any particular reason for 1906? (You dont need to be specific, just wondering if it needs to be 1906 exactly ) Or how much of a range can there be?

CDfm

The first part of your question is military records

The census doesn't name soldiers but if you scroll to the end here you will see the military mentioned. The census of 1901 and 1911 are either side of 1906.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/exhibition/dublin/law_order.html


Next were they visable around the city and how would you prove it ? Photos maybe but maybe marriage records. Perhaps events were recorded in the newspapers of the time.

Why the questions OP?

Santa Cruz

CDfm wrote: »

The first part of your question is military records

The census doesn't name soldiers but if you scroll to the end here you will see the military mentioned. The census of 1901 and 1911 are either side of 1906.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/exhibition/dublin/law_order.html


Next were they visable around the city and how would you prove it ? Photos maybe but maybe marriage records. Perhaps events were recorded in the newspapers of the time.

Why the questions OP?

The society pages of the day always gave a good account of officers at garden parties etc. I think that they were a regular presence on the streets going about their business without any hassle

GaelMise

Owryan wrote: »

Pre WWI roughly 10% of the British Army was "Irish" http://www.dublin-fusiliers.com/statistics.html. Between 190-200,000 Irish enlisted during the war, hardly a sign that the army was seen as an oppressive force.

At one stage, late 18th century it was estimated that upwards of a third of the British Army was recruited from Ireland http://belfastmediagroup.com/fascinating-insight-into-the-irish-who-joined-british-army/

Why is it significant that a third of the personell were from Ireland at the time? Ireland accounted for more than a third of the population of the UK at that point.

PhoenixParker

The national museum in Collins Barracks has a major exhibit on Irish Military History at the moment, including sections on the British Garrison in Ireland.

A visit there will give you the best overview of the British military presence in Ireland.
http://www.museum.ie/en/exhibition/list/soldiering-at-home.aspx

Claw Hammer

The British found it cheaper to maintain troops in Ireland rather than in Britain. Troops were often recruited in Britain and sent to Ireland for training and rotated to and from various parts of the empire. In 1906 in Dublin, there were troops in Beggars Bush, Portobello Wellington, Richmond and Islandbridge Barracks and Dublin Castle on the Southside of Dublin and in Linen Hall, Infirmary Road, Royal And Marlborough and Barracks on the Northside.

GaelMise

Claw Hammer wrote: »

The British found it cheaper to maintain troops in Ireland rather than in Britain. Troops were often recruited in Britain and sent to Ireland for training and rotated to and from various parts of the empire. In 1906 in Dublin, there were troops in Beggars Bush, Portobello Wellington, Richmond and Islandbridge Barracks and Dublin Castle on the Southside of Dublin and in Linen Hall, Infirmary Road, Royal And Marlborough and Barracks on the Northside.

Why would it have been cheaper to station them here?
Internal Security seems to be the main reason for the significant disparity between the stationing of troops in Britain and Ireland.

Jawgap

Claw Hammer wrote: »

The British found it cheaper to maintain troops in Ireland rather than in Britain. Troops were often recruited in Britain and sent to Ireland for training and rotated to and from various parts of the empire. In 1906 in Dublin, there were troops in Beggars Bush, Portobello Wellington, Richmond and Islandbridge Barracks and Dublin Castle on the Southside of Dublin and in Linen Hall, Infirmary Road, Royal And Marlborough and Barracks on the Northside.

Cost had nothing to do with it. Nor were we disproportionately garrisoned.

The whole of the UK was divided up into Regimental Districts as part of the Cardwell and Childers Reforms. There over 100 such districts and about 8 were on the island of Ireland.

Robert Hand

Jawgap wrote: »

The Army had no real function except in war. The notion of maintaining an army to prevent war was not then born: the soldier's purpose was to wage it, and the waging of war could not be taught except by war itself. Therefore the conscientious officer wanted war, just as an actor desires live performance not constant dress rehearsal, but he thought it unnecessary to do much to prepare himself for it. What the Brigade taught in peacetime was conduct.... .....

Might this very good quotation apply uniquely to the British Army alone. It relied on the Navy as against a standing army like the Germans and French, in both World Wars?

Robert Hand

About now, 100 years ago, a British Army cavalry unit of about 200 troopers were departing from Lusk Remount Depot for France. Uniquely as many as maybe double that of civilian grooms went too. [I've a source whose father worked at the Depot back then maintains that they were CONSCRIPTED, this despite conscription starting in the UK in 1916 and never in Ireland.] The Lusk Remount Depot was one of only 4 in the then UK. ...rjh

British Remounts: The remount service became the responsibility of the Army Service Corps in 1891. By 1914 the War Office contained the Director of Transportation and Remounts (COL C H Bridge was in charge of Remounts). Each Command Headquarters (9 in 1914) had a Deputy Assistant Director (or Directors) of Remounts, who was responsible for collecting information on the horse population in his area, by law he had the authority to enter stables and classify animals even in peace time. Each district in the command would have an assigned Purchasing officer (of the 9 Commands 7 had multiple districts). Also, the UK had a Registration Act in peace time to compulsory purchase 14,000 horses in event of war. In 1914 it produced 140,000 horses.

In Pre-war UK there were 4 remount companies;
AA Company — Woolwich. Eastern Command.
BB Company — Dublin. Irish Command.
CC Company — Lusk. Irish Command.
DD Company — Dublin (temporary, although in existence since at least 1904). Irish Command.

There were 5 remount Depots in UK
No. 1 (Dublin, Lusk Farm)
No. 2 (Woolwich)
No.3 (Melton Mowbray)
No.4 (Arborfield Cross, near Reading)
No. 5 (Pinckards farm, Godalming)

And one Depot in South Africa, Pretoria

Robert Hand

From the document "Aspects of Horse Breeding and the Supply of Horses in Victorian Britain"

With the establishment of the Remount Department as a separate branch of the [British] Army in I887, the old system of purchasing horses through the medium of agents or regimental colonels was abandoned in favour of direct purchasing by the Inspector-General of Remounts. Animals so acquired were drafted to the remount centres at Woolwich and [Lusk] Dublin and first used on manoeuvres when they reached six years of age.

General Robert Wardlaw, drawing on twenty-five years' experience of buying cavalry horses in Ireland, articulated a widespread view when he suggested that the government should revert to the traditional practice of acquiring remounts at three-years old and rearing them in a depot or stud farm before despatching them to regiments. By this means, competition from foreign purchasing agents would be circumvented while farmers, spared the cost of an extra year's keep of their saddle type horses, would be encouraged to sell to the Army at a discounted price

Robert Hand

CURRAGH REMOUNT DEPOT. 06 May 1919
Hansard vol 115 cc730-1 730
§17. Major Sir K. FRASER asked the Secretary of State for War whether he will consider the question of moving the remount depot, at present at the headquarters of the Irish Turf, Curragh Grand Stand, county Kildare, to a more suitable place, in view of the fact that the present remount (temporary) tin stabling there is badly situated, being in close proximity to the racing stables, and as remounts are purchased from all parts of Ireland and collected there, and they must bring disease that will spread through the training establishments, and as it is essential that racing should be encouraged in Ireland in order to keep up the supply of suitable Cavalry remounts, and, again, as there is no grazing at the Curragh and no land for sale except at a high price, while there is plenty of good grazing at Lusk, will he consider the question of 731 returning the Curragh remount depot to Lusk when there is good permanent remount stabling?

§Mr. CHURCHILL I have called for a report, and will communicate with my hon. and gallant Friend later.
§Mr. ARCHDALE Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there have been a great number of cases of parasitic mange brought back by the clothing of Army horses?

§Mr. CHURCHILL I must ask for notice of that question, as I cannot pretend to have direct knowledge of it.

aboysham

Thank you for posting these details, it's easier to find information on Irish horses that Irish people.
Surprising how little has changed with regard to the truth.

johnny_doyle

some pre and post 1906 figures are on the BMI website at

http://www.militaryarchives.ie/collections/online-collections/maps-plans-drawings-collection/history

There are a few drawings re parts of the depot at Lusk (as well as the Magazine Fort etc)

CDfm

I came across this site on deaths

http://www.cairogang.com/soldiers-killed/CAUSE_OF_DEATH/MURDERED-BY-SOLDIER/murdered-by-soldier.html

I picked the most salacious link , but to assess how people lived it helps to see how they died

tac foley

CDfm wrote: »

I came across this site on deaths

http://www.cairogang.com/soldiers-killed/CAUSE_OF_DEATH/MURDERED-BY-SOLDIER/murdered-by-soldier.html

I picked the most salacious link , but to assess how people lived it helps to see how they died

What is the connection between these murders in the early 1920s and Ireland in 1906?

tac

CDfm

tac foley wrote: »

What is the connection between these murders in the early 1920s and Ireland in 1906?

tac

oh silly me , I went for the tabloid edition, here is the main link

http://www.cairogang.com/soldiers-killed/list-1921.html

if you click on the category and the individual names then there bio's , available records, details of the incidents come and somr press cuttings. So these are sources and people might but a different interpretation to the authors on them.


I clicked on the murders but there are also suicides, accidents and illness.

And tac, isn't it the kind of detail you like.

Robert Hand

CDfm wrote: »

I came across this site on deaths


I picked the most salacious link , but to assess how people lived it helps to see how they died

Most surprising for me was the number of suicides ranging from out of windows(?), poison, bullet and more.