Costs of breeding

andreac

snoman wrote: »

Oh, that's interesting. And why is it not done for the first mating?

Do you know, im not actually too sure why and what the reasons are

snoman

andreac wrote: »

Do you know, im not actually too sure why and what the reasons are

.... bet you wished I hadn't asked!! ; )

Knine

It is more difficult to use AI for a maiden bitch if she has not had a litter & less likely to have a successful outcome. If AI is used on a maiden bitch the resulting bitches must have a natural litter before AI was used with them.

Lemlin

muddypaws wrote: »

I know of a breeder in Ireland that has travelled to Scandanavia for a stud dog, and I also know that they always have a waiting list, will actually sell to very few people, and always keep at least one of the pups for themselves, usually more.

I also travel to the UK frequently on the ferry with my dogs, and have never got a crossing for €42, and I use Irish Ferries, so would love to know where you get your figures from Lemlin.

As Borderlinemeath says above, I don't agree with the 'leave her to it, she'll be grand' attitude. I guess it depends what circles you move in, as the breeders that I know are like Knine and jimf, so to me, that is the norm, and how it should be done.

As I've said, I know breeders myself who have gone as far as Russia for pups. My point is that not every breeder recommended by breed clubs is going to these lengths. That is the exception rather than the norm.

As for the ferry price, Irishferries.com. It advertises that they have prices from as low as £32 to Ireland. That's where I got the price.

As for the "depends what circles you move in", I'll take as a slight and dig. I don't know why when ever anyone on here questions the established opinion, terms like "backyward breeder" and "puppy farmer" are thrown about. Do you think everyone involved in a breed club is acting athically and that there are no people interested in making a quick buck? Given the problems we've had in this country through the boom with all sectors of the economy and clubs, associations etc.

I know plenty of people who go to extreme lengths with their dogs as I've said but I still feel that what seems to be presented as the norm for breeding on here is far from it.

borderlinemeath wrote: »

But that's subjective, you take a hands off, minimal imput approach, and that is your idea of good breeding. I agree that the hard physical work is when the mother stops feeding, it's when it gets tough and messy but I find it harder to comprehend that you think other breeders are overstating the effort when it comes across that you have a "leave her to it, she'll be grand by herself" way of dealing with it.

For any good breeder I would imagine there's a great deal of apprehension and stress during whelping and the subsequent few weeks. The risk of losing your bitch, and/or the pups. Pups do die, off the top of my head I can think of 4 examples of people I know losing pups early on, through smothering, neglect by the bitch, runts dying, fading puppy syndrome, and I don't know a whole lot of breeders.

I'm not referring to myself. I'm referring to breeders in general. I do not believe every single breeder involved in an IKC breed club goes to the lengths which are presented on here as the "norm". That is my point. Every time someone mentions breeding on here, they are given a hundred reasons not to and told about every bad case a poster can think of. The fact is the majority of births happen without problem and dogs certainly do not need two months of uninterrupted attention.

And I say this as someone who knows plenty of people involved in breed clubs and people with champion dogs.

As I've asked, is anyone regulating any of the breed clubs? I've constantly seen people pointed towards breed clubs on here and yet I can give examples of where breed clubs have acted unethically in my opinion.

We have large sums changing hands in the country and there is no regulation whatsoever. Imagine I want a direwolf pup. I go to the Direwolf association of Ireland. Ned Stark is the secretary. Ned has two pals, Robert Baratheon and Tywin Lannister. So Ned is telling me to go to Robert and Tywin that they have great pups. How am I to know any better? I think its a crazy system if you ask me. Yes, it has its advantages but it could also have huge disadvantages.

Say Ned's dog was the stud for some of the pups and he is interested in increasing demand for his own dog by showing his success as a stud. What's to stop Ned pointing me towards these pups?

Lemlin

andreac wrote: »

If i added up the money i spent on the Goats Milk alone that i fed to my pups over the 5/6 weeks then im sure it cost me an absolute fortune!! 1 Litre of Goats milk is 1.59 and i went through a lot of it for 7 Rottie pups.

I also spent the first 2 weeks of the pups lives on a fold up camp bed beside them in the kitchen. Apart from actual hard costs of equipment etc there is the other aspect of it, your time, your hard work and effort you put in too.

I also had to pay someone to call in to my pups everyday once i went back to work, 5 days a week for the 6 weeks. I gave her fuel money aswell so again thats another cost.

Not everyone can take 2 months off work to mind pups and i certainly couldnt leave mine at home by themselves all day as they had to be checked, fed etc.

Yes my life was on hold for 2 months as i had to be home everyday straight after work to mind the pups, have them fed, cleaned out, let outside etc. By the time all that was done the evening was as good as over.

I dont think you realise what raising a litter properly actually entails?

Yes, the first 2 weeks the eyes are closed, but thats the most important and dangerous time when pups can be squashed and killed by the mother rolling or sitting on them. That is why i spent 2 weeks down with them every night and thank god i did as several times i had to get up during the night as she was lying on one or two of them.

I know of many people who have lost pups due to the mother squashing them (Rotties) as its quite common so i wanted to make sure i did everything to prevent this from happening, so yes, the first 2 weeks are extremely important for supervising them with the mother and making sure they are all feeding and thriving.

I can go on and on as to the work and effort i put in to raising my litter but i wont as you dont want to seem to accept how much hard work, and time and money goes in to raising a litter properly.

In fairness andreac a lot of people would have families or help. I can't comment on your own situation. Many people have families or kids that can help. That's the reality of the situation. I also had to go away for three days while I had my pups before. I have 3 brothers and a wife in a position to care for them though. The man I mentioned earlier had a wife and 3 teenage kids to help him.

To be honest I would take great offence to the line " I dont think you realise what raising a litter properly actually entails?". How can you make this judgement? Because I've said I don't believe someone needs to sleep next to their pups for 2 weeks on a fold up camp bed? I think you'll find the majority of breeders would not go to this extreme.

I can't comment on Rottweilers and squashing pups. I know nothing about the breed. The experience I have is with terriers and gundogs (Spaniels, Labradors) and I've said that before. I've often seen bitches roll onto a pup and the pup will yelp and the bitch will move.

I have no doubt you did put in hard work however my own opinion is that some of it was hugely unnecessary and my own opinion is that the majority of breeders are not going to such lengths. Again, I would have to agree with the opinion I've heard that a lot of these stories are from people who want to justify the huge prices they charge for pups.

It's interesting that none of ye replied regarding my posts on the breed clubs acting unethically above. Giving out details of pups they had no idea of and people signing contracts to protect high pricing. To be honest it's a problem on here. People just ignore the points that they don't want to address. You say I'm not interested in accepting your hard work, however it is users on here who aren't interested in my opinions because it doesn't paint the picture that they like to. I commend you for your hard work and I'm sure the pups you breed are a fine example of the breed.

andreac

But Lemlin, these are the things that breeders SHOULD be doing and its why a reputable breeder charge what they do for their pups, because they put in all the extra hard work and money, to raise their litter with every bit of care they can.

Thats why top notch puppies cost what they do because us reputable breeders go that extra mile to do what they can and dont care what costs are involved as they want their litter raised the best they can with money not being an issue and trying to cut corners here and there.

Back yard breeders will do the absolute minimum and will cut corners and costs, so they can make as much money as possible.

Im involved in showing and know a lot of breeders that do exactly what i did with my litter and some even more, if thats even possible. Why? because their aim is to produce the best puppies they can and put the best of everything in to them. Its what we do.

andreac

Im not sure what you mean by the breed clubs to be honest?

Im involved in the Rottweiler Club of Ireland and get the enquiries about people looking for pups etc. All i do is pass on details of all the breeders i know involved in Rotties and if there are any litters going at the time or if i know of any litters being planned.

I dont get any commission or anything from doing so. Im merely a go between, passing on information and details and that person then does all the work by contacting the breeders and finding out the information for themselves.

borderlinemeath

Lemlin wrote: »

I'm not referring to myself. I'm referring to breeders in general. I do not believe every single breeder involved in an IKC breed club goes to the lengths which are presented on here as the "norm". That is my point. Every time someone mentions breeding on here, they are given a hundred reasons not to and told about every bad case a poster can think of. The fact is the majority of births happen without problem and dogs certainly do not need two months of uninterrupted attention.

And I say this as someone who knows plenty of people involved in breed clubs and people with champion dogs.

There are a hundred reasons not to.
Almost every dog I've fostered here has been purebred. A couple were just used as puppy making machines. Pounds and rescues are full to bursting with dogs that people bought as cute puppies and didn't put enough research or thought in to the purchase and the impact it would have on their lives. It's actually coming up to the time of year when dogs bought as puppies are dumped because people haven't put training in, or the dog has got too big, or too rough with the kids (because they haven't put the training in), or it has chewed the house apart, or dug the garden up, or summer holidays are coming up and they don't want to pay for kenneling, the list goes on.

For every person that comes onto this forum and says they want to breed, how many have lined up a dozen properly researched buyers for their pups? Not many I would say. As per the last thread a couple of days ago, the majority of people looking for information on breeding have no idea about choosing a suitable mate, copulation/dogs tied, whelping, care of pups, they just wing it, as is evident from their queries on this forum! I know people have to start somewhere, but they need to have done SOME research, or spoken at length to an experienced breeder, so it's no wonder that they are put off the idea by people who have been through it and know how tough it can be.

And I would imagine full well that if there was trouble with a champion litter, it wouldn't come to light, people want to sell the pups and recoup their expenses, not let on that some of the litter didn't survive. Buyers might run a mile.

As I've asked, is anyone regulating any of the breed clubs? I've constantly seen people pointed towards breed clubs on here and yet I can give examples of where breed clubs have acted unethically in my opinion.

We have large sums changing hands in the country and there is no regulation whatsoever. Imagine I want a direwolf pup. I go to the Direwolf association of Ireland. Ned Stark is the secretary. Ned has two pals, Robert Baratheon and Tywin Lannister. So Ned is telling me to go to Robert and Tywin that they have great pups. How am I to know any better? I think its a crazy system if you ask me. Yes, it has its advantages but it could also have huge disadvantages.

Say Ned's dog was the stud for some of the pups and he is interested in increasing demand for his own dog by showing his success as a stud. What's to stop Ned pointing me towards these pups?

As is the case with everything you purchase. Sometimes the expert or the point of contact is the best person to purchase from. Why does that have to be a bad thing? As a consumer, you make up your own mind, try and find independent recommendations, easy enough to do in the show or gundog world I should think.

Lemlin

andreac wrote: »

But Lemlin, these are the things that breeders SHOULD be doing and its why a reputable breeder charge what they do for their pups, because they put in all the extra hard work and money, to raise their litter with every bit of care they can.

Thats why top notch puppies cost what they do because us reputable breeders go that extra mile to do what they can and dont care what costs are involved as they want their litter raised the best they can with money not being an issue and trying to cut corners here and there.

Back yard breeders will do the absolute minimum and will cut corners and costs, so they can make as much money as possible.

Im involved in showing and know a lot of breeders that do exactly what i did with my litter and some even more, if thats even possible. Why? because their aim is to produce the best puppies they can and put the best of everything in to them. Its what we do.

Two simple question -
1. Would you believe every breeder involved in the club you are involved in goes to these lengths?
2. Would you trust every person involved in the club to act honestly and always with fairness?

andreac wrote: »

Im not sure what you mean by the breed clubs to be honest?

Im involved in the Rottweiler Club of Ireland and get the enquiries about people looking for pups etc. All i do is pass on details of all the breeders i know involved in Rotties and if there are any litters going at the time or if i know of any litters being planned.

I dont get any commission or anything from doing so. Im merely a go between, passing on information and details and that person then does all the work by contacting the breeders and finding out the information for themselves.

I am talking about breed specific dog clubs. There are tens if not hundreds in Ireland, one for each breed.

That is the system I am talking about. People are contacting you about pups and you give them the details of other people you know who have pups. Do you not think there is room within this framework for people to act unethically like I have said above? I am not in any way casting any aspersion on you or your club but I am saying it is a possibility yet rarely do we see it mentioned.

I'd also point to the examples I have already given of other clubs not acting as ethically as you do. Clubs giving out details about pups they know nothing of.

My point is regularly we point people towards breed clubs on this forum but I rarely ever see anyone say "start with the breed club but remember to keep your options open" or "contact the breed club but remember to ask the relevant questions".

Lemlin

borderlinemeath wrote: »

There are a hundred reasons not to.
Almost every dog I've fostered here has been purebred. A couple were just used as puppy making machines. Pounds and rescues are full to bursting with dogs that people bought as cute puppies and didn't put enough research or thought in to the purchase and the impact it would have on their lives. It's actually coming up to the time of year when dogs bought as puppies are dumped because people haven't put training in, or the dog has got too big, or too rough with the kids (because they haven't put the training in), or it has chewed the house apart, or dug the garden up, or summer holidays are coming up and they don't want to pay for kenneling, the list goes on.

For every person that comes onto this forum and says they want to breed, how many have lined up a dozen properly researched buyers for their pups? Not many I would say. As per the last thread a couple of days ago, the majority of people looking for information on breeding have no idea about choosing a suitable mate, copulation/dogs tied, whelping, care of pups, they just wing it, as is evident from their queries on this forum! I know people have to start somewhere, but they need to have done SOME research, or spoken at length to an experienced breeder, so it's no wonder that they are put off the idea by people who have been through it and know how tough it can be.

And I would imagine full well that if there was trouble with a champion litter, it wouldn't come to light, people want to sell the pups and recoup their expenses, not let on that some of the litter didn't survive. Buyers might run a mile.


As is the case with everything you purchase. Sometimes the expert or the point of contact is the best person to purchase from. Why does that have to be a bad thing? As a consumer, you make up your own mind, try and find independent recommendations, easy enough to do in the show or gundog world I should think.

I fully agree people regularly come on here that shouldn't be breeding or even thinking of it. I also agree that there are far too many unwanted pups in the country. Its about time we got some proper legislation. My point is that, in my opinion, a totally incorrect view of breeding is often given on here and, for me at least, it is often given by people who support this industry of charging high prices for pups.

I've heard people on here before say from a litter that you might only get one pup suitable for showing that they would keep themselves. So why is it acceptable then to charge €650 to people for what are inferior pups? Why is it acceptable to charge €650 to someone who will never show their dog or has no interest in showing it? You're charging a show price for a pet dog.

My point re the breed clubs is exactly what I say above. We live in a country where the recent boom has uncovered plenty of unethical actions in various industries and clubs and associations. Breed clubs are not regulated in any way. Staff here in the company I work in complete a fitness and probity form each year. We have to answer questions like whether we are the director of any company involved with our own etc. to make sure we have no vested interests. Is there any regulation like this for breed clubs? Who is checking that the secretaries and other board members are fit for their roles? These are breed clubs that every day of the week are pointing people towards people that are often friends to buy pups for vast amounts of money. That is my point.

There should be some form of regulation introduced somewhere. In my experience not all of the individuals involved in these clubs are as trustworthy as the posters on here.

andreac

Lemlin wrote: »

Two simple question -
1. Would you believe every breeder involved in the club you are involved in goes to these lengths?
2. Would you trust every person involved in the club to act honestly and always with fairness?



I am talking about breed specific dog clubs. There are tens if not hundreds in Ireland, one for each breed.

That is the system I am talking about. People are contacting you about pups and you give them the details of other people you know who have pups. Do you not think there is room within this framework for people to act unethically like I have said above? I am not in any way casting any aspersion on you or your club but I am saying it is a possibility yet rarely do we see it mentioned.

I'd also point to the examples I have already given of other clubs not acting as ethically as you do. Clubs giving out details about pups they know nothing of.

My point is regularly we point people towards breed clubs on this forum but I rarely ever see anyone say "start with the breed club but remember to keep your options open" or "contact the breed club but remember to ask the relevant questions".

To answer your questions, yes, every breeder i know involved in our club would go to those lengths with their litters as they are reputable.
Secondly, yes i trust all of the people that are involed in our club and who i recommend. I am on the committee of the RCOI so its in our best interest to ensure that we are only recommending trustworthy breeders and ensure puppies are well bred and good homes are found for them.

I dont know why you keep thinking breeders are trying to be unethical? Its up the people looking for pups to do their homework on the breeders they are in touch with and try and arm themselves with as much knowledge as possible.

Lemlin

andreac wrote: »

To answer your questions, yes, every breeder i know involved in our club would go to those lengths with their litters as they are reputable.
Secondly, yes i trust all of the people that are involed in our club and who i recommend. I am on the committee of the RCOI so its in our best interest to ensure that we are only recommending trustworthy breeders and ensure puppies are well bred and good homes are found for them.

I dont know why you keep thinking breeders are trying to be unethical? Its up the people looking for pups to do their homework on the breeders they are in touch with and try and arm themselves with as much knowledge as possible.

So, let's get this straight, when someone contacts you about a pup, you are often pointing them in the direction of a friend? Do you not see my point that there is a huge risk of people acting unethically in this system?

As I've said, fraud has been proven to have been occuring in many areas of this country and industries yet you honestly believe it hasn't filtered through to a profitable, unregulated industry like breed clubs?

I keep thinking breeders can be unethical because I have examples of it. I'll give them again:

Two examples:

1. The man I talked about originally. His dog was just a pet bred off a champion stud and the breed club were pointing people towards him. They knew nothing about his dog. All they knew was about the stud dog. They aided him in charging €650 for pups from a pet dog. People contacted him on their recommendation.
2. I myself have been given breeder details by breed clubs for people who had no health checks done yet were charging high prices. One woman hadn't even shown her dog but had signed a contract when she bought her dog originally to confirm she would not sell pups for less than €600 as it would "devalue the line". She had never shown her own dog. When I talked to her about the price, she seemed quite embarrassed about it and informed me of the contract she had to sign and why the price was €600 despite her having no health checks on her dog and it never having been shown.

Do you think these instances above are ethical of the two different clubs in question?

jimf

Lemlin wrote: »

So, let's get this straight, when someone contacts you about a pup, you are often pointing them in the direction of a friend? Do you not see my point that there is a huge risk of people acting unethically in this system?

As I've said, fraud has been proven to have been occuring in many areas of this country and industries yet you honestly believe it hasn't filtered through to a profitable, unregulated industry like breed clubs?

I keep thinking breeders can be unethical because I have examples of it. I'll give them again:

Two examples:

1. The man I talked about originally. His dog was just a pet bred off a champion stud and the breed club were pointing people towards him. They knew nothing about his dog. All they knew was about the stud dog. They aided him in charging €650 for pups from a pet dog. People contacted him on their recommendation.
2. I myself have been given breeder details by breed clubs for people who had no health checks done yet were charging high prices. One woman hadn't even shown her dog but had signed a contract when she bought her dog originally to confirm she would not sell pups for less than €600 as it would "devalue the line". She had never shown her own dog. When I talked to her about the price, she seemed quite embarrassed about it and informed me of the contract she had to sign and why the price was €600 despite her having no health checks on her dog and it never having been shown.

Do you think these instances above are ethical of the two different clubs in question?

would I be right in saying you have had a bad experience with some 1 of these organisations over the years as you seem to have a chip on your shoulder maybe even the whole bag of spuds

Lemlin

jimf wrote: »

would I be right in saying you have had a bad experience with some 1 of these organisations over the years as you seem to have a chip on your shoulder maybe even the whole bag of spuds

To be honest you'd be wrong. I've had limited interaction with clubs. I know plenty of members of clubs but I've never been interested in joining one myself. Perhaps when I get a bit older but I wouldn't have the time at present. I do find the whole system amazing though and I do have an issue with the fact that anytime anyone on here mentions looking for a pup, they are pointed towards the breed club and no disclaimer is given as to what they should be looking for. As I've asked, who is regulating the breed clubs? What's to say that breed club aren't pointing them in the wrong direction or acting unethically?

In my own experience of looking for a pup recently the breed club was no help. I've said that before. I've also seen others say it on here and I was amazed recently by what this man told me - that a breed club would recommend his pups and aid him in selling pups for €650 that they knew nothing about. This to me is hugely unethical.

The fact is I'm asking questions that people here obviously don't want to answer. Casting aspersions against my character is not going to make the points I am raising go away. Despite the "let's stick our head in the sand and ignore the problem" mentality a lot of posters are displaying.

If you think my post is unfair, attack the post. Comment on it and the points I've raised, not on me.

The interesting thing is I've mentioned two examples several times and at no point have any of the posters on here arguing with me said that they cannot imagine that happening or believe that it is untrue. They've just ignored the two examples, in my opinion, because they know things like this are happening in breed clubs.

snoman

As a complete outsider it seems to me that what breeding to standard has done is create a fairly rarified market. And the laws of supply and demand dictate that high end, good quality stock is harder to source than badly produced knock offs. And because there is no regulation, and no overall industry wide enthusiasism to create it, this situation will continue.

andreac

Lemlin wrote: »

To be honest you'd be wrong. I've had limited interaction with clubs. I know plenty of members of clubs but I've never been interested in joining one myself. Perhaps when I get a bit older but I wouldn't have the time at present. I do find the whole system amazing though and I do have an issue with the fact that anytime anyone on here mentions looking for a pup, they are pointed towards the breed club and no disclaimer is given as to what they should be looking for. As I've asked, who is regulating the breed clubs? What's to say that breed club aren't pointing them in the wrong direction or acting unethically?

In my own experience of looking for a pup recently the breed club was no help. I've said that before. I've also seen others say it on here and I was amazed recently by what this man told me - that a breed club would recommend his pups and aid him in selling pups for €650 that they knew nothing about. This to me is hugely unethical.

The fact is I'm asking questions that people here obviously don't want to answer. Casting aspersions against my character is not going to make the points I am raising go away. Despite the "let's stick our head in the sand and ignore the problem" mentality a lot of posters are displaying.

If you think my post is unfair, attack the post. Comment on it and the points I've raised, not on me.

The interesting thing is I've mentioned two examples several times and at no point have any of the posters on here arguing with me said that they cannot imagine that happening or believe that it is untrue. They've just ignored the two examples, in my opinion, because they know things like this are happening in breed clubs.

We are answering your questions?? Not sure why you are saying we arent.

That one you mention about the club recommending the dog they know nothing about. But they do know something about it. The person with the stud dog knows about the bitch and obv was happy for their dog to let them use their dog, so how is that not knowing about the bitch?? Im lost?

jimf

apoligies lemlin if you think my post was an attack on your character it would not be intended that way

Lemlin

andreac wrote: »

We are answering your posts Lemlin??

Unanswered questions from previous posts:

As I've asked, is anyone regulating any of the breed clubs? I've constantly seen people pointed towards breed clubs on here and yet I can give examples of where breed clubs have acted unethically in my opinion.

We have large sums changing hands in the country and there is no regulation whatsoever. Imagine I want a direwolf pup. I go to the Direwolf association of Ireland. Ned Stark is the secretary. Ned has two pals, Robert Baratheon and Tywin Lannister. So Ned is telling me to go to Robert and Tywin that they have great pups. How am I to know any better? I think its a crazy system if you ask me. Yes, it has its advantages but it could also have huge disadvantages.

Say Ned's dog was the stud for some of the pups and he is interested in increasing demand for his own dog by showing his success as a stud. What's to stop Ned pointing me towards these pups?

To be honest I would take great offence to the line " I dont think you realise what raising a litter properly actually entails?". How can you make this judgement? Because I've said I don't believe someone needs to sleep next to their pups for 2 weeks on a fold up camp bed? I think you'll find the majority of breeders would not go to this extreme.

That is the system I am talking about. People are contacting you about pups and you give them the details of other people you know who have pups. Do you not think there is room within this framework for people to act unethically like I have said above? I am not in any way casting any aspersion on you or your club but I am saying it is a possibility yet rarely do we see it mentioned.

My point re the breed clubs is exactly what I say above. We live in a country where the recent boom has uncovered plenty of unethical actions in various industries and clubs and associations. Breed clubs are not regulated in any way. Staff here in the company I work in complete a fitness and probity form each year. We have to answer questions like whether we are the director of any company involved with our own etc. to make sure we have no vested interests. Is there any regulation like this for breed clubs? Who is checking that the secretaries and other board members are fit for their roles? These are breed clubs that every day of the week are pointing people towards people that are often friends to buy pups for vast amounts of money. That is my point.

As I've said, fraud has been proven to have been occuring in many areas of this country and industries yet you honestly believe it hasn't filtered through to a profitable, unregulated industry like breed clubs?
I keep thinking breeders can be unethical because I have examples of it. I'll give them again:

Two examples:

1. The man I talked about originally. His dog was just a pet bred off a champion stud and the breed club were pointing people towards him. They knew nothing about his dog. All they knew was about the stud dog. They aided him in charging €650 for pups from a pet dog. People contacted him on their recommendation.
2. I myself have been given breeder details by breed clubs for people who had no health checks done yet were charging high prices. One woman hadn't even shown her dog but had signed a contract when she bought her dog originally to confirm she would not sell pups for less than €600 as it would "devalue the line". She had never shown her own dog. When I talked to her about the price, she seemed quite embarrassed about it and informed me of the contract she had to sign and why the price was €600 despite her having no health checks on her dog and it never having been shown.

Do you think these instances above are ethical of the two different clubs in question?

Of course I'm not qualified to say my dog is top notch. I've never shown a dog in my life. My dogs are gundogs and pets. People looking for pups are pointed towards breed clubs on here alot. Is every pup suggested by a breed club a champion dog? That has proved it's lineage? Certainly not in my experience.

As for the "depends what circles you move in", I'll take as a slight and dig. I don't know why when ever anyone on here questions the established opinion, terms like "backyward breeder" and "puppy farmer" are thrown about. Do you think everyone involved in a breed club is acting ethically and that there are no people interested in making a quick buck? Given the problems we've had in this country through the boom with all sectors of the economy and clubs, associations etc.

Lemlin

jimf wrote: »

apoligies lemlin if you think my post was an attack on your character it would not be intended that way

How would it be seen as any other way? You've ignored all of my posts and questions and commented on my personal experience and put my opinion down to "ah well, someone must have annoyed him at some stage".

If I'm not raising valid points, then attack the points and show how ridiculous they are if that's your opinion.

I've done my research though and talked to plenty of people and I assure you the points I am raising are valid. Which is why those in support of breed clubs continue to ignore them.

If anything else, I'm happy to have this thread here for people to read when they are told to start their search for a new pup with the breed club. It is very much "buyer beware" with some clubs. Not all of course.

jimf

Lemlin wrote: »

How would it be seen as any other way? You've ignored all of my posts and questions and commented on my personal experience and put my opinion down to "ah well, someone must of annoyed him at some stage".

If I'm not raising valid points, then attack the points and show how ridiculous they are if that's your opinion.

I've done my research though and talked to plenty of people and I assure you the points I am raising are valid. Which is why those in support of breed clubs continue to ignore them.

I don't have the answers how would you propose these clubs be monitored

andreac

I cant multi quote so ill try my best to answer everything...

Clubs that are set up, have to be passed first by the IKC. Im not 100% but as far as i know they have to submit the accounts etc to them, but im not 100%. Most clubs have the dogs and exhibitors as their main objective and to try and improve quality etc of dogs in the ring and that are being bred too, health wise etc.

Sorry, but who is this Ned person you keep going on about??

Theres nothing stopping anyone from recommending friends etc or whatever you think they are doing. Its up to the individual who is given all of the info to do their own homework and evaluation of the breeder. As i said, we are merely a go between and giving out contacts within the breed and vouching for the breeder that they are reputable and can be trusted.

Ive made the judgement about you not realising whats involved in raising a litter properly as you seem to be in denial that all the stuff that us reputable breeders do is not called for and not needed, when it absolutely is. We dont do it for the craic. We do it because it is necessary.

Yes of course i think its unethical that a breeder is breeding unhealth tested dogs, absolutely, and i would never recommend a breeder like that. I often give advice out and say, whichever breeder you go for please please ensure the parents are health tested first and foremost and this has been said umpteen times by myself on this forum to ensure both parents are health tested, regardless of what breeder you choose to go with.

I personally dont know every Rottweiler breeder in the country, but i do know 99% of the reputable, trustworthy ones so therefore i can be full sure that any ones i recommend are ethical all the way.

muddypaws

Lemlin wrote: »

As I've said, I know breeders myself who have gone as far as Russia for pups. My point is that not every breeder recommended by breed clubs is going to these lengths. That is the exception rather than the norm.

As for the ferry price, Irishferries.com. It advertises that they have prices from as low as £32 to Ireland. That's where I got the price.

As for the "depends what circles you move in", I'll take as a slight and dig. I don't know why when ever anyone on here questions the established opinion, terms like "backyward breeder" and "puppy farmer" are thrown about. Do you think everyone involved in a breed club is acting athically and that there are no people interested in making a quick buck? Given the problems we've had in this country through the boom with all sectors of the economy and clubs, associations etc.

I know plenty of people who go to extreme lengths with their dogs as I've said but I still feel that what seems to be presented as the norm for breeding on here is far from it.



I'm not referring to myself. I'm referring to breeders in general. I do not believe every single breeder involved in an IKC breed club goes to the lengths which are presented on here as the "norm". That is my point. Every time someone mentions breeding on here, they are given a hundred reasons not to and told about every bad case a poster can think of. The fact is the majority of births happen without problem and dogs certainly do not need two months of uninterrupted attention.

And I say this as someone who knows plenty of people involved in breed clubs and people with champion dogs.

As I've asked, is anyone regulating any of the breed clubs? I've constantly seen people pointed towards breed clubs on here and yet I can give examples of where breed clubs have acted unethically in my opinion.

We have large sums changing hands in the country and there is no regulation whatsoever. Imagine I want a direwolf pup. I go to the Direwolf association of Ireland. Ned Stark is the secretary. Ned has two pals, Robert Baratheon and Tywin Lannister. So Ned is telling me to go to Robert and Tywin that they have great pups. How am I to know any better? I think its a crazy system if you ask me. Yes, it has its advantages but it could also have huge disadvantages.

Say Ned's dog was the stud for some of the pups and he is interested in increasing demand for his own dog by showing his success as a stud. What's to stop Ned pointing me towards these pups?

Oh right, so you don't know anyone that has travelled with a dog for £32 with Irish Ferries. I'm assuming that price would be for a foot passenger, or 1 of 4 people in a car possibly.

Nope, not a dig at all, you are relating your experiences, and the people that you know, and how they do things, I'm relating my experiences, and the people that I know. We obviously move in different circles.

Yep, agree that IKC reg and breed clubs recommendations don't necessarily mean an ethical breeder, shame that the IKC don't do an approved breeder scheme, with checks etc, maybe one day they will. So yes, I think that it is nigh on impossible for someone new to a breed to know who the reputable, responsible breeders are, that insight only comes with time spent with the breed you are interested in. My views on who I would recommend in my particular breed in Ireland have changed drastically in the last couple of years, as I've actually got to know people and their ethics. It is very easy to put websites etc up and appear to be something that you are not. But again, it depends really on what people want from a dog. The majority of puppy buyers put more research into buying a mobile phone than they do a pup.

But, the snobby, elitist breeders will continue to do things the right way I hope, and continue to be slated and ridiculed, but at least the dogs that they produce will be safe and have good lives - its all about the dogs

Nody

Lemlin wrote: »

If anything else, I'm happy to have this thread here for people to read when they are told to start their search for a new pup with the breed club. It is very much "buyer beware" with some clubs. Not all of course.

No all you've done is state that you don't think they work for various reasons which usually boils down to "How do you know they can be trusted?"; you have yet to provide any suggestions for alternatives to the current state of things how ever. IKC is not perfect and you'll be hard pressed to find anyone to state that; but to date I've never seen anyone having any alternative system to suggest either except "Well Donedeal puppies could work as well because ours were fine".

So in essence this thread has consisted of as far as I can see:

You: IKC is crap because they may recommend their mates and from my experience the prices their breeders charge are to high
Everyone else: Here's why the costs are so high because this is the effort we put in and all we know put in
You: Well the people I know don't so your experience is wrong oh and IKC is crap because they don't personally visit ever breeder they recommend and could be corrupt

Only to add I've never bred dogs; I'm unlikely to ever breed dogs and if someone asks me where to get a dog my first suggestion would always be at the rescue shelter (or similar institution of choice) even for pure breeds. How ever if you're dead set on wanting breed X then yes I'd recommend IKC as the best option (short of knowing personally a responsible breeder with a suitable line) because I don't know the breeders by heart and IKC is the only option for at least some controls that I'm aware off. If you can find a better alternative I'll happily promote that instead as the alternative but until such a point I'll take the least bad option I'm aware off.

Lemlin

muddypaws wrote: »

Oh right, so you don't know anyone that has travelled with a dog for £32 with Irish Ferries. I'm assuming that price would be for a foot passenger, or 1 of 4 people in a car possibly.

Nope, not a dig at all, you are relating your experiences, and the people that you know, and how they do things, I'm relating my experiences, and the people that I know. We obviously move in different circles.

Yep, agree that IKC reg and breed clubs recommendations don't necessarily mean an ethical breeder, shame that the IKC don't do an approved breeder scheme, with checks etc, maybe one day they will. So yes, I think that it is nigh on impossible for someone new to a breed to know who the reputable, responsible breeders are, that insight only comes with time spent with the breed you are interested in. My views on who I would recommend in my particular breed in Ireland have changed drastically in the last couple of years, as I've actually got to know people and their ethics. It is very easy to put websites etc up and appear to be something that you are not. But again, it depends really on what people want from a dog. The majority of puppy buyers put more research into buying a mobile phone than they do a pup.

But, the snobby, elitist breeders will continue to do things the right way I hope, and continue to be slated and ridiculed, but at least the dogs that they produce will be safe and have good lives - its all about the dogs

I know people who have travelled to the UK and further afield for dogs (Russia for example) but I did not get into the exact cost of the ferry with them. To be honest, the cost of the ferry is splitting hairs. I logged onto Irish Ferries and saw the price of a ferry. I've never travelled with a dog so do not know the other costs involved or even what costs there are. My point is that it isn't a huge extravagant cost to get a ferry. A train journey to some parts of the country would cost more.

I'm not just relating experiences of the people I know. I'm relating their experiences and experiences I've been told of. Again, you try this "we obviously move in different circles". What are you doing here other than trying to bring a negative connotation to the "circles" I move in? I'm not a member of any breed clubs so I don't move in any of those circles as such. I have plenty of friends however that do and I have friends who have champion dogs as I have said. Would these not be desirable "circles to move" in? Perople who have the best dog for their breed in the country?

I agree totally with you regarding the approved breeders scheme and it’s the sort of regulation that is needed. The problem is that sometimes those who present themselves as " snobby, elitist breeders" and who, I might add, are presented by breed clubs as "snobby, elitist breeders" are anything but. That is the point I am getting at.

andreac

Ive travelled to uk several times, actually a hell of a lot over the last few years on the ferry to shows and the cheapest fare you can get for a 24 hour return is 160 euro and that's if you return within 24 hours.

Most return journeys on the ferry costs around 250-300. So how can you say a ferry is cheaper than the train?

Lemlin

Nody wrote: »

No all you've done is state that you don't think they work for various reasons which usually boils down to "How do you know they can be trusted?"; you have yet to provide any suggestions for alternatives to the current state of things how ever. IKC is not perfect and you'll be hard pressed to find anyone to state that; but to date I've never seen anyone having any alternative system to suggest either except "Well Donedeal puppies could work as well because ours were fine".

So in essence this thread has consisted of as far as I can see:

You: IKC is crap because they may recommend their mates and from my experience the prices their breeders charge are to high
Everyone else: Here's why the costs are so high because this is the effort we put in and all we know put in
You: Well the people I know don't so your experience is wrong oh and IKC is crap because they don't personally visit ever breeder they recommend and could be corrupt

Only to add I've never bred dogs; I'm unlikely to ever breed dogs and if someone asks me where to get a dog my first suggestion would always be at the rescue shelter (or similar institution of choice) even for pure breeds. How ever if you're dead set on wanting breed X then yes I'd recommend IKC as the best option (short of knowing personally a responsible breeder with a suitable line) because I don't know the breeders by heart and IKC is the only option for at least some controls that I'm aware off. If you can find a better alternative I'll happily promote that instead as the alternative but until such a point I'll take the least bad option I'm aware off.

What I'm doing is raising the point is that when people do contact a breed club, they may not be always getting what they expect. The exact same way that they may not get what is described on Donedeal.

I've actually recommended people contact breed clubs on here myself. My point though is that they should be wary when they do and be aware of the system involved which can easily allow people to act unethically. Would you disagree?

I myself would like to see an approved breeder's scheme or even health tests displayed on IKC papers. I have UK papers for one of my dogs and all of the health tests of both parents are listed. Everything can be checked online and I can log into the details of my dog. Why aren't the IKC moving to a system like this? Its far more transparent.

You may make little of the points I'm raising but in my opinion they need to be raised. And posters may hide behind thanking posts like yours but the fact is they won't answer the questions I've raised and choose to stick their heads in the sand. They won't talk about the unethical examples I've given but not once has any of them said that they cannot imagine them happening in breed clubs.

Lemlin

andreac wrote: »

Ive travelled to uk several times, actually a hell of a lot over the last few years on the ferry to shows and the cheapest fare you can get for a 24 hour return is 160 euro and that's if you return within 24 hours.

Most return journeys on the ferry costs around 250-300. So how can you say a ferry is cheaper than the train?

Again splitting hairs to try and disprove my arguments. I've raised a number of queries re breed clubs and breeding and you choose to post about the ferry price :rolleyes:

Answer my questions above and then I'll answer this.

andreac

Lemlin wrote: »

Again splitting hairs to try and disprove my arguments. I've raised a number of queries re breed clubs and breeding and you choose to post about the ferry price :rolleyes:

Answer my questions above and then I'll answer this.

Im not trying to disprove your arguments, im telling it like it is. Thats the cheapest and higher price of a ferry, a long way off from the small figure you mentioned.

I have answered your questions?? Jesus Lemlin, i really dont know what more i can say or do so im bowing out of this thread now as i think ive contributed more than enough and given all the info i know i can that i know of.

Good luck

Lemlin

jimf wrote: »

I don't have the answers how would you propose these clubs be monitored

How many reputable breeders and clubs are there in the country? Shouldn't they be interested in coming up with a system? If it is the dogs that they care about.

Why bang along regardless with the way things are?

For me, an approved breeder's scheme and showing health tests on papers like the UK would be a small start.

Nody

Lemlin wrote: »

You may make little of the points I'm raising but in my opinion they need to be raised. And posters may hide behind thanking posts like yours but the fact is they won't answer the questions I've raised and choose to stick their heads in the sand. They won't talk about the unethical examples I've given but not once has any of them said that they cannot imagine them happening in breed clubs.

Let me sum up all your questions; Can people be corrupt or abuse a system? The answer is: YES!

Now answer this, today and right now in Ireland, is there in your opinion any better system for you to get a pure breed dog of a line you have no contacts for who breeds them or contacts who may know someone outside of contacting IKC and ask for suitable breeders of said breed?