Season 4 Episode 7 "Mockingbird": *HAVE* read the books

Tiddlypeeps

Blay wrote: »

He's not going to be in it at this stage. Next episode is the trial by combat, ep.9 takes place at the Wall and ep.10 he meets Bloodraven and the Children.

No point introducing him at this stage, he'd be onscreen for about 5 mins.

Ah, I didn't think that would be till next season. That seems a bit early on. I wasn't quite sure what the title of episode 10 was referring to but I feel a bit silly now because it's totally obvious.

It'd be a shame if they left him out of it completely. In the book it really felt like who he was would be very significant once revealed. Rather than just a tool to see Bran safely to the children.

Tiddlypeeps

Cienciano wrote: »

Especially made up for Cersai.
I think I agree with Rosy, Cersai is worse than Joffery. He's an idiot who's just a psycho and everyone knows it. With Cersai it's much deeper than that. I love how Tywin puts her in her place. One of my favourite moments in the book was when Tywin suggests she marry Balon Greyjoy!

I don't think she is as bad as Joffery. You can easily see her motivations for all of her actions. It usually boils down to either protecting her children or proving to the world that she is as strong/capable as any man.

Don't get me wrong, she is still a c*nt. But at least her actions have some reasonable justification in her head. Jeoffery was just evil and enjoyed inflicting pain on others, there was never any hint of reason or justification for his actions.

celica00

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

Ah, I didn't think that would be till next season. That seems a bit early on. I wasn't quite sure what the title of episode 10 was referring to but I feel a bit silly now because it's totally obvious.

It'd be a shame if they left him out of it completely. In the book it really felt like who he was would be very significant once revealed. Rather than just a tool to see Bran safely to the children.

I still think he will be, like the very last minutes of the last episode in Season 4.
So everybody gets really excited and wants to know how it goes on in Season 5.
I really think it could be along those lines...

Cienciano

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

I don't think she is as bad as Joffery. You can easily see her motivations for all of her actions. It usually boils down to either protecting her children or proving to the world that she is as strong/capable as any man.

Don't get me wrong, she is still a c*nt. But at least her actions have some reasonable justification in her head. Jeoffery was just evil and enjoyed inflicting pain on others, there was never any hint of reason or justification for his actions.

I think she enjoys punishing people just as much as Joffery, but she won't do it unless she "legally" can. She thinks of the commoners as scum.
Basically, she's a more intelligent version of Joffery, but as Tywin pointed out, she's not as clever as she thinks.

Mickeroo

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

I don't think she is as bad as Joffery. You can easily see her motivations for all of her actions. It usually boils down to either protecting her children or proving to the world that she is as strong/capable as any man.

Don't get me wrong, she is still a c*nt. But at least her actions have some reasonable justification in her head. Jeoffery was just evil and enjoyed inflicting pain on others, there was never any hint of reason or justification for his actions.

Her pov chapters showed her to be a completely paranoid nutjob. They made me less sympathetic to her if anything.

Burt Macklin

Mickeroo wrote: »

Her pov chapters showed her to be a completely paranoid nutjob. They made me less sympathetic to her if anything.

My favourite bat**** crazy Cersei moment was when she thought about eating Robert's heirs.

Ten thousand of your children perished in my palm, Your Grace. Whilst you snored, I would lick your sons off my face and fingers one by one, all pale sticky princes. You claimed your rights, my lord, but in the darkness I would eat your heirs

In some of her POV chapters, she comes across as being genuinely mentally disturbed.

spitfireIRL

Burt Macklin wrote: »

My favourite bat**** crazy Cersei moment was when she thought about eating Robert's heirs.



In some of her POV chapters, she comes across as being genuinely mentally disturbed.

Jesus I'd blocked that out, manky!!!

astonaidan

Im really not looking forward to The Viper going, he really is awesome :mad: Dam You Martin

December2012

I love how the Martells are the new Starks. I can't wait to see more of them next year!

Cienciano

astonaidan wrote: »

Im really not looking forward to The Viper going, he really is awesome :mad: Dam You Martin

That was the most disappointing moment in the book for me*







*I saw season 1, so I knew ned got killed

astonaidan

Cienciano wrote: »

That was the most disappointing moment in the book for me*







*I saw season 1, so I knew ned got killed

For sure he was getting written to be a great character, had a flair about him (Yes all the characters I liked in the show turned out to be gay and I never realised it )
Was thinking this guy could go on to be my favourite easily

bopper

astonaidan wrote: »

For sure he was getting written to be a great character, had a flair about him (Yes all the characters I liked in the show turned out to be gay and I never realised it )
Was thinking this guy could go on to be my favourite easily

Oberyn isn't gay. Who are your other favourite characters? Loras and Renly

Burt Macklin

Oberyn was an interesting character in the books, but really he was just a plot device to introduce the Sand Snakes and kickstart the action in Dorne.
He was never that central to the overall story and was only in 3 chapters.

Still was an absolute sickener when he died, but I guess Martin loves to subvert expectations.

Iwasfrozen

Burt Macklin wrote: »

Oberyn was an interesting character in the books, but really he was just a plot device to introduce the Sand Snakes and kickstart the action in Dorne.
He was never that central to the overall story and was only in 3 chapters.

Still was an absolute sickener when he died, but I guess Martin loves to subvert expectations.

Let's hope he continues on that thread and Jon stays dead.

Rosy Posy

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

I don't think she is as bad as Joffery. You can easily see her motivations for all of her actions. It usually boils down to either protecting her children or proving to the world that she is as strong/capable as any man.

Don't get me wrong, she is still a c*nt. But at least her actions have some reasonable justification in her head. Jeoffery was just evil and enjoyed inflicting pain on others, there was never any hint of reason or justification for his actions.

I actually felt a little sorry for Joffery. His faults can be boiled down to an interaction of bad genes- a madness born of incest, and poor parenting- ignored by his father(s) and indulged by his mother. Sure he was horrible but puberty brings out the worst in most decent people. I'm in no way a Joff apologist but he was quite straightforward in his badness, whereas Cersei is more underhand. In saying that they're both great characters and their demise is cathartic.

Rosy Posy

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Let's hope he continues on that thread and Jon stays dead.

NOOOOO!

podgemonster

Rosy Posy wrote: »

I actually felt a little sorry for Joffery. His faults can be boiled down to an interaction of bad genes- a madness born of incest, and poor parenting- ignored by his father(s) and indulged by his mother. Sure he was horrible but puberty brings out the worst in most decent people. I'm in no way a Joff apologist but he was quite straightforward in his badness, whereas Cersei is more underhand. In saying that they're both great characters and their demise is cathartic.

Absolutely, I think I read somewhere that if you look at things from a twisted Joffrey perspective his story has a Shakespearean tragedy arc.

His "father" dies early from tragic "accident". His right to the throne is almost taken from him by a traitor in favour of his dark cold uncle. Then after he deals with Ned, both his Uncles declare war.

All the while destined to wed the melancholic daughter of a traitor whos older brother decides he wants to play war too. Robb then captures his beloved "uncle" Jaime.

Then enter the Tyrells who help Joffrey beat Stannis at the Blackwater, boost realm finances, propose a more suitable bride but ultimately plot and partake in His Graces brutal regicide.

Poetic almost.

connemara man

Let's all take a moment for the people on the non book readers thread who can't see Oberyn losing.
I like the theories they come up with

celica00

Rosy Posy wrote: »

NOOOOO!

oh my god, that was a spoiler for me now

Kunkka

Show needs more Stannis.

Tiddlypeeps

celica00 wrote: »

oh my god, that was a spoiler for me now

Why would you risk reading the thread if you haven't read to books?

turnikett1

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Let's hope he continues on that thread and Jon stays dead.

I really hope he stays dead. Don't want anymore of this zombie craic ala zombie Catelyn. Once was more than enough!

Michael D Not Higgins

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

Why would you risk reading the thread if you haven't read to books?

Exactly, any and all information from the books is fair game here.

celica00

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

Why would you risk reading the thread if you haven't read to books?

Im reading the Season 4 related book actually at the moment, Im not finished with it yet.
Im aware of the spoilers tho, just didn’t expect that one haha. At least I’m mentally prepared now.

celica00

sorry just felt like mentioning it, I'm not blaming anyone, all cool

Tiddlypeeps

turnikett1 wrote: »

I really hope he stays dead. Don't want anymore of this zombie craic ala zombie Catelyn. Once was more than enough!

Spoiler incase there is anyone else who hasn't read that far:

He is way to important to be dead. Catelyn is only a zombie because of how long she was dead before being resurrected. Millisandre is nearby when he was hit so he will probably be seen to fairly quickly. Beric Dondarrion was killed several times and resurrected, but doesn't appear zombified because he hadn't spent days rotting in a river before being resurrected.

Burt Macklin

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

Spoiler incase there is anyone else who hasn't read that far:

He is way to important to be dead. Catelyn is only a zombie because of how long she was dead before being resurrected. Millisandre is nearby when he was hit so he will probably be seen to fairly quickly. Beric Dondarrion was killed several times and resurrected, but doesn't appear zombified because he hadn't spent days rotting in a river before being resurrected.

ADWD spoilers just in case.

Not to mention that the ADWD prologue was all about Varamyr dying and then living on by warging into a wolf. It has been established that Jon can warg into Ghost, that must have some significance.
This has already been discussed at length in another thread, but I don't think Jon's story is over yet.

celica00

You guys rock, but in case it is because of me, I don't mind if "spoilers" are written here, it's a "read book" thread after all

Daith

Ah rewatching I now remember why I liked the Sansa building Winterfell in the snow part. It's like the scene where Dany enters the fire and her dragons are born. Fire and blood. It gives her a purpose.

With Sansa she realizes it is where she belongs, Winterfell, the North and snow. Except unlike Dany who gets an army and dragons, Sansa is alone, no family and no Lady. Dany is dependent on others (to a point) whereas Sansa knows she can only depend on herself now. I find it a nice contrast.

Mickeroo

Burt Macklin wrote: »

Oberyn was an interesting character in the books, but really he was just a plot device to introduce the Sand Snakes and kickstart the action in Dorne.
He was never that central to the overall story and was only in 3 chapters.

Still was an absolute sickener when he died, but I guess Martin loves to subvert expectations.

Didnt think it subverted any expectations, was the first time I felt Martin was running out of ideas and becoming too predictable.

Burt Macklin

Mickeroo wrote: »

Didnt think it subverted any expectations, was the first time I felt Martin was running out of ideas and becoming too predictable.

Well maybe it didn't subvert expectations (this did happen after the Red Wedding after all), but it did subvert typical fantasy tropes of the cool heroic avenging character defeating the monstrous brute.

Have a look at the non-readers thread where half of them are convinced that Oberyn will win.

I know when I read it first I was pretty sure the Mountain would probably crush him. Then the fight starts with Oberyn gaining the upper hand and I started to believe that maybe this might have a happy ending.
And then we get that sickening crunch.

Should make for damn good television anyway!

joe123

turnikett1 wrote: »

I really hope he stays dead. Don't want anymore of this zombie craic ala zombie Catelyn. Once was more than enough!

I always think it takes away from a shows impact if dead characters have the chance of coming back. Keep them dead if they are dead.

We have another possible Zombie character and thats Brienne.

She was hung in a feast for crows and at the end of the last book she walked into the room when Jamie was captured. So they either cut her down before she choked or they did a zombie thing on her.

Is Baedric Dondarrion dead now? He was another cool character in the books.

I have a feeling Jon will be brought back to life by Mellisandre.

PhlegmyMoses

Haven't read ADWD in a good while, but Jon isn't even confirmed as dead in the most basic sense, right? He feels blood, it fades to black, but no confirmation of death. Might be remembering wrong.

Anyway, thought that scene with the mountain butchering people was bizarre. What was the purpose, to show him as a physically impressive monster? It's not like he was practicing for the fight with unskilled men being served up for slaughter.

Burt Macklin

Burt Macklin wrote: »

Well maybe it didn't subvert expectations (this did happen after the Red Wedding after all), but it did subvert typical fantasy tropes of the cool heroic avenging character defeating the monstrous brute.

Have a look at the non-readers thread where half of them are convinced that Oberyn will win.

I know when I read it first I was pretty sure the Mountain would probably crush him. Then the fight starts with Oberyn gaining the upper hand and I started to believe that maybe this might have a happy ending.
And then we get that sickening crunch.

Should make for damn good television anyway!

If they film the showdown between the Viper and the Mountain just like the books describe it, it will make for some serious viewing...

The Mountain just before killing The Viper wrote:

"I killed her screaming whelp. Then I raped her. Then I smashed her fúcking head in. Like this."

For us who know what's coming, it will be a tough watch. For the non-readers, I'm envisioning jaws dropped all over the place. Not only does Gregor kill this character we've come to love in the show, but he does it while gloating about the act which Oberyn was trying to avenge.

Also, I'd say we'll have to wait until the next episode or even the final one to see the Mountain screaming in agony from the poison.

Mickeroo

Burt Macklin wrote: »

Well maybe it didn't subvert expectations (this did happen after the Red Wedding after all), but it did subvert typical fantasy tropes of the cool heroic avenging character defeating the monstrous brute.

Have a look at the non-readers thread where half of them are convinced that Oberyn will win.

I know when I read it first I was pretty sure the Mountain would probably crush him. Then the fight starts with Oberyn gaining the upper hand and I started to believe that maybe this might have a happy ending.
And then we get that sickening crunch.

Should make for damn good television anyway!

Don't get me wrong, it's a great scene can't wait to see it. Just think Martin should start subverting his own tropes at some point rather than worrying about subverting the genre as a whole.

turnikett1

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Anyway, thought that scene with the mountain butchering people was bizarre. What was the purpose, to show him as a physically impressive monster? It's not like he was practicing for the fight with unskilled men being served up for slaughter.

I thought it was a pretty apt scene. When Jaime refutes Tyrion who asked if Ser Meryn Trant is going to be the champion, by saying "No, not Meryn" then switches to the scene of this massive hulking beast butchering scores of men as a past time, that was a pretty good indication of how (seemingly) fúcked Tyrion is! I thought it was perfect (if not a bit squeamish!)

bopper

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Anyway, thought that scene with the mountain butchering people was bizarre. What was the purpose, to show him as a physically impressive monster?

Isn't that purpose enough?

ArmaniJeanss

joe123 wrote: »

I always think it takes away from a shows impact if dead characters have the chance of coming back. Keep them dead if they are dead.

We have another possible Zombie character and thats Brienne.

She was hung in a feast for crows and at the end of the last book she walked into the room when Jamie was captured. So they either cut her down before she choked or they did a zombie thing on her.

She shouted a word at they started to hang her in AFfC. And the chapter ended.
Presumably they stopped because of what she said, so its not a zombie thing.
The word was likely 'sword', earlier she'd been told she'd to kill Jamie to survive and been give 'sword' or 'noose' as choices.

Tiddlypeeps

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Haven't read ADWD in a good while, but Jon isn't even confirmed as dead in the most basic sense, right? He feels blood, it fades to black, but no confirmation of death. Might be remembering wrong.

He was never confirmed dead, but if I recall correctly he was fitted with several new arrows and several new daggers about his person. I think it's safe to assume the injuries were fatal. The only way I can see him coming out of it alive is with supernatural help. That could come from a couple of different sources, but I definitely can't see him making a natural recovery from that.

TimeToShine

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

She shouted a word at they started to hang her in AFfC. And the chapter ended.
Presumably they stopped because of what she said, so its not a zombie thing.
The word was likely 'sword', earlier she'd been told she'd to kill Jamie to survive and been give 'sword' or 'noose' as choices.

Pretty sure GRRM confirmed at a convention that she shouted sword and wasn't hanged.

GerB40

TimeToShine wrote: »

Pretty sure GRRM confirmed at a convention that she shouted sword and wasn't hanged.

He did yeah.

turnikett1

Lame... As much as I like Brienne there was something sadistically pleasurable about seeing her getting hanged. Such an unglorious way to go after such a noble journey.

PhlegmyMoses

turnikett1 wrote: »

I thought it was a pretty apt scene. When Jaime refutes Tyrion who asked if Ser Meryn Trant is going to be the champion, by saying "No, not Meryn" then switches to the scene of this massive hulking beast butchering scores of men as a past time, that was a pretty good indication of how (seemingly) fúcked Tyrion is! I thought it was perfect (if not a bit squeamish!)

Yeah, but it's all a bit cartoonish. Just killing random, barely armed, unskilled weaklings that are thrown at him is a very in-your-face way of showing the viewer his violent nature. I actually laughed at how OTT it was when it happened.

Even if I had only watched the programme, I'd know that he raped women, sliced up a horse, was involved in killing babies, burnt his kid brother's face and that he is a bogeyman that everyone is afraid of. Him slaughtering smallfolk in King's Landing, seemingly as a hobby, was ridiculous.

poundapunnet

Cienciano wrote: »

I couldn't disagree more. Cersei in the book is probably the biggest cúnt character after Joffery. And never mind what she says or does, in her chapters where you can read what she thinks, she's a geebagcuntface. Can't wait to see her downfall, probably won't be for about 3 years though!

She's definitely a <snip> But what I'm saying is the way the show is pushing that and bashing people over the head with it at every opportunity is getting annoying. Changing the cooling in relations between her and Jaime was especially <snip>. Makes no sense for her as a character, and doesn't have a good impact on his arc either. It's been well established that she's vindictive, manipulative, not as clever as she thinks and completely heartless about the fates of everyone except her children and, until lately, Jaime. She's already been continuously in conflict with probably the most sympathetic character (Tyrion) for pretty much the entire run of the series, people aren't going to be rooting for her.

So getting other popular characters to chime in with anecdotes about what a horrible child she was and showing her being so pleased with the Mountain's slaughter is just a bit much. It's not that it's out of line with the character, it's just out of line with the depth of characterisation that we get for everyone else we spend that amount of time with. She's a mental <snip>, but constantly just reasserting that fact is a bit boring and cartoony by the standards of this programme

Burt Macklin

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Him slaughtering smallfolk in King's Landing, seemingly as a hobby, was ridiculous.

I was under the impression that they were prisoners, not smallfolk.
Agree with your general point though, the scene was a bit silly.
There were plenty of better ways they could have re-introduced him, maybe showing him rampaging through the Riverlands when a message arrives from the Crown.

Witcher

poundapunnet wrote: »

She's definitely a <snip>! But what I'm saying is the way the show is pushing that and bashing people over the head with it at every opportunity is getting annoying.

A few weeks ago people were complaining that the show was presenting her in a good light when she didn't deserve it. The show can't win no matter what it does really.

poundapunnet

Blay wrote: »

A few weeks ago people were complaining that the show was presenting her in a good light when she didn't deserve it. The show can't win no matter what it does really.

I wasn't one of those people so I stand by my remarks :pac:

bopper

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Even if I had only watched the programme, I'd know that he raped women, sliced up a horse, was involved in killing babies, burnt his kid brother's face and that he is a bogeyman that everyone is afraid of. Him slaughtering smallfolk in King's Landing, seemingly as a hobby, was ridiculous.

Really? You must have an exceptional memory so. I'm sure a lot of non book readers were in need of a brief reminder of a character who didn't appear at all the previous season, and for only about ten seconds the season before that.

username123

bopper wrote: »

Really? You must have an exceptional memory so. I'm sure a lot of non book readers were in need of a brief reminder of a character who didn't appear at all the previous season, and for only about ten seconds the season before that.

Yes, someone in work just asked me who the huge fella chopping up people was. When I reminded her he was the horses head fella from Season 1 she just looked confused.

PhlegmyMoses

bopper wrote: »

Really? You must have an exceptional memory so. I'm sure a lot of non book readers were in need of a brief reminder of a character who didn't appear at all the previous season, and for only about ten seconds the season before that.

Well I remembered all the stuff about him that was mentioned in the programme when writing my post. I think most people would too