Fair Deal Scheme

cathorio

I have been told my elderly Mum who I have been looking after needs full time care.
I have been advised by the hospital about the Fair Deal Scheme which I have to apply for.
Can anyone tell me please are children who reside in the family home protected?
I have lived there all my life.

janmaree

My understanding is that they will postpone taking their percentage of the house value if there is someone like you in residence, I am in the same situation and have carefully read the forms from the hospital and that's what it says. It's like an extension of the original Fair Deal arrangement for your Mum, over to you instead, if you know what I mean? I stand to be corrected on this as I'm still caring for my parent at home and we haven't looked into it any further so far. If I were you, I'd either look at the forms and information sheets online on the Citizens Information website or drop in to your nearest office and ask them as they're very helpful and right up to speed on the current situation. All the best to you for now and I hope everything goes smoothly for you and your Mum.

cathorio

Janmaree my sincere appreciation for your kindness. You have been so helpful.

mick kk

Hi There
I have a fair deal related question...a relation is currently living at home. He has a carer. He is getting worse [Alzeihmers] but is still fine at home. However, it could happen that in 6 months for example he might need to be in a nursing home as his carer isn't able to lift him physically - at the moment he is mobile, but is getting worse.

Should we apply for the fair deal now, even though its not needed straight away i.e. to have it on standby so that if he suddenly goes downhill, we won't have to be waiting months for approval

Is this possible or do you have to wait until the patient needs to go to a nursing home
Thanks

cathorio

Hi Mick. If I were you I would at least fill out the forms as they are fairly lengthy and very detailed.
You need to have certain documentation + a house valuation done too.
It takes roughly ten weeks to process each application.
Even if your uncle is awarded the FDS you will still have to find a home willing to take him.
May I wish you and your uncle the very best of luck.

mick kk

Thanks so much cathario
I will do exactly what you said. He has got a lot worse in recent months so we just want to be prepared
Thanks again

cathorio

Mick, I know it's not easy having to make a decision like this. I am so thankful that it was taken out of my hands,,,,,,because of my Mum's 24/7 medical needs I had no other choice.
When you do decide to fill in the forms there is a Helpline.
Michael my thoughts and prayers are with you at this time.

CloneDreamer

Hi there,

I work with fair deal all the time in a hospital, There is deferral criteria for paying back the loan, one is if someone has been living in the residence and has been a carer for the person going to LTC you can apply for a deferral.. I would contact the nursing home support office in your area just to confirm.. Also you can choose to pay back the money and not sell the house to do so, so 7.5% the value year one 2 and 3..

Also when you are applying from home the public health nurse can help you coordinate it and get the care needs assessment completed, once it is approved (which can take a few months) it is valid for 6 months so it's a good back up plan in case circumstances change, also the waiting lists are v big especially in the Dublin area so it would all take months.. If the person is in hospital the social worker can help with all forms..

I know it's always a really difficult decision to make I wish ye all the best
And feel free to pm if you have any other questions..

janmaree

Thank you CloneDreamer, that's very helpful to hear from someone who is so familiar with the system. And it's thoughtful of you to share with us. Our family is right in the middle of the "whole shebang" at the moment but it can be a chicken and egg situation when the final outcome of a lengthy hospital stay is still unknown. It is a terrible worry and the stress levels are mounting daily. I hope you don't come to regret your P.M. offer because I can feel the need to hear things in plain English looming! So thank you again, we may end up "talking" soon!

Shivers1

Hi Clonedreamer would you mind if I Pm'd you with a query?

Or if anyone else can offer help?

My mother needs long term Nursing home care and she is quite young for this. Over the years she has been saving a real nest egg that means that she will still have to pay the full amount for a few years on the fair deal scheme.

Therefore I am wondering is it even worth the effort of going through it at all? Should we just pay for it out of her savings and save the hassle of the HSE going through all her stuff?

Would there be any advantage to me paying for it and claiming the 41% tax relief even though I would struggle with this?

So many questions.

janmaree

Hi Shivers1, you have my sympathy, believe me. We are in the middle of this too and it's so difficult to know what to do for the best. Clonedreamer very kindly invited pm's for any other queries so I would do that if I were you. Since your Mum is such a young woman, you could well be looking at many years of nursing home fees so getting all the advice you can before you make hard and fast decisions would be very sensible. If you have siblings, maybe you could put your heads together and work out how to share the fees, thereby spreading the burden rather than laying it all on the shoulders of one person. Anyway, try to contact Clonedreamer by pm and see what information he/she can share with you. I hope that you will come back and let us all know how things go for you and your Mum, knowledge is empowering and can help others facing into this life-change. I'll be thinking of you. J.

korkyu2

Hi,

I'm just reading up on the thread now as i am in the middle of filling the form out on behalf of my uncle.It has been very helpful to see all responses.
The situation my uncle is in is,that his health has deteriorated the last year or so to the point that he himself now recognises that he needs nursing home care.(he is in his 89th year and his mobility is almost completely gone).He has his own house,and he also has savings that will probably cover him for a couple of years in a nursing home. I'm just wondering,because he has these savings,is it worth all the hassle of filling out the form to be told that it will be of no benefit to him and also may delay his chance of getting a place in a home.Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanking you in advance.

janmaree

korkyu2 wrote: »

Hi,

I'm just reading up on the thread now as i am in the middle of filling the form out on behalf of my uncle.It has been very helpful to see all responses.
The situation my uncle is in is,that his health has deteriorated the last year or so to the point that he himself now recognises that he needs nursing home care.(he is in his 89th year and his mobility is almost completely gone).He has his own house,and he also has savings that will probably cover him for a couple of years in a nursing home. I'm just wondering,because he has these savings,is it worth all the hassle of filling out the form to be told that it will be of no benefit to him and also may delay his chance of getting a place in a home.Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanking you in advance.

I can't really help you very much as we didn't actually apply for it ourselves in the end, our situation was too urgent to wait for the process as our parent was not receiving good care in the hospital and we wanted him out of there asap. The one thing I DO know is that if your Uncle is still mentally capable of making his own decisions then you should proceed with the process anyway OR ask him to give you enduring power of attorney through his solicitor so that you can apply on his behalf at a later date, if it proves necessary. At the moment, the person in question must be mentally fit and able to engage in the process as he strictly speaking is the one making the application whether you fill up the forms for him or not. We don't have this and now my Dad can't assign it to us if he wanted to. You don't realise how vital it is until you need it and by then it's often too late. It's a big leap of faith for the "patient" but it matters. Wish I could help more but good luck to you. BTW, I hope his savings are substantial if he plans to pay privately because those bills mount up and the money doesn't take long to trickle away. It's your call of course but I wouldn't rule out proceeding with the application now, as I said, he may not be able to agree later on and he needs to, or you will have to go to the Courts to make him a ward of court in order for important decisions to be made and if that's what you end up doing, it won't be you making those decisions, as I understand it.

korkyu2

Hi janmaree,

Thank you for your quick response. I'm sorry to hear that your dad was not receiving the care that he should have been,and deserved,especially from a hospital.My uncles mental state is 100% so the final decision was down to him,which i am glad of as it is a tough decision to have to admit anyone into a nursing home.As it stands we are going to progress with the filling out of the form (90% done at this stage) so to have your advice on this is invaluable.It is true what you say,he may not be able to agree later on so now is the time to do it.As he would be a very private man,i just hope i am giving them the information that they need through the form and nothing that i shouldn't be.These things unnerve me sometimes as it is not my information to be giving.In the end,i suppose you have to give the information they require as well.Hopefully it all works out for him.

janmaree,i am very grateful for your response and your information is of great help.I wish you and your family all the best and thanks again.

Melendez

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collins_m_Lisa

My grandmother has been in a nursing home the past year and signed up to the fair deal scheme. I just have a question on the contribution, particularly the part from her principal private residence. My understanding is that after three years she will no longer have to make the contribution which comes from her home. If my grandmother was to sell her house on the market today would the money she gets from this be then classified as her savings and thus she would be contributing from this?

Also if she held off and didn't sell until after the three years would the money she got then still be classified as savings and she would need to make a contribution from that?

Foggy Jew

Very interesting questions Lisa. My dad is availing of the FD scheme. My motheris still alive & living at home in the family home. To assess my dads contribution, they added his pension & her pension together, then halved it so that each party had 50% of the income. Of my dad's 50%, they take 80% of that as his contribution.

If my mother were to pass away & the house sold - three 7.5%'s of the proceeds would be owed to the HSE, for the first three years of his care. Prior to the Fair Deal getting approval, we had to provide a certified valuation of the house. For handiness sake - I'll say it was valued at €100,000.

So, if my dad stayed in care for any longer than 3 years, when the house is eventually sold, there would be a bill due to the HSE of €7,500 + €7,500 + €7,500 (total of €22,500), regardless of how many years he was there. Interestingly, fluctuations in house prices will not affect this figure - they will proceed on the basis of the original valuation.

Thats a long winded way of saying that once 80% of income is being paid, and once 3 x 7.5%'s of the original house valuation is paid - whatever remains belongs to the resident. At least, thats my reading of it.... I'd love to know if others agree with me.

Melendez

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Masala

Once the house is sold, it is my understanding that the proceeds become a cash asset like any other and are not ring-fenced under "property".

I think they get the owner to sign a 'lien' or 'charge' that gets legally registered against the property and has therefore first draw on any sale proceeds.

Masala

I suppose for any of us who have 'younger' parents (in 60's-70's) the prudent thing to do is to get the property (that we are all presuming will be left to share among the children!) transferred over NOW and hope that there will be 5 years before there could be any talk of going into a home for any of the parents .

(jez.. I hate even to be typing this reply!! )

There can be no charge on property if disposed in previous 5 years.

The downside is that there would have to be a valuation of the property now and all costs of Water / property Tax/ Insurance etc would fall on the children to prove ownership if queried later.......

Melendez

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Melendez

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collins_m_Lisa

So am I correct in saying if she sold before the three years or after the three years either way it makes no difference. Either way the proceeds will become cash assets and from that she'll need to make her contribution.

looksee

Not sure if I am following all this, but if one did the transfer of property to heirs part, then it would not be possible to enter the 'fair deal' scheme? If a nursing home were necessary, how much better would it be to just sell the property and use the proceeds?

Melendez

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ballybro

Hi my Dad has been in hospital for 1 month and it looks like if he gets out he will need full time care. It wont be possible for us his family to provide this at home so we need to look for a nursing home. There is a nursing home that we like that's costs approx €850 per week.

His financial situation is
Weekly pension €225
Value of his house approx €200,000 (but may be less based on valuation)
Savings approx €5000.

I'm wondering how the fair deal scheme would work out for us and what's the max he/we (myself + 2 sisters) would have to contribute under this scheme.
Also based on the contribution on top of his pension that we would be paying.Im wondering if I paid this contribution on our behalf could I get tax relief on it as I pay some tax at the higher rate @ 41 as so further reduce the overall amount it would cost us.
Can this tax relief be obtained as a weekly or monthly tax credit so that I wouldn't have to wait till the end of the tax year to get it.
Thanks

Masala

ballybro wrote: »

Hi my Dad has been in hospital for 1 month and it looks like if he gets out he will need full time care. It wont be possible for us his family to provide this at home so we need to look for a nursing home. There is a nursing home that we like that's costs approx €850 per week.

His financial situation is
Weekly pension €225
Value of his house approx €200,000 (but may be less based on valuation)
Savings approx €5000.

I'm wondering how the fair deal scheme would work out for us and what's the max he/we (myself + 2 sisters) would have to contribute under this scheme.
Also based on the contribution on top of his pension that we would be paying.Im wondering if I paid this contribution on our behalf could I get tax relief on it as I pay some tax at the higher rate @ 41 as so further reduce the overall amount it would cost us.
Can this tax relief be obtained as a weekly or monthly tax credit so that I wouldn't have to wait till the end of the tax year to get it.
Thanks

Don't think there are any reliefs still at 41%!!!! I think this would be limited to 20%.

On the fair deal....my understanding is:
1. Your dads first €35000 of savings is discounted for any calculations.
2. He will have to hand over 80% of his pension to the home every week
3. He seems to be liable to contribute 7.5% of his property (200k x 7.5%) = €15000 per year for first 3 years. You can defer this payment by entering into a 'loan arrangement' with the HSE who will defer this €45,000 til the property is either transferred (say on death) or sold. However - this will then be payable to the Revenue Commissioners and I think they only give 6 months to settle same as soon as property is transferred or sold.

NOTE: I am only learning as I go along myself so I can stand corrected if anyone wants to step in here and do so!!