Season 4 Episode 7 "Mockingbird": *HAVE NOT* read the books

kryogen

FortuneChip wrote: »

Oberyn is only finding his feet in the show. I think he'd be a great loss if the Mountain kills him, and yet... I can't see him winning.
I'd still feel that the Hound would need to "re-unite" with his brother.

Aiden Gillen is great, really like him. That said, how many different voices did he have in this episode alone? Ridiculous!

Not doing anything speculative here, but doesn't Podric look like a plump Gendry?

I fully expect Oberyn to get killed by the mountain.

Degag

Cianos wrote: »

This episode had one of the first "Ah here..." moments in all of GoT for me - the scene with The Hound and Arya versus the bounty hunters.

The bounty hunters would have been searching for days/weeks to track down The Hound. Then they have an opportunity to sneak attack when he's off guard, kneeling on the ground and blind sided, and one of them just jumps up on him and just bites his neck?!

Then, after saying the other guy is on her death list, Arya has all the time in the world to draw her sword and stab him in the heart while he just lets her. He doesn't move an inch and doesn't try to defend himself at all with his already drawn sword.

Really hope there aren't more lazily unrealistic scenes like that.

I don't think they were tracking him at all, just happened to come across him and try their luck.

FortuneChip

One brilliant decision in the episode was keeping Tyrion in shot while Oberyn went through his tour from Cersei.
Drinklage's changes in expression we're f*in gutwrenching. Yet another side to Tyrion's character. He's done more in the last two episodes than in the three previous seasons, therefore by default the Emmy is his again.
Deserved.

kryogen

Degag wrote: »

Well, they found out about Joffrey in their travels in this episode so news seems to travel fairly quick.

True enough, but Joffrey was a murdered king of the realm, not sure the happenings with Littlefinger would make such big news. Or would he even allow the news out?

They could find out of course, but look how long it took for them to find out about the king

Just re watching the episode now, that slap is a thing of beauty

Degag

kryogen wrote: »

I fully expect Oberyn to get killed by the mountain.

Here's another theory I just thought of. Oberyn gets killed but he wounds The Mountain in the battle. Apparently he likes to put poison on his sword?

So The Mountain also dies and Tyrion is found innocent.

wp_rathead

castletownman wrote: »

Oh and that Robyn chap has definitely taken the mantle as the most annoying character on the show

An impressive feat considering he has to compete with his mother and Sansa in Eyrie alone

kryogen

Degag wrote: »

Here's another theory I just thought of. Oberyn gets killed but he wounds The Mountain in the battle. Apparently he likes to put poison on his sword?

So The Mountain also dies and Tyrion is found innocent.

He likes to put poison on his sword?

Dunno what would happen in that situation then, both champions dead, a mis trial maybe

Degag

kryogen wrote: »

He likes to put poison on his sword?

Dunno what would happen in that situation then, both champions dead, a mis trial maybe

Think someone said it in last weeks thread.

J. Marston

GottaGetGatt wrote: »

Highlight of the Episode for me.Great scene

"I will be your champion."

You could see it coming but it didn't make it any less epic. Loved the emotion in his voice too when he said "What about what I want?".

He's a brilliant character. He'll probably be killed in the next episode now .

kryogen

Degag wrote: »

Think someone said it in last weeks thread.

I do think I remember a reference to it now actually, someone called him Viper I think

thefa

Degag wrote: »

I said basically the same about Ned in Season 1. Never thought he'd be killed off so nothing would surprise me regarding Tyrion. Also when the Hound was up against Beric, in the trial by combat, I expected Beric to win based on how the story progressed but he didn't. Aso, surely we're going to see The Hound vs The Mountain??!!!

What I was getting at in my last post was that a lot of the major deaths have either been the catalyst for big plots or seen the end of plots that were dying off or were excessive. Like Ned's death sparked Robb's rebellion. Visery wasn't needed. Khal Drogo's death put Dany down the whole birthing Dragons and starting from scratch instead of having a ready made army. The red wedding deaths were at a time when Robb had lost half his army and the war was looking lost.

I think Tyrion and Oberyn dying would kill off two very good characters and to little benefit besides resolving the trial. All we hear of the mountain is of his brutality and no one would mind seeing him go. That said, it's been a season of popular deaths so far with the likes of Joffrey, Locke, Karl Tanner and Lysa dying so Oberyn and Tyrion would more than balance it out!

seligehgit

Can anybody else see Oberyn decreasing the Mountain?

Degag

Looking at it purely from a casting point of view, I might favour Oberyn. They've recast The Mountain 3 times and have now cast a Norwegian strongman with little or no acting experience (forgive me if this is inaccurate, I don't want to google it incase I run into spoilers) and in his scene with Cersei, he didn't do much to discredit this. If he was staying around a bit longer - they may have cast an actor?

jimmy180sx

Degag wrote: »

Looking at it purely from a casting point of view, I might favour Oberyn. They've recast The Mountain 3 times and have now cast a Norwegian strongman with little or no acting experience (forgive me if this is inaccurate, I don't want to google it incase I run into spoilers) and in his scene with Cersei, he didn't do much to discredit this. If he was staying around a bit longer - they may have cast an actor?

To be fair, i don't think there are many 8ft walking man mountain actors out there.

Degag

jimmy180sx wrote: »

To be fair, i don't think there are many 8ft walking man mountain actors out there.

Nope definitely not. Just an observation.

kryogen

The Mountain doesn't seem to be a huge character though, more a tool, a weapon of the Lannisters if you will. Brought forth when needed but nothing else learned about him to keep his mystique and legend intact.

I would like to think Oberyn will be the one to cut down the mountain, but I just can't see it. It is Game of Thrones after all, though I expect a twist of some sort ultimately I think Oberyn will die at the hands of The Mountain.

Degag

I'm a bit surprised that Tywin has allowed for The Mountain to be picked since he doesn't actually want Tyrion dead though I have to say.

Cianos

Degag wrote: »

I don't think they were tracking him at all, just happened to come across him and try their luck.

Maybe, but I don't think it makes any of the points less valid unfortunately.

Dan_Solo

ringadingding wrote: »

The hound letting his guard down seemed a but forced to me.

+1 on this.
As is the GoT trope now, it's "look how evil this guy is in case you forgot."
He made poor Sandor cry, the big meanie!

Thought it was a middling episode myself. Some of the scenes didn't really advance the storyline one inch. The wall, the red witch, San + Arya... even that Dany scene was a bit... and? King's Landing/Aerie/Brienne bits at least something actually happened in them besides waffle.

SeanJ09

At the end there, Lysa mentioned that all the people that came between her and Littlefinger are now dead- Jon Arryn, Catelyn and Hoster Tully. Since Lysa was responsible for the death of Jon Arryn, was she insinuating that she had something to do with the deaths of her sister and father also perhaps?

Burt Macklin

Cianos wrote: »

Then they have an opportunity to sneak attack when he's off guard, kneeling on the ground and blind sided, and one of them just jumps up on him and just bites his neck?!

Biter's gonna bite!

Edit: Context http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Biter

K_user

Cianos wrote: »

This episode had one of the first "Ah here..." moments in all of GoT for me - the scene with The Hound and Arya versus the bounty hunters.

The bounty hunters would have been searching for days/weeks to track down The Hound. Then they have an opportunity to sneak attack when he's off guard, kneeling on the ground and blind sided, and one of them just jumps up on him and just bites his neck?!

Then, after saying the other guy is on her death list, Arya has all the time in the world to draw her sword and stab him in the heart while he just lets her. He doesn't move an inch and doesn't try to defend himself at all with his already drawn sword.

Really hope there aren't more lazily unrealistic scenes like that.

I would have to disagree.

These "bounty hunters" were just common as muck soldiers. Its doubtful that it was a planned attack, more like a "oh **** thats the hound lets get him" sort of situation.

And as for the man that Arya killed. Was he expecting to be killed by this little girl? Most would be watching the Hound for sudden movements.

Arya's training back in KL was all about speed, not strength. Watching her train last week, we saw a glimpse into that. She referred to it as dancing, rather than fighting. Its all footwork and jabs.

This is also the first time she killed someone face to face. It was a big moment. There was no hesitation. Just a strike. Right through the heart. It was similar to her attack on the hound, where she learned the importance of armour.

Degag

Watched that scene with Arya and The Hound again. Arya strikes pretty fast - doesn't give yer man much time to react.

Also love how she wipes her blade on his clothing copying The Hound!

Duckworth_Luas

K_user wrote: »

This is also the first time she killed someone face to face. It was a big moment. There was no hesitation. Just a strike. Right through the heart. It was similar to her attack on the hound, where she learned the importance of armour.

The first man!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mb3tu5Wfp34

Witcher

She killed Polliver in the inn during the first episode.

K_user

Dan_Solo wrote: »

+1 on this.
As is the GoT trope now, it's "look how evil this guy is in case you forgot."
He made poor Sandor cry, the big meanie!.

The Hounds scene was not only a vital recap, for those that might not remember the history between him and his brother, but also an important development of his character.

The Hound has always been a monosyllabic fighting machine. Now, for the first time, he has realised how much danger he's in. The Lannisters are out to get him. His only friend is his prisoner. And she wants to kill him.

He has come full circle. He's now a complete character. Which means, in GOT terms, he's going to be killed, or have his world so turned upside down that his scars are going to be mere tickles in comparison!

Arya on the other hand is starting to feel powerful. She is growing as he is failing.

Can't wait to see where it all leads.

Dan_Solo wrote: »

... even that Dany scene was a bit... and?

I really liked Dany's scene.

For the first time she "used" a man, rather than being used. This is a complete role reversal from where she started. She is now the boss. She is now in control. Not only of herself, but of what others will do for her.

And even after Lord Friendzone had his heart torn out, she gave him something back.

A few weeks ago people were complaining that Dany was yet again attacking a city, it had all been done before. Now we see her make difficult decisions, while sorting out the internal issues of her nearest and dearest. All without breaking a sweat. Almost Tywin like.

K_user

Blay wrote: »

She killed Polliver in the inn during the first episode.

Not "face to face".

She struck Polliver from behind, he was essentially helpless on the floor.

This was an armed man. Face to face. Had he seen it coming, even the hound wouldn't be fast enough to save her.

K_user

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

The first man!

Boy...and he walked into the sword. Not really the same thing as facing an armed soldier, drawing her sword and sticking it in his heart.

She also killed that soldier on the road, the one that was mocking the death of Rob. But again she waited until he went for her dropped coin.

2ndcoming

Loved this episode. You can feel that it's gathering pace to another shock death or two in the next couple. I can't imagine it will be Tyrion, but while watching that last scene in the Eyrie I was full sure Sansa was about to fly, just serves to remind you that you can't be sure of anything in this show. Surely the young Lord of the Vale will be following his mother next time around?

Can't wait to see what way the trial by combat goes, surely the good guys can't win... this is Game of Thrones after all. Heart broke for Tyrion while Oberyn talked to him. Surely Cersei is going to get hers eventually! I thought Joffrey got off a bit lightly ultimately, really want to see her suffer now!

Paddy Cow

K_user wrote: »

Not "face to face".

She struck Polliver from behind, he was essentially helpless on the floor.

This was an armed man. Face to face. Had he seen it coming, even the hound wouldn't be fast enough to save her.

She stabs one guy in the chest. Then she stabs Polliver in the back and while he's on the floor she stabs him through the throat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQQU4RzH-mI

Grimebox

I love the way you can genuinely route for any character to die in this. Nobody is invincible unlike almost every other story ever told. I was really hoping Sansa was done for

Anachrony

Cianos wrote: »

Maybe, but I don't think it makes any of the points less valid unfortunately.

Yes, yes it does. Your entire concept of what took place was fundamentally off. If what you thought was happening what what happened, then yes, it would have been very strange. But all of your points are predicated on a set of faulty assumptions. You were viewing it as a scene of professional bounty hunters finally catching up to their prey and choosing this moment to execute their perfect ambush. Which is not at all an accurate picture of what happened, in any sense.

It's understandable that you wouldn't remember the pair of prisoners from season 2, but they anticipated that and specifically reminded you of them. One provided his name to Arya, but his crazy toothsome partner was also in that same cage with him. Would some criminally insane mute who bites people be a professional bounty hunter with a well formed plan of how to take down the Hound? No, and that's not what happened in that scene. It was a stupid way to attack, because that guy isn't the disciplined professional that you thought they were. He's not even remotely sane.

The Lannisters didn't hire professional bounty hunters, they just put the word out there among the general population that there was a bounty. In hope that some lucky idiots might stumble upon him and manage to collect. These idiots stumbled upon him and decided to do just that.

It's probably no coincidence that they found them where they did. The scene started with an old man dying of his injuries, but who inflicted them? How long has he been dying, and how far away have his killers gone? These criminals may have been lurking in the area because they're the ones who killed that guy, and then they happen to notice another opportunity and make an ill advised attack on someone much more capable than them.

Cianos wrote: »

Then, after saying the other guy is on her death list, Arya has all the time in the world to draw her sword and stab him in the heart while he just lets her. He doesn't move an inch and doesn't try to defend himself at all with his already drawn sword.

This petty criminal was shocked senseless and trying to decide whether he had a better chance trying to flee or surrender (probably neither would have worked). He didn't immediately piece together the bizarre idea that this little girl was a hardened killer who had him marked for death, when a much more obvious hardened killer had just killed his friend and was currently staring him down. Arya could have said just about anything in that moment and most of his attention would still be on the Hound.

And Arya didn't take all the time in the world, by the way. Once she started to attack it went down pretty quickly. The approach itself was slow, but if she was dismissed as a non-combatant and the Hound was the threat, the time it took her to approach and talk to him is irrelevant.

mrkite77

Cianos wrote: »

The bounty hunters would have been searching for days/weeks to track down The Hound. Then they have an opportunity to sneak attack when he's off guard, kneeling on the ground and blind sided, and one of them just jumps up on him and just bites his neck?!

Then, after saying the other guy is on her death list, Arya has all the time in the world to draw her sword and stab him in the heart while he just lets her. He doesn't move an inch and doesn't try to defend himself at all with his already drawn sword.

One, I doubt they were searching for the Hound, they just got lucky. Two, we already know they're not very good at their jobs since they were being sent to the Wall when we first met them (implying that even someone as inept as the goldcloaks were able to catch them). Three, watch that scene again, Arya kills him very quickly.

Da Shins Kelly

Really liked this episode. I'm gonna miss Oberyn as he is surely going to get his arse kicked by The Mountain. Just can't see it going any other way. Can't see Tyrion wriggling his way out of another trial by combat. It has already happened once.

Very interested to see where the Littlefinger story goes. Is Sansa just in another situation now where she's basically being held by someone she doesn't want to be with? Littlefinger's a real creep with the way he goes on about her. And what's going to happen to the little sh*t of a son?

It's unlikely Brienne is going to get anywhere near Sansa, I don't think, and I can't see Arya even making it to the aunt's place at this stage. Maybe they'll get intercepted by Brienne and Podrick? Is Brienne really going to try and bring her back to King's Landing where she'll surely just end up dead or in an arranged marriage? Weird how she just kind of switches allegiances. Like, she's going to hand over the children of the woman she once served to the people who murdered her.

Are we supposed to really trust that dude that Danaerys is with now? Jorah seemed uncertain about him. Is there a chance that that could backfire on Danaerys?

Loving how powerful Arya is getting. I really like her. Desperate for her to get her vengeance!

ceadaoin.

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

It's unlikely Brienne is going to get anywhere near Sansa, I don't think, and I can't see Arya even making it to the aunt's place at this stage. Maybe they'll get intercepted by Brienne and Podrick? Is Brienne really going to try and bring her back to King's Landing where she'll surely just end up dead or in an arranged marriage? Weird how she just kind of switches allegiances. Like, she's going to hand over the children of the woman she once served to the people who murdered her.

Jamie sent her to find Sansa and keep her safe. He knows Cersei is looking for her and wanted to get to her first. Nothing was said about bringing her back to kings landing

fluke

Methinks I'm gonna have to leave this thread (and forum) altogether. Feel like it's become a place for some book readers to vacate and mess around.

Dan_Solo

If yer man was so kerrazzzy that he just jumps on opponents and they had no real plan, how come they snuck up on Sandor well enough to surprise him? How did he last more than 2 seconds in the army fighting like that? And kid or no kid, he was together enough to have a conversation but somehow so frozen to the spot he wouldn't even raise his sword?
Let's face it, if Tyrion shot Cersei with a rocket launcher and Rob Snow danced a can can some people would insist that was normal behaviour and in context for the show.

Witcher

Dan_Solo wrote: »

If yer man was so kerrazzzy that he just jumps on opponents and they had no real plan, how come they snuck up on Sandor well enough to surprise him? How did he last more than 2 seconds in the army fighting like that? And kid or no kid, he was together enough to have a conversation but somehow so frozen to the spot he wouldn't even raise his sword?
Let's face it, if Tyrion shot Cersei with a rocket launcher and Rob Snow danced a can can some people would insist that was normal behaviour and in context for the show.

Those two weren't soldiers, they were the scrapings of the barrel Yoren got when he came to KL looking for NW recruits. They escaped when he was killed and have obviously been killing the smallfolk since then.

Dan_Solo

mrkite77 wrote: »

One, I doubt they were searching for the Hound, they just got lucky. Two, we already know they're not very good at their jobs since they were being sent to the Wall when we first met them (implying that even someone as inept as the goldcloaks were able to catch them). Three, watch that scene again, Arya kills him very quickly.

Ah now... nobody gets sent to the wall for being bad at their job, do they? That's never happened n the show. And they had at least managed to kill all the guys in that house which looked a fair battle from the mess.
Staring into space waiting to die just makes no sense.

Anachrony

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Ah now... nobody gets sent to the wall for being bad at their job, do they?

They do if their job is illegal and they are bad enough at it to be caught by incompetent law enforcement. They were petty criminals, and not great at it. They survived in the chaos since by killing the weak, not people like the Hound.

Dan_Solo wrote: »

If yer man was so kerrazzzy that he just jumps on opponents and they had no real plan, how come they snuck up on Sandor well enough to surprise him?

I'm not sure how being a mentally ill mute precludes someone from creeping up behind a distracted knight. Creeping up and killing civilians would be entirely within his wheelhouse, while successfully killing armored knights would not be. The Hound is very good at killing people with swords in open combat, but it doesn't follow that he is omniscient.

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Let's face it, if Tyrion shot Cersei with a rocket launcher and Rob Snow danced a can can some people would insist that was normal behaviour and in context for the show.

Who needs a rocket launcher? I figure if we just gave you a crossbow, you could win the whole war, isn't that right?

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Like I said, give me a crossbow then and I'll beat every man on earth in single combat.

Dan_Solo

Anachrony wrote: »

They do if their job is illegal and they are bad enough at it to be caught by incompetent law enforcement. They were petty criminals, and not great at it. They survived in the chaos since by killing the weak, not people like the Hound.

Apparently not even people like Arya. Even that auld lad, how did they beat him with those bite-and-freeze tactics? :-)

Anachrony wrote: »

I'm not sure how being a mentally ill mute precludes someone from creeping up behind a distracted knight. Creeping up and killing civilians would be entirely within his wheelhouse, while successfully killing armored knights would not be. The Hound is very good at killing people with swords in open combat, but it doesn't follow that he is omniscient.

Then I don't see how it precluded him from hitting Sandor with a sword, hell even a stick. You put all that effort into creeping up and then try to eat your opponent to death?

Anachrony wrote: »

Who needs a rocket launcher? I figure if we just gave you a crossbow, you could win the whole war, isn't that right?

Which neatly sidesteps the fact that some people will excuse anything and everything in a TV show they are fans of. It reminds me a lot of the Whovians, and their desperation to explain away any ridiculous impossibility or internal contradiction with the most outlandish theories. It's some sort of total immersion thing, they just can't believe it's a TV show and some bits are just poorly written.

Pepe LeFrits

I knew Dan solo reminded me of someone.

Anachrony

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Apparently not even people like Arya. Even that auld lad, how did they beat him with those bite-and-freeze tactics? :-)

You did notice that the bite guy was dead at that point, so they were already out of their tactical comfort zone by the time Arya dispatched him? They went from two on one against the old guy to two against one the other way, and the one who killed him was the one he didn't realize was a threat.

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Then I don't see how it precluded him from hitting Sandor with a sword, hell even a stick.

The fact that he was established two seasons ago as someone who has teeth filed down to points for some reason? Who does that? Not rational people who hit people with sticks.

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Which neatly sidesteps the fact that some people will excuse anything and everything in a TV show they are fans of.

Actually it highlights how poor your understanding of tactics are and that you have a pretty extensive record of being wrong about everything.

Dan_Solo

K_user wrote: »

I really liked Dany's scene.

For the first time she "used" a man, rather than being used. This is a complete role reversal from where she started. She is now the boss. She is now in control. Not only of herself, but of what others will do for her.

I don't get it. Wasn't this obvious from the day Daario killed all his own mates because he fancied Dany so much? Was there any doubt he'd do the horizontal boogie with her if "ordered" to do so? Wouldn't anybody?

Dan_Solo

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

I knew Dan solo reminded me of someone.

Well the first line might remind you of me, but the second line (the bizarre explanation) is some other people here surely!

Dan_Solo

Anachrony wrote: »

You did notice that the bite guy was dead at that point, so they were already out of their tactical comfort zone by the time Arya dispatched him? They went from two on one against the old guy to two against one the other way, and the one who killed him was the one he didn't realize was a threat.

So if a kid, a mate of one of the most dangerous men in Westeros, came up to you waving a sword you'd just ignore them? OK... It just makes no sense to me that he was cool enough to carry on a conversation with Sandro and Arya and then paralysed with fear enough to not defend himself at all. He'd obviously killed plenty of people before, why not just add Arya to the list?

Anachrony wrote: »

The fact that he was established two seasons ago as someone who has teeth filed down to points for some reason? Who does that? Not rational people who hit people with sticks.

Well filing down your teeth because you like biting people makes some sort of sense in itself... like The Hound said though, you win fights with swords and armour. Diving at people biting sounds like a career shortening tactic to me!

Anachrony wrote: »

Actually it highlights how poor your understanding of tactics are and that you have a pretty extensive record of being wrong about everything.

No, I think you'll find that it's you that hasn't a clue about anything at all in the universe.
I can think of a million tactics that are better than "stand back and let the crazy guy bite the most dangerous man in Westeros, then stand paralysed while I get stabbed." Real Tywin Lannister strategic genius stuff there! LOL.

Anachrony

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I can think of a million tactics that are better than "stand back and let the crazy guy bite the most dangerous man in Westeros, then stand paralysed while I get stabbed."

No doubt most of those plans involve crossbows. Too bad it was just some idiot criminal standing there and not you.

Pepe LeFrits

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Well the first line might remind you of me, but the second line (the bizarre explanation) is some other people here surely!

I couldn't find any with his weaponry related quotes

Dan_Solo

Anachrony wrote: »

No doubt most of those plans involve crossbows. Too bad it was just some idiot criminal standing there and not you.

I would've thought a murderous criminal would be more likely to defend himself than a non-murderous criminal, but what do I know, eh? If you can last a few years in war torn Westeros biting people and wetting your pants then I guess it's not all that tough a place...

Dan_Solo

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

I couldn't find any with his weaponry related quotes

But you found one with an explanation as preposterous as "he likes biting people" and "sometimes thugs just have a little chat and let themselves be stabbed"!

Come to think of it, didn't Bitey and Useless first show up in a cage because they were supposedly too dangerous to allow them to just travel as normal like most prisoners who had opted for the The Wall?