First time breeding...questions.

slookie

Hi all, I have a 3 year old Samoyed that is just coming into heat at the moment. It will be my first time breeding from her so I have a few questions. I have a dog lined up for her, both have been to vet to be checked and all is good. He is a one year old and lives a mile away which is handy. So just a few questions.
1. What day or days are best to get them to mate? I noticed blood on her yesterday for the first time, so she is just at the start. The dog owner isn't too inclined to leave her dog with me for 2 or 3 days till he has the job done, as they have another dog and she says they will miss eachother. But theres no problem in me bringing him to my house for 4 or 5 hours and putting them into the run together. But what day is ideal to do this? Like I assume there's no point in bringing him this evening as she is not properly "fertile".
2. Will I know the "job" is done? If I see him up on her, can I assume that he has mated with her? Should I bring him to her 2 or 3 times just to make sure.
3. If I know 100% that he has done the job, is it safe to let my dog out around again? There's a sheepdog and a Jack Russell at neighbours, and they practically live at my house when she is in heat. I hate having to keep her locked up for the few weeks so if she was done, would they still get the scent from her and stay trying to get up on her?? And if they did, could they mess up the first job....I know that sounds stupid, but bear with me! Not sure of all the phrases and terminology!
I think that's all for now. Any help would be appreciated.

jameshayes

prepare yourself for the high horses, they'll be through here in a while...

Fair play for getting them vet checked! this is more than most do... Did you see if there is a sam club in Ireland? If there is, I'm sure they would be more than happy to help with specifics..

slookie

Oh I know they'll be on with their advice, and telling me I'm irresponsible blah blah. Ya I rang them but all details I could find seem to be outdated, contact no.s etc. Anyway, a quick google search tells me days 12-14 are optimum, assuming yesterday was day 1.

DBB

To both posters so far...
If you want advice, by all means ask for it.
But do not come in here and slate the users of this forum. It's not on, and certainly doesn't encourage anyone to help you.
If you come across a problem, report it.
If I see any more of this style of posting, the thread will be locked immediately, and warnings issued.
Do not reply to this post on-thread.
Thanks,
DBB

andreac

Has the dog and bitch been Hip scored? Tested for the breed specific issues yet? Not just vet checked.

Also, the dog at 1 year old is very young. Why are using this dog anyway?

Why didnt you contact the Ikc or go on their website? All the info for the Samoyed Club is there if you really wanted to find it.

andreac

Irish Samoyed Club

Mrs N Clarke
Ballintrane House, Fenagh,Co. Carlow
Phone: 059-9148674
E-Mail: carlowdisk9club@iol.ie

slookie

Rang the IKC and they told me all the relevant steps had been taken. They said once the dog is 7 months old they can be bred from. Only going by what they said. I'm using this dog because he is fine and strong and healthy. I know the owner and he is a house dog and well looked after and has all checks done.

andreac

If neither you or the stud dog owner is experienced then you shouldnt be doing it. You need to go to an experienced breeder/stud dog who will know exactly what to do. Not just some dog thats down the road. Breeding should really be left to the experts or at least use a dog thats experienced and a stud dog owner thats experienced.

No, you absolutely cannot leave your dog out when shes been mated. They will still want to be mated and can be mated with any other dog.

You need to keep her secure and away from any other male dogs until her heat is completely finished.

I highly suggest you bringing your dog to the vet to get Progesterone tested. This shows exactly when she is going to Ovulate and the best time that she will be ready to be mated. All bitches Ovulate at different times of their season so you cant take for granted that she will be ready on day 10/12/14 etc as some go early or late in their seasons.

andreac

Vet checked is not enough. The must be tested for breed specific issues, eg Hip scored etc. If you arent prepared to do this then you shouldnt be breeding.

slookie

That's all I need to know...I'll ask the vet and see what days he says...probably days 12-14. And keep her away from dogs for 3 weeks. Then, hopefully have lovely pups in 9 weeks!

andreac

Yeah, if only it was that easy :rolleyes:

If thats all you think it is and thats involved you are in for a very big surprise.

If you want to take one piece of advice from me then i suggest you get this book, "The book of the bitch".

borderlinemeath

I'll echo what AndreaC says, vet checked isn't enough unfortunately. Breed specific health checks for inherited genetic condtions need to be carried out on both the sire and the bitch, sammies can suffer from hip dysplasia and that needs xrays to determine hip scores. And a one year old dog is quite young to be covering a bitch, even though she's the perfect age.

I would be very wary of leaving them in a run just to get the job done. Dogs tied can be very dangerous and they can be easily injured, particularly as they are both inexperienced. Also if another dog got a whiff of her in heat who knows what they would do to get at her. *

It's also not just as simple as 9 weeks and then cute puppies arrive. The bitch will need vet checking throughout the 9 weeks, scans to estimate the amount of pups and to ensure all is ok.

You'll need a high quality food to feed the bitch while she's in pup, and when she's lactating, what are you currently feeding her now?

A whelping box, a heat lamp, plenty of newspapers, towels, standby supply of puppy milk and bottles in case any of the pups can't latch on, round the clock cover to make sure that all pups are feeding or that she hasn't rolled over and killed any of them. Your vet on standby in case she needs assistance, or worst case scenario, surgical intervention - ie a C-section, in which case you will be bottle feeding all pups round the clock. You need to make sure your vet has adequate out of hours cover - your best to go with a small animal practice rather than a general vet that could be out on a farm call out for hours precisely when you need them.

And remember that your dog might just choose to give birth in your bed, on your best rug, in the corner of the spare room, rather than the place you want her to whelp, to move her will stress her out, you have to just go with what she needs to do.

The following 9 weeks will also be tough work, when the pups are old enough to get out of the whelping box you will find there'll be pee and poo everywhere! The mother should be teaching them to not go in their bed but in another part of the room. The smell can be pretty overwhelming too.

Depending on the amount of pups (you could end up with a dozen or so) they'll all need to be wormed, vaccinated, microchipped, IKC registered (assuming both sire and bitch are too) and all good breeders prepare puppy packs and contracts for prospective owners, including the return of the pup in the event that the new owners don't work out. Without health testing there's a chance some pups might get inherited diseases and new owners will return pups to the breeder because of this also.

Where do you intend on selling the pups? Have you a list of prospective buyers lined up?

There's probably loads more, but it's a very stressful experience, not for the faint hearted, nor is it a profitable venture when done properly.

* I was speaking only yesterday to an owner of a westie/golden retriever cross. I jokingly said, I presume the retriever was the mother, but no the WESTIE :eek: was the mother, the GR broke into her run when she was in heat:(.

ShaShaBear

borderlinemeath wrote: »

* I was speaking only yesterday to an owner of a westie/golden retriever cross. I jokingly said, I presume the retriever was the mother, but no the WESTIE :eek: was the mother, the GR broke into her run when she was in heat:(.

My cousin took her Shih Tzu to be serviced for the first time 10 weeks ago, by another IKC registered Shih Tzu across the road. Neither dogs had anything to their names but that scrap of paper and up-to-date vaccinations :rolleyes:

She was on lockdown in the house, only allowed out the fully enclosed back yard surrounded with 8ft fencing for a few minutes at a time to do her business.

Her 3 Jack Russell pups are quite adorable though

slookie

Thanks for all the replies..thanks to lorebringer for the pm and answered all my questions and told me everything I need to know.

cocker5

borderlinemeath wrote: »

I'll echo what AndreaC says, vet checked isn't enough unfortunately. Breed specific health checks for inherited genetic condtions need to be carried out on both the sire and the bitch, sammies can suffer from hip dysplasia and that needs xrays to determine hip scores. And a one year old dog is quite young to be covering a bitch, even though she's the perfect age.

I would be very wary of leaving them in a run just to get the job done. Dogs tied can be very dangerous and they can be easily injured, particularly as they are both inexperienced. Also if another dog got a whiff of her in heat who knows what they would do to get at her. *

It's also not just as simple as 9 weeks and then cute puppies arrive. The bitch will need vet checking throughout the 9 weeks, scans to estimate the amount of pups and to ensure all is ok.

You'll need a high quality food to feed the bitch while she's in pup, and when she's lactating, what are you currently feeding her now?

A whelping box, a heat lamp, plenty of newspapers, towels, standby supply of puppy milk and bottles in case any of the pups can't latch on, round the clock cover to make sure that all pups are feeding or that she hasn't rolled over and killed any of them. Your vet on standby in case she needs assistance, or worst case scenario, surgical intervention - ie a C-section, in which case you will be bottle feeding all pups round the clock. You need to make sure your vet has adequate out of hours cover - your best to go with a small animal practice rather than a general vet that could be out on a farm call out for hours precisely when you need them.

And remember that your dog might just choose to give birth in your bed, on your best rug, in the corner of the spare room, rather than the place you want her to whelp, to move her will stress her out, you have to just go with what she needs to do.

The following 9 weeks will also be tough work, when the pups are old enough to get out of the whelping box you will find there'll be pee and poo everywhere! The mother should be teaching them to not go in their bed but in another part of the room. The smell can be pretty overwhelming too.

Depending on the amount of pups (you could end up with a dozen or so) they'll all need to be wormed, vaccinated, microchipped, IKC registered (assuming both sire and bitch are too) and all good breeders prepare puppy packs and contracts for prospective owners, including the return of the pup in the event that the new owners don't work out. Without health testing there's a chance some pups might get inherited diseases and new owners will return pups to the breeder because of this also.

Where do you intend on selling the pups? Have you a list of prospective buyers lined up?

There's probably loads more, but it's a very stressful experience, not for the faint hearted, nor is it a profitable venture when done properly.

* I was speaking only yesterday to an owner of a westie/golden retriever cross. I jokingly said, I presume the retriever was the mother, but no the WESTIE :eek: was the mother, the GR broke into her run when she was in heat:(.

I really cannot add anymore than whats already been said above, only to say please reconsider, the last thing rescue centres, pounds and Ireland in general needs is another backyard breeder.

Not trying to be harsh - but the fact is if you proceed thats exactly what you will be. Think of the puppies... long term....where will they end up? in a year, two years down the road? 50% will probably end up in the pound / rescue centres.. so please be a responsible dog owner, dont breed our dog for the fun of it or nice idea ....(or for financial gain) and dont add your name to the backyard breeder list. Think twice is all I can say.

Dogs should remain family pets (no breeding) and breeding should be left to people who have experience and who are responsible breeders... no backyard / recreational breeders, its not fair on your dog or the pups.

Oppss... my high horse may have gotten loose from his stable this morning...



:rolleyes:

slookie

Im keeping one pup myself, and I have 5 other family/friends in various locations that want one too. I know these people, trust them and they have experience with dogs. If people didn't breed dogs, would they not become extinct?? There seems to be 2 groups of people here....the down to earth people and the high horse people that see the world through rose tinted glasses. I know which side I'm on! <snip>

Knine

Do not attempt to leave two maiden dogs together to mate. You are risking serious injury to one or both dogs.

I'm not sure if it has been mentioned or not but you should be bringing the bitch to the dog, not the other way around. This is particularly true for a 1 year old dog.

From your initial post it seems you have no clue what you are doing so for the dogs sake you should get hold of a copy of 'Book of the Bitch' It will have loads of useful info for you.

borderlinemeath

slookie wrote: »

Im keeping one pup myself, and I have 5 other family/friends in various locations that want one too. I know these people, trust them and they have experience with dogs. If people didn't breed dogs, would they not become extinct?? There seems to be 2 groups of people here....the down to earth people and the high horse people that see the world through rose tinted glasses. I know which side I'm on! Btw...<snip>

Nobody is saying people shouldn't breed dogs. But people that do breed dogs should do it right. Health check for diseases, disorders. Choose the mate for your bitch based on his outstanding features, make sure they complement each other and produce the best quality pups that can improve the line rather than make it unhealthier.

But what if she has 12. Or more? It's very possible.
Did you do any health testing for Hip Dysplasia, PRA, has your female been tested as a carrier of hereditary glomerulopathy? It effects males much quicker than females, you mightn't even know she has it.

irish_goat

slookie wrote: »

If people didn't breed dogs, would they not become extinct??

No.

muddypaws

slookie wrote: »

Im keeping one pup myself, and I have 5 other family/friends in various locations that want one too. I know these people, trust them and they have experience with dogs. If people didn't breed dogs, would they not become extinct?? There seems to be 2 groups of people here....the down to earth people and the high horse people that see the world through rose tinted glasses. I know which side I'm on! <snip>

I think you'll be very surprised to realise that you are actually in the rose tinted glasses group, if that is indeed how this forum is divided. The ones posting good advice, are the people that deal with unwanted dogs on a daily basis, and those that know the dangers and the downfalls of breeding. You seem to think that all you need to do is put two dogs together, 9 weeks later you will have lovely fluffy puppies, they will go off and live long and happy lives. I wish I lived in that world.

I, and other posters are not against breeding at all, but responsible breeding, with the relevant genetic tests, not a quick health check at the vets. Puppy contracts etc, as you say, if nobody bred, then breeds would become extinct, but there is a huge difference between breeding responsibly and doing it irresponsibly.

Hopefully your bitch will deliver the litter successfully, and all pups will thrive and be healthy, but thats really only the beginning of the story, you and the stud dog owner then have a responsiblity for those pups for the rest of their lives. You will have those cute, fluffy puppies in your home for the first 8/9 weeks, you will grow attached to them, if you are a dog lover, how will you feel if, in 5 years time, you find out that one of the bitches has been moved on and is now sitting in a shed pumping out litter after litter for a puppy farmer? Or if you find out that one of the lovely dogs ended up in a pound, unwanted and was killed there, alone and scared? One of the pups that started life in your home? Its one reason why I could never breed, I would have to keep them all, as I couldn't face any of them ending their lives like that.

Another reason I could never choose to breed, is having had a few pregnant bitches through my doors in a rescue capacity. Hand rearing a litter is extremely hard work, and when they don't all make it, it is heartbreaking.

The breeder that you got her from should be your mentor, guiding you through the process, have you contacted them? And the breeder of the male dog should be mentoring that owner.

Again, please at least buy Book of the Bitch, it may save your dog's life and those of the pups.

cocker5

slookie wrote: »

Im keeping one pup myself, and I have 5 other family/friends in various locations that want one too. I know these people, trust them and they have experience with dogs. If people didn't breed dogs, would they not become extinct?? There seems to be 2 groups of people here....the down to earth people and the high horse people that see the world through rose tinted glasses. I know which side I'm on! <snip>

Rose tinted glassses? really?
I wish.

Personally I think you are the one with the rose tinted glasses.. you have 6 pups already accounted for and these will go on to have amazing lives, no one circumstances will change where they cant infact take a pup after they are born.... or where they have to move etc... or dog no longer fits in... these are all the cruel facts of life in the real world...

Your dog could have 12 pups... what about the other 6? you going to keep 7 pups yourself ? or sell them to strangers and god know where they will end up.

Thats reality - what your proposing to do is in fact backyard breeding... and in this day and age it is infact irresponsible.

think of the bigger picture... long term.... and not just cute fluffy pups.

slookie

Can a mod close or lock this thread please. Have all the info I need, thanks.

tk123

slookie wrote: »

<snip>

What are the parent's hip scores?

DBB

slookie wrote: »

Can a mod close or lock this thread please. Have all the info I need, thanks.

Given your failure to heed my request to stop casting aspersions on the users of this forum, for which you have received a red card, your request to close this thread is unnecessary, because I'd be closing it anyway.
Why? Because every time you start a thread here, you cause trouble.
If there is even a hint of your troll-tastic threads appearing here again, you will be banned from this forum.

DBB

In relation to the red card I issued to slookie earlier on, following a pm I have received from slookie, it appears I should not have issued a red card.
On foot of the pathetic, childish response they sent to me when issued with the warning, and given that when I issued the card, I had not had time to read every post, but have since seen slookie's trolling attempt to garner interest in any puppies their bitch manages to have, I have upgraded the red card to a forum ban.
Thanks,
DBB