Should be Beyonce's sister be impriosoned?

Wishiwasa Littlebitaller

Jester252 wrote: »

Katie Taylor is an Olympic boxer but she is only 60kg and 5" 5'

She'd batter Bono.

_Redzer_

Wishiwasa Littlebitaller wrote: »

Katie Taylor says hello.

And I said most women did I not? And knowing my strength, right? Katie Taylor is an exception in a minority.

I would say that while I'm still not far off 6ft 2 and a regular gym goer, Katie would probably land me on my ass, and in which case if she was going to try and injure me, I would retaliate, as I'd feel like she could do me serious damage if set on it. That's just self defence.

The large majority of the time that's not the case, though. And there's often a big strength disparity, so no, I wouldn't advocate a man just punching a woman in the jaw if he can use the same strength to restrain and subdue her.

WilyCoyote

Arthur Beesley wrote: »

I hadn't realised that Sonny Knowles had 2 daughters.

And one of them sings like Dickie on crack.

Czarcasm

Jester252 wrote: »

The reason why men don't report is because it's not taken seriously by the media.

Horse before the cart there. They don't report because they think they'll be seen as weak. The media only give the public what they think they want to hear. The media are only interested in selling news, not making it. If men don't stand up, men don't get counted.

Case in point. A women chopped a man penis and the view or some other show had a bunch of women laughing at the man's expense. As one of the guest pointed out that if a man had attacked a women in the vagina with a knife, they would be no way a bunch of guys would be laughing at her expense.

There are plenty of people that would laugh at a woman getting stabbed in her vagina. I remember one particular case a few years back when a man found out his girlfriend was cheating on him and he superglued her vagina, "hilarious" apparently, among some people. The fact is you're always going to have people like that. The world is full of sick fcuks, regardless of gender.

People need to feel reassured but we live in a society and right now its hard for men to report domestic abuse as society see men as the cause for domestic abuse.

And how do you break that stigma for men? Encourage them to react to violence with violence, or encourage them to report the assault. Domestic violence is also an issue for the LGBT community, who are just as reluctant to make a report when they are assaulted by their partner.

For example
Police will more than likely side with a women in a domestic disturbance.

Gardaí and support agencies are there to support the victim of assault, regardless of gender. You're perpetuating a misconception by repeating the above, which just fuels the stigma that discourages men from reporting incidents of domestic violence.

The Man Up campaign run by Safe Ireland

More reporting -> more awareness -> more support -> more funding -> more services -> more campaigns -> more reporting.

See how the feedback loop works? It starts with more reporting of the issue of male victims of domestic violence, by male victims of domestic violence.

I Heart Internet

Tordelback wrote: »

Sometimes reading the posts on Boards makes me feel physically sick. To see people equating this silly little emotional spat with women being beaten to a pulp by their husbands and boyfriends, or spending every day living in fear for themselves and their kids is genuinely disturbing:

Why is this a "silly little emotional spat?" How do you know this is not a regular occurance? How do you know Jay Z is not constantly in a state of fear and anxiety around this person? Why are you so quick to say that such a sustained physical assault is just an "emotional spat." Would you describe violence directed towards women in such a way?

Tordelback wrote: »

Of course the law should be applied equally to both genders, but really, Jaz-Z's sister-in-law had an ineffectual go at him, with both having the full knowledge that the bodyguard wouldn't let this go anywhere. Pretending this is an affront to the rights of men and the grim endpoint of feminiist dominion is frankly pathetic. She's an idiot. He's an idiot. End of story.

Why is he an idiot? All I saw was him getting attacked.

The law is one thing, and yes, it should be applied equally. But you won't even approach violence to men and violence to women in an equal way, so what hope do we have that the law will?

AdolfHipster

_Redzer_ wrote: »

And I said most women did I not? And knowing my strength, right? Katie Taylor is an exception in a minority.

I would say that while I'm still not far off 6ft 2 and a regular gym goer, Katie would probably land me on my ass, and in which case if she was going to try and injure me, I would retaliate, as I'd feel like she could do me serious damage if set on it. That's just self defence.

The large majority of the time that's not the case, though. And there's often a big strength disparity, so no, I wouldn't advocate a man just punching a woman in the jaw if he can use the same strength to restrain and subdue her.

^

Jester252

AdolfHipster wrote: »

Using Katie Taylor maybe a bit much but nonetheless she would obliterate most of us on AH. Especially me since all I can do is pick my nose:pac:

In a straight up fight Taylor is at a 5" disadvantage and at minimum 15 kg lighter than an average Irish male. She would have a tough time.

Maphisto

Tordelback wrote: »

Sometimes reading the posts on Boards makes me feel physically sick. To see people equating this silly little emotional spat with women being beaten to a pulp by their husbands and boyfriends, or spending every day living in fear for themselves and their kids is genuinely disturbing: what sort of view of the world must you hold in your head to think like that? And that's without even considering the notion that this was anything resembling 'sexual assault'.

Of course the law should be applied equally to both genders, but really, Jaz-Z's sister-in-law had an ineffectual go at him, with both having the full knowledge that the bodyguard wouldn't let this go anywhere. Pretending this is an affront to the rights of men and the grim endpoint of feminiist dominion is frankly pathetic. She's an idiot. He's an idiot. End of story.

Nicely put. I'm frequently reminded of

jackofalltrades

Czarcasm wrote: »

If by "They", you mean men, then yes, absolutely they could, by walking into their local Garda station and reporting the assault. That way Gardaí have a record and from those records, a case can be made to argue for more funding from Government to address the issue of male on female domestic violence.

There are some organizations out there such as AMEN and RCNI (to a lesser extent) that advocate for support from Government, but because they lack support from men, it's almost impossible to form a cohesive strategy to tackle the issue.

No I don't mean men when I said they.

I was talking about the government and more specifically COSC (The National Office for the Prevention of Domestic, Sexual and Gender-based Violence).
They should be making sure through their funding on DV awareness programmes that it's both genders who are the perpetrators and the victims.

You're engaging in victim blaming by putting the onus on abused men to come forward so that there numbers can be counted and an argument can be made for better funding. Especially in a society that doesn't take domestic violence against men very seriously.

Cazzoenorme

Czarcasm wrote: »

Horse before the cart there. They don't report because they think they'll be seen as weak. The media only give the public what they think they want to hear. The media are only interested in selling news, not making it. If men don't stand up, men don't get counted.





There are plenty of people that would laugh at a woman getting stabbed in her vagina. I remember one particular case a few years back when a man found out his girlfriend was cheating on him and he superglued her vagina, "hilarious" apparently, among some people. The fact is you're always going to have people like that. The world is full of sick fcuks, regardless of gender.





And how do you break that stigma for men? Encourage them to react to violence with violence, or encourage them to report the assault. Domestic violence is also an issue for the LGBT community, who are just as reluctant to make a report when they are assaulted by their partner.





Gardaí and support agencies are there to support the victim of assault, regardless of gender. You're perpetuating a misconception by repeating the above, which just fuels the stigma that discourages men from reporting incidents of domestic violence.




More reporting -> more awareness -> more support -> more funding -> more services -> more campaigns -> more reporting.

See how the feedback loop works? It starts with more reporting of the issue of male victims of domestic violence, by male victims of domestic violence.

you can report violence and defend yourself.

AdolfHipster

Jester252 wrote: »

In a straight up fight Taylor is at a 5" disadvantage and at minimum 15 kg lighter than an average Irish male. She would have a tough time.

Im 5'9 and 74kg and she would absolutely obliterate me. But that wouldnt stop me from retaliating (and most likely failing - again this is a bit much) I dont see what the fuss is. Obviously if there is such an obvious size and strenght disparity then it would never reach the lengths needed to be called an "assault" as they would be subdued pretty quickly. Although, this size disparity isn't always the case. If I was being attacked (regardless of gender) and felt my health was at risk I would retaliate violently (put them on the ground as I put it) if I couldnt do that then I guess I'd just be the victim of a sustained attack. The mere fact that I mentioned a woman in it has gotten me some stick, which I still dont understand.

Jester252

Jester252 wrote: »

In a straight up fight Taylor is at a 5" disadvantage and at minimum 15 kg lighter than an average Irish male. She would have a tough time.

bernard dunne is 5 foot 6 and 55kgs would he have a tough time taking the average irish male?

(mayweather and pacquaiao are the same height and about 10 kgs heavier theres few men in the country that would last half a round with them)

Jester252

Czarcasm wrote: »

Horse before the cart there. They don't report because they think they'll be seen as weak. The media only give the public what they think they want to hear. The media are only interested in selling news, not making it. If men don't stand up, men don't get counted.

Its because the media is why men think they will be seen as weak. How are you suppose to feel conformable to report if society is making fun of male victims of domestic abuse?

There are plenty of people that would laugh at a woman getting stabbed in her vagina. I remember one particular case a few years back when a man found out his girlfriend was cheating on him and he superglued her vagina, "hilarious" apparently, among some people. The fact is you're always going to have people like that. The world is full of sick fcuks, regardless of gender.

Was that done on a popular TV show?

And how do you break that stigma for men? Encourage them to react to violence with violence, or encourage them to report the assault. Domestic violence is also an issue for the LGBT community, who are just as reluctant to make a report when they are assaulted by their partner.

Neither is being encouraged.

Gardaí and support agencies are there to support the victim of assault, regardless of gender. You're perpetuating a misconception by repeating the above, which just fuels the stigma that discourages men from reporting incidents of domestic violence.

At arriving to the scene of domestic abuse the gardas will aid the female before the male.

More reporting -> more awareness -> more support -> more funding -> more services -> more campaigns -> more reporting.

See how the feedback loop works? It starts with more reporting of the issue of male victims of domestic violence, by male victims of domestic violence.

Why does male domestic abuse need to start with more reporting. Reporting is happen yet nothing else.
Rape victims have support, funding, services, awareness and campaigns even though most rapes go unreported. Should we pull all these services until more victims report.

Without support and services how can you expect a guy to report domestic abuse?

Without awareness how are guys meant to know it acceptable to report domestic abuse epically when the only national organisation representing frontline domestic violence services in Ireland is telling you to man up.

ivyQ

Cazzoenorme wrote: »

you can report violence and defend yourself.

Domestic violence usually escalates over time ...so yes reporting and engaging with available supports ...police ...courts etc would be defending yourself against future abuse .

i think this particular incident is being overblown by a few on here there are incidents where women attack men and it is wrongly shrugged off just because its woman on man but this is not one of them. much ado about nothing tbh.

Jester252

Seamus Limited Squash wrote: »

bernard dunne is 5 foot 6 and 55kgs would he have a tough time taking the average irish male?

(mayweather and pacquaiao are the same height and about 10 kgs heavier theres few men in the country that would last half a round with them)

Outside of a boxing ring? He would.

WilyCoyote

My God .......... so much mail about a crackhead. In another world she'd be at the street corner flogging her cha-cha.
This was a publicity stunt. She's known for unorthodox methods of getting attention.
And for someone who, reputedly in her own words, wants to make it on her own, it is strange that she would get stuck into a convicted knife stabber that shot his brother and flogged crack.

But it guaranteed front page in some of the papers

Jester252

Jester252 wrote: »

Outside of a boxing ring? He would.

your absolutely wrong about that im 5 foot 11, 85 kgs and im in pretty good shape, i also play contact sports and have done martial arts sporadically and i recon i would last all of maby 2-3 minutes in a street fight with him.

your deluded if this is your opinion

py2006

humanji wrote: »

But as has been said before, switching Jay-Z and the sister around isn't equal. There's the size difference, there's the celebrity status and there's the fact that they're two different people.

Put a diminutive man and a burly woman in the lift, and people would be laughing at the man flailing wildly during their hissy fit. You'll still get people shouting that it's an outrage that a man would attack a woman, but no more than you get now from people shouting about perceived inequality.

This really isn't the gender issue that people are trying to make it out to be.

A kick in the groin is a kick in the groin. It hurts like hell, its a different kind of pain that only a man can understand. It doesn't hurt less because a woman or a small woman does it.

Jester252

Seamus Limited Squash wrote: »

your absolutely wrong about that im 5 foot 11, 85 kgs and im in pretty good shape, i also play contact sports and have done martial arts sporadically and i recon i would last all of maby 2-3 minutes in a street fight with him.

your deluded if this is your opinion

I don't know what Dunne has to do with the point that Katie would have a tough time defending herself against an average Irish male.

I was sexually abused as a child, according to some on this thread. Was kicked in the nuts aged 14.

So in the words of Beyoncé herself, I'm a Survivor....

Christ.

osarusan

Title of thread makes it sound like a combination of prison and poison.

I'm all for that, especially for Jay Z.

Cazzoenorme

Omackeral wrote: »

I was sexually abused as a child, according to some on this thread. Was kicked in the nuts aged 14.

So in the words of Beyoncé herself, I'm a Survivor....

Christ.

There are different degrees of sexual abuse, It's not meant in a disrespectful way to victims of more severe sexual abuse. A kick in the testicles is sexual abuse, but obviously a different degree and category to other types.

Jester252

Jester252 wrote: »

I don't know what Dunne has to do with the point that Katie would have a tough time defending herself against an average Irish male.

you mentioned her dimentions as a reason she wouldnt hold her own shes slightly smaller than him but a full 5 kgs heavier she would demolish the "average irish male"

jimgoose

osarusan wrote: »

Title of thread makes it sound like a combination of prison and poison.

I'm all for that, especially for Jay Z.

You iz jealoused 'cuz you haz not had that fiiiiine booty. Crackaaa!! :cool:

Merkin

Cazzoenorme wrote: »

There are different degrees of sexual abuse, It's not meant in a disrespectful way to victims of more severe sexual abuse. A kick in the testicles is sexual abuse, but obviously a different degree and category to other types.

Jesus H, you're not going to let this drop are you?

Sexual abuse is sexual abuse and a knee in the goolagongs (and we don't even know that for definite given the quality of the footage) is NOT sexual abuse, it is assault. Sexual abuse is something else entirely and if you had belief enough in your conviction you wouldn't have felt it necessary to edit your opening post.

jimgoose

Jester252 wrote: »

I don't know what Dunne has to do with the point that Katie would have a tough time defending herself against an average Irish male.

By that rationale a Shaolin monk would probably be overcome by the average Hardy Buck in tanked-up Saturday night belt-up mode. :pac::pac::pac:

I'd imagine Ms. Taylor would thump the living shyte of the average Irish Male, perfect specimen and all as he is.

I Heart Internet

Seamus Limited Squash wrote: »

i think this particular incident is being overblown by a few on here there are incidents where women attack men and it is wrongly shrugged off just because its woman on man but this is not one of them. much ado about nothing tbh.

Why not?

She clearly launches into a sustained physical assault on the man.

Wishiwasa Littlebitaller

Violence against men will always be seen as a joke. Look how on that American talk show where Sharon Osbourne punched the air when they were discussing a man who's wife cut of his penis. The audience laughed, as did the rest of the panel.

Check out this ad where female violence against men is used as a means of humour. Can you imagine women all sitting in casualty after being so severely beaten and it being used as a punchline in an advert:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dzWxDyEKXk

Cazzoenorme

Merkin wrote: »

Jesus H, you're not going to let this drop are you?

Sexual abuse is sexual abuse and a knee in the goolagongs (and we don't even know that for definite given the quality of the footage) is NOT sexual abuse, it is assault. Sexual abuse is something else entirely and if you had belief enough in your conviction you wouldn't have felt it necessary to edit your opening post.

Abuse of sexual organs is sexual abuse. There can be more than on category of sexual abuse.

corner of hells

Cazzoenorme wrote: »

There are different degrees of sexual abuse, It's not meant in a disrespectful way to victims of more severe sexual abuse. A kick in the testicles is sexual abuse, but obviously a different degree and category to other types.

No , a kick in the testicles is not sexual abuse .
You're' starting to be insulting now by suggesting there are degrees of sexual abuse , its very simply defined as any activity designed to force or coerce somebody into unwanted sexual activity.

osarusan

Cazzoenorme wrote: »

Abuse of sexual organs is sexual abuse. There can be more than on category of sexual abuse.

I was an amateur boxer for a few years. I was punched in the balls at least 5 times I'd say. Am a victim of sexual abuse?

Also, I punched one opponent in the balls deliberately, and with much malice aforethought. Am I also guilty (morally) of sexual assault?

Dia1988

Yes, next question!

_Redzer_

Jester252 wrote: »

I don't know what Dunne has to do with the point that Katie would have a tough time defending herself against an average Irish male.

She's still trained to fight, and an Olympic gold medalist at that.

I can hold my own, but I'm always going to be at a disadvantage if I'm against a professional who is trained to fight.

Cazzoenorme

osarusan wrote: »

I was an amateur boxer for a few years. I was punched in the balls at least 5 times I'd say. Am a victim of sexual abuse?

Also, I punched one opponent in the balls deliberately, and with much malice aforethought. Am I also guilty (morally) of sexual assault?

Yes, that's what it is.

I Heart Internet

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Why not?

She clearly launches into a sustained physical assault on the man.

because people get drunk and throw a punch or two every weekend men hit men, women hit women, on a far rarer occasion a woman will hit a man but from what iv seen (the view tends to be pretty decent if you can get a window seat at mcdonalds:D) that is maby one slap and a walk away, iv seen men push women and walk away just the same.

if a woman started full on attacking a man for all shes worth and there was no seperating them then yes i feel hes within his right to hit her once that will stop it i would imagine but in this case the bouncer pulled her off that was the end of it. i would imagine they will have had a serious talk about this since and it will have been settled one way or the other .

its not right far from it but it happens we've all seen it and charges are rarely brought up in this scenario regardless of the sex of the person.

py2006

Should she go to jail? Prob a bit excessive
Sexual abuse? Not one bit. Could have been very damaging to his sexual organs though.

Will there be outrage? Not even remotely comparable to the reverse gender scenario.

Will men point out the double standard? If we don't it will keep happening.

Class dismissed! :P

I Heart Internet

Seamus Limited Squash wrote: »

because people get drunk and throw a punch or two every weekend men hit men, women hit women, on a far rarer occasion a woman will hit a man but from what iv seen (the view tends to be pretty decent if you can get a window seat at mcdonalds:D) that is maby one slap and a walk away, iv seen men push women and walk away just the same.

if a woman started full on attacking a man for all shes worth and there was no seperating them then yes i feel hes within his right to hit her once that will stop it i would imagine but in this case the bouncer pulled her off that was the end of it. i would imagine they will have had a serious talk about this since and it will have been settled one way or the other .

its not right far from it but it happens we've all seen it and charges are rarely brought up in this scenario regardless of the sex of the person.

All I hear are excuses.

That kind of assault shouldn't be tolerated from anyone, man or woman.

Nor am I suggesting that the assault gives the man in question any right to punch back. Although, the poor guy caught in the middle was right to try and restrain her.

People seem very keen to excuse violence towards men on here.

Cazzoenorme

Cazzoenorme wrote: »

There are different degrees of sexual abuse, It's not meant in a disrespectful way to victims of more severe sexual abuse. A kick in the testicles is sexual abuse, but obviously a different degree and category to other types.

Sexually assaulted by my own brother so, I'm gonna need therapy.

Merkin

Cazzoenorme wrote: »

Abuse of sexual organs is sexual abuse. There can be more than on category of sexual abuse.

By your reckoning, most lads whose balls have dropped and had the most basic schooling should get in touch with One-in-Four post haste then.

How come we don't see wholesale convictions for "sexual abuse" given that a knee in the balls falls under such a crime?

Change the record, it's becoming dull and no one believes you :rolleyes:

Cazzoenorme

Omackeral wrote: »

Sexually assaulted by my own brother so, I'm gonna need therapy.

You need to get over the definitons, it is sexual assault by definition.

Just because it's called sexual assault doesn't make it any more or less serious than it is

efb

If you punch a female in the chest, it's not sexual assault. If you grope her breasts, it is- Same logic applies here

jimgoose

Merkin wrote: »

By your reckoning, most lads whose balls have dropped and had the most basic schooling should get in touch with One-in-Four post haste then.

How come we don't see wholesale convictions for "sexual abuse" given that a knee in the balls falls under such a crime?

Change the record, it's becoming dull and no one believes you :rolleyes:

I was some serial abuser when I was full-back for the school in East Limerick back in the day. Anyone who saw the kind of livestock we were hurling against wouldn't blame me!! :pac::pac::pac:

I Heart Internet

Cazzoenorme wrote: »

You need to get over the definitons, it is sexual assault by definition.

It is a physical assault on ones sexual organs. It is not an assault that is sexual in nature though.

I Heart Internet

I Heart Internet wrote: »

All I hear are excuses.

That kind of assault shouldn't be tolerated from anyone, man or woman.

Nor am I suggesting that the assault gives the man in question any right to punch back. Although, the poor guy caught in the middle was right to try and restrain her.

People seem very keen to excuse violence towards men on here.

im not excusing violence in the slightest (i said that in my post) last "street fight" i was in was in primary school its childish and reflects badly on you as a person i agree with you 100% on that and i agree that violence towards men is not given the notice it deserves i got quite irate about it on a thread a few months ago. i just feel its being overplayed in this particular scenario.

I Heart Internet

Seamus Limited Squash wrote: »

i just feel its being overplayed in this particular scenario.

I think it may be overplayed because it highlights something that is not spoken about too often (violence from women on men).....and, of course, the fact that they're celebs.

Just to add, all those calling Beyoncé a phoney etc because she didn't step in would be frothing at the mouth calling her a knacker if she did start streeling out of everyone. There was a bodyguard there and he did the job that needed doing.

Muise...

Omackeral wrote: »

Sexually assaulted by my own brother so, I'm gonna need therapy.

I sexually assaulted myself trying to get to grips with a tampon when I was 12! :eek:

Czarcasm

Jester252 wrote: »

Its because the media is why men think they will be seen as weak. How are you suppose to feel conformable to report if society is making fun of male victims of domestic abuse?

If a person is the victim of domestic violence, then they should report it. The fact that they are afraid of what society might think is the reason why many of them don't report it, so there is a struggle to get men to put their safety ahead of their masculinity. That's a hard task, but not an impossible one, and it's the only way to get society to take the issue seriously. The media are only interested in giving society what it wants, what they think will sell. Social injustices aren't very high on their agenda.

Was that done on a popular TV show?

Nope, that got no media attention because the woman never reported the incident.

Neither is being encouraged.

More and more on social media, men are saying how they would have no issue with committing violence against a woman, in the name of "gender equality". Never a thought given to how about discouraging women from committing violence against men would be a much better strategy, and saying that violence against anyone is unacceptable?

At arriving to the scene of domestic abuse the gardas will aid the female before the male.

Continuing to peddle that ill informed nonsense only perpetuates the stigma and discourages men from reporting. You are essentially to blame for peddling misconceptions that discourage male victims, but it's easier to blame "the media" and "society". You are PART of that society, so instead of perpetuating myths, inform yourself.

Why does male domestic abuse need to start with more reporting.

I've already shown you with the feedback loop why male victims of domestic abuse need to report it.

Reporting is happen yet nothing else.

More perpetuating myths. Just because you personally aren't aware of it, doesn't mean nothing is being done. More needs to be done though to create awareness so that you are aware of what's being done. That won't happen until more men report incidents.

Rape victims have support, funding, services, awareness and campaigns even though most rapes go unreported. Should we pull all these services until more victims report.

Up until recently in history it was legal for a man to rape his wife in Ireland. These services didn't happen overnight. They've been fighting for awareness and advocating for female victims of domestic violence for decades now, so what makes you think support for men will happen overnight if nobody stands up for themselves and reports the perpetrators?

As you said yourself, most rapes go unreported, and look at the services available to those victims of rape that come forward. The services provided are only serving the immediate demand. If there is little or no demand for a service, it isn't seen as necessary to fund one. That'd be a waste of money, and these services are always looking for ways to cut costs and raise funds. The recent "Walk into light" by Pieta House is a good example - more awareness brings in more funding.

Without support and services how can you expect a guy to report domestic abuse?

He pays his taxes like everyone else doesn't he? Make the Gardaí work for their wages instead of giving out that they do nothing. They do nothing, because there's nothing to do if they're not made aware of an incident.

Without awareness how are guys meant to know it acceptable to report domestic abuse epically when the only national organisation representing frontline domestic violence services in Ireland is telling you to man up.

How are men supposed to know that they should report an assault to the Gardaí?

Seriously?

That campaign was aimed at men, to join women advocating for women, in the fight against domestic violence against women, perpetrated by men. Their brains were on vacation the day they came up with that piss poor effort, but that's what happens when people advocating for an issue disappear up their own arse holes and forget about the people they're supposed to be advocating for and providing support services for them.

Suffice to say I thought the "man up" campaign was a ferocious waste of precious funds, on a ball of shìte campaign.

Wishiwasa Littlebitaller

I Heart Internet wrote: »

People seem very keen to excuse violence towards men on here.

If by here you mean, Planet Earth? Yes, I agree