Rationalisation

davidlacey

Rationalisation is currently underway at Limerick with from what I am hearing the pulling up of all sidings, only leaving two. Is this development short sided in your view or very necessary considering IEs plight at the moment when they need to be saving and not spending

Hilly Bill

Why are they being pulled up?

davidlacey

I have no idea, rumours are LUAS have bought the rails, personally I think again its a short sighted move, I think IE should consolidate what they have...

davidlacey

Its on the facebook page irish railways past and present, a person working for dixons who pull the rails up are there on nights all week

davidlacey

going to be a bare network very soon...

dowlingm

If Limerick yard is rationalized, does this at least mean an increase in speeds between Colbert and Limerick Check?

corktina

the tracks no doubt are being removed to allow the re-development....it's posted elsewhere

relaxed

dowlingm wrote: »

If Limerick yard is rationalized, does this at least mean an increase in speeds between Colbert and Limerick Check?

Last time I travelled in from Galway the passage through limerick yards was laboured, given this and the padding in place, along with pointless stops in craughwell and ardrahan, the train between limerick and galway should be able to compete with the bus on travel time, and with the reduced fares Compete on price as well.

It's just a pity the line closed half the year.

corktina

ah come on, a slow start from Limerick and two stops can't cost more than about three minutes total;

relaxed

corktina wrote: »

ah come on, a slow start from Limerick and two stops can't cost more than about three minutes total;

it's more than 3 anyway. Limerick Ennis was 30 minutes years ago afaik, now its 37.

There's also padding of the timetable, i once left galway late and still arrived early.

Overall time as it stands is 1.52, surely 1.30 is doable?

Edit; doable without a major investment.

corktina

relaxed wrote: »

it's more than 3 anyway. Limerick Ennis was 30 minutes years ago afaik, now its 37.

There's also padding of the timetable, i once left galway late and still arrived early.

Overall time as it stands is 1.52, surely 1.30 is doable?

Edit; doable without a major investment.

if it was, wouldn't they have done it? To knock almost 25% of the timing would cost hundreds of millions.
You said it yourself...there is padding in the timetable, you can effect a saving on paper here, but the trains will still run as now.So any speeding up would merely be a paper gain.

dowlingm

Limerick-Ennis has a nominal line speed of 50mph, Ennis-Athenry 80mph. Obviously there are lots of restrictions to the latter and some to the former (pages 76-80 of the 2015 Network Statement).

I think the aspiration should be that all active IE rail lines outside of urban areas should be designed such that 50pc or more of the track can sustain 75mph passenger operation. When too expensive to fix PSRs and stops are taken into account that basically means 50mph average or thereabouts. In the case of Ennis-Limerick though I think flood fixes are higher priority given the notion that we shouldn't drop a bunch of money on a track and then see it held out of service for weeks at a time.

The other issue with Limerick-Galway which extends end to end time is the need to meet at loops. Ideally loops would be installed at Sixmilebridge and Oranmore even if it meant dropping stops in non-peak direction services to avoid the expense of a second platform and accompanying access works.

corktina

you wouldn't necessarily need a second platform, you could position the loop off the platform with the one train running forward into it after calling to the platform to cross a second train. A small time penalty involved but it would maintain the stop. Having said that, a couple of stops could be eliminated without much effect on traffic figures.

end of the road

so more CIE destruction, another bunch of sidings gone for what? maybe another shopping centre or appartment block that nobody wants? or something else? short sighted nonsense that can't be undone

corktina

Bus Station isn't it? Or am I missing something?

relaxed

corktina wrote: »

if it was, wouldn't they have done it? To knock almost 25% of the timing would cost hundreds of millions.
You said it yourself...there is padding in the timetable, you can effect a saving on paper here, but the trains will still run as now.So any speeding up would merely be a paper gain.

I believe the allowance is 2 minutes per stop per station, so ditch 4 stops on some trains each day and you have 8 minutes, theres a couple of minutes wasted drifting through Limerick, which might be getting sorted, theres waiting time in Ennis and general padding, which I believe to be 10 minutes, as that's about what a delayed train made up once that I was on.

So theres your 20 minutes, people will see a 1hr 32minute train for €14 and think that looks attractive.

Not sure where the hundreds of millions come in.

Hilly Bill

end of the road wrote: »

so more CIE destruction, another bunch of sidings gone for what? maybe another shopping centre or appartment block that nobody wants? or something else? short sighted nonsense that can't be undone

Are they being used? should they be kept just for the enthusiasts?

corktina

relaxed wrote: »

I believe the allowance is 2 minutes per stop per station, so ditch 4 stops on some trains each day and you have 8 minutes, theres a couple of minutes wasted drifting through Limerick, which might be getting sorted, theres waiting time in Ennis and general padding, which I believe to be 10 minutes, as that's about what a delayed train made up once that I was on.

So theres your 20 minutes, people will see a 1hr 32minute train for €14 and think that looks attractive.

Not sure where the hundreds of millions come in.

you can't ditch 4 stops.
You have to stop at Oranmore because it is a P&R and makes no sense not to stop.
You have to stop at Athenry, no other choice...
Ardrahan, Craughwell....fair enough ditch them.....
Gort? don't think so
Ennis Sixmilebridge?......nah....

basically you are massaging the figures to fit your theory.

Even if you could do all this, I bet you wouldn't get the passengers back off the coach and you certainly wont get them out of their cars

end of the road

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Are they being used? should they be kept just for the enthusiasts?

no, they should be kept because they are pieces of infrastructure that could be needed again, and once removed they can't be put down again unless the land is kept clear, which it probably won't be

end of the road

corktina wrote: »

you can't ditch 4 stops.
You have to stop at Oranmore because it is a P&R and makes no sense not to stop.
You have to stop at Athenry, no other choice...
Ardrahan, Craughwell....fair enough ditch them.....
Gort? don't think so
Ennis Sixmilebridge?......nah....

basically you are massaging the figures to fit your theory.

Even if you could do all this, I bet you wouldn't get the passengers back off the coach and you certainly wont get them out of their cars

those who use the coach are probably very few anyway, car is king round there, still though if the line had been built differently it could have been an attractive proposition, but we'l never know now

davidlacey

end of the road wrote: »

no, they should be kept because they are pieces of infrastructure that could be needed again, and once removed they can't be put down again unless the land is kept clear, which it probably won't be

have to agree with end of the road here just take the harcourt st line for example removed and was not able to be regenerated into its FULL old form due to land not being kept clear in shankhill. Once these sidings are gone they are gone, sure who needs sidings for possible railfreight anyway, thats dead and buried anyway...

davidlacey

end of the road wrote: »

no, they should be kept because they are pieces of infrastructure that could be needed again, and once removed they can't be put down again unless the land is kept clear, which it probably won't be

have to agree with end of the road here just take the harcourt st line for example removed and was not able to be regenerated into its FULL old form due to land not being kept clear in shankhill. Once these sidings are gone they are gone, sure who needs sidings for possible railfreight anyway, thats dead and buried anyway...

cgcsb

It seems positively ridiculous that a railway built in 2009 was built to such poor standard. Surely it shouldve been designed with modern speed requirements in mind.

end of the road

davidlacey wrote: »

have to agree with end of the road here just take the harcourt st line for example removed and was not able to be regenerated into its FULL old form due to land not being kept clear in shankhill. Once these sidings are gone they are gone, sure who needs sidings for possible railfreight anyway, thats dead and buried anyway...

or the huge network that was the west cork network, completely ripped up, surely some of it was viable for retention, wasn't it 93 miles or something? how a huge network like that could be ripped up like that is a scandel, CIE and BR should never have been able to remove lines, suspending services if needs be due to lack of usership, sure if needs be, but complete removal, vandelism, to late now though for the lot that have gone

Jamie2k9

Limerick yard isn't exactly short on sidings so I don't see the issue, time to move along.

It seems positively ridiculous that a railway built in 2009 was built to such poor standard. Surely it shouldve been designed with modern speed requirements in mind.

Unless the money was increased, what did people expect. The landscape is a major problem.

MGWR

davidlacey wrote: »

Rationalisation is currently underway at Limerick with from what I am hearing the pulling up of all sidings, only leaving two. Is this development short sided in your view or very necessary considering IEs plight at the moment when they need to be saving and not spending

The term "rationalisation" is being abused by government to (rather transparently) conceal the truth of what they are doing. Government is not a business and never can be, so this is contraction for contraction's sake and balkanisation for balkanisation's sake.

davidlacey

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Limerick yard isn't exactly short on sidings so I don't see the issue, time to move along.



Unless the money was increased, what did people expect. The landscape is a major problem.

its only the beginning, getting rid of infrastructure can and will result in further reduce of competitiveness between road and rail. I understand limerick has not been used for freight for a number of years but IE are slowly but surely shooting themselves in the foot by cutting off potential freight flows to the main network I.e north esk and cutting of an already small network into a passenger one, say a company wanted to set up in limerick yeard and the infrastructure was not in place? IE surely would not pay for this and the company would, clearly the company would see this as an unnecessary cost and would choose road over rail always

corktina

the one bit missed in a another thread (scrapping Mk3s) which is relevant here, is they chopped up some container flats at Cork. So the yards are gone and so is the rolling stock. Can people stop talking about a resurgence of rail freight now and smell the coffee?

davidlacey

corktina wrote: »

the one bit missed in a another thread (scrapping Mk3s) which is relevant here, is they chopped up some container flats at Cork. So the yards are gone and so is the rolling stock. Can people stop talking about a resurgence of rail freight now and smell the coffee?

I never mentioned a resurgence, as a matter of fact I brought up the scrapping of container flats which I imagine were scrapped because they were passed by there sell by date and not upto eu regulation. the amount of income before expenditure in the rail freight division would suggest a hobby more than a business

corktina

"people" infers more than one, so clearly I wasn't suggesting you had mentioned a resurgence (although "potential freight flows" suggests you were).

davidlacey

corktina wrote: »

"people" infers more than one, so clearly I wasn't suggesting you had mentioned a resurgence (although "potential freight flows" suggests you were).

Potential Freight flows means the possibility of, nothing more and certainly has nothing to do with any resurgence than more than a rebuilding and this is in line with IEs own 2013 annual report
"The Company is actively pursuing rail freight expansion opportunities and engaging with ports, exporters and industry to identify viable commercial rail freight solutions."

Jamie2k9

davidlacey wrote: »

its only the beginning, getting rid of infrastructure can and will result in further reduce of competitiveness between road and rail. I understand limerick has not been used for freight for a number of years but IE are slowly but surely shooting themselves in the foot by cutting off potential freight flows to the main network I.e north esk and cutting of an already small network into a passenger one, say a company wanted to set up in limerick yeard and the infrastructure was not in place? IE surely would not pay for this and the company would, clearly the company would see this as an unnecessary cost and would choose road over rail always

They are lifting a few sidings, it's hardly one of the tracks between Cork and Dublin. There will be plenty more there in needed in future.

Freight out of Limerick is unlikely anyway and these changes wouldn't stop it.

Vanquished

A new bus station is being built on the sidings by the existing car park.

The plans for the upgrade of the station are outlined in this document.

http://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/2014_Colbert_Station_Redevelopment_-_Proposed_Design1.pdf

end of the road

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Limerick yard isn't exactly short on sidings so I don't see the issue, time to move along.

it is a very big issue as potential capacity is being removed for no good reason, when CIE stop destroying the peoples infrastructure then it will be time to move along

end of the road

corktina wrote: »

the one bit missed in a another thread (scrapping Mk3s) which is relevant here, is they chopped up some container flats at Cork. So the yards are gone and so is the rolling stock. Can people stop talking about a resurgence of rail freight now and smell the coffee?

what coffee, irish rail destroy infrastructure and wagons that would allow them to chase potential customers for freight, the passenger railway isn't going to carry irish rail alone, they have to find any type of customer they get, with trucks getting bigger and bigger and doing more damage to the roads and the roads not having the money to be maintained as much as they should then getting some of these trucks off the road where possible needs to be a priority to keep road maintenence costs down

corktina

end of the road wrote: »

it is a very big issue as potential capacity is being removed for no good reason, when CIE stop destroying the peoples infrastructure then it will be time to move along

There's a very good reason if you read the post above yours. They are building a new bus park there.

corktina

end of the road wrote: »

what coffee, irish rail destroy infrastructure and wagons that would allow them to chase potential customers for freight, the passenger railway isn't going to carry irish rail alone, they have to find any type of customer they get, with trucks getting bigger and bigger and doing more damage to the roads and the roads not having the money to be maintained as much as they should then getting some of these trucks off the road where possible needs to be a priority to keep road maintenence costs down

the more trucks, the more tax paid in to the treasury, so I'd say they pay their own way. Yes, roads have to be maintained but so do rail lines, so your arguement is hard to understand. The roads likely to be damaged by trucks are also the ones that could never be re[placed by a train.No customers have come forward in a good few years to use those sidings for freight, so it's doubtful they ever would

end of the road

corktina wrote: »

the more trucks, the more tax paid in to the treasury, so I'd say they pay their own way. Yes, roads have to be maintained but so do rail lines, so your arguement is hard to understand. The roads likely to be damaged by trucks are also the ones that could never be re[placed by a train.No customers have come forward in a good few years to use those sidings for freight, so it's doubtful they ever would

just because they haven't come forward doesn't mean they never will, removing anything that can give companies an alternative should they want it should not be acceptable

metrovick001

You are waaay off the mark Corktina. The haulage business is indirectly subsidised by the exchequer by the provision of toll free motorways.
Im not suggesting this is inappropriate but to suggest that the haulage business pays its own way is incorrect.

corktina wrote: »

the more trucks, the more tax paid in to the treasury, so I'd say they pay their own way. Yes, roads have to be maintained but so do rail lines, so your arguement is hard to understand. The roads likely to be damaged by trucks are also the ones that could never be re[placed by a train.No customers have come forward in a good few years to use those sidings for freight, so it's doubtful they ever would

davidlacey

metrovick001 wrote: »

You are waaay off the mark Corktina. The haulage business is indirectly subsidised by the exchequer by the provision of toll free motorways.
Im not suggesting this is inappropriate but to suggest that the haulage business pays its own way is incorrect.

plus is there not a fuel subsidy for haulage companies

end of the road

davidlacey wrote: »

plus is there not a fuel subsidy for haulage companies

i don't know, remove it all anyway and lets have real competition and let the trucks pay their way like every other vehicle has to

relaxed

corktina wrote: »

you can't ditch 4 stops.
You have to stop at Oranmore because it is a P&R and makes no sense not to stop.
You have to stop at Athenry, no other choice...
Ardrahan, Craughwell....fair enough ditch them.....
Gort? don't think so
Ennis Sixmilebridge?......nah....

basically you are massaging the figures to fit your theory.

Even if you could do all this, I bet you wouldn't get the passengers back off the coach and you certainly wont get them out of their cars

It's not a theory, it's 70 miles, so at 50 mph you get 1hr 24minutes journey time non stop.

Fix a few things like brain dead stops (let them stop at ardrahan and craughwell twice a day to appease the all politicians) and the slow bit out from Limerick and you are losing in on 1.40 without any effort.

corktina

Athenry will be interesting non stop...and you forget that most journeys are to get people into and out of Galway and Limerick rather than taking people between them, so the non stop trains will be more than half empty compared to now.

As far as I know there is no fuel subsidy and VAT and PRSI and Income Tax paid into the Government are all sizable amounts.

Some motorways are toll free, but every motorist benefits from that and the Motor Tax on a Truck is quite substantial.

No amount of train-spotter dreaming will make lines such as this viable. The passenger figures prove it. I'd much rather the money that would need to be spent speeding up this line, plus the loss it makes , be spent on other far more important lines.

corktina

end of the road wrote: »

i don't know, remove it all anyway and lets have real competition and let the trucks pay their way like every other vehicle has to

..and remove the Irish Rail subsidy then, make them charge a break-even price for their services. (bye bye Rail if that were to happen)

davidlacey

corktina wrote: »

..and remove the Irish Rail subsidy then, make them charge a break-even price for their services. (bye bye Rail if that were to happen)

the irish rail subsidy does not cover freight

davidlacey

corktina wrote: »

..and remove the Irish Rail subsidy then, make them charge a break-even price for their services. (bye bye Rail if that were to happen)

the irish rail subsidy does not cover freight

Losty Dublin

cgcsb wrote: »

It seems positively ridiculous that a railway built in 2009 was built to such poor standard. Surely it shouldve been designed with modern speed requirements in mind.

Maybe you should ask the shareholders why; they are the ones who call the shots and who made the investment.

corktina

davidlacey wrote: »

the irish rail subsidy does not cover freight

well it lost 13 million last year...either that is covered by Government subsidy or it is cross-subsidised by the rest of the network (which I believe is illegal)

There's some amazing stuff coming out now..... suggesting dropping 4 stops between Galway and Limerick.....non stop journeys, nothwithstanding a reversal at Athenry.... Rail Freight is not subsidised. Somewhat lacking in credibility really.

davidlacey

corktina wrote: »

well it lost 13 million last year...either that is covered by Government subsidy or it is cross-subsidised by the rest of the network (which I believe is illegal)

There's some amazing stuff coming out now..... suggesting dropping 4 stops between Galway and Limerick.....non stop journeys, nothwithstanding a reversal at Athenry.... Rail Freight is not subsidised. Somewhat lacking in credibility really.

where is the €13 million coming from is that the Irish rail figure from the 2013 report because if it is rail freight you are refering to it lost 1.638 million last year compared to 1.750 million loss last year

relaxed

corktina wrote: »

well it lost 13 million last year...either that is covered by Government subsidy or it is cross-subsidised by the rest of the network (which I believe is illegal)

There's some amazing stuff coming out now..... suggesting dropping 4 stops between Galway and Limerick.....non stop journeys, nothwithstanding a reversal at Athenry.... Rail Freight is not subsidised. Somewhat lacking in credibility really.

What's amazing about not stopping at ardrahan and craughwell?

We all know there is a reversal required at athenry, what amazes you about that?

You should get a job at Irish rail, you would fit right in if it negativity you seek.

You still haven't explained how culling some stops and reducing padding will cost hundreds of millions to reduce journey times.

corktina

davidlacey wrote: »

where is the €13 million coming from is that the Irish rail figure from the 2013 report because if it is rail freight you are refering to it lost 1.638 million last year compared to 1.750 million loss last year

typo