The Anti-Austerity Crowd

darkpagandeath

mickydoomsux wrote: »

I never claimed that but your quotes and the article linked have nothing to do with the point we are arguing.

You're trying to have a "GOTCHA!" moment with the wrong information.

It's nothing to do with "Gotcha" All I have said is the IMF got it wrong choosing Austerity. Alot of people in Ireland were of the opinion a default would be crippling all I did was link the ex heads words in regards to that. There were several options Austerity was the wrong one.

Bongalongherb

mickydoomsux wrote: »

I never claimed that but your quotes and the article linked have nothing to do with the point we are arguing.

You're trying to have a "GOTCHA!" moment with the wrong information.

Why are you so angry ?. Every comment you have made is dedicated forcefulness as if you are right at all times. Loosen up duder, it's just a comment-fest of crazyness.

mickydoomsux

keith16 wrote: »

So austerity is the only solution in your view?

Forgetting austerity for a moment, are you happy that it costs so much to run?

Of course it could be run more cheaply, you do realize that that is part of what the austerity we are experiencing?

Cuts to certain welfare brackets, cuts to front line public services and things like the withdrawal of medical cards from certain people is all part and parcel of attempting to cut costs.

There is obviously more that could be done but, honestly, the quickest and most efficient way is to increase taxes and tackle easy spending cuts.

Analyzing and rationalizing the spending of every single department of government would take years and we can't afford to wait years for our economic recovery.

Bongalongherb

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Of course it could be run more cheaply, you do realize that that is part of what the austerity we are experiencing?

Cuts to certain welfare brackets, cuts to front line public services and things like the withdrawal of medical cards from certain people is all part and parcel of attempting to cut costs.

There is obviously more that could be done but, honestly, the quickest and most efficient way is to increase taxes and tackle easy spending cuts.

Analyzing and rationalizing the spending of every single department of government would take years and we can't afford to wait years for our economic recovery.

Umm... Cuts cuts cuts etc... you sure love austerity. And yes, I will say bend over, because folk like you just take it time after time, and try to make it sound like a natural thing that a society needs to do after been raped/robbed of billions. I seriously can't figure out what solar system you are from in accepting austerity that was forced upon us all as you so lovenly indulge in.

the quickest and most efficient way is to increase taxes and tackle easy spending cuts.

An astronomically draconian view of disaster.

hfallada

I hate when they have more things than I do and someone should take their things away from them because it's just like so unfair

hfallada wrote: »

I had a socialist LE candidate at my door this week and I asked him about what was his taxation beliefs. He said a more equaitable tax system and I asked him what he meant by that. He tried to tell me the bottom 20% of society pay more tax than the top 10% of society. He lost it when I told him our tax system is the second most progressive in the world and 50% of workers pay no tax. He also told me class doesnt have to exist(every socialists believe class will always exist and its beneficial to society) and a doctor shouldnt earn more than anyone else in society

Most of these anti-austerity crowd are full on nut jobs, who have no idea how a society function. They believe rich should pay more, but dont realise they pretty much pay all the taxes in society and get very little in return

I would love if one of them showed up at my door!
Ohhhh boy

Santa Cruz

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

The people that protest against austerity. How would they expect Ireland to finance a country crippling government deficit?


I don't get it. Could somebody explain? I've never heard of an alternative solution (that actually makes sense and would work better).

The magic money tree of course.

Grayson

Bongalongherb wrote: »

?. Well, every tax-paying citizen in Ireland arsed it up badly for themselves, as they are the ones that bailed out un-guarrenteed bondholders by force from government and allowed it without a protest.

The Irish taxpayer injected itself into this austerity wilfully by not stopping the government in forwarding your monies to gamblers that lost. Cutbacks and all this sh!t will multiply when a persons head is stuck up it's anus yearly. If you lost a bet in paddy power, do you think you would get your money back ? of course not. But all Irish taxpayers just laid back and said nothing and allowed this corrupt government to extract your money to pay criminals off. It was never our debt.

Keep paying if you like, it's your money, so you can burn it if you like.

With or without the banking fiasco we were fecked.

The property market accounted for nearly 60% of tax income in 2007-2008. That disappeared with the crash. Expenditure increased because there were more unemployed. there wasn't enough money. We simply had more bills going out than money coming in. We needed to make cutbacks and see about generating more money through higher taxes.

mickydoomsux

Bongalongherb wrote: »

.... raped/robbed of billions.

Oh, right. Won't be wasting any more time arguing with you.

You're right, the bad rich mans came and took all our monies. What happened is exactly the same thing as being raped or having something stolen from you. That's not a childish view at all.

Bongalongherb

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Oh, right. Won't be wasting any more time arguing with you.

You're right, the bad rich mans came and took all our monies. What happened is exactly the same thing as being raped or having something stolen from you. That's not a childish view at all.

Your comment reply is out of context.

the bad rich mans came and took all our monies.

Well you're the one paying for it aren't you, enjoy so.

Money raped was the comment if you can understand the basic concept of the comment.

mickydoomsux

Bongalongherb wrote: »

Money raped was the comment if you can understand the basic concept of the comment.

"Money raped"?

Just nonsense.

Bongalongherb

mickydoomsux wrote: »

"Money raped"?

Just nonsense.

Ah, what's the point, everything that is said is nonsense to you.

Anyway, best wishes Micky. I'm not the one to argue over trivial things.

Bruthal

Santa Cruz wrote: »

The magic money tree of course.

Well to government ministers, and particularly to their personal finances, they do indeed exist in this country.

Bongalongherb

They grow money-trees as they go along out of taxpayers pockets, and each individual tree every year grows stronger and higher in effect of more baby money-trees.

jackofalltrades

Grayson wrote: »

If they brought in a third tax bracket of say 50% on everything over 200k I'd be ok with it.

People are already paying roughly that rate when you combine PAYE,PRSI and the USC.
The only difference is that it kicks in at €32,800, instead of €200,000.

Keith16 wrote:

No country has ever taxed its way out of a recession.

I hear this said a lot. We're not trying to tax our way out of a recession. We're trying to tax our way out of a massive current budget deficit.

darkpagandeath wrote:

One of the options to the IMF when they came here was to Burn the unsecured bondholders. They chose Austerity.

The IMF were on our side during the bailout negotiations.
They put forward a proposal to impose a haircut of €30 billion on unsecured bondholders.

KyussBishop

Obviously, money does not come from 'money trees', but can those speaking of 'money tree's as if they are making some kind of intelligible point, have a go at explaining where they think money comes-from/is-created?

darkpagandeath

KyussBishop wrote: »

Obviously, money does not come from 'money trees', but can those speaking of 'money tree's as if they are making some kind of intelligible point, have a go at explaining where they think money comes-from/is-created?

Well it's not backed up by gold anymore one could say it's made up out of thin air and only worth anything if you think it is. :pac:

Bongalongherb

KyussBishop wrote: »

Obviously, money does not come from 'money trees', but can those speaking of 'money tree's as if they are making some kind of intelligible point, have a go at explaining where they think money comes-from/is-created?

The money that banks create isn’t the paper money that bears the logo of the government-owned Bank of England. It’s the electronic deposit money that flashes up on the screen when you check your balance at an ATM. Right now, this money (bank deposits) makes up over 97% of all the money in the economy. Only 3% of money is still in that old-fashioned form of real cash that you can touch.

Banks can create money through the accounting they use when they make loans. The numbers that you see when you check your account balance are just accounting entries in the banks’ computers. These numbers are a ‘liability’ or IOU from your bank to you. But by using your debit card or internet banking, you can spend these IOUs as though they were the same as £10 notes.



By creating these electronic IOUs, banks can effectively create a substitute for money.
The following video from the Bank of England explains how money is created by commercial banks...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvRAqR2pAgw

mickydoomsux

Bongalongherb wrote: »

The money that banks create isn’t the paper money that bears the logo of the government-owned Bank of England. It’s the electronic deposit money that flashes up on the screen when you check your balance at an ATM. Right now, this money (bank deposits) makes up over 97% of all the money in the economy. Only 3% of money is still in that old-fashioned form of real cash that you can touch.

Banks can create money through the accounting they use when they make loans. The numbers that you see when you check your account balance are just accounting entries in the banks’ computers. These numbers are a ‘liability’ or IOU from your bank to you. But by using your debit card or internet banking, you can spend these IOUs as though they were the same as £10 notes.



By creating these electronic IOUs, banks can effectively create a substitute for money.
The following video from the Bank of England explains how money is created by commercial banks...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvRAqR2pAgw

So all money is basically Bitcoins?

Bongalongherb

mickydoomsux wrote: »

So all money is basically Bitcoins?

Man I need to get my hands on some of that Gold.

I need quantitative easing after seeing all that Gold Bullion.

KyussBishop

Bongalongherb wrote: »

The money that banks create isn’t the paper money that bears the logo of the government-owned Bank of England. It’s the electronic deposit money that flashes up on the screen when you check your balance at an ATM. Right now, this money (bank deposits) makes up over 97% of all the money in the economy. Only 3% of money is still in that old-fashioned form of real cash that you can touch.

Banks can create money through the accounting they use when they make loans. The numbers that you see when you check your account balance are just accounting entries in the banks’ computers. These numbers are a ‘liability’ or IOU from your bank to you. But by using your debit card or internet banking, you can spend these IOUs as though they were the same as £10 notes.



By creating these electronic IOUs, banks can effectively create a substitute for money.
The following video from the Bank of England explains how money is created by commercial banks...

Exactly - money is created out of nothing (I even did a thread on that there ). Now, if the central bank loaned money to government at 0% interest (we're already at 0% interest already), so long as inflation isn't too high, isn't this a bit like the fabled 'magic money tree'?

People use the term, like it's some impossible idea, yet it seems the only thing stopping it is politics. Martin Wolf, leading editor of the Financial Times, explicitly advocates it.

darkpagandeath

KyussBishop wrote: »

Exactly - money is created out of nothing (I even did a thread on that there ). Now, if the central bank loaned money to government at 0% interest (we're already at 0% interest already), so long as inflation isn't too high, isn't this a bit like the fabled 'magic money tree'?

People use the term, like it's some impossible idea, yet it seems the only thing stopping it is politics. Martin Wolf, leading editor of the Financial Times, explicitly advocates it.

Careful now they would not be able to shout down anyone that does not agree with austerity if they actually knew money in it's current form is a magic money tree.

Cuttlefish

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

And good for them.

We are all trying to get richer.

And how much richer are you?

Or are we looking at this wrong, our wealth should not be measured in financial terms!!


:P

comongethappy

I haven't read the whole thread.

Has the infinite money tree been found yet?

Cuttlefish

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Because the country costs more to run than we are taking in.

That's why we need austerity.

We need austerity!?

You must enjoy looking at your payslip every week while Anglo Officials do community service and laugh at Joe Public!

darkpagandeath

comongethappy wrote: »

I haven't read the whole thread.

Has the infinite money tree been found yet?

Yes they use it in the banks to make money, They wont share it though :pac:

Wacker The Attacker

My political philosophy is now to say the exact opposite of anything that Richard Boyd Barrett says

Cuttlefish

Wacker The Attacker wrote: »

My political philosophy is now to say the exact opposite of anything that Richard Boyd Barrett says

So let the rich get rich and a two tier recovery continue?

Bongalongherb

I was just checking the sunspot activity of the sun just incase a solar flare hits the main computer banking system network. We don't want radiationally wiped HDD's do we. I had 4 million in my account and all of a sudden a solar flare wiped the computer holding my digits, now I have nothing, no compuher digits.

A scenario of time forwarded to 2016, Puff...my computer numerical's have vanished,

Watch out for that solar-flare folks, the one that can wipe out satt's and computers.

The solar storm of 1859, also known as the Carrington Event was a powerful geomagnetic solar storm in 1859 during solar cycle 10. A solar flare or coronal mass ejection hit Earth's magnetosphere and induced the largest known solar storm, which was observed and recorded by Richard C. Carrington.

Bongalongherb

comongethappy wrote: »

I haven't read the whole thread.

Has the infinite money tree been found yet?

I'll know at 19:57 lotto time.

comongethappy

Cuttlefish wrote: »

We need austerity!?

You must enjoy looking at your payslip every week while Anglo Officials do community service and laugh at Joe Public!

Meh.... That's for courts to decide.
The budget deficit is not the responsibility of the high court.

In lieu of the infinite money tree being found though, spending must come down, revenue must increase.

There was no alternative.

darkpagandeath

comongethappy wrote: »

Meh.... That's for courts to decide.
The budget deficit is not the responsibility of the high court.

In lieu of the infinite money tree being found though, spending must come down, revenue must increase.

There was no alternative.

Are we missing the part The EU has in this setting the debt level of member states to prop up the Euro ?

Bongalongherb

KyussBishop wrote: »

Exactly - money is created out of nothing (I even did a thread on that there ). Now, if the central bank loaned money to government at 0% interest (we're already at 0% interest already), so long as inflation isn't too high, isn't this a bit like the fabled 'magic money tree'?

People use the term, like it's some impossible idea, yet it seems the only thing stopping it is politics. Martin Wolf, leading editor of the Financial Times, explicitly advocates it.

What is your opinion on this ?... I'm still trying to figure out some stuff...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5UOZP78O-Q

KyussBishop

Bongalongherb wrote: »

What is your opinion on this ?... I'm still trying to figure out some stuff...

I read up on it instead of watching it, and the 'thrive' stuff seems to basically be conspiracy theory stuff - be careful trying to read about the monetary system, because it's one of the most conspiracy-theory laden topics on the Internet.

hatrickpatrick

KyussBishop wrote: »

"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled" ~ John Kenneth Galbraith.

You can even show the Bank of England talking about this, yet the topic generates so much cognitive dissonance, that people will say the Bank of England is wrong rather than change their beliefs.

Any time I've brought this up, I've had a sizable number of people respond with "Man you're having a laugh, that's not ACTUALLY where money comes from....... right?"

I honestly reckon we'd solve a huge number of ridiculous problems if we managed to throw this system away, but the fact that so many don't know how it works makes people reluctant to mess with it I think.

Cazzoenorme

oceanman wrote: »

that would be fine except the rich just seem to get richer!

Does any have any stats showing that the "rich get richer and the poor get poorer"?

KyussBishop

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Any time I've brought this up, I've had a sizable number of people respond with "Man you're having a laugh, that's not ACTUALLY where money comes from....... right?"

I honestly reckon we'd solve a huge number of ridiculous problems if we managed to throw this system away, but the fact that so many don't know how it works makes people reluctant to mess with it I think.

Yea it's really odd, heh - I've not seen any other topic (outside of religion and woo), generate quite the same level of cognitive dissonance in people.

Show people the Bank of England stuff first, before anything else (well...describe it briefly, with that as backing), because they are an authority that can't be dismissed/ignored - you may still go up against a wall, but I'm finding it's turning people now, and gaining a lot of ground - in a year or two it might start to become quite a Big Deal, as more people learn.

darkpagandeath

Cazzoenorme wrote: »

Does any have any stats showing that the "rich get richer and the poor get poorer"?

Yup since the crash the top 1% have gotten richer buy 20% and the people at the bottom hit with all the taxes and so on have gotten poor.

Cazzoenorme

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Any time I've brought this up, I've had a sizable number of people respond with "Man you're having a laugh, that's not ACTUALLY where money comes from....... right?"

I honestly reckon we'd solve a huge number of ridiculous problems if we managed to throw this system away, but the fact that so many don't know how it works makes people reluctant to mess with it I think.

Banks don't actually creat money, they create promises to pay back money.

KyussBishop

Cazzoenorme wrote: »

Banks don't actually creat money, they create promises to pay back money.

You're in disagreement with the Bank of England.

Bongalongherb

KyussBishop wrote: »

I read up on it instead of watching it, and the 'thrive' stuff seems to basically be conspiracy theory stuff - be careful trying to read about the monetary system, because it's one of the most conspiracy-theory laden topics on the Internet.

Will do. Sh!t, it almost had me there watching it.

NIMAN

For me the anti-austerity crowd talk the talk that the man in the street wants to hear, but in reality they never seem to give an idea that would work in the real world. Its very easy to say "the common man can't take any more taxes or cuts", but none of them would succeed in any way if handed the power to sort it out.

The movement for me was summed up recently listening to a People Before Profit candidate on local radio up here in Donegal. He was on chatting about how unfair the water charges were and with it being a rainy day he said "look at it, its pissing down outside, why do they have to charge for water?" Total nonsense. Of course the useless interviewer let this comment go unchallenged.

Thing is, its hard to be a voice in favour of any charges, as people think you are just some sort of fascist. Our property charges are a lot smaller than NI, yet listen to the moaning (and don't believe the hype that they get a lot of services for their money). Other countries charge for water, but you'd think it only existed in Ireland.

As soon as I hear a realistic option from one of these folk, other than 'tax the rich', then I might consider taking them more seriously.

KyussBishop

Bongalongherb wrote: »

Will do. Sh!t, it almost had me there watching it.

If you find economists you can identify as Post-Keynesian, they are leading the way in rewriting/reforming economics, to take the monetary system into account. A particularly good one is Steve Keen.

There are a lot of different views on how the monetary system should be reformed (even among Post-Keynesians), and there are other authors who favour public banking (a very powerful idea, which Ireland could also greatly benefit from), such as Ellen Brown - she's very good at forming an understandable narrative on the topic.

There are also yet more flavours of monetary reformists, like the Positive Money crowd in the UK (there's an Irish 'Sensible Money' site inspired from them), and one of the most important mainstream writers on it, is Martin Wolf - some important articles from him here:
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/46a1ce84-bf2a-11e3-a4af-00144feabdc0.html?siteedition=intl
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/7f000b18-ca44-11e3-bb92-00144feabdc0.html?siteedition=intl

mickydoomsux

NIMAN wrote: »

For me the anti-austerity crowd talk the talk that the man in the street wants to hear, but in reality they never seem to give an idea that would work in the real world. Its very easy to say "the common man can't take any more taxes or cuts", but none of them would succeed in any way if handed the power to sort it out.

The movement for me was summed up recently listening to a People Before Profit candidate on local radio up here in Donegal. He was on chatting about how unfair the water charges were and with it being a rainy day he said "look at it, its pissing down outside, why do they have to charge for water?" Total nonsense. Of course the useless interviewer let this comment go unchallenged.

Thing is, its hard to be a voice in favour of any charges, as people think you are just some sort of fascist. Our property charges are a lot smaller than NI, yet listen to the moaning (and don't believe the hype that they get a lot of services for their money). Other countries charge for water, but you'd think it only existed in Ireland.

As soon as I hear a realistic option from one of these folk, other than 'tax the rich', then I might consider taking them more seriously.

We're very used to not paying for certain things and just take them for granted.

People go nuts when they are asked to foot the bill for a "free" service.

Bongalongherb

NIMAN wrote: »

For me the anti-austerity crowd talk the talk that the man in the street wants to hear, but in reality they never seem to give an idea that would work in the real world. Its very easy to say "the common man can't take any more taxes or cuts", but none of them would succeed in any way if handed the power to sort it out.

The movement for me was summed up recently listening to a People Before Profit candidate on local radio up here in Donegal. He was on chatting about how unfair the water charges were and with it being a rainy day he said "look at it, its pissing down outside, why do they have to charge for water?" Total nonsense. Of course the useless interviewer let this comment go unchallenged.

Thing is, its hard to be a voice in favour of any charges, as people think you are just some sort of fascist. Our property charges are a lot smaller than NI, yet listen to the moaning (and don't believe the hype that they get a lot of services for their money). Other countries charge for water, but you'd think it only existed in Ireland.

As soon as I hear a realistic option from one of these folk, other than 'tax the rich', then I might consider taking them more seriously.

I just don't have any spare cash left to pay for it, so how in the name of money-trees can I pay for something that I don't have ? the juice is dry, there's no more juice.

NIMAN

Perhaps some can't pay, but plenty can and simply jump on the 'won't pay' bandwagon.

A couple of years ago we had the anti-crowd telling people not to pay their property tax. Many didn't. Now these folk are getting hit with back charges, fines, interest, penalties etc. I heard a member of the public on the radio recently saying "those guys told me not to pay and now they are going to take it out of my wages, where are they now that I am getting hit with interest".

Good point, and more reason not to listen to them I say.

Bongalongherb

NIMAN wrote: »

Perhaps some can't pay, but plenty can and simply jump on the 'won't pay' bandwagon.

A couple of years ago we had the anti-crowd telling people not to pay their property tax. Many didn't. Now these folk are getting hit with back charges, fines, interest, penalties etc. I heard a member of the public on the radio recently saying "those guys told me not to pay and now they are going to take it out of my wages, where are they now that I am getting hit with interest".

Good point, and more reason not to listen to them I say.

Yes, I remember that one taken from wages, but this water charge coming up will not be taken from wages or pensions as far as I know at this time. But seriously, if a genuine persons income is all sold out with rent and all the bills and basically €20 left to last the week for food, how can this person pay this charge/charges. I know folk that earn a good wage can afford to pay, but a person that has little left, how can they pay ? when they have basically nothing left.

alb

mickydoomsux wrote: »

So all money is basically Bitcoins?

You're joking because Bitcoins and most of our euros are both digital, this is true. The difference is that Bitcoins can't just be created on a whim by a central authority, there's an upper limit on them, and a schedule for the creation of them.

When centrals banks print lots more money it's effectively a stealth tax on savings or on salaries that don't rise, as it devalues every existing unit of that currency.

KyussBishop

alb wrote: »

You're joking because Bitcoins and most of our euros are both digital, this is true. The difference is that Bitcoins can't just be created on a whim by a central authority, there's an upper limit on them, and a schedule for the creation of them.

When centrals banks print lots more money it's effectively a stealth tax on savings or on salaries that don't rise, as it devalues every existing unit of that currency.

It doesn't devalue/tax anything - taxation, devaluation and inflation are all very different things and shouldn't be mixed up - a limited rate of inflation is perfectly normal.

hatrickpatrick

Cazzoenorme wrote: »

Banks don't actually creat money, they create promises to pay back money.

And where does that money to pay it back come from in the first place?

hatrickpatrick

alb wrote: »

You're joking because Bitcoins and most of our euros are both digital, this is true. The difference is that Bitcoins can't just be created on a whim by a central authority, there's an upper limit on them, and a schedule for the creation of them.

When centrals banks print lots more money it's effectively a stealth tax on savings or on salaries that don't rise, as it devalues every existing unit of that currency.

The other fundamental thing about bitcoin is that it's created without having a larger debt on it. It's just created, without interest, so it doesn't require more lending to pay back the existing debt, as ordinary money does.

I'm not saying bitcoin is well designed, that's for another thread, but I am saying that its proof of concept - money doesn't have to be created with interest bearing debt attached to it in order to function. The only reason it does is because each person chooses to accept that currency as a form of payment and hardly anyone seems to question how it works.
If more people did, I'd be astonished if the conversation didn't turn from "reform", or adjusting the existing system, to fundamentally "this system is bollocks, lets go back to the drawing board and rethink the whole thing from scratch".