Brendan Rodgers: ‘16 is too old for Irish footballers to come to Britain’

Madworld

http://www.irishpost.co.uk/sport/brendan-rodgers-16-old-irish-footballers-come-britain

Now that we've slipped to our lowest ever FIFA ranking, should we re-examine how we approach our youth strategy? Should we be looking to get our players to Britain earlier? Should we get behind our domestic league more? Or should we start to look further afield get our most talented young players into youth systems in places like France or Germany?

Paz-CCFC

Encouraging children of younger than 16 to emigrate sounds pretty disgusting, to be honest.

smileyj1987

Paz-CCFC wrote: »

Encouraging children of younger than 16 to emigrate sounds pretty disgusting, to be honest.

Not really at all . Now a days a club provide more then a chance to become a player . They also offer you a good education also . So I don't see the harm in it . 99% of us would love to be a professional football but we don't have the ability so I don't think it's that bad at all to move under the age of 16 .

MD1990

He is correct.You need to get the best coaching as early as possible if u want to make it.

CSF

MD1990 wrote: »

He is correct.You need to get the best coaching as early as possible if u want to make it.

You don't need to. But it helps.

CSF

smileyj1987 wrote: »

Not really at all . Now a days a club provide more then a chance to become a player . They also offer you a good education also . So I don't see the harm in it . 99% of us would love to be a professional football but we don't have the ability so I don't think it's that bad at all to move under the age of 16 .

You're definitely looking at this from the perspective of the players who make it rather than those who are chewed up and spat out.

If you make it and become a rich pro footballer it's a great move, if you don't it's a bit of a disaster.

Lovely Bloke

CSF wrote: »

You're definitely looking at this from the perspective of the players who make it rather than those who are chewed up and spat out.

If you make it and become a rich pro footballer it's a great move, if you don't it's a bit of a disaster.

yeah but who cares about the ones who don't make it? They are nobodies really.

smileyj1987

CSF wrote: »

You're definitely looking at this from the perspective of the players who make it rather than those who are chewed up and spat out.

If you make it and become a rich pro footballer it's a great move, if you don't it's a bit of a disaster.

Not really at all ! The clubs have a duty of care towards under 18 players where they have to educate them too so they have a shot of becoming a professional footballer while also getting a good education .

Amirani

MD1990 wrote: »

He is correct.You need to get the best coaching as early as possible if u want to make it.

Because England has a fantastic record of producing top class young players in recent years?

Seamus Coleman and James McCarthy, our two best players, didn't move to England before the age of 16. I think this proves your absolute statement to be false. It can help, but it's not completely necessary.

The Backwards Man

Yeah, Brendan is right. Look what a flop Seamus Coleman had been. Never even played for an Irish under-age side before the U21s. Doesn't matter how old you are, if you're good enough you're good enough.

Amirani

smileyj1987 wrote: »

Not really at all ! The clubs have a duty of care towards under 18 players where they have to educate them too so they have a shot of becoming a professional footballer while also getting a good education .

And what about the rest of the player's family? Are they moving too or is he abandoning his family at 14?

Lovely Bloke

A growing number of Ireland first teamers have played in the LoI, pretty soon we'll have regular LoI players in the team I think.

CSF

smileyj1987 wrote: »

Not really at all ! The clubs have a duty of care towards under 18 players where they have to educate them too so they have a shot of becoming a professional footballer while also getting a good education .

Getting the minimum standards of education that clubs are compelled to offer isn't particularly a key step towards a fruitful life.

Even with that said, there's a lot more to it than that. The weight of expectation is huge over there for a kid and when you come back you come back having failed.

I know a few lads, who have gone and come back and they definitely are worse off for it and would admit as much themselves. If they make it it's the greatest thing they ever did I'm sure but the margins are a fine line.

Seaneh

I think rather than shipping children across the channel we'd be better served by having a proper youth coaching system that fed into out national league a la Switzerland, Belgium, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Scotland and other countries of similar size.

CSF

Seaneh wrote: »

I think rather than shipping children across the channel we'd be better served by having a proper youth coaching system that fed into out national league a la Switzerland, Belgium, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Scotland and other countries of similar size.

Not a realistic suggestion unfortunately.

Agueroooo

The Backwards Man wrote: »

Yeah, Brendan is right. Look what a flop Seamus Coleman had been. Never even played for an Irish under-age side before the U21s. Doesn't matter how old you are, if you're good enough you're good enough.

That's a really bad example tbh.

It's not like the 80's and 90's and before when the kids that didn't make it ending up at 18,19,20 years of age with not a junior or leaving cert level to their name, and their prospects looked bleak.

Kids today get educated alongside their football development with all the resources available for them. Yes some kids still dont but that is where the patents need to play their critical role, but modern day clubs have liaison staff to make sure that the kids get everything they need in life.

Rodgers point (imo) is that at 16 an Irish kid may find themselves already behind their English and European peers as some of the elite players would have been scouted and in the system for many years before them.

Again it's not like years ago that churned out a few diamonds but also produced lots of kids thrown on the scrap heap.

dan1895

CSF wrote: »

Not a realistic suggestion unfortunately.

Only because of the culture that exists within certain schoolboy clubs of exporting as many kids as possible.

Amirani

Agueroooo wrote: »

That's a really bad example tbh.

Why exactly is Coleman a "really bad example"?

MD1990

Diego Simeone wrote: »

Because England has a fantastic record of producing top class young players in recent years?

Seamus Coleman and James McCarthy, our two best players, didn't move to England before the age of 16. I think this proves your absolute statement to be false. It can help, but it's not completely necessary.

I used the wrong word saying u need.But I think it will help moving before the age of 16.

MagicMarker

The Backwards Man wrote: »

Yeah, Brendan is right. Look what a flop Seamus Coleman had been. Never even played for an Irish under-age side before the U21s. Doesn't matter how old you are, if you're good enough you're good enough.

A naive view really.

Some people aren't just "good enough", but with the proper training they can be, but if they don't get that training until they're 16 then they lag behind.

Agueroooo

Seaneh wrote: »

I think rather than shipping children across the channel we'd be better served by having a proper youth coaching system that fed into out national league a la Switzerland, Belgium, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Scotland and other countries of similar size.

That is utopia and the absolute best solution but how many decades have we known and wanted this?

The biggest league in the World is a only couple of hundred miles away and forever will attract Ireland's elite youth I'm afraid.

brevity

His sentiment is right (in that it's important to start early) but choosing Britain as a destination might not be the best place to improve considering the way youth players are developed in Britain.

CSF

Agueroooo wrote: »

That's a really bad example tbh.

It's not like the 80's and 90's and before when the kids that didn't make it ending up at 18,19,20 years of age with not a junior or leaving cert level to their name, and their prospects looked bleak.

Kids today get educated alongside their football development with all the resources available for them. Yes some kids still dont but that is where the patents need to play their critical role, but modern day clubs have liaison staff to make sure that the kids get everything they need in life.

Rodgers point (imo) is that at 16 an Irish kid may find themselves already behind their English and European peers as some of the elite players would have been scouted and in the system for many years before them.

Again it's not like years ago that churned out a few diamonds but also produced lots of kids thrown on the scrap heap.

Clubs meet minimum standards in terms of education for the most part. Do you really think the pressure is on players to get great A levels, or to make the grade on the pitch?

If you succeed in the academy you're sorted, but if you think footballers come out of there having failed as footballers but unhindered otherwise then you're living in dreamland or haven't much experience on the topic.

Amirani

brevity wrote: »

His sentiment is right (in that it's important to start early) but choosing Britain as a destination might not be the best place to improve considering the way youth players are developed in Britain.

In fairness, that has improved of late. Their track record in this regard has been appalling in the past though.

The Backwards Man

MagicMarker wrote: »

A naive view really.

Some people aren't just "good enough", but with the proper training they can be, but if they don't get that training until they're 16 then they lag behind.

Some people get mental money spent on their development from they are eight years old and they still couldn't find a pass in a nursing home. Equally naive IMO.

CSF

brevity wrote: »

His sentiment is right (in that it's important to start early) but choosing Britain as a destination might not be the best place to improve considering the way youth players are developed in Britain.

Expecting a 14 year old to learn a new language and way of life while under that amount of pressure would be all the more crazy.

DM_7

Agueroooo wrote: »

That is utopia and the absolute best solution but how many decades have we known and wanted this?

The biggest league in the World is a only couple of hundred miles away and forever will attract Ireland's elite youth I'm afraid.

So the other countries referenced don't have massive leagues beside them?

A structure that teaches Children properly so that they can have maximum opportunity when they are young adults is not utopia, as proven by other countries who have achieved it.

CSF

DM-ICE wrote: »

So the other countries referenced don't have massive leagues beside them?

A structure that teaches Children properly so that they can have maximum opportunity when they are young adults is not utopia, as proven by other countries who have achieved it.

Yeah but who is gonna implement said structure and how?

MagicMarker

The Backwards Man wrote: »

Some people get mental money spent on their development from they are eight years old and they still couldn't find a pass in a nursing home. Equally naive IMO.

Okay, well no one is talking about those people.

The Backwards Man

MagicMarker wrote: »

Okay, well no one is talking about those people.

Well, they should be, because there is a hell of a lot more of them than the ones that make it.

losthorizon

Madworld wrote: »

http://www.irishpost.co.uk/sport/brendan-rodgers-16-old-irish-footballers-come-britain

Now that we've slipped to our lowest ever FIFA ranking, should we re-examine how we approach our youth strategy? Should we be looking to get our players to Britain earlier? Should we get behind our domestic league more? Or should we start to look further afield get our most talented young players into youth systems in places like France or Germany?

The reason they are struggling is because they havent played senior football in Ireland not because they are going over too late. A 16 year old will still not have played LOI football. In many ways those who have gone over at a later age seem to be more mature and do better.


His thinking seems to be muddled if you ask me.

wadacrack

Th level of coaching nees to improve here and then a 16 year old irish player may not be so far behind their european counterparts. Look at the way the belgium system has worked despite a small population and poor league. The standard of league of ireland and junior football also needs to improve. They all feed of one another

wadacrack

"I think it’s about that education before they come over" Rodgers isindicating that teh level of coaching here needs to improve. the mentality of players needs to be looked at, how bad do they want it compared to a south american players.

kevthegaff

Imagine how good coleman would have been if he had gone to england earlier!

Big Bucks

kevthegaff wrote: »

Imagine how good coleman would have been if he had gone to england earlier!

Why do you say that?? He got a chance to play competitive league football as an 18 year old something which he wouldnt have got a chance to do. He regularly references his time with Rovers as making it easier for him to adapt when he did get to England. He could have just as easily went over there as a 14 year and not adapted to it and could have been spat out by a system in which less than 1% of players make it to the level he is at now.

losthorizon

wadacrack wrote: »

Th level of coaching nees to improve here and then a 16 year old irish player may not be so far behind their european counterparts. Look at the way the belgium system has worked despite a small population and poor league. The standard of league of ireland and junior football also needs to improve. They all feed of one another

So the Belgium system hasnt worked if they have a poor league.

Belgium used to be a much stronger footballing nation in the past.

Often you see that youngsters who go to England far too young and dont make it end up back in Ireland. You often find them trialing for LOI clubs or playing a few games here and they just cant hack the standard over here either.

wadacrack

losthorizon wrote: »

So the Belgium system hasnt worked if they have a poor league.

Belgium used to be a much stronger footballing nation in the past.

Often you see that youngsters who go to England far too young and dont make it end up back in Ireland. You often find them trialing for LOI clubs or playing a few games here and they just cant hack the standard over here either.

The standard of the league of irelnad needs to improve and if this was case young players in the 20-22 could then progress to england and be well equipped to adapt. Football has moved on the standard much higher now. Belgium have currently a golden generation despite a poor league albeit much much higher than the league of ireland

dreamers75

wadacrack wrote: »

The standard of the league of irelnad needs to improve and if this was case young players in the 20-22 could then progress to england and be well equipped to adapt. Football has moved on the standard much higher now. Belgium have currently a golden generation despite a poor league albeit much much higher than the league of ireland

Disagree there LOI is at its highest standard in years mainly due to coaching in Ireland coming on leaps and bounds, there are loads of decent coaches in Dublin who are creating players.

Go watch any of the top 6 in ireland and you will see it, LSL and AUL matches are decent to watch because the standard of player is improving every year.

And I would fancy us against Belgians in CL, shame we wont get them. We have beaten Belgian teams in Europe before.

From a youth point we are moving towards an LOI player playing for england, England are moving towards a Champo player playing for England.

/In dublin so see 1st hand what goes on with my kids and its impressive. Especially the FAIs emerging talent program, some seriously talented footballers in it.

Francie Barrett

As usual, people are missing the point completely.

Right now, it's beyond question that the standard of football in Ireland is in decline vis-a-vis to the rest of the world. If people want to engage in willy-waving by using the examples of Coleman and McCarthy as demonstrations that everything is alright in Irish football, then they're deluded. Looking at the situation as a whole, there is very little to be positive about.

- The number of minutes that Irish players are playing in the Premier League and Championship is down, the number of minutes in the Scottish Premier League is up. Irish players are clearly not able to compete at the highest level anymore and are dropping down to poorer quality leagues (http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/english/2013/1010/479533-study/).
- Internationally we are no longer even remotely competitive against the top nations in Europe and many of the second (and even third tier) of nations are ahead of us. Qualification for an expanded European Championships looks grim.
- Champions league participation has went from a handful of players to almost none (think it would be a stretch to say Anthony Stokes is good enough).

The system is clearly failing, but the point that Rodgers is making is that we're waiting far too late to be giving our young players the training/education that they need. If you look at Barcelona as an example, some of their players started with the club at 8 or 9 years of age. Unless a player is with the likes of St Kevin's or the few clubs who would have coaches of a high quality who hold UEFA qualifications, then most of our kids who are sent over to England at 16 could easily have missed 8 years of professional training and coaching. I can understand why some of our kids would end up wanting to come home, trying to compete with lads who've had this kind of coaching and training would be ferocious.

The trend in world football (and all sports) is to get players at younger and younger ages.If you thought it was mental that Barcelona brought Messi over to Spain at 13, then remember that they're now bringing players over from abroad at 8 or 9 (remember John Joe Finn and Zak Gilsenan). You can debate the morals of this if you want, but if Ireland wants to maximize their chances of success, then we need to start focusing on players at a younger age. That means either develop facilities here, or else send kids abroad.

Francie Barrett

dreamers75 wrote: »

And I would fancy us against Belgians in CL, shame we wont get them. We have beaten Belgian teams in Europe before.

Can't say I share your confidence. Ireland finished as the lowest ranked team in all of Europe on co-efficient points this year - http://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/data/method4/ccoef2014.html

I know it's a little artificially low as we had a seeded team, but even taking that into account, we're way, way behind Belgian football.

eagle eye

The reason there are less players making it at the top level is more down to worldwide scouting networks and players from foreign countries coming to the UK at a young age. Its got nothing to do with kids going over to England at a younger age.

The Premier League teams that won the title back in the early 90s were full of players from the home countries. That is not the case anymore with Manchester City only having one regular starter in their team from the home countries. There were others who played some games for them but when they had a fully fit squad the only player from the home countries starting for them was Joe Harte. Chelsea who finished third only had three at most who would start with everybody fit.

Its well known how badly things went for some young players years ago when they didn't make it and fell down through the English football system whereas staying in school and getting a good education behind them would have lead to better lives.

If you want to come on here and give out about players not going abroad earlier there is a simple answer. Get up off you backside and go out and get involved in coaching. Get some badges and make a difference. If there were enough people properly qualified as coaches and out working with kids we would have a much better national team in 10 years time and kids wouldn't have to go abroad younger to make it.

The biggest problem in this country is that soccer is not our national sport. The majority of kids are involved in GAA first and foremost at a younger age. There are lots of people involved in that organisation and its why it continues to thrive. So get out there and do something if you want improvement.

Sirsok

My cousin currently plays for Ireland and villa youth teams, in regards to education he said there is mandatory schooling however all they did was do crosswords and didn't recieve any proper lessons or schooling at all

Agueroooo

I'm heavily involved in schoolboy football and Francie's post above has hit the nail on the head.

Its easy to react to the title of this thread but read the article and the point Rodgers I'd trying to make.

Some kids are gifted.plain and simple...and they potentially (and are) getting left behind in recent times, and we may not see some real World Class talent reach its potential.

Things have moved on in the world of scouting and development of school boy football.

again I emphasis that there are now so many better structures in place for kids to also develop their education alongside their football, and even compared to 10,15yrs ago it's chalk and cheese.

wadacrack

The league of Irelands coefficent has dropped massively in the last number of years indicating the standard has not improved at all. Junior football it is harder to tell. There is a alot of coaching down the country and with the 50km rule it means talented players down the country cannot join St Kevins or Home farm etc. The way things are going Ireland national team may have to rely of selecting a few players from the league of Ireland at with the standrad of teh league at the minute they would not belong at International level. The Belgium league is definately stronger. Clubb Brugge, Standard Liege and Anderlecht would beat any league of Ireland side convincinly

Amirani

wadacrack wrote: »

The league of Irelands coefficent has dropped massively in the last number of years indicating the standard has not improved at all.

That's a logical fallacy. If you were going to use that argument, you'd surely have to talk about relative standards rather than absolute standards.

Also, I'm not sure there's clear correlations between UEFA coefficient performance and coaching standards for young footballers within a country, there's more than likely not given England's performance in the past. Even if this correlation did exist, there's many other factors to consider before making the massive leap to a statistical conclusion that you just did.

Fescue

Would it be possible for the FAI to establish regional "Centres of Excellence"?

3 or 4 around the country perhaps where kids who show promise could receive quality coaching.

wadacrack

Diego Simeone wrote: »

That's a logical fallacy. If you were going to use that argument, you'd surely have to talk about relative standards rather than absolute standards.

Also, I'm not sure there's clear correlations between UEFA coefficient performance and coaching standards for young footballers within a country, there's more than likely not given England's performance in the past. Even if this correlation did exist, there's many other factors to consider before making the massive leap to a statistical conclusion that you just did.

"This period of improvement came to an end in 2010 with the league's ranking dropping. From 29th in 2010, it dropped to 31st in 2011, 33rd in 2012, 36th in 2013 and 43rd for the 2014 ranking" It is a relevant statistic that the standard of the league of ireland has dropped or in fact not progressed like the rest of europe has. u16 to u21 level we are not making the elite stages of competition while this is difficult . How many players Irish players are playing in the u19 Uefa Champions league is not enough. The mentality of players at the younger age is not good enough at the moment more education on nutrition strength and conditioning at an early age needs to be introduced. The game is about technical ability but also you need to be a good athlete. Futsal and small sided football should be promoted so players have more actions per minute at an early age.Ajax and Barcelona academies encourage young players players to do Judo and Gymnastics to help them athletically. There is of course some great work being done we just need more it and to be build a stronger culture of appropiate coaching and structures

Amirani

Again, drops in the UEFA coefficient table are indication in declines in relative standards, not declines in standards. Whether they actually are a true indication of this is another matter, leagues ranked outside the top 20 in UEFA tend to play very few games in Europe, so the sample size is very small. Rises and falls in the rankings can be attributed to many factors, not necessarily a decline in standard of that league.

My other point is that poorer performances in Europe don't really say anything about youth coaching. Seamus Coleman, Shane Long, Stephen Ward, Kevin Doyle and James McClean barely played in Europe or did anything notable, largely because their clubs weren't the most successful around when they were there. Most of England's good young players have come from Southampton and Liverpool. How do English European results say anything about the quality of these players? I really don't believe that UEFA coefficients are a good barometer of youth coaching standards in domestic football. Does the fact that there's more LOI players in current squads than ever before not say more about that?

losthorizon

Francie Barrett wrote: »

Can't say I share your confidence. Ireland finished as the lowest ranked team in all of Europe on co-efficient points this year - http://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/data/method4/ccoef2014.html

I know it's a little artificially low as we had a seeded team, but even taking that into account, we're way, way behind Belgian football.

Thats not what that table is showing.

wadacrack

Diego Simeone wrote: »

Again, drops in the UEFA coefficient table are indication in declines in relative standards, not declines in standards. Whether they actually are a true indication of this is another matter, leagues ranked outside the top 20 in UEFA tend to play very few games in Europe, so the sample size is very small. Rises and falls in the rankings can be attributed to many factors, not necessarily a decline in standard of that league.

My other point is that poorer performances in Europe don't really say anything about youth coaching. Seamus Coleman, Shane Long, Stephen Ward, Kevin Doyle and James McClean barely played in Europe or did anything notable, largely because their clubs weren't the most successful around when they were there. Most of England's good young players have come from Southampton and Liverpool. How do English European results say anything about the quality of these players? I really don't believe that UEFA coefficients are a good barometer of youth coaching standards in domestic football. Does the fact that there's more LOI players in current squads than ever before not say more about that?

I was talking about the standrad of league of Ireland football not youth coaching. Poorer performances in Europe indicate that the top team in the LOI have not prgressed like the rest of europe.With a stronger league in Ireland the transition to a higher level will be easier and more managable. English team in the top 4 have a lack of english players u cant compare that to teh league of ireland teams who have a much higher percentage of irish players. It will be interesting to see how the u19 LOI helps with bringing through talent to the league of ireland and england.

losthorizon

People keep on going on about how Belgium have improved but ten years ago their league was higher in UEFA Co-efficiency league table.

In the 1980s and 70s they had league clubs you would fear. Thats all gone. Sometimes you just happen to get a few good players coming up together. Thats just chance. But Belgium by and large has presided over the the decline of their domestic structure.

Denmark and Norway havent on the other hand. They are lower down the ratings. Dont export youngsters and every now and again you see a club doing quite well in Europe. Plus they have quite nice stadiums. Branns is a beauty and so is Rosenborgs from my visit there.