Costs of breeding

Lemlin

andreac wrote: »

I cant multi quote so ill try my best to answer everything...

Clubs that are set up, have to be passed first by the IKC. Im not 100% but as far as i know they have to submit the accounts etc to them, but im not 100%. Most clubs have the dogs and exhibitors as their main objective and to try and improve quality etc of dogs in the ring and that are being bred too, health wise etc.

Sorry, but who is this Ned person you keep going on about??

Theres nothing stopping anyone from recommending friends etc or whatever you think they are doing. Its up to the individual who is given all of the info to do their own homework and evaluation of the breeder. As i said, we are merely a go between and giving out contacts within the breed and vouching for the breeder that they are reputable and can be trusted.

Ive made the judgement about you not realising whats involved in raising a litter properly as you seem to be in denial that all the stuff that us reputable breeders do is not called for and not needed, when it absolutely is. We dont do it for the craic. We do it because it is necessary.

Yes of course i think its unethical that a breeder is breeding unhealth tested dogs, absolutely, and i would never recommend a breeder like that. I often give advice out and say, whichever breeder you go for please please ensure the parents are health tested first and foremost and this has been said umpteen times by myself on this forum to ensure both parents are health tested, regardless of what breeder you choose to go with.

I personally dont know every Rottweiler breeder in the country, but i do know 99% of the reputable, trustworthy ones so therefore i can be full sure that any ones i recommend are ethical all the way.

So you give out details about pups for the club etc. so are a high enough official in the club to do this but you do not know who checks over the accounts? The Ned example was an example that often club secretaries will be pointing people towards their friends, people they know, people with pups from theeir lineage or stud dog so they may have a vested interest in who they are pointing people to. There is no regulation over the advice they are giving.

Yes, the breed club's "vouch" for breeders. But I've given two good examples above of breed clubs "vouching" for people who were not reputable breeders. That is my point. So it is obviously happening.

Lemlin

Nody wrote: »

Let me sum up all your questions; Can people be corrupt or abuse a system? The answer is: YES!

Now answer this, today and right now in Ireland, is there in your opinion any better system for you to get a pure breed dog of a line you have no contacts for who breeds them or contacts who may know someone outside of contacting IKC and ask for suitable breeders of said breed?

No, there is not. But I would stress that any person contacting a breed club should be aware that it is "buyer beware" and that the breed club may be no help whatsoever.

That is the simple point I am trying to convey - too often on this forum people are pointed towards breed clubs and not warned of the potential dangers involved.

I also find it amazing that we have a number of people arguing on behalf of breeds club who realise there is a problem but ignore it. If you love the particular breed so much and are so interested in the breed, why aren't the established breed clubs doing something about it?

There are a huge amount of members and funds involved so why continue with the status quo?

Lemlin

andreac wrote: »

Im not trying to disprove your arguments, im telling it like it is. Thats the cheapest and higher price of a ferry, a long way off from the small figure you mentioned.

I have answered your questions?? Jesus Lemlin, i really dont know what more i can say or do so im bowing out of this thread now as i think ive contributed more than enough and given all the info i know i can that i know of.

Good luck

Well if I'm wrong about the ferry price, I have no problem admitting it. As I said, I just went onto Irish Ferries and they said a trip is £32. I didn't enter the details to book a trip.

Add the £300 onto the costs we discussed earlier in the thread and the costs of breeding are still coming nowhere near the price people can command for pups.

Nody

Lemlin wrote: »

No, there is not. But I would stress that any person contacting a breed club should be aware that it is "buyer beware" and that the breed club may be no help whatsoever.

Then we're in agreement (at least to a point ); a breeder club simply makes it more likely you'll get a responsible breeder but it does in no way guarantee it. The standard rules of "They should ask as many questions of you as you of them" apply along with relevant health tests, seeing the pup in with their mother etc. etc. because you can't trust anyone (in fact I think a post/thread on this specifically on what to ask/check could be a great asset in general as it's a topic as you note come up regularly).

I also fully support and agree with your wish to change how IKC works; I think your suggestions above is a great example of what could be done and I commend you for it.

How ever and on a more personal level I think this thread degenerated far to much into IKC and why they can / can not be trusted. If you had asked why can't IKC implement XYZ used in GB I think this thread would have taken a very much different turn of events and could have taken a much more pleasant direction.

Lemlin

Nody wrote: »

Then we're in agreement (at least to a point ); a breeder club simply makes it more likely you'll get a responsible breeder but it does in no way guarantee it. The standard rules of "They should ask as many questions of you as you of them" apply along with relevant health tests, seeing the pup in with their mother etc. etc. because you can't trust anyone.

I also fully support and agree with your wish to change how IKC works; I think your suggestions above is a great example of what could be done and I commend you for it.

How ever and on a more personal level I think this thread degenerated far to much into IKC and why they can / can not be trusted. If you had asked why can't IKC implement XYZ used in GB I think this thread would have taken a very much different turn of events and could have taken a much more pleasant direction.

I take your points on board and I agree totally with the last point. However, I do think on this forum that we have a number of users who will support breed clubs and the IKC no matter what. My points are not about the IKC on this thread, they are more about the specific breed clubs themselves.

The fact is that unethical behaviour is happening and the posters here obviously know about it because not once has one tried to state that the examples I am giving are untrue or false. Instead they prefer to try and devalue my points by casting asperations about me and arguing the price of a ferry :rolleyes:

andreac

Lemlin wrote: »

I take your points on board and I agree totally with the last point. However, I do think on this forum that we have a number of users who will support breed clubs and the IKC no matter what. My points are not about the IKC on this thread, they are more about the specific breed clubs themselves.

The fact is that unethical behaviour is happening and the posters here obviously know about it because not once has one tried to state that the examples I am giving are untrue or false. Instead they prefer to try and devalue my points by casting asperations about me and arguing the price of a ferry :rolleyes:

Actually, we dont obviously know about it. You gave your examples of what you have heard. I totally agreed with you regarding giving out details of a breeder that didnt health test, yes of course that was wrong, and i stated that so why are you saying that we arent agreeing with you?

Like anything, there will always be good and bad so its up to people to make a judgement on the situation and make the right informed decision.

In our club, we dont recommend any breeders that dont health test, and that aren't reputable so i can only comment on what the club im involved in does.

Also, im far from a supporter of the IKC, actually theres a hell of a lot that they do that isnt good.

You cant seem to accept what lengths reputable breeders go to when raising a litter and the costs that is involved for us. You quoted prices of ferries that was incorrect, i merely corrected you on it as i have first hand experience on travelling by ferry.

Lemlin

andreac wrote: »

Actually, we dont obviously know about it. You gave your examples of what you have heard. I totally agreed with you regarding giving out details of a breeder that didnt health test, yes of course that was wrong, and i stated that so why are you saying that we arent agreeing with you?

Like anything, there will always be good and bad so its up to people to make a judgement on the situation and make the right informed decision.

In our club, we dont recommend any breeders that dont health test, and that aren't reputable so i can only comment on what the club im involved in does.

Also, im far from a supporter of the IKC, actually theres a hell of a lot that they do that isnt good.

You cant seem to accept what lengths reputable breeders go to when raising a litter and the costs that is involved for us. You quoted prices of ferries that was incorrect, i merely corrected you on it as i have first hand experience on travelling by ferry.

One was my own example of contacting a breed club and then contacting a breeder they told me to contact. It was not what I heard. It was my own first hand experience.

The other is an example of a man I spoke to myself. He did not expect the breed club to give out his details but the owner of the stud dog told him to ring the breed club and they'd do it. They never questioned him about his own dog. He was even surprised by it.

I might add these were two different breed clubs.

I do of course respect the lengths that breeders like yourself go to andreac. What I do not accept is the viewpoint that all breeders involved in breed clubs are going to these extraordinary lengths. Sleeping on fold out beds and taking 2 months off work is giving extreme examples of the work involved IMO.

And because I say that I don't think I can be labelled as having a "carefree" or "relaxed" attitude. I've said before that a vet at my own vet's practice commented on my pups by calling them the best litter she had seen in a while. I am also in regular contact with all 8 new owners and none have had any issues and are regularly complimented they tell me.

My point re the ferries is that I see dragging up the price as little more than an attempt to get away from the real issue at hand. Whether the price was £32 or the correct price of 300e, profit can be made from litters of pups, even by reputable breeders.

andreac

Lemlin wrote: »

One was my own example of contacting a breed club and then contacting a breeder they told me to contact. It was not what I heard. It was my own first hand experience.

The other is an example of a man I spoke to myself. He did not expect the breed club to give out his details but the owner of the stud dog told him to ring the breed club and they'd do it. They never questioned him about his own dog. He was even surprised by it.

I might add these were two different breed clubs.

I do of course respect the lengths that breeders like yourself go to andreac. What I do not accept is the viewpoint that all breeders involved in breed clubs are going to these extraordinary lengths. Sleeping on fold out beds and taking 2 months off work is giving extreme examples of the work involved IMO.

And because I say that I don't think I can be labelled as having a "carefree" or "relaxed" attitude. I've said before that a vet at my own vet's practice commented on my pups by calling them the best litter she had seen in a while. I am also in regular contact with all 8 new owners and none have had any issues and are regularly complimented they tell me.

My point re the ferries is that I see dragging up the price as little more than an attempt to get away from the real issue at hand. Whether the price was £32 or the correct price of 300e, profit can be made from litters of pups, even by reputable breeders.

I didnt take 2 months off work, i took two weeks and then had to pay someone to come in for the next 6 weeks when i went back to work. I dont think anyone can afford to take two months off work, i know i certainly couldnt.
You might think sleeping beside them is extreme, but i dont. For our breed its absolutely necessary to ensure pups make it through the first two weeks safe and no casualties happen.


But the real issue of this thread was the costs of breeding a litter was it not? You decided to derail it and start going on about ethical and unethical behaviour of breed clubs.

Yes a profit can be made when raising a litter, but not a whole lot and not as much as some people think. Because when it comes down to all the costs involved in raising a litter as i see fit, and as most other reputable breeders see, its not that much as you think.

I certainly would not be breeding my bitch again to try and make a profit as i dont know if i could ever put myself through that whole procedure and situation again just for money.

Lemlin

andreac wrote: »

I didnt take 2 months off work, i took two weeks and then had to pay someone to come in for the next 6 weeks when i went back to work. I dont think anyone can afford to take two months off work, i know i certainly couldnt.
You might think sleeping beside them is extreme, but i dont. For our breed its absolutely necessary to ensure pups make it through the first two weeks safe and no casualties happen.


But the real issue of this thread was the costs of breeding a litter was it not? You decided to derail it and start going on about ethical and unethical behaviour of breed clubs.

Yes a profit can be made when raising a litter, but not a whole lot and not as much as some people think. Because when it comes down to all the costs involved in raising a litter as i see fit, and as most other reputable breeders see, its not that much as you think.

I certainly would not be breeding my bitch again to try and make a profit as i dont know if i could ever put myself through that whole procedure and situation again just for money.

Other posters have mentioned needing 2 months off work or "putting their life on hold" to care for pups. I did not say you had. I remember your point because I raised the point that most people have family or friends and do not need to hire someone for help.

As I've said, I have no experience with your breed so I cannot comment on what is required and not required.

In regard to derailing the thread, I asked for the thread to be setup. The issue of club membership, shows etc. was raised by several posters in the early part of the thread. They listed this as a cost of breeding. The issue of breed clubs also ties directly into the cost of pups as it is they who point people towards people selling high cost pups. The two topics go hand in hand.

Therefore in my opinion there was no derailing of a thread that I asked to be setup. If you feel a thread is being derailed, use the report button and let the mods decide.

The costs of a litter were listed earlier in the thread and they struggled to get to even 50% of the 5k to 6k that some breeders can command for their pups. Some may make a small profit but others are making substantial profits, and are being aided by breed clubs in doing it.

You're an established and recognised member of a breed club, why do you continue to accept the status quo? If you know there are problems with the IKC and how dogs are bred, why not get together with a few other reps and challenge the system? Why not call for the measures the UK has started to introduce?

After all, you do state:

Also, im far from a supporter of the IKC, actually theres a hell of a lot that they do that isnt good.

muddypaws

Lemlin wrote: »

I know people who have travelled to the UK and further afield for dogs (Russia for example) but I did not get into the exact cost of the ferry with them. To be honest, the cost of the ferry is splitting hairs. I logged onto Irish Ferries and saw the price of a ferry. I've never travelled with a dog so do not know the other costs involved or even what costs there are. My point is that it isn't a huge extravagant cost to get a ferry. A train journey to some parts of the country would cost more.

I'm not just relating experiences of the people I know. I'm relating their experiences and experiences I've been told of. Again, you try this "we obviously move in different circles". What are you doing here other than trying to bring a negative connotation to the "circles" I move in? I'm not a member of any breed clubs so I don't move in any of those circles as such. I have plenty of friends however that do and I have friends who have champion dogs as I have said. Would these not be desirable "circles to move" in? Perople who have the best dog for their breed in the country?

I agree totally with you regarding the approved breeders scheme and it’s the sort of regulation that is needed. The problem is that sometimes those who present themselves as " snobby, elitist breeders" and who, I might add, are presented by breed clubs as "snobby, elitist breeders" are anything but. That is the point I am getting at.

You really do have a chip on your shoulder. Would you like me to introduce you to my friends, so that we can move in the same circles? Nowhere have I ever said anything about desirable circles, as you well know.

Guess what, I'm not a member of a breed club either. And no, people don't present themselves as snobby, elitist breeders, that is what they are called by others who don't breed responsibly.

You are saying people aren't answering your questions, yet you are the one that devalued the cost of raising a litter properly by posting completely the wrong price for a ferry crossing, so it would appear that you just pluck figures out of thin air, with no actual research. If you got that so wrong, the presumption could be made that all of your other costings are also wrong? Maybe if you actually posted correct information, then you would be at the cost that others on this thread are quoting. Its very, very easy to post incorrect information and then slate others - that is the point about the ferry costs, as you well know, and you are making a strawman argument.

snoman

Circles by their shape suggest exclusivity, thus implying those outside don't have the entry requirement...

Lemlin

muddypaws wrote: »

You really do have a chip on your shoulder. Would you like me to introduce you to my friends, so that we can move in the same circles? Nowhere have I ever said anything about desirable circles, as you well know.

Guess what, I'm not a member of a breed club either. And no, people don't present themselves as snobby, elitist breeders, that is what they are called by others who don't breed responsibly.

You are saying people aren't answering your questions, yet you are the one that devalued the cost of raising a litter properly by posting completely the wrong price for a ferry crossing, so it would appear that you just pluck figures out of thin air, with no actual research. If you got that so wrong, the presumption could be made that all of your other costings are also wrong? Maybe if you actually posted correct information, then you would be at the cost that others on this thread are quoting. Its very, very easy to post incorrect information and then slate others - that is the point about the ferry costs, as you well know, and you are making a strawman argument.

You don't have to state something to be nodding towards it. Why even bring what circles we move in into the topic? You are also the one who used the term "snobby, elitist breeders". I think you'll find I quoted your description. Again, I knew exactly what you were trying to do which is why I quoted it. You're not dealing with a neanderthal here. Just because you don't agree with my opinion doesn't make me an imbecile.

I posted two items incorrectly. I understated the ferry and overstated the cost of hip scores. Here's my list of costs, feel free to pick through them as you wish if you feel I am plucking them out of thin air:

Some of the costs from above:
Kennel name prefix - €150 for lifetime prefix and stands for multiple litters.

IKC membership - I paid €100 for lifetime membership a few years back myself. It used to be even cheaper and may be more expensive now.

Registration of pups - I can't remember off the top of my head but its €15 or €20 a pup. Less than €200 for 8 or 9 pups anyway.

Stud fee - as I've said above, this man got an IKC show champion for a pup in return.

Travel to Stud dog(e.g. Ferry, 3 hour drives each way) I don't use the local handy dog - I imagine it would be rare for breeders to travel to the UK for a stud dog. Most of the Labradors I see online for example are bred from other dogs in NI or ROI. They are from responsible breeders and are award winning dogs with FtCH, FTW and show champion titles. A ferry to the UK can be as little as €42 according to IrishFerries I might add.

Club membership, travelling etc. - as I've said, this is a cost related to your hobby, not to breeding. I wouldn't count the cost of feeding a dog as a cost of breeding for example.

Bitch testing, scan - €60 each I'd imagine. My own vet does a blood test for €65.

Support & advice for life of puppy - again, that costs nothing and is something all breeders should happily provide. I actually like to hear from people who have purchased a pup from me and love to get pictures etc.

Free Grooming - Hand Stripping: I would imagine very few breeders provide this.

Running heat lamps and non stop washing of bedding - the costs of these would be minimal. A farmer could have several heat lamps going with calves at once. A breeder will only have one for a week or so when the pups are first born.

Puppies are often fully vaccinated and wormed every two weeks - as I've said, wormer is €30 for drontal worming solution. Vaccinations here in Cavan would cost €310 for 8 pups for the first set with microchipping and then a further €150 for the second set at 10 weeks so less than €500 in total for vaccinations and chipping for 8 pups. It'd actually be €500 on the button for nine pups fully vaccinated with both vaccinations and microchips.

To be honest, you are the exception rather than the norm and I commend you for it. You've listed as many costs as you can and still are nowhere near what a breeder selling their pups for €600 or €650 would make from a litter if they had 8+ pups.

I'd be all for someone giving their list of costs if they wish to do so. The problem is, nobody has. My figures, where possible, I have posted from my own experience. I wouldn't see how I "devalued the cost of raising a litter" by posting the incorrect price of the ferry. Do you have percentages for how many breeders go to the UK for a stud dog? I would imagine it is the minority.

I've nothing to hide so I'm willing to post costs. If you ask me, its the people unwilling to put costs on these items that realise they are struggling in their argument - they know themselves all their costs will in no way add up to near the price a breeder will generally command for their pups.

If the best you can do to pick at my argument is to say I got a ferry price wrong, which I have already admitted to, then you are the one with the strawman argument.

DBB

Quite frankly, I don't know where to even start with this thread.
Lemlin, you asked for it to be set up.. as a result of derailing another thread don't forget.
And this thread has derailed to a degree that I can't even start to fathom. Soapboxing, back-seat moderating, going around in circles and circles... this thread has it all :mad:
That's quite apart from the glut of reported posts, some of which reminded me of schoolchildren cantering up to their teacher to tell tales on their yard-mates.
I despair.
And as both the thread, and the reported posts arising from it are just becoming too much of a timesink, I'm closing it now.
Thanks,
DBB