Dublin traffic cops seize tourist bus for no tax

coylemj

This was posted on Twitter earlier this evening by @GardaTraffic I wonder was there any tourists on board at the time and if they got a refund...


DMR South Central Pearse Street Traffic Unit seized this vehicle this evening for no tax, out for some time.

Poly

Obviously the tax office wasn't on the itinerary

grimbergen

Good stuff. These services charge enough and can really slow down traffic - the least can do is pay their road tax.

monument

Moderator warning:

No speculation about the owners of the bus please.

Your post will be deleted and you are likely to get an infraction.

Terrontress

grimbergen wrote: »

Good stuff. These services charge enough and can really slow down traffic - the least can do is pay their road tax.

I'd presume that it was an admin error and when it came to light, they would have to pay the back tax.

It is a reputable company (without naming names)

I don't see what hampering their ability to trade for a day achieves.

Micky Dolenz

Terrontress wrote: »

I don't see what hampering their ability to trade for a day achieves.

You could apply that logic to any road using business (primarily) . Taxis, haulage etc.

The law is the law.

cdebru

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

You could apply that logic to any road using business (primarily) . Taxis, haulage etc.

The law is the law.

Well you would hope that the Gardai would have used their discretion first, ( and maybe they did) and not just siezed the vehicle straight away.
They have a good few buses on the road so if it is just one bus without road tax it is more than likely just a cock up and not an attempt to defraud the state.
I would hope the gardai would have given the company an opportunity to correct the problem before siezing the vehicle. After all they are high profile vehicles easy to check them again after a week or so to see if the issue has been corrected, and maybe that is what happened in which case fair play to the gardai.

corktina

Why would you hope that? It's quite clear that if the tax is out more than 2 months the vehicle can be seized and it's also the owner/drivers responsibility to check out the vehicle regularly, so it's not as if it's an oversight (with the caveat that the disc may have been stolen...although still it would be an offense not to display)

devnull

I'd be careful to speculate on this because there may or may not be more to it than a stright forward case of not paying tax.

I was going to ask if it possibly could be that the tax disc was not being displayed, rather than it actually wasn't taxed, but the fact that it's said it was out for some time kinda says that was not the case.

corktina

that's why I mentioned the possibility (on a public vehicle) that the disc may have been stolen

cdebru

corktina wrote: »

Why would you hope that? It's quite clear that if the tax is out more than 2 months the vehicle can be seized and it's also the owner/drivers responsibility to check out the vehicle regularly, so it's not as if it's an oversight (with the caveat that the disc may have been stolen...although still it would be an offense not to display)

Why ? Because it is a business trying to make money and keep people in work, they have reasonable size fleet, they are very highly visible around the city so I would hope that if it was an oversight, that they would use their discretion and allow them to get their affairs in order.

The law says it can be siezed not it must be siezed which means the Gardai have discretion, depending on the circumstances. Given the company it would be reasonable to assume it was an oversight and allow some discretion.

billie1b

cdebru wrote: »

Why ? Because it is a business trying to make money and keep people in work, they have reasonable size fleet, they are very highly visible around the city so I would hope that if it was an oversight, that they would use their discretion and allow them to get their affairs in order.

The law says it can be siezed not it must be siezed which means the Gardai have discretion, depending on the circumstances. Given the company it would be reasonable to assume it was an oversight and allow some discretion.

Maybe they used their discretion before and gave them a chance to get tax up to date, and they caught the bus without tax again after using discretion. Nobody knows exactly what happened, all we know is the vehicle was seized due to non compliance of the road traffic act.

ceannair06

Maybe the country wouldnt be in such a state if there was less "discretion" and more "punishment".

Greenmachine

Why no reg on display. Are the photos also censored on the garda website.

LXFlyer

Yes - that's what's on the Garda twitter feed.

corktina

cdebru wrote: »

Why ? Because it is a business trying to make money and keep people in work, they have reasonable size fleet, they are very highly visible around the city so I would hope that if it was an oversight, that they would use their discretion and allow them to get their affairs in order.

The law says it can be siezed not it must be siezed which means the Gardai have discretion, depending on the circumstances. Given the company it would be reasonable to assume it was an oversight and allow some discretion.

having no tax for a day or two is one thing, but several months isn't on. Discretion not appropriate just because it's a business, the same rules apply to them as do me and I always tax my vehicles.

Victor

Folks, no speculation please. Stick to the facts. We don't know the vehicle operator and we don't know the background to the alleged offence.

Moderator

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Greenmachine wrote: »

Why no reg on display. Are the photos also censored on the garda website.

This is the Garda tweet: https://twitter.com/GardaTraffic/status/466652706451357696/photo/1

billie1b

@greenmachine, just checked, the picture is the same on the Garda twitter account

Greenmachine

lxflyer wrote: »

Yes - that's what's on the Garda twitter feed.

Weird surely if the case goes to court. The press will be free to publish who it. Even non-display of the tax disc is an offense right.

billie1b

Greenmachine wrote: »

Weird surely if the case goes to court. The press will be free to publish who it. Even non-display of the tax disc is an offense right.

Yeah it is strange, I just looked through a few others and any car or vehicle on the feed have their number plate or distinctive marks covered over

cdebru

billie1b wrote: »

Maybe they used their discretion before and gave them a chance to get tax up to date, and they caught the bus without tax again after using discretion. Nobody knows exactly what happened, all we know is the vehicle was seized due to non compliance of the road traffic act.

Exactly which is what I said in the first post, if the Gardai used their discretion then fair play to them, the point was that I hoped they had used their discretion given that it is a fairly reputable company I doubt it was a deliberate attempt to avoid motor tax.

coylemj

billie1b wrote: »

@greenmachine, just checked, the picture is the same on the Garda twitter account

I'm the OP, I didn't lift the photo or take one of my own, I linked direct to the photo on Twitter so they are one and the same thing.

The Gardai applied the digital fig leafs to conceal the reg. no. and the operator's name.

cdebru

Greenmachine wrote: »

Weird surely if the case goes to court. The press will be free to publish who it. Even non-display of the tax disc is an offense right.

Yes but they haven't been to court yet so they haven't been convicted of commiting any offence as of yet. An unedited picture would impinge on both the right to privacy and the right to be presumed innocent.

coylemj

cdebru wrote: »

Yes but they haven't been to court yet so they haven't been convicted of commiting any offence as of yet. An unedited picture would impinge on both the right to privacy and the right to be presumed innocent.

I accept your point about the presumption of innocence but you can hardly invoke a 'right to privacy' if you park a large bright red double-decker bus in a public place with your company name splashed over it and no valid tax disc on the windscreen!

Not saying that this particular bus did or did not have valid tax but if I parked my car in a disabled spot on a public street (I don't have a blue sticker) and someone posted a photo of it on boards, does anyone seriously think I could invoke a 'right to privacy'? There are hundreds of photos in old threads on boards of people who parked where they shouldn't and the registration numbers are clearly visible in most cases.

cdebru

coylemj wrote: »

I accept your point about the presumption of innocence but you can hardly invoke a 'right to privacy' if you park a large bright red double-decker bus in a public place with your company name splashed over it and no valid tax disc on the windscreen!

Not saying that this particular bus did or did not have valid tax but if I parked my car in a disabled spot on a public street (I don't have a blue sticker) and someone posted a photo of it on boards, does anyone seriously think I could invoke a 'rig Iht to privacy'? There are hundreds of photos in old threads on boards of people who parked where they shouldn't and the registration numbers are clearly visible in most cases.

If I posted a picture of your car you would probably be pissing against the wind complaining if the Gardai did it that would be a different matter I suspect.

cdebru

corktina wrote: »

having no tax for a day or two is one thing, but several months isn't on. Discretion not appropriate just because it's a business, the same rules apply to them as do me and I always tax my vehicles.

And ordinary people get discretion shown all the time, I have had it myself. The point was they are a fairly reputable company, I doubt very much it was an attempt to dodge tax, and that more than likely it was an oversight in such circumstances a small amount of time to get things in order would be appropriate. And as said maybe they had that we just don't know.

corktina

Hard to see why the Gards would go to the trouble of publicising the seizure if it wasn't really a cut and dried case.

Marhay70

I remember seeing a photo posted (wish I could.find it) of a motorcycle Garda operating.a checkpoint and the tax on his bike was weeks out of date, also Bertie Ahern being driven out.of the Dail and the tax on the Merc was out.
Obviously, Garda discretion depends on who.you are.

coylemj

Marhay70 wrote: »

I remember seeing a photo posted (wish I could.find it) of a motorcycle Garda operating.a checkpoint and the tax on his bike was weeks out of date, also Bertie Ahern being driven out.of the Dail and the tax on the Merc was out.
Obviously, Garda discretion depends on who.you are.

Both of those vehicles were 'exempt' from the requirement to pay for the discs (though they are legally obliged to display a current disc) so it's a procedural issue not involving the loss of revenue due to the state.

Marhay70

coylemj wrote: »

Both of those vehicles were 'exempt' from the requirement to pay for the discs (though they are legally obliged to display a current disc) so it's a procedural issue not involving the loss of revenue due to the state.

That's as may be, but as you say there is a requirement for all vehicles to display a valid tax disc and it is a separate offence not to do so. It strikes me as nothing short of hypocrisy that that Garda could be handing out fines for non display to the general public, while committing an offence himself.

Going Forward

Greenmachine wrote: »

Weird surely if the case goes to court. The press will be free to publish who it. Even non-display of the tax disc is an offense right.

True, but I don't see any problem with anyone publishing a photo of what to most people amounts to nothing more than a random red bus with no indentifiable features or markings?

cdebru

osheen wrote: »

<snip>

I think we should stick to what the Gardai tweeted which was no tax, rather than veer off into speculating that the company had committed numerous other offences.

Cookie_Monster

Going Forward wrote: »

True, but I don't see any problem with anyone publishing a photo of what to most people amounts to nothing more than a random red bus with no indentifiable features or markings?

it's still perfectly obvious who the company is, why bother blanking it?

That's like blanking the reg and logo of a Dublin Bus and expecting people not to recognise it.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

markpb

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

The bus has already been seized, the tax will be paid, a fine will be paid and the bus will be returned. The owner has already been found guilty so there'll be no court case.

I'd imagine the Gardai posted the picture the way they did to make a point about tax evasion, not to target the specific owner. They do the same when they post pictures of private vehicles which are stopped for other reasons.

Truckermal

The driver of that bus is a professional driver and like all drivers he/she is required to carry out a written vehicle check list every day and one of the things on this list is the discs in the windscreen so the company knew well the bus was not taxed.

cdebru

Truckermal wrote: »

The driver of that bus is a professional driver and like all drivers he/she is required to carry out a written vehicle check list every day and one of the things on this list is the discs in the windscreen so the company knew well the bus was not taxed.

Checking the tax discs is not on all operators first use check list. It is certainly not on Dublin bus first use check list.

Truckermal

cdebru wrote: »

Checking the tax discs is not on all operators first use check list. It is certainly not on Dublin bus first use check list.

Well it should be in accordance to what the RSA stipulate.

Muahahaha

How much is it for taxing a bus for the year ?

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Muahahaha

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Wow pretty cheap compared to taxing a 2.0 car which is the best part of €900 these days iirc

billie1b

Muahahaha wrote: »

Wow pretty cheap compared to taxing a 2.0 car which is the best part of €900 these days iirc

I know, its crazy, you'd think it'd more expensive for the buses and trucks and so on that are on the road everyday for the guts of 16/18 hours, and they can claim back expenses on it. But no, they tax the fück out of private vehicles instead.

bigroad

billie1b wrote: »

I know, its crazy, you'd think it'd more expensive for the buses and trucks and so on that are on the road everyday for the guts of 16/18 hours, and they can claim back expenses on it. But no, they tax the fück out of private vehicles instead.

Psv vehicles like taxi s and buses are cheap to tax .Trucks are not.

audi12

why would you pay tax when they dont fix the roads

foggy_lad

billie1b wrote: »

I know, its crazy, you'd think it'd more expensive for the buses and trucks and so on that are on the road everyday for the guts of 16/18 hours, and they can claim back expenses on it. But no, they tax the fück out of private vehicles instead.

how much is insurance for a double deck open top tourist bus for a year?

Going Forward

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

it's still perfectly obvious who the company is, why bother blanking it?

That's like blanking the reg and logo of a Dublin Bus and expecting people not to recognise it.

Sorry, but it's not obvious to me, for one.

To bus enthusiasts it quite possibly is. Ask most people outside the pale who owns that bus and they won't have a clue.

Going Forward

cdebru wrote: »

I think we should stick to what the Gardai tweeted which was no tax, rather than veer off into speculating that the company had committed numerous other offences.

I find the whole idea of Gardai tweeting anything like this a bit odd for some reason

Why did they do it, a juvenile show of power, like a warning to other bus operators, or potential tourists in the capital not to patronize untaxed buses?

Do they tweet pictures of untaxed cars?

Is every alleged offence now tweetable? Its all a bit UK Motorway Cops TV stuff to me.

billie1b

foggy_lad wrote: »

how much is insurance for a double deck open top tourist bus for a year?

It would be a company policy so I have no clue

corktina

audi12 wrote: »

why would you pay tax when they dont fix the roads

tell him someone...

Victor

audi12 wrote: »

why would you pay tax when they dont fix the roads

Trolling not welcome

Moderator

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If you want a particular problem fixed, report it. Councils don't magically know when a pothole forms.

billie1b wrote: »

I know, its crazy, you'd think it'd more expensive for the buses and trucks and so on that are on the road everyday for the guts of 16/18 hours, and they can claim back expenses on it. But no, they tax the fück out of private vehicles instead.

Do you think, maybe, they are trying to promote the delivery of goods and services and discourage the moving around of empty car seats?

Muahahaha

Going Forward wrote: »

I find the whole idea of Gardai tweeting anything like this a bit odd for some reason

Why did they do it, a juvenile show of power, like a warning to other bus operators, or potential tourists in the capital not to patronize untaxed buses?

Do they tweet pictures of untaxed cars?

Is every alleged offence now tweetable? Its all a bit UK Motorway Cops TV stuff to me.

I can see your point, it is all a bit TV reality show. But I think the primary purpose is to show other law breakers that they are actively prosecuting these sorts of offences. By publicising it it's likely people who are committing the same offence will think twice about driving with no tax.

AFAIK there is a pretty strong theory in criminal psychology that says when people think of whether or not they'll commit an offense the penalty for that offense rarely forms part of their reasoning- the primary reasoning on it is whether or not they think they will get away with it with committing the crime. If they think they will then the chances of them following through on it go up dramatically. So what the Gardai are doing here (quite cleverly IMO) is using Facebook and Twitter to send a message out to people that if they dodge road tax there's a chance they'll have their vehicle seized. Sending that message out will then deter other road tax evaders except for the ones who are either very risk adverse or just don't care. The publicity from this one offense is used to deter other potential offenders, it's smart policing IMO.

I just wish we had smarter policing in other areas like bike thefts for instance. Bike thieves seem to have carte Blanche across the city these days, the Gardai don't seem to pursue this type of crime in any serious manner and therefore they've send a signal to criminals that it's unlikely you'll get caught doing it so then more criminals do it and the vicious cycle intensifies.