Has the FA Cup become meaningless?

.jacksparrow.

user2011 wrote: »

Top 4 clash will not beat the top 2 title decider in Spain Imo.

So much more at stake in Spain then the FA Cup, the FA picked a sh!t time to play the game at and were hopefully found out for it.

English games usually KO at 3, so why not the show piece of the FA?

Kick off at 3 and we would not be talking about this.

Where to begin.

Grayditch

I think it's a class trophy. That was a savage final yesterday, too.

LuckyLloyd

smemon wrote: »

the reality is Hull destroyed it by being in the Final... in more recent years, we've had several bottom of the barrel teams make it to the final...

Hull, Wigan, Stoke, Portsmouth, Everton, Cardiff.... they devalue the competition making it to the final... much like Liverpool, Porto and Chelsea winning the Champions League in recent memory or Greece winning the Euros...

A final matters more when it's two heavyweights against each other... it would have meant more had it been Arsenal and Chelsea..

but having said all of that, you earn your right to be there by in large... and Bruce is a gent that's doing a great job with Hull... will they be in the final next year? no. And that's the mark of a good side... they don't randomly win something and then disappear off the map or get relegated the following year...

Yikes.

Quazzie

This is the typical bullshít thrown out by the "SKY Brigade"

Some people are sucked up by Sky's PR machine and can't see anything beyond it. If the Final was on sky, this thread wouldn't exist.

Sky ≠ football

Agueroooo

You can nearly pinpoint its demise to July 1st 1999 when Utd were allowed pull out of the FA Cup, so as to be able to compete in the World club championship.

although Ferguson has expressed some regret since for doing so.

The cup needs a boost and a spot in the CL for the winner (at the expense of 4th place) would be a good idea imo.

bucketybuck

scudzilla wrote: »

And why not? Bit elitist to discount them just because they're not one of the Big 4

Because the Champions league used to mean the champions of Europe, the very best of the best competing against each other. It has already been devalued by letting the top four in, but at least the top four have proven themselves over a season.

Letting the cup winners in, or even worse the losing cup finalists in, would be a blow to the integrity of that competition. People make jokes about Liverpool qualifying next season but at least Liverpool earned their spot, whereas potentially you could have a championship side beating other championship sides right up to the final where they lose to the league champions. A lower division side would then be in the Champions league without even winning anything, I'm sure UEFA would be very impressed by that.

The FA cup needs to stand on its own merits, not by trying to piggy bank on the back of a bigger competition.

viper006

Quazzie wrote: »

This is the typical bullshít thrown out by the "SKY Brigade"

Some people are sucked up by Sky's PR machine and can't see anything beyond it. If the Final was on sky, this thread wouldn't exist.

Sky ≠ football

Its more to do with the how the champions league has been marketed over the last decade than anything else i feel. The prestige and financial rewards of being in the CL is what every top teams wants to be apart of. As the FA cup doesnt offer a route into the CL it seems to have diminished its importance over the years in the minds of fans.

Adding a CL place for the winners of the FA cup would certainly add more spice to it But that solution wouldnt be for everyone either.

Lucas Hood

Agueroooo wrote: »

You can nearly pinpoint its demise to July 1st 1999 when Utd were allowed pull out of the FA Cup, so as to be able to compete in the World club championship.

although Ferguson has expressed some regret since for doing so.

The cup needs a boost and a spot in the CL for the winner (at the expense of 4th place) would be a good idea imo.

Didn't the fa force them to do that? In hope of getting the world cup.

Fr Tod Umptious

smemon wrote: »

the reality is Hull destroyed it by being in the Final... in more recent years, we've had several bottom of the barrel teams make it to the final...

Hull, Wigan, Stoke, Portsmouth, Everton, Cardiff.... they devalue the competition making it to the final... much like Liverpool, Porto and Chelsea winning the Champions League in recent memory or Greece winning the Euros...

A final matters more when it's two heavyweights against each other... it would have meant more had it been Arsenal and Chelsea..

but having said all of that, you earn your right to be there by in large... and Bruce is a gent that's doing a great job with Hull... will they be in the final next year? no. And that's the mark of a good side... they don't randomly win something and then disappear off the map or get relegated the following year...

Two of the worst cup finals of the past 20 years involved two 'big' teams, Utd v Liverpool in 1996 and Utd v Chelsea in 2007.

Its all about what the teams have to play for, if you have 2 already qualified CL teams that have swapped EPL championships between them for a few years then the FA cup is going to mean feck all to them.

If however, like yesterday, you have two teams that are eagar to win a trophy for various reasons then you would expect a better game.

anncoates

smemon wrote: »

the reality is Hull destroyed it by being in the Final... in more recent years, we've had several bottom of the barrel teams make it to the final...

Hull, Wigan, Stoke, Portsmouth, Everton, Cardiff.... they devalue the competition making it to the final... much like Liverpool, Porto and Chelsea winning the Champions League in recent memory or Greece winning the Euros...

A final matters more when it's two heavyweights against each other... it would have meant more had it been Arsenal and Chelsea..

but having said all of that, you earn your right to be there by in large... and Bruce is a gent that's doing a great job with Hull... will they be in the final next year? no. And that's the mark of a good side... they don't randomly win something and then disappear off the map or get relegated the following year...

And it was thus that the critical mass of idiocy was reached.

citytillidie

So those saying that the FA Cup winners should get CL spot ahead of 4th what happens after a few years it's weaker teams making it and England drop down the rankings and lose that 4th spot. Do you then award the 3rd spot to FA Cup winners?

Gbear

I remember being surprised how little Liverpool's win in the League Cup mattered to me a few years ago. I just didn't really care. It could've been that we were terrible and were playing Cardiff (I was far happier after we beat City in the previous round).

The FA cup is a little more important but I think it's the same general idea.
Winning the CL or the league are momentous occasions, whereas winning the domestic cups feels closer to just winning any other football match than it does winning a trophy and how much it means is more down to the team you beat than the actual inherent prestige of the trophy itself.

omega man

Gbear wrote: »

I remember being surprised how little Liverpool's win in the League Cup mattered to me a few years ago. I just didn't really care. It could've been that we were terrible and were playing Cardiff (I was far happier after we beat City in the previous round).

The FA cup is a little more important but I think it's the same general idea.
Winning the CL or the league are momentous occasions, whereas winning the domestic cups feels closer to just winning any other football match than it does winning a trophy and how much it means is more down to the team you beat than the actual inherent prestige of the trophy itself.

Jeez the pool fans in my local went ape when they won that league cup v Cardiff. For the last number of years my pool mates insisted it's all about trophies and that CL qualification was a "commercial" thing. Now it's all about CL with those same pool fans and all of a sudden the FA cup is small time

.jacksparrow.

Is this thread only set up in light of arsenals win, tune in to sky sports and look at the arsenal players and fans to see if it's relevant.

Most teams only Get a chance at 3 trophies each season, winning at least one is a great achievement.

eagle eye

There used to be three European competitions the European Cup, the UEFA Cup and the Cup Winner's Cup.

If you were champions you went into the first one, three or four teams got into the second one and the winners of the FA Cup got into the third one. That made it very special as you got into a European competition along with all the other cup winners(who hadn't won their league).

FA Cup triumph for many years was equally as big as winning the league, its only since the extra Champion's league spots came into existence that it started to lose its prestige.

retalivity

smemon wrote: »

the reality is Hull destroyed it by being in the Final... in more recent years, we've had several bottom of the barrel teams make it to the final...

Hull, Wigan, Stoke, Portsmouth, Everton, Cardiff.... they devalue the competition making it to the final... much like Liverpool, Porto and Chelsea winning the Champions League in recent memory or Greece winning the Euros...

A final matters more when it's two heavyweights against each other... it would have meant more had it been Arsenal and Chelsea..

but having said all of that, you earn your right to be there by in large... and Bruce is a gent that's doing a great job with Hull... will they be in the final next year? no. And that's the mark of a good side... they don't randomly win something and then disappear off the map or get relegated the following year...

Youve pretty much ticked off everything in the trolling checklist...well done

Hitchens

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

Is this thread only set up in light of arsenals win.

definitely not, nothing to do with which clubs are in the Final at all, or which club wins it either

Turtwig

It's very simple.

Ask an Arsenal fan which is more important Champions League Qualification or the FA Cup they won yesterday?

UCL all day. The top clubs like wining trophies so it's certainly not meaningless but now that four teams can qualify for UCL its worth has diminished significantly.

A trophy alright but closer to the charity shield now in terms of worth than the Premier League title. Pity, but that's the way it is. I'd say consider the option of making the FA Cup winner the last qualifier for Champions League spot.

Moneymaker

Idiotic question.

Look at the fans and players yesterday.

Does it look like it's meaningless?

It'd mean more then anything to me to see Newcastle win a cup. Any fcuking cup.

erkifino

If your team isn't in the final then yes. It can be pretty meaningless.

AdamD

Turtwig wrote: »

It's very simple.

Ask an Arsenal fan which is more important Champions League Qualification or the FA Cup they won yesterday?

UCL all day. The top clubs like wining trophies so it's certainly not meaningless but now that four teams can qualify for UCL its worth has diminished significantly.

A trophy alright but closer to the charity shield now in terms of worth than the Premier League title. Pity, but that's the way it is. I'd say consider the option of making the FA Cup winner the last qualifier for Champions League spot.

Sorry but the cup final was infinitely better than any CL qualification has ever been

WesternZulu

Moneymaker wrote: »

It'd mean more then anything to me to see Newcastle win a cup. Any fcuking cup.

They won the Championship in 2009/10...that's a cup :pac:

Marty McFly

Meaningless my arse, there was 250,000 Arsenal fans out on the streets of London today to watch the Arsenal parade.

Richard Hillman

The majority of the players playing yesterday would have had their career highlight to date in that game.

Utopia Parkway

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Meaningless as a competition? No. But unless my team is playing in it, I don't have any interest.

Pretty much for me as well. Have only watched one FA Cup final in recent years and that was 2012.

Used to watch it religiously every year at one stage no matter who was in it.

Dempsey

smemon wrote: »

the reality is Hull destroyed it by being in the Final... in more recent years, we've had several bottom of the barrel teams make it to the final...

Hull, Wigan, Stoke, Portsmouth, Everton, Cardiff.... they devalue the competition making it to the final... much like Liverpool, Porto and Chelsea winning the Champions League in recent memory or Greece winning the Euros...

A final matters more when it's two heavyweights against each other... it would have meant more had it been Arsenal and Chelsea..

but having said all of that, you earn your right to be there by in large... and Bruce is a gent that's doing a great job with Hull... will they be in the final next year? no. And that's the mark of a good side... they don't randomly win something and then disappear off the map or get relegated the following year...

Nonsensce, its one of the most fascinating aspects of the sport!

Rezident

It's hard to get excited about the FA Cup when you have the Champion's League and the league etc. I also watched the Spanish game instead. Haven't been interested in the FA Cup in years, a team form a lower league beats a team from a higher league and it's "the magic of the cup". It's not magic.

If you can't get excited about your team winning a trophy, any trophy, you've been either too spoiled with success and /or you're not really a fan at all.

Rezident

Rezident wrote: »

It's hard to get excited about the FA Cup when you have the Champion's League and the league etc. I also watched the Spanish game instead. Haven't been interested in the FA Cup in years, a team form a lower league beats a team from a higher league and it's "the magic of the cup". It's not magic.

Are you an Arsenal fan?

Paz-CCFC

citytillidie wrote: »

So those saying that the FA Cup winners should get CL spot ahead of 4th what happens after a few years it's weaker teams making it and England drop down the rankings and lose that 4th spot. Do you then award the 3rd spot to FA Cup winners?

That wouldn't necessarily happen, though. There's no difference in league co-efficients awarded in the CL compared to the UL. A team doing badly in the CL would be the same as if they had done badly in the UL. Plus, there'd be another one of the "big four/five" in the UL, which actually has a better potential for league co-efficients, due to having more matches. So, the co-efficient risk would be fairly offset by that.

And you wouldn't consistently have weaker teams in it. Since the turn of the millenium, the winner's have usually been Manchester United, Manchester City, Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool. Outside of them, Portsmouth and Wigan won it once each, so. And the time between there wins, would have meant that their possible poor results in the CL would not have been compounded by being together (the co-efficients are calculated based on 5 seasons), so any ill-effects would have been minimised.

Re the worry about the runners-up getting a CL place if the winners have already qualified through the league, just don't give it to them. They wouldn't be champions, so they wouldn't deserve it. At the moment, if a team qualifies for the EL through the league and wins the FA Cup, they take the higher-ranked place through the cup and their other EL spot shifts down in the league, so the runners-up get nothing.


Regardless, is the FA Cup meaningless? There were nearly 90,000 at the stadium yesterday, so no, it's hugely important. The single biggest game in the English domestic season, for me.

The_Kew_Tour

FA Cup is sure better then nothing.

A trophy is a trophy.

Most teams can only win 3 a year.

Enjoy when you win 1

Oranage2

A trophy is a trophy and winning is winning no matter what, whether it's some Sunday league cup or the fa cup it means a lot to the players and fans, I know at the top level it seems to be all about the money but as a fan trophies mean more than bank balances,

also the fa cup is a bloody hard cup to win!

arrianalexander

smemon wrote: »

the reality is Hull destroyed it by being in the Final... in more recent years, we've had several bottom of the barrel teams make it to the final...

Hull, Wigan, Stoke, Portsmouth, Everton, Cardiff.... they devalue the competition making it to the final... much like Liverpool, Porto and Chelsea winning the Champions League in recent memory or Greece winning the Euros...

A final matters more when it's two heavyweights against each other... it would have meant more had it been Arsenal and Chelsea..

but having said all of that, you earn your right to be there by in large... and Bruce is a gent that's doing a great job with Hull... will they be in the final next year? no. And that's the mark of a good side... they don't randomly win something and then disappear off the map or get relegated the following year...

since when are Everton a bottom of the barrel side ????

YouTookMyName

arrianalexander wrote: »

since when are Everton a bottom of the barrel side ????

When moyesy was managing them.

Skylinehead

YouTookMyName wrote: »

When moyesy was managing them.

Do you understand what "bottom of the barrel" means?

acquiescefc

Skylinehead wrote: »

Do you understand what "bottom of the barrel" means?

5th place or lower is probably what he considers bottom of the barrel.