The Irish are obsessed with buying a house

Reekwind

According to these 2011 numbers Ireland ranks as 17 out of the 27 European countries surveyed for rates of home ownership. That is, the percentage of home owners is higher in Romania, Lithuania, Slovakia, Hungary, Bulgaria, Norway, Estonia, Spain, Latvia, Poland, Czech Republic, Greece, Portugal, Finland, Italy and Belgium. We're also just above Sweden, the UK, Denmark and the Netherlands in the rankings.

Yet we somehow hold this "obsession" up as yet more evidence that we're a backwards nation lagging well behind our more sophisticated European neighbours. If there was a table for national self-loathing then I'm pretty sure we'd top that one.

horsesfc88 wrote: »

Not really look at the stats again

You do realize we have a small population Einstein ?

What does that have to do with anything? Home ownership rates are expressed as a percentage figure.

zom

The_Morrigan wrote: »

OP if you can't engage with the other posters in a civilised tone I will close your thread.

This is your one and only warning.

Actually topic is quite interesting and there is no point to closing it because OP behaviour. Some people just mislead it as discussion about renting.

But there is quite good question why Irish don't like living in apartments?? I met recently few people who declared as apartment enemies and they all were bit posh South Dubliners which may be important at that point. There is only few residential block estates in Dublin South compare to North Dublin where it is quite popular. So probably it is status and snobism issue?

meeeeh

iusedtoknow wrote: »

I'm 30, and instead of racing to get a 3 bed semi in a suburb outside cork/dublin/galway - i've chosen to leave, have always rented and am investing my cash in different ways. Not having property has freed up our cash no ends, and we get good returns on our financial investments. It has also allowed us to follow our career opportunities and not worry about paying a mortgage.

Different things suit different people. There is little point renting tne property for 30 years if the mortgage on identical property down the road is cheaper. And there is no point buying if you can't be sure to stay in the same place for longer. What to do depends on people's needs and their means. Yes the property obsession is not good but for some of us makes perfect sense to buy or build.

The_Morrigan

zom wrote: »

Actually topic is quite interesting and there is no point to closing it because OP behaviour. Some people just mislead it as discussion about renting.

But there is quite good question why Irish don't like living in apartments?? I met recently few people who declared as apartment enemies and they all were bit posh South Dubliners which may be important at that point. There is only few residential block estates in Dublin South compare to North Dublin where it is quite popular. So probably it is status and snobism issue?

Don't argue a mod instruction on thread, it is against the charter.

Cookie_Monster

Part of the problem I imagine is the mess of mgt companies, joint ownership and fees that come with apartments and some estate versus a house.
I for one have no interest paying management fees or block insurance for something I don't actually own.

The_Conductor

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Dublin is very sparcely populated compared to other European cities, there is enough empty land to build the same number of houses again complete with gardens within the county of Dublin. Land prices are not in line with what they actually should be, it's all speculation, council planning and general rip off of the house buyer at every opportunity.

Dublin *is* very sparsely populated, compared to other European cities- however, this does not equate with their being lots of empty land, and the propensity to built a similar number of houses that currently exist, over again.

Land (and other assets) have speculative prices, based on current and perceived future supply and demand. The idea is not to rip off buyers- its simply to maximise asset prices. If you imagine its to rip off buyers- you could similarly say that mortgage holders who refuse to surrender tracker mortgages are ripping off banks- its the same concept.

The issue in Dublin is low density housing units. The solution- is not to create more and more standalone houses- its to build upwards- however, in a manner that high density units receive appropriate access to facilities and amenities in their immediate vicinities.

kippy

horsesfc88 wrote: »

In Every other country in the world people have no problems living in apartments(often cheaper and in locations close to amenities ) but the Irish are obsessed with houses and will often pay most of their wages to live in one?

Why?

I'd much rather buy a nice apartment that i can easily afford and still have most my money left over at the end of the month to enjoy,travel etc than try keep up with the jones's

Why the obsession with houses ?

Apartments are the worst possible space to live in long term. Especially the standards of apartment in this country and especially if you ever intend having a family.

Dandelion6

As others have noted it's very common in other countries for families to be raised in apartments in the city. There is a cultural bias here against apartment-living which you just don't find as much in other places. I think part of it is a famine hangover, people starved because they didn't own their own land, Irish mindset therefore became that you simply had to own your own land. Then it just became so normalised for people to own houses that owning an apartment instead just wasn't conceivable. Developers responded to this by only building apartments suitable for short-term or single living, reinforcing the cycle.

Shame because there are really nice apartment complexes in other countries and I would love to live in a similar one here but they just don't exist (and I say that as someone who lives in one of the nicer ones in Dublin).

drumswan

kippy wrote: »

Apartments are the worst possible space to live in long term.

What nonsense. Where I lived in in France everyone lives in apartments, even people with families. Nothing terrible happens.

kippy

drumswan wrote: »

What nonsense. Where I lived in in France everyone lives in apartments, even people with families. Nothing terrible happens.

So you'd prefer an apartment over a house no matter what the circumstances?

drumswan

kippy wrote: »

So you'd prefer an apartment over a house no matter what the circumstances?

Yes. Unless they start building 3 bed semis with gardens in Dublin 2 and renting them out for 1200 quid. Perhaps they could build them floating in the sky.

kippy

drumswan wrote: »

Yes. Unless they start building 3 bed semis with gardens in Dublin 2 and renting them out for 1200 quid. Perhaps they could build them floating in the sky.

So the circumstances are relevant.

The thing is houses are by far a better place to live, especially when living with kids, and especially in this country as there are no apartments that are built with family living in mind.

I would hate to bring up a family in any of the apartments in this country, cant speak for elsewhere.
Things that make things awkward.
1. Washing and drying clothes.
2. Storage space for buggies/toys/general items.
3. Parking.
4. Access - generally requiring a stairs or a lift, not easy with buggies.
5. Noise. Yeah everyone complains about noise in apartments, imagine there were other families living around you with kids crying etc or worse still your kids were the ones causing all the agro around the place when it came to noise.
6. Safe outside areas, most blocks simply dont have them.
Thats just off the top of my head.


The point is if you had a 3 bed semi and an apartment block sitting beside it, you wouldn't prefer the apartment as an option.

The key to providing quality accomodation for the populace is transport links and planning.
Apartments are alright for a certain demographic for a certain period of time but ultimately if people are planning on having a family they would prefer live in a house.

Rose35

I agree with OP in the fact that Irish people are obsessed with owning property and I have lived in two other
countries in my 20's, now in saying all that we currently own two houses here in Ireland, and it is for our sons future,
so hopefully he won't feel the pressure we felt growing up that we must own what we live in.

Mrs OBumble

kippy wrote: »

Apartments are the worst possible space to live in long term.

Can you explain why?

I would have thought that a single-story apartment a safe balcony and a in a block with no wooden floors, a well-maintained elevator, a playground and a ground-level storage locker for each apartment would be be far better than a two story semi-d with bad insulation.

(Now I agree there are few Irish apartments like that currently. But there's no reason that Ireland cannot do things properly.)

Mrs OBumble

kippy wrote: »

1. Washing and drying clothes.

I'm sorry, but a huge proportion of Irish homes do not have a separate utility room: the washing machine is in the kitchen, and they are no better than apartments in this regard.

(The look of disgust that I comes on foreigner's faces when I gently explain to them why most Irish homes have that rectangular plastic bowl in the kitchen-sink is truly priceless. I can use see "ehwww .. the dirty buggers" going through their minds.)


Re drying, there is no reason why the utility room in an apartment could not be ventilated well enough to allow clothes to be dried inside. And another option is a rear-facing balcony: I live in an Irish apartment that has one of these, and it's lovely space as well as very practical.

anncoates

horsesfc88 wrote: »

Lovely Town? Kildare? Really

Doesn't sound like you bought it out of choice.

More like you just can't afford to buy property in the capital city

Nice.

My friend was renting a beautiful apartment in Spain. Huge and solidly built and Central. You just don't see this kind of apartments here in the medium price range.

_Kaiser_

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

(But there's no reason that Ireland cannot do things properly.)

I'm afraid you have more faith in this country than I do.

The OP is right.. people in this country are obsessed with owning property. It led to the biggest collapse in the history of this State, and now the powers that be are colluding with the vested interests to kick it all off again. :rolleyes:

I think the point someone raised above about the Famine is probably accurate enough - we have such an insecurity/inferiority complex in this country that we'll bankrupt ourselves just to be able to "show off" our fancy digs to our friends and total strangers neighbours (although for a while there it became more about bothering ourselves with what they might be "getting away with" that we weren't)

Of course the knock-on effects of this is a situation where people are practically forced to buy - not just by ads on telly and government spin and incentives - but by the reality of dealing with the "cowboy country" that is the private rental market in Ireland - amateur/reluctant landlords, ridiculous rents, options for long term tenancies being extremely rare etc - all of which becomes more of an issue as you get older/start a family etc

Of course that in turn then encourages the worst kind of tenant too because sure feck it, it's only renting right, and that is the crux of the problem.
As I've said here multiple times, renting in this country is seen by all sides involved (landlords, tenants, government/regulators) as a short term stop-gap to property ownership or the option for those with no other choice (ie: the poor, and we know THEY don't count in this farce we call a State) and as such no-one takes it seriously which results in the above problems!

But unlike you Mrs OB, I have zero faith in a cabaal of incompetent unqualified teachers, lawyers, publicans and their mates in the building trade to do anything to change/reform it - shure that's not what the Irish people want!

Welcome to Ireland!

Rose35

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I'm sorry, but a huge proportion of Irish homes do not have a separate utility room: the washing machine is in the kitchen, and they are no better than apartments in this regard.

(The look of disgust that I comes on foreigner's faces when I gently explain to them why most Irish homes have that rectangular plastic bowl in the kitchen-sink is truly priceless. I can use see "ehwww .. the dirty buggers" going through their minds.)


Re drying, there is no reason why the utility room in an apartment could not be ventilated well enough to allow clothes to be dried inside. And another option is a rear-facing balcony: I live in an Irish apartment that has one of these, and it's lovely space as well as very practical.

Explain what exactly ??? I don't know what you do in the 'plastic bowl'?

kippy

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I'm sorry, but a huge proportion of Irish homes do not have a separate utility room: the washing machine is in the kitchen, and they are no better than apartments in this regard.

(The look of disgust that I comes on foreigner's faces when I gently explain to them why most Irish homes have that rectangular plastic bowl in the kitchen-sink is truly priceless. I can use see "ehwww .. the dirty buggers" going through their minds.)


Re drying, there is no reason why the utility room in an apartment could not be ventilated well enough to allow clothes to be dried inside. And another option is a rear-facing balcony: I live in an Irish apartment that has one of these, and it's lovely space as well as very practical.

I'n not talking about a utility room (not that posh myself tbh)
Talking about washing and drying the amount of clothes that goes with rearing two kids (Particulary drying)

Both your posts assume that these type of apartments are available in this country.
They very plainly arent, and I have contexted all of my comments with that caveat.

spockety

Can we please ban any nonsense talk about "everyone" on the continent living in apartments?

Go to any major European city, Berlin, Paris, Stockholm, Copenhagen, etc, etc, etc., and within 2 to 4 miles of the centre of the city you will find low density detached housing the likes of which many people in Dublin aspire to own.

The key thing is that there is a balance, and a choice to fit various lifestyles.

They have proper apartments and a proper renting culture, but that is only part of the mix. There is proper planning with the most dense stock nearer to the city (think between the canals in Dublin), and much lower density further out. Houses with gardens, driveways, etc.

People who live in Dublin suburbs are right to demand housing like this, it is not unique to Dublin, it is not unique to the UK, it is a worldwide phenomenon. The false image perpetuated of major European cities having nothing but high quality apartments is a load of rubbish.

We should not be building low density between the canals, but further out in the suburbs (think Stillorgan, Dundrum, Ballinteer, Rathfarnham, Tallaght, Finglas, Ballymum, etc, etc.) there is no reason why a mix of properly planned accommodation can't include lower density units.

iguana

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Re drying, there is no reason why the utility room in an apartment could not be ventilated well enough to allow clothes to be dried inside. And another option is a rear-facing balcony: I live in an Irish apartment that has one of these, and it's lovely space as well as very practical.

People like line drying clothing for numerous reasons. It's better for the longevity of the clothing, natural light removes biological stains and eliminates the need for chemical stain removers, the clothes smell better, it's free. You can't achieve that indoors and I don't know many places which even allow clothes drying on the balcony, nevermind have a balcony even remotely large enough to dry a machine load of washing.

People like gardens. Even a small 40ft garden is many times bigger than a very big balcony. You can't leave your toddler play alone on the balcony or in the communal garden while you do the washing/make dinner in the kitchen. You can if you have your own garden. You can't play fetch with your dogs on the balcony/in the communal garden, you can in your own garden. You can't have a substantial fruit and veg patch on your balcony/in the communal garden, you can in your own. Sure you can have an allotment somewhere off-site, but that's not exactly useful when you want to be able to fresh pick your salad while you prepare dinner. Up until I was 7 my parents only had what's considered a small garden but in it, we had a lawn with flowered borders, with garden furniture for eating outside. A swingset, space to play ball and fetch with the dogs, a decent shed, a washing line, a good sized vegetable garden with a green house, 2 apple trees (cooking and eating) and a chicken coop with 2 chickens. You might be able to do a couple of those things if you had a very, very big balcony but it doesn't have a fraction of the utility of a small garden. And when we moved into their current house with a very big garden, they made a lot more use out of it, including building us a multi-floored tree house, with a fantastic rope swing in the giant ash tree that you'd never get on a balcony.

_Kaiser_

iguana wrote: »

People like line drying clothing for numerous reasons. It's better for the longevity of the clothing, natural light removes biological stains and eliminates the need for chemical stain removers, the clothes smell better, it's free. You can't achieve that indoors and I don't know many places which even allow clothes drying on the balcony, nevermind have a balcony even remotely large enough to dry a machine load of washing.

Exactly.. the problem you have then is these "Management companies"/"Residents associations" with notions of themselves telling people who've bought their own place what they can do in it because of how it might look to total strangers! :rolleyes:

Santa Cruz

punisher5112 wrote: »

Because someone wants a home that they won't be kicked out of by pushed up rents or the LL turning around and saying oh by the way im moving back into my property or putting it up for sale.


It would be ok if it had a system like other countries but don't see that happening.

Rents are too high and not enough properties.

Op you need to read into the issue better.

If you do your research properly you wont be housed beside scumbags and if a scumbag buys near you there is the option of moving elsewhere.

wd42

(The look of disgust that I comes on foreigner's faces when I gently explain to them why most Irish homes have that rectangular plastic bowl in the kitchen-sink is truly priceless. I can use see "ehwww .. the dirty buggers" going through their minds.)

Rose35 wrote: »

Explain what exactly ??? I don't know what you do in the 'plastic bowl'?

Yes, please explain this. Is it some sort of weird bidet??

Born and lived in Ireland/Dublin my whole life, have never come across this with any family or friends EVER!

jmayo

Bigcheeze wrote: »

Holland is a postage stamp of land with 20 million people. They do that because they have to not because they want to. Those Dutch conurbations look depressing.

Then how come there is such a high percentage of apartment dwellers in the likes of Sweden, Finland, Spain, etc.

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

I'm afraid you have more faith in this country than I do.

The OP is right.. people in this country are obsessed with owning property. It led to the biggest collapse in the history of this State, and now the powers that be are colluding with the vested interests to kick it all off again. :rolleyes:

I think the point someone raised above about the Famine is probably accurate enough - we have such an insecurity/inferiority complex in this country that we'll bankrupt ourselves just to be able to "show off" our fancy digs to our friends and total strangers neighbours (although for a while there it became more about bothering ourselves with what they might be "getting away with" that we weren't)

Of course the knock-on effects of this is a situation where people are practically forced to buy - not just by ads on telly and government spin and incentives - but by the reality of dealing with the "cowboy country" that is the private rental market in Ireland - amateur/reluctant landlords, ridiculous rents, options for long term tenancies being extremely rare etc - all of which becomes more of an issue as you get older/start a family etc

Of course that in turn then encourages the worst kind of tenant too because sure feck it, it's only renting right, and that is the crux of the problem.
As I've said here multiple times, renting in this country is seen by all sides involved (landlords, tenants, government/regulators) as a short term stop-gap to property ownership or the option for those with no other choice (ie: the poor, and we know THEY don't count in this farce we call a State) and as such no-one takes it seriously which results in the above problems!

But unlike you Mrs OB, I have zero faith in a cabaal of incompetent unqualified teachers, lawyers, publicans and their mates in the building trade to do anything to change/reform it - shure that's not what the Irish people want!

Welcome to Ireland!

Agree.

And you know the really unbelievable thing is that despite our history of having a huge chunk of our population being disenfranchised with no security of a roof over their head, we as a people never demanded nor any government never bothered after independence to enshrine into law real protection for long term renters.

It as if we decided that since we now ourselves could be landlords we might as well cash in on those less well off.

Yes eventually we got some legislation, but it was really only after the state was pushed and particularly after the state decided to remove itself from directly providing housing to the less well off.
And by less well off I also mean those in low paying jobs, not just the leeching never work a day in their lives.

Even now we can see that the legislation and regulatory authorities are not up to scratch to protect tenants and give them long term security.
And there isn't enough protection of landlords from the most disreputable form of tenants who can become a nightmare to shift.

How many threads have we got over the last few months where tenants are facing uncertainty because their landlords are in receivorship or forced to sell up ?

Eric Cartman

Apartments in ireland for the most part are poorly sound insulated, come with 1 parking space (if even) and any of the good ones cost as much as a house (15 mins further out of the city) to buy (on a bedroom for bedroom basis)

we have very poor green space / playground facilities to suit having children / pets in apartments.

I think an apartment is fine as an investment and fine to live in in your 20's but realistically youd want to be a childless singleton/couple with no car and quiet kinds of people to live in an apartment.

Degringola

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Exactly.. the problem you have then is these "Management companies"/"Residents associations" with notions of themselves telling people who've bought their own place what they can do in it because of how it might look to total strangers! :rolleyes:

I know in our apartment complex, apartment owners do not own their balconies, therefore we cannot do what we like with them.

Reekwind

There is a serious lack of understanding in this thread. The stats are clear - we rent more than most European countries. The only "obsession" here is people's fascination with our perceived national deficiencies.

jmayo wrote: »

Then how come there is such a high percentage of apartment dwellers in the likes of Sweden, Finland, Spain, etc

Two of these countries have lower percentages of apartment dwellers than Ireland, the third (Sweden) is only slightly higher.

meeeeh

jmayo wrote: »

Then how come there is such a high percentage of apartment dwellers in the likes of Sweden, Finland, Spain, etc.

I don't know about those countries but Ireland doesn't have mountains (those bumps in the distance don't count). Try to build in the Alps for example. Countries with high mountains have less space to play with and usually people are much more packed in the valleys.

Anyway all the talk about amazing apartments in city centre exclude large percentage of apartments in dodgy areas, older buildings with bad plumbing. And I am not talking just about Eastern Europe. Anybody who had to travel to the centre of Rome from the airport would see how unattractive apartment living can be. Even rich cities as Munich, Vienna have areas that are less than desirable.

horsesfc88

kippy wrote: »

Apartments are the worst possible space to live in long term. Especially the standards of apartment in this country and especially if you ever intend having a family.

How so?

I put a bid in for a 2 bed in a decent area of Dublin and my mortgage will work out at 440 per month

It's in a good spot and atleast i'll be able to live life instead of living to pay a mortgage and spending my spare time cutting the grass