Season 4 Episode 7 "Mockingbird": *HAVE NOT* read the books

K_user

Paddy Cow wrote: »

She stabs one guy in the chest. Then she stabs Polliver in the back and while he's on the floor she stabs him through the throat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQQU4RzH-mI

She hit a guy in the head, and while he was struggling with consciousness, she impaled him. Polliver was hit from behind, and she stabbed him in the throat while he was helpless.

Both were attacks from a position of power. Both were kills from where she was in control and was able to take her time. Had she not slashed Polliver first, by surprise, there would have been a very different out come. One that didn't involve a long revenge speech.

In this episode she faced a guy, who already had a drawn sword. There was no sneak attack. No hitting on the head from behind, distracting coin toss, or surprise slash on his back.

She was face to face with a soldier, granted just a grunt, and she pulled a sword and killed him.

This was the first time that Arya openly faced a man. Granted he probably wasn't expecting it. But it was still the first time that she killed someone who was looking right at her, who had the capability to fight back and who was armed.

IrishAlice

Really enjoyed last night's episode, it's setting things up well for the final 3 I think.

Oberyn is fast becoming one of my favorite characters, really hope he doesn't die!

Littlefinger is really starting to show just how dangerous he is. What a scene!! God I'm glad Lysa is gone, now just need to get rid of Robin.

Really don't get all of the Sansa hate?? I really think she's been kept alive all this time for a reason.

K_user

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I don't get it. Wasn't this obvious from the day Daario killed all his own mates because he fancied Dany so much? Was there any doubt he'd do the horizontal boogie with her if "ordered" to do so? Wouldn't anybody?

This has nothing to do with what Daario wanted. It was all to do with Dany and what she wanted. That is a complete turn around for her character, compared to when we first met her.


(*Where do you sign up for that job? )

Dan_Solo

K_user wrote: »

This has nothing to do with what Daario wanted. It was all to do with Dany and what she wanted. That is a complete turn around for her character, compared to when we first met her.


(*Where do you sign up for that job? )

How can you say it had nothing to do with Daario! He wanted Dany right from the start! Ordering a man to do something he's been desperate to do for ages doesn't seem all that amazing. The manipulation of the two lads, playing them off against one another is devious, and possibly a bigger character development in my mind. Not the kind of thing the generally straight forward Daenarys would've done up to this point.

K_user

Dan_Solo wrote: »

So if a kid, a mate of one of the most dangerous men in Westeros, came up to you waving a sword you'd just ignore them? OK... It just makes no sense to me that he was cool enough to carry on a conversation with Sandro and Arya and then paralysed with fear enough to not defend himself at all. He'd obviously killed plenty of people before, why not just add Arya to the list?

If you were standing in front of the hound, knowing that he is a beast with a sword. Knowing that your friend had just attempted to kill him. Would you be really watching the barely old enough to be a teenage girl?

The soldier, probably not the brightest, was probably very confused as to why the the hound was asking him his name and barely moving. I would.

K_user

Dan_Solo wrote: »

How can you say it had nothing to do with Daario! He wanted Dany right from the start! Ordering a man to do something he's been desperate to do for ages doesn't seem all that amazing.

The decision was hers. Not his. His "lust" had nothing to do with what happened.

Dan_Solo wrote: »

The manipulation of the two lads, playing them off against one another is devious, and possibly a bigger character development in my mind. Not the kind of thing the generally straight forward Daenarys would've done up to this point.

You seem to not have read my previous point of how Dany was almost Tywin like in her new dealings with ruling and her allies?

K_user wrote: »

A few weeks ago people were complaining that Dany was yet again attacking a city, it had all been done before. Now we see her make difficult decisions, while sorting out the internal issues of her nearest and dearest. All without breaking a sweat. Almost Tywin like.

Billy86

Dempsey wrote: »

All the interactions with Tyrion were excellent. The Oberyn vs Mountain battle was well telegraphed on here, i wonder if it was non book readers reading spoilers, but the plot development & dialogue to get there was still gripping. Oberyn is going to make short work of the Mountain imo although I do think the Mountain taunting him could force a rush of blood to the head.

The rest was filler by comparison

To be honest I thought it was reasonably obvious (but still very well done) from the cutaways to Oberyn in the trial scenes where his reactions were a lot different to others, to his talk with Varys of training with the unsullied, and also that Tywin promised him the Mountain a few episodes back if I recall.

I thought it was great how Bronn stepped aside without having to turn sides or anything also.

Really hoping Oberyn wins out of course and I marine he will, but being GOT and with the Hounds talk of knights/training/etc not being worth anything and Bronn's of one wrong step, I still have a kind of sinking feeling that the Mountain might just slaughter him in a brutally one sided fight. What he mentioned about the Mountain being 'the first' though makes me think he will likely win out.

FutureGuy

fluke wrote: »

Methinks I'm gonna have to leave this thread (and forum) altogether. Feel like it's become a place for some book readers to vacate and mess around.

I'm going to say this as someone who had a few of the events of this season spoiled before its start - Jeoffry's death, who was responsible, the trial and the participants of the upcoming trial by battle.

I'm saying it now - I'm confident that there are certain people posting here who are posting "predictions" based on foreknowledge.

It's one of the reason I am not posting here this season.

K_user

Billy86 wrote: »

To be honest I thought it was reasonably obvious (but still very well done) from the cutaways to Oberyn in the trial scenes where his reactions were a lot different to others, to his talk with Varys of training with the unsullied, and also that Tywin promised him the Mountain a few episodes back if I recall.

I thought it was great how Bronn stepped aside without having to turn sides or anything also.

Really hoping Oberyn wins out of course and I marine he will, but being GOT and with the Hounds talk of knights/training/etc not being worth anything and Bronn's of one wrong step, I still have a kind of sinking feeling that the Mountain might just slaughter him in a brutally one sided fight. What he mentioned about the Mountain being 'the first' though makes me think he will likely win out.

Bronn said it all. He's a sellsword who has been handsomely paid. He has more now than he ever thought he'd have. Why get killed for friendship?

Oberyn came to KL looking for a fight. He wants to kill the Mountain. Sitting on the small council was just for fun. He knows Tywin is looking for an alliance, so he's in a position of complete power. Getting Tyrion off would be a complete win-win. He'd annoy the Lannisters and get some of his revenge. If he dies, his family, and country would be even more p*ssed off. Tywin would be SOL if he went looking for an alliance in the future.

Dan_Solo

K_user wrote: »

The decision was hers. Not his. His "lust" had nothing to do with what happened.

I've no idea what that means. If the decision wasn't hers then Daario would have to rape her to get what he wanted anyway.
How is it a display of power to order people to do what they already wanted to do, and was plain as day to everybody including Daenarys that he wanted to? If Tywin orders Tyrion to get drunk in a brothel, does that mean he has finally got Tryion under his thumb?

Dan_Solo

K_user wrote: »

If you were standing in front of the hound, knowing that he is a beast with a sword. Knowing that your friend had just attempted to kill him. Would you be really watching the barely old enough to be a teenage girl?

The soldier, probably not the brightest, was probably very confused as to why the the hound was asking him his name and barely moving. I would.

I wouldn't be having a conversation with her neither. Chop. Why wait? Any vicious criminal from King's Landing would surely have come across kids well able to kill before, not to mention wouldn't have any qualms about doing them in either.
I'm not even sure why The Hound let Arya near Rorge for a duel or whatever. What the hell was he thinking letting them have that stand off? She dies and he loses the last bargaining chip he has.

kryogen

I agree that Dany commanding your man to get naked and have sex with her is not much of a display of power, its something the guy clearly wanted since they met. Commanding himself and the other guy to get down to the nasty in front of her for her amusement would have been a better demonstration of her power and authority over them.....though, not a nice image.

Dan_Solo

Billy86 wrote: »

Really hoping Oberyn wins out of course and I marine he will, but being GOT and with the Hounds talk of knights/training/etc not being worth anything and Bronn's of one wrong step, I still have a kind of sinking feeling that the Mountain might just slaughter him in a brutally one sided fight. What he mentioned about the Mountain being 'the first' though makes me think he will likely win out.

I know he's a colossus and obvious has a bit of a mean streak, but it's hard to get a sense of how good a scrapper Gregor is without seeing him in any proper combat. Smashing puny slaves for a few seconds didn't give me any real sense that he's the best fighter around, a scene or two of him doing some real damage as build up would've been nice.

Dan_Solo

kryogen wrote: »

I agree that Dany commanding your man to get naked and have sex with her is not much of a display of power, its something the guy clearly wanted since they met. Commanding himself and the other guy to get down to the nasty in front of her for her amusement would have been a better demonstration of her power and authority over them.....though, not a nice image.

And I'm pretty sure Daenarys was somewhat getting her way in the sack with Drogo in season 1? She started off submissive, but was giving him some (most agreeable) orders after a while IIRC.

Mickeroo

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I know he's a colossus and obvious has a bit of a mean streak, but it's hard to get a sense of how good a scrapper Gregor is without seeing him in any proper combat. Smashing puny slaves for a few seconds didn't give me any real sense that he's the best fighter around, a scene or two of him doing some real damage as build up would've been nice.

He chops a horses head off in season 1 and fights the hound though it didn't go on very long. Would have been better if they had showed him out pillaging or something though yeah, I found the scene we got a bit silly.

Hippo

Big improvement on the last couple of episodes, though Daario is rapidly becoming the most irritating character. Mind you, that actor was irritating in Treme too...

Turtyturd

It's been stated loads of times how fierce and feared he is, and Mickeroo said there was the scene at the tourney....they really should be able to give viewers a bit of credit and not need to reinforce it on a weekly basis.

IrishAlice

Turtyturd wrote: »

It's been stated loads of times how fierce and feared he is, and Mickeroo said there was the scene at the tourney....they really should be able to give viewers a bit of credit and not need to reinforce it on a weekly basis.

I've been watching GoT since the start and I still need the little reminders of the characters, there's just so many to keep up with.

Plus I won't google anything in case I stumble upon any spoilers

eyeball kid

Hippo wrote: »

Big improvement on the last couple of episodes, though Daario is rapidly becoming the most irritating character. Mind you, that actor was irritating in Treme too...

Thats where I recognise him from! thanks.

Nerdlingr

Mickeroo wrote: »

He chops a horses head off in season 1 and fights the hound though it didn't go on very long. Would have been better if they had showed him out pillaging or something though yeah, I found the scene we got a bit silly.

Yeah, thought if they showed him in one of the villages pillagaing and murdering innocent peasants and then being recalled, it might have been better. Show him accidently cutting off off one of the messengers heads mid-rage, slicing and dicing the local folk etc etc !

Mr. CooL ICE

IrishAlice wrote: »

I've been watching GoT since the start and I still need the little reminders of the characters, there's just so many to keep up with.

Plus I won't google anything in case I stumble upon any spoilers

I understand where you are coming from, but this is a great site. It only updates after an episode has been aired and contains no book spoilers. I wish I had found it earlier.

IrishAlice

LordChessington wrote: »

I understand where you are coming from, but this is a great site. It only updates after an episode has been aired and contains no book spoilers. I wish I had found it earlier.

Thanks! Finally somewhere I can safely browse. Ever since a workmate blabbed all about the red wedding and who died I've been extra cautious.

Those who haven't read the books beware - there are book readers here posing as your own kind.

Fúcking pathetic is what that is.

Dan_Solo

Hippo wrote: »

Big improvement on the last couple of episodes, though Daario is rapidly becoming the most irritating character. Mind you, that actor was irritating in Treme too...

Big improvement on that last episode with the trial scene? :eek: I find some of the King's Landing intrigue business boring, but for me the trial was the best of this whole season (yes, even better than Joff buying the farm).

STOP READING NOW.



Just had a load of stuff clearly spoilered. Very frustrating, really very frustrating.

golfball37

Brendan Filone wrote: »

The way Jorah puffed his chest and smirked his face like he did something special when she sent him off with his consolation prize was hilarious.

Highlight of the whole series for me. Jorah is surviving on crumbs these days the poor soul. The actor is doing a great job though

calex71

stankratz wrote: »

Those who haven't read the books beware - there are book readers here posing as your own kind.

Fúcking pathetic is what that is.

If you have issues with posts report them, what you are doing in that post is worse imo than anything that may or may not be a spoiler as you are giving credibility to those posts. I am aware of several posts here that may or may not be spoilers and may not be simply "guesses" but most non readers seeing them would just see them for guesses.

By the time I saw the posts I took the decision to leave them for the exact reason I outlined above , that calling attention to them may end up spoiling things for more people.

Hippo

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Big improvement on that last episode with the trial scene?

There was a great conclusion to the trial alright, but I felt much of the other material got us nowhere. There has been a definite 'treading water' feel to recent episodes, and the Theon rescue attempt, for instance was underwhelming in the extreme.

K_user

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I've no idea what that means. If the decision wasn't hers then Daario would have to rape her to get what he wanted anyway.

You have no idea what it means for a man not to be in control? Or don't understand that a man can fancy a woman and not rape her? I'm confused.

Daario could have desired after Dany for the rest of his life, but that is all that it was, desire from afar. He made it plain that he was interested, but the decision was hers. Jorah has his intentions written all over his face too, has she slept with him?

The decision to have sex was Dany's and Dany's alone.

Dan_Solo wrote: »

How is it a display of power to order people to do what they already wanted to do, and was plain as day to everybody including Daenarys that he wanted to? If Tywin orders Tyrion to get drunk in a brothel, does that mean he has finally got Tryion under his thumb?

You do understand that a woman deciding to sleep with a man is very different than a man sleeping with prostitutes?

celica00

stankratz wrote: »

Those who haven't read the books beware - there are book readers here posing as your own kind.

Fúcking pathetic is what that is.

some book readers actually enjoy reading and maybe posting here (without spoiling).
take it as a compliment, as the "read book" thread isnt as good haha

Dan_Solo

K_user wrote: »

You do understand that a woman deciding to sleep with a man is very different than a man sleeping with prostitutes?

In this context no, I don't.
Daenarys is the queen. She can have Daario's head if she felt like it. That's power. Asking a man to do what he wants to do anyway is not power. Just because she decided she wanted to have Daario herself doesn't mean she had any power over him just because he was up for it.
In fact, Tyrion displays more power in shagging a prostitute, as the prostitute probably doesn't really want to at all.

K_user

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I wouldn't be having a conversation with her neither. Chop. Why wait? Any vicious criminal from King's Landing would surely have come across kids well able to kill before, not to mention wouldn't have any qualms about doing them in either.

Could you please point out where the "vicious criminal" was in that scene?

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I'm not even sure why The Hound let Arya near Rorge for a duel or whatever. What the hell was he thinking letting them have that stand off? She dies and he loses the last bargaining chip he has.

What makes you think that the hound didn't have that situation under control?

He could have cut that man down in a heart beat. Instead he allowed Arya the chance. Perhaps it was a test. To see if she had it in her. He has watched her train. A man of his level would understand her capabilities. He has shown empathy over her desire for revenge. Practicing against a dolt is as good a place to start as any.

He pointed out himself that he has now got a massive target on his back. That the land between Arya and his cash is filled with Lannisters. Her value to him, and his plan for easy money, is fading fast.

celica00

Dan_Solo wrote: »

In this context no, I don't.
Daenarys is the queen. She can have Daario's head if she felt like it. That's power. Asking a man to do what he wants to do anyway is not power. Just because she decided she wanted to have Daario herself doesn't mean she had any power over him just because he was up for it.
In fact, Tyrion displays more power in shagging a prostitute, as the prostitute probably doesn't really want to at all.

I would say she still has power because if he was not up for it, she still could have forced him to it (just like getting his head if she wanted to).
So it was somehow power (and luck as he wanted to anyway)

Dan_Solo

K_user wrote: »

Could you please point out where the "vicious criminal" was in that scene?

Er, that's precisely my point actually. Where was the vicious criminal that had to be caged for the journey to The Wall because he was so dangerous? That had no problem slaughtering whole villages?

K_user wrote: »

What makes you think that the hound didn't have that situation under control?

He was yards behind her and didn't even get his sword out IIRC. He's good, but he can't teleport unless he's gained some superpowers we haven't been told about...

K_user

Dan_Solo wrote: »

In this context no, I don't.
Daenarys is the queen. She can have Daario's head if she felt like it. That's power. Asking a man to do what he wants to do anyway is not power. Just because she decided she wanted to have Daario herself doesn't mean she had any power over him just because he was up for it.

Well done. You said it yourself. Dany is the queen. The queen decided that they were going to have sex. Not Daario. His desires were secondary to hers.

Daenarys has asked men to die for her. She has had people executed. She has plans to crush all resistance around her before starting a war in another continent. All that required loyalty and money. None of it requires her to sleep with every man under her command.

Dan_Solo wrote: »

In fact, Tyrion displays more power in shagging a prostitute, as the prostitute probably doesn't really want to at all.

You do understand that you are saying that a man shows more power paying for sex than a woman deciding who she sleeps with of her own free will?

Dan_Solo

celica00 wrote: »

I would say she still has power because if he was not up for it, she still could have forced him to it (just like getting his head if she wanted to).
So it was somehow power (and luck as he wanted to anyway)

It was a show of power because it would have been a show of power if something completely different to what was on the screen had happened?
Um?

Dan_Solo

K_user wrote: »

You do understand that you are saying that a man shows more power paying for sex than a woman deciding who she sleeps with of her own free will?

Both Dany and Tyrion want to have sex. It is power if the other person doesn't want it.

K_user

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Er, that's precisely my point actually. Where was the vicious criminal that had to be caged for the journey to The Wall because he was so dangerous? That had no problem slaughtering whole villages?

Tywin dryly asked what it would take for an ordinary soldier to take on the hound. The reward was set at ten times the original amount. That is how much the man is feared/respected.

So who was the most dangerous in that scene?

Dan_Solo wrote: »

He was yards behind her and didn't even get his sword out IIRC. He's good, but he can't teleport unless he's gained some superpowers we haven't been told about...

I think it has been clearly pointed out that fighting is the one thing that the hound knows all about. He was comfortable with the situation. And, as it turns out, he was right.

Mickeroo

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Both Dany and Tyrion want to have sex. It is power if the other person doesn't want it.

Power in a relationship and forcing someone to do something they don't want through violence or coercion are not the same thing.

K_user

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Both Dany and Tyrion want to have sex. It is power if the other person doesn't want it.

No thats call rape.

This was a woman deciding that she wanted to have sex and initiating it.

K_user

Mickeroo wrote: »

Power in a relationship and forcing someone to do something they don't want through violence or coercion are not the same thing.

Dany had Daario declare his ever lasting loyalty, until his death, before she took the next step. The relationships dynamic is fairly obvious there.

Mickeroo

K_user wrote: »

Dany had Daario declare his ever lasting loyalty, until his death, before she took the next step. The relationships dynamic is fairly obvious there.

She's clearly attracted to him but is completely in control as far as I can see. I'm sure he's not complaining but he seems pretty under the thumb at the moment. Just because you give a dog a treat doesn't mean you're not its master.

pickarooney

K_user wrote: »

No thats call rape.

This was a woman deciding that she wanted to have sex and initiating it.

And what does everyone know rape is all about?

Eoin

Kind of cool: The "Dying Merchant" Scene In Game Of Thrones Was Straight From Beckett

Dan_Solo

Mickeroo wrote: »

Just because you give a dog a treat doesn't mean you're not its master.

Not the same thing. You don't get anything that you want by giving a dog a treat.
So any time anybody allows another person to do something they wanted to do anyway, that is power? The power is in not letting them, or making them when they don't want to.

Billy86

Dan_Solo wrote: »

+1 on this.
As is the GoT trope now, it's "look how evil this guy is in case you forgot."
He made poor Sandor cry, the big meanie!.

You may have missed the actual point of that scene.

Dan_Solo

K_user wrote: »

No thats call rape.

You do realise that prostitutes may not really want to have sex with their Johns but often have no power over whether do they do or not?

Mickeroo

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Not the same thing. You don't get anything that you want by giving a dog a treat.
So any time anybody allows another person to do something they wanted to do anyway, that is power? The power is in not letting them, or making them when they don't want to.

You get obedience and loyalty from a dog by giving them treats. I'm not saying there isn't a mutual thing between Dany and Daario, clearly there is, but she is the one in control, everything they do is on her terms. It's a bit naive (and a little strange) to suggest power can't exist within a relationship unless it's not consensual from both sides to be honest.

Dan_Solo

K_user wrote: »

I think it has been clearly pointed out that fighting is the one thing that the hound knows all about. He was comfortable with the situation. And, as it turns out, he was right.

Well you see that's the difference between you and me I guess. You say it turned out like X, therefore it all made sense because that's what happened.
I say it turned out like X but it couldn't really have given the situation.
It happened because that's what happened...:)

Dan_Solo

Mickeroo wrote: »

You get obedience and loyalty from a dog by giving them treats. I'm not saying there isn't a mutual thing between Dany and Daario, clearly there is, but she is the one in control, everything they do is on her terms. It's a bit naive (and a little strange) to suggest power can't exist within a relationship unless it's not consensual from both sides to be honest.

So Daenarys is gaining power from allowing Daario to shag her? The original premise was that allowing him to shag her was an expression of her power. Why would Daenarys need to gain any more power over him? He's already demonstrated he'll gladly die for her if commanded.