Brendan Rodgers: ‘16 is too old for Irish footballers to come to Britain’

Fescue

losthorizon wrote: »

People keep on going on about how Belgium have improved but ten years ago their league was higher in UEFA Co-efficiency league table.

In the 1980s and 70s they had league clubs you would fear. Thats all gone. Sometimes you just happen to get a few good players coming up together. Thats just chance. But Belgium by and large has presided over the the decline of their domestic structure.

Denmark and Norway havent on the other hand. They are lower down the ratings. Dont export youngsters and every now and again you see a club doing quite well in Europe. Plus they have quite nice stadiums. Branns is a beauty and so is Rosenborgs from my visit there.

The Dutch has a fantastic youth set up I believe but they have struggled to produce top quality players in the last few years. I guess it could just be cycles.

AgileMyth

Playing competitive league football here is better for young players than sitting in reserves over there and getting sent out on short term loans.

Its not a coincidence that Ireland's best player was here playing every week into his early 20's.

inforfun

Rodgers might not be wrong but U16 Irish players should look elsewhere than going to the UK if they really want to improve.

The Dutch players that were stolen by EPL clubs from Feyenoord would have done much better had they stayed in Holland longer.

TheDoc

AgileMyth wrote: »

Playing competitive league football here is better for young players than sitting in reserves over there and getting sent out on short term loans.

Its not a coincidence that Ireland's best player was here playing every week into his early 20's.

Who are we labelling Irelands best player?

Cause the two best I regard as being the best, while were good, didn't properly develop and become good players until they went to England.

As someone whose gone through that system first hand, didn't make it and came back, I would agree with rogers comments.

I had my chance at 17, relatively young yet for the club I went to, most of the players were in the acadamy since eleven years of age.

It was on a trial basis, and in the end while they felt I had good potential and was far advanced in certain areas over my peers (Goalkeeper) there was concerns over my weight and keeping it off. Food, diet and nutrition was something never discussed in the slightest at my club.

So at the end of the day they had the choice of putting time and effort into me to get my weight down to what they wanted and keep it there, or just pick one of the other keepers there on trial, who might have been "slightly" lower then me in terms of certain abilities, but yet had arleady the understanding and education in fitness and the nutrition.

Other players from my local team had various trials here and there, and while at the time they didn't really comprahend, now we are older and wiser, we can see that what was coached here was lightyears away from what was coached in England. It was more relevant for friends who played outfield, but here the game was a very basic 4-4-2 where the emphasis was on hard tackling, "winning the second ball" and when in doubt, just lump it. There was no encouragement for possesion or trying things, and losing the ball got you a bollocking so people just hoofed it the minute they got under pressure, rather then try make a pass.

Granted this was all ten years ago, I'm still somewhat involved as a spectator watching the local schoolboy teams as friends are involved as coaches and watching the senior games. Looks like much hasn't changed.

Paz-CCFC

TheDoc wrote: »

Who are we labelling Irelands best player?

Cause the two best I regard as being the best, while were good, didn't properly develop and become good players until they went to England.

Presume you're talking about Robbie Keane and Shane Long? It's not like Long was useless when he left City and then became a superstar upon crossing the Irish Sea. He was highly regarded as one of the best up-and-coming youngsters and would probably have broken into City's first team had Doyle left and he didn't. If he were a first teamer, playing full-time professional football in a hugely competitive league in 2005 and 2006, along with UEFA Cup and Champions League football, it certainly would have done him no harm, and he'd probably be in the same position he's in now.

As someone whose gone through that system first hand, didn't make it and came back, I would agree with rogers comments.

I had my chance at 17, relatively young yet for the club I went to, most of the players were in the acadamy since eleven years of age.

It was on a trial basis, and in the end while they felt I had good potential and was far advanced in certain areas over my peers (Goalkeeper) there was concerns over my weight and keeping it off. Food, diet and nutrition was something never discussed in the slightest at my club.

So at the end of the day they had the choice of putting time and effort into me to get my weight down to what they wanted and keep it there, or just pick one of the other keepers there on trial, who might have been "slightly" lower then me in terms of certain abilities, but yet had arleady the understanding and education in fitness and the nutrition.

Other players from my local team had various trials here and there, and while at the time they didn't really comprahend, now we are older and wiser, we can see that what was coached here was lightyears away from what was coached in England. It was more relevant for friends who played outfield, but here the game was a very basic 4-4-2 where the emphasis was on hard tackling, "winning the second ball" and when in doubt, just lump it. There was no encouragement for possesion or trying things, and losing the ball got you a bollocking so people just hoofed it the minute they got under pressure, rather then try make a pass.

Did yourself or any of your team-mates get a go in the League of Ireland when ye came back home?

Demosthenese

Rodgers is talking about the hole package of being a footballer, living as a footballer and being educated to be a professional footballer. Unfortunately if you have missed out on these basics from their point of view then you will struggle to learn at a later age - obviously there are exceptions to the rule, Coleman/Long and a few that developed late, but to be at a top club you need to be technically brilliant - and you learn that from a very young age.

He had another article out on this where he stated that you had youngsters that come from other countries that are 100% all in to try become a professional player - they move lock stock and barrell and do not think about their home. Whereas he found the Irish lads get homesick and were not as totally committed. That taken in context in my opinion reflects the kid off the street from a possibly poorer country trying to go away and make something from himself versus the Irish kid who lives a comfortable life.

We have bus loads of kids making the journey to England every year but only the best of the best will make that grade and it is logical that you need to be committing yourself at a younger age to try make the dream.

Of course i would argue that we have made great improvements to our schoolboys training and development over the past 5 years in particular. Everywhere you go now we have qualified coaches teaching the kids, plenty of teams we come up against are moving away from the hoof ball tactics of old. It is a far cry from when i grew up and hopefully continues.

Demosthenese

Demosthenese wrote: »

Rodgers is talking about the hole package of being a footballer, living as a footballer and being educated to be a professional footballer. Unfortunately if you have missed out on these basics from their point of view then you will struggle to learn at a later age - obviously there are exceptions to the rule, .

Yeah, it was clear enough what he said tbf

“I think it’s about that education before they come over. A lot of them start their apprenticeship at 16, but even then it’s too late.

DerekDGoldfish

Demosthenese wrote: »

Rodgers is talking about the hole package of being a footballer, living as a footballer and being educated to be a professional footballer. Unfortunately if you have missed out on these basics from their point of view then you will struggle to learn at a later age - obviously there are exceptions to the rule, Coleman/Long and a few that developed late, but to be at a top club you need to be technically brilliant - and you learn that from a very young age.

He had another article out on this where he stated that you had youngsters that come from other countries that are 100% all in to try become a professional player - they move lock stock and barrell and do not think about their home. Whereas he found the Irish lads get homesick and were not as totally committed. That taken in context in my opinion reflects the kid off the street from a possibly poorer country trying to go away and make something from himself versus the Irish kid who lives a comfortable life.

We have bus loads of kids making the journey to England every year but only the best of the best will make that grade and it is logical that you need to be committing yourself at a younger age to try make the dream.

Of course i would argue that we have made great improvements to our schoolboys training and development over the past 5 years in particular. Everywhere you go now we have qualified coaches teaching the kids, plenty of teams we come up against are moving away from the hoof ball tactics of old. It is a far cry from when i grew up and hopefully continues.

Is it not foolish to commit at 13/14 to a career where 1 in 1000 will make a living out of it? OK if they did you could argue we would have 15 or 16 out of 10000 players make instead of 10 but surly its more important that the system doesn't overly damage the lives of the other 9900 odd.

Ferris_Bueller

Good thread.

I don't think Rodgers means coming to England younger is their only hope, but that most of these players aren't exposed to that level of coaching/professionalism until they are about 16, which is too late. I think Seamus Coleman is being used as an example too much, he is an exceptional athlete, but I definitely do not think that is the correct career path for all players. Sending players over to England at a young age cannot be the long term solution either however, as we have seen in the past few years they don't need young Irish players like they used to, they can bring players over from any part of the world now, which is probably why very few Irish players are playing Champions League right now as opposed to 10-15 years ago.

Coaching in Ireland needs to improve, simple as. I think it is improving lately, but we probably won't see the benefits of it for another few years, and even at that the coaching probably still isn't good enough (or at least there isn't enough good coaches).

It's hard to pinpoint exactly where to start, a lot of good suggestions in this thread, but what is the first step that needs to be taken? One could argue that the Emerging Talent is the first step taken already. What do people make of the 50km rule in schoolboy football actually, is it a good thing or is it just stopping the best players being able to play together and with the best coaches?

Regarding GAA and other sports, I'm sure we do lose a lot of our athletes to GAA and the fact it is our national sport has an impact on the footballers we produce, but it's also recommended that young athletes participate in multiple sports, in some situations I'd say playing GAA at a young age actually helps our players (i.e - Coleman, Long, Quinn, etc.) Is it just a problem that some choose GAA over soccer in the end?

Boskowski

TheDoc wrote: »

It was on a trial basis, and in the end while they felt I had good potential and was far advanced in certain areas over my peers (Goalkeeper) there was concerns over my weight and keeping it off. Food, diet and nutrition was something never discussed in the slightest at my club.

You must have ate some serious sh1t though if at that age involved in (presumably) daily training you couldn't keep your weight down. I ate nothing but sh1te at that age but with 3, 4, 5 times football a week I couldn't put on a speck. Was outfield though maybe different.

What age do scouts start watching players? Bale was discovered at under 8s or 9s I think

Gavin "shels"

Coaching in Ireland is the last thing that needs to be improved, the structure needs to be completely revamped. At present the link between Junior football and LoI is brutal, for the most part it's down to the insecurity of the Junior clubs. Needs to be a "pathway" set up and keep players here as long as possible.

Strongbow10

Gavin shels wrote: »

Coaching in Ireland is the last thing that needs to be improved, the structure needs to be completely revamped. At present the link between Junior football and LoI is brutal, for the most part it's down to the insecurity of the Junior clubs. Needs to be a "pathway" set up and keep players here as long as possible.

I'd disagree with your first statement, coaching needs to be drastically improved. UEFA coaching licences need to be subsidised and made less expensive and we need to double the amount of pro licence holders at the very least. Such cost will be returned ten fold when a production line develops.

I 1000% agree with your second point, there are too many vested interests in Junior football and status is all important amongst those in charge in relation to relationships with scouts/managers across the water.

Success is judged on how many lads you can get across to England in any given season.

Lads do need to be kept at home longer in order to play in a new domestic league, but its hindering them if the coaching isn't on par with what they can at least receive across the water.

So many red herrings are thrown into the argument against sending players to England- "didn't do Seamus Coleman any harm", "England is hardly a bastion of excellence for developing young players" etc.....

England may not be the best place, but its sure as hell show us where we are at if its a significant step up in class from Ireland.

Seamus Coleman is also an exception to the rule in that he has a higher ceiling for development.

legendary.xix

Madworld wrote: »

http://www.irishpost.co.uk/sport/brendan-rodgers-16-old-irish-footballers-come-britain

Now that we've slipped to our lowest ever FIFA ranking, should we re-examine how we approach our youth strategy? Should we be looking to get our players to Britain earlier? Should we get behind our domestic league more? Or should we start to look further afield get our most talented young players into youth systems in places like France or Germany?

What age was Coleman when he went across the water? A good number of players in recent Irish squads have played in the LoI before going across the water. There are less kids going across the water than before as Premier League clubs are bringing in kids from all over the world.
LoI needs to be more central in the development of the game in this country. LoI clubs should have a more prominent role in the likes of summer soccer camps. The league itself doesn't have a wide enough national spread, something which needs to be addressed, but it is based in the large urban areas. Clubs in those areas at the very least need to have more advanced youth structures.

hjkl

Coleman was 20 when he went to Everton.

Another one is Kevin Doyle, who left Cork City for Reading just before he turned 22. Was the 2nd highest scorer in the championship his first year and went on to play in the EPL and for Ireland.

Or Keith Fahey, who left Pats and went to Birmingham at 26, played in the EPL, played for Ireland and won the league cup.

David Forde was 26 when he went to England. He didn't become a number 1 until he was 29 at Millwall. Now he's Irelands number 1 at 35.



Just a few examples of Irish players going abroad in their 20s and making it at the highest level.

anncoates

Gavin shels wrote: »

Needs to be a "pathway" set up and keep players here as long as possible.

Funny that, because when a club actually does set up a B team that offers a direct pathway from junior to pro football here, everybody complains that it's an act of cronyism on the part of the FAI.

legendary.xix

anncoates wrote: »

Funny that, because when a club actually does set up a B team that offers a direct pathway from junior to pro football here, everybody complains that it's an act of cronyism on the part of the FAI.

Scrapping the A Championship has to be one of the most worst decisions made in Irish soccer over the last 2-3 decades. 8 first teams competed in the A Championship over it's 4 year existence. Currently there are less than 8 first teams in the first division. The decision to pull the plug on that third tier is baffling. It was a tier/level that needed to establish itself, offering a chance for teams from other regions to join the league e.g. Carlow, Mayo and Kerry. Premier clubs then had A teams which provided a gap between underage and senior level.

dsmythy

Would probably receive better coaching going from Ireland to countries other than England anyway as well as better chances at a younger age.

CSF

anncoates wrote: »

Funny that, because when a club actually does set up a B team that offers a direct pathway from junior to pro football here, everybody complains that it's an act of cronyism on the part of the FAI.

I don't think that is the problem.

The problems seem to have been:
1) That the option seems to only have been open to one team
2) You're allowed play a few first team players pretty much whenever you want.