Desperate House Buys RTE One 9:40pm

ryan101

alias no.9 wrote: »

Whatever abut Cork, Galway simply isn't big enough to support a rapid scaling up of large Tech operations or to absorb the shutdown of one. They've done well concentrating on Medical Devices and are actually a model for other places in the creation of the kind of critical mass in an industry that makes them a global contender for investment in that industry.

That statement is self contradictory, you might as well claim Galway should never have opened any large medical device companies for the same reasons.
You have to start somewhere.

riclad

WE are competing with other eu countrys ,we cant just reduce the tax rate to
attract semi states .
WE already have one of the lowest tax rates in the eu.
I think we have the cluster effect in dublin.
There,s lots of tech companys based here,
other companys tend to follow them .

Companys look at alot of factors ,when looking at where to go,
office space, distance to the airport etc not just the cost of rent for workers .

I,D imagine if you are an it graduate with good skills / qualifications you,d probably prefer to
work in a city rather than a small rural town .

Balmed Out

riclad wrote: »

IF there were large tech companys based in cork , galway i don,t think they,d have
a problem attracting european workers .
Most young people come to dublin for work or for education reasons.
They, d go to other irish citys if the jobs were there.

People keep mentioning Cork here as if IT isnt a large employer. EMC and Apple may be the biggest but their not the only ones. In Ireland a lot of people move to a city for college or university and many seem to stay on there. Very few from Ireland but outside of Munster go to Cork and theres not a lot of people for outside of this area that stay to work for good. I would meet more English, Spanish, French, German and Dutch then Dubs.

ryan101

riclad wrote: »

I,D imagine if you are an it graduate with good skills / qualifications you,d probably prefer to
work in a city rather than a small rural town .

Why would that be so if your friends and family are there ? Also what's wrong with working in a regional city and living in a rural town ? Why is the Irish solution to date to concentrate on developing a mono city culture in Ireland ? It's not good for Dublin or the rest of Ireland.

jmayo

Just looking at the way this thread has panned out really shows how badly dependent on FDI we are and how some see it as our future.

Compare us to some other smaller European countries e.g Norway, Denmark, Finland and note how they are not so dependent on multinationals.

To most bloody Irish people an entrepreneur, particularly an Irish one, is someone that builds houses or does something construction related.

I have seen the way Irish banks have treated small indigenous Irish manufacturing companies and it makes me sick to the stomach when I then see how much money they pi**ed away during the building bubble.
It is at times like that I wouldn't mind seeing every one of major Irish banks go to the wall.

Someone mentioned on radio the other day about one of the big Irish banks climaing they were going to grow their loan book again to include about 50% property.
If that is true then it shows we have we learnt nothing ?

Having an interest in agriculture it is noticable how small countries like Norway, Denmark, Finland with no big industrial history yet have multinational companies competing at a top level in the areas of agricultural machinery.
As a country that was very much dependent on agriculture how come we never established and grew a manufacturing industry of some sort here based around agriculture bar that of the creameries/meet factories.

We now have only some smaller companies that have grown over the last 30 odd years in this area and I am more than proud to say a few of them are in Mayo.

And I would bet those companies would have no problem accessing funding during the bubble to build apartments on site rather than increased R&D or fund the entry into a new market.

gaius c

hfallada wrote: »

But its not international. No young person in their right mind would move to rural Ireland from a major city. Even on a decent wage, its just too boring

Must tell Coca Cola that they need to move their plant from Ballina to Clondalkin and the Wexford plant to Bray because some guy on the internet thinks it's in the wrong place and they won't be able to recruit people. Also Abbott need to pack up in Longford & Sligo and Merck in Clonmel & Carlow.

Reality is that young people will go where the jobs are. Right now, the jobs are in Dublin but Dublin is much too expensive for anything other than MNC transfer pricing headquarters.

@Stheno. You need to learn more about pharma if that's all you know about it. I've named a few of them above.

gaius c

ted1 wrote: »

The CSO ignores cash sales

That's irrelevant to his point, which is that RTE misrepresented 12 month CSO data as being from only the last 3 months.

Anyway, we have the PPR data, which does include cash sales.
Some graphs if you'd like a browse.

gaius c

ionapaul wrote: »

Agreed - even though Cork, Limerick or Galway are relatively attractive to many Irish people (though I'm from Galway city and probably won't ever move back, it's too small for my tastes, even Dublin isn't really cosmopolitan enough!), I don't see any chance to attract the quantity of highly-education European workers needed to anywhere in Ireland other than Dublin.

The Government has supposedly been pressured by various MNC executives to work to drive down the cost of accommodation in Dublin, in order to make the city as attractive as possible to these mainly transient workers - but they seem to be ignoring the request and driving ahead with policies designed to keep prices high...

This has been flagged by some of the pharma companies in Dublin and they have tried to get other pharma companies in Ireland to support them but the response has been "well why did you build in such an expensive place?".

It's starting to hit the likes of Pfizer, Amgen & BMS because the tradition of expat placements is under threat due to high rents. These expats would have expectations of living in D4, etc but when they see how much the rent takes out of their pay packet, they turn their nose up at it and the companies are not willing to spend even more to bridge that gap.

High property prices will cost us jobs. Our employment revival is almost completely based on MNC's and if we milk them through high salaries to keep property prices, we'll lose them, their jobs and eventually the high property prices too.

gaius c

riclad wrote: »

I think its to do with the no of young people here,in dublin
the infrastructure ,
airport , more than something from the 16th century.
The reason theres so many european workers coming here is because partly ,
our education system is not producing enough graduates skilled in it and foreign
languages to meet the demand.

IF there were large tech companys based in cork , galway i don,t think they,d have
a problem attracting european workers .
Most young people come to dublin for work or for education reasons.
They, d go to other irish citys if the jobs were there.

Look at the us, san francisco , many tech companys are based there ,
even though theres many other american citys where rents are cheaper and theres plenty of educated young people looking for work.

You're confusing San Fran with the entire Bay area. Anybody I know in the area lives in San Jose where rents are considerably cheaper.

drumswan

gaius c wrote: »

Must tell Coca Cola that they need to move their plant from Ballina to Clondalkin and the Wexford plant to Bray because some guy on the internet thinks it's in the wrong place and they won't be able to recruit people.

Coca Cola manufacture fizzy drinks, why would they need to attract highly skilled people from mainland Europe?

The likes of Google have to SELL jobs to people who have the pick of high paid jobs anywhere on the continent. They cannot sell Ballina as a place to live to these people, there is nothing there.

London has world class arts & theatre, Michelin star restaurants, cult craft beer bars, world class shopping, amazing 24hr clubs with world class DJs, concerts with the worlds biggest and most famous bands and artists all through the week, arthouse cinema, world class sports entertainment, premiership and international football, the worlds best museums and galleries, real street food, cult pop up shops, the West End, Camden, Greenwich, Kew Gardens, Hyde Park, the list goes on and on and on.

Thats what Dublin is competing against. Ballina is not a draw for these companies, end of.

Theboinkmaster

gaius c wrote: »

That's irrelevant to his point, which is that RTE misrepresented 12 month CSO data as being from only the last 3 months.

Anyway, we have the PPR data, which does include cash sales.
Some graphs if you'd like a browse.

Thanks, I'll be very interested in how the Dublin graph will look for 2014. Anyone care to speculate?!

gaius c

drumswan wrote: »

Coca Cola manufacture fizzy drinks, why would they need to attract highly skilled people from mainland Europe?

The likes of Google have to SELL jobs to people who have the pick of high paid jobs anywhere on the continent. They cannot sell Ballina as a place to live to these people, there is nothing there.

London has world class arts & theatre, Michelin star restaurants, cult craft beer bars, world class shopping, amazing 24hr clubs with world class DJs, concerts with the worlds biggest and most famous bands and artists all through the week, arthouse cinema, world class sports entertainment, premiership and international football, the worlds best museums and galleries, real street food, cult pop up shops, the West End, Camden, Greenwich, Kew Gardens, Hyde Park, the list goes on and on and on.

Thats what Dublin is competing against. Ballina is not a draw for these companies, end of.

Because you clearly know nothing about the technology required to mass produce concentrates that are sent sent elsewhere for the actual carbonation & bottling. They only invest significant amounts of money in equipment that can't be relocated to Poland, employ large numbers of people and comprise a good portion of our GDP.

Young people will go where there are jobs. That's why the new Glanbia facility near Castleblayney in Monaghan has a stack of CV's 2 metres high sent in cold by college-age youngsters desperate for a job, any job at all. They don't give a hoot about Michelin star restaurants, theatres, arthouse cinemas. That's why Spanish people are leaving sunny, warm Spain and coming to cold, damp & dreary Ireland/UK too. They want jobs.

But carry on with your "Dublin is Ireland and everything else is holiday homes" mantra.

ryan101

hfallada wrote: »

But its not international. No young person in their right mind would move to rural Ireland from a major city. Even on a decent wage, its just too boring

By international standards Ireland is a backwater, so why live here at all ?
3/4's of Ireland don't live in Dublin, and there are plenty of regional cities.
The mono city culture currently being fostered in Ireland benefits no one, including Dublin.

drumswan

gaius c wrote: »

Young people will go where there are jobs. That's why the new Glanbia facility near Castleblayney in Monaghan has a stack of CV's 2 metres high sent in cold by college-age youngsters desperate for a job, any job at all.

Im afraid you dont really grasp the kind of people Google et al. are looking for. They dont want unemployed Irish graduates and are not looking to retrain fizzy drinks plant technicians(!).

drumswan

ryan101 wrote: »

By international standards Ireland is a backwater, so why live here at all ?

Dublin is a European capital, offers a very high standard of living and ticks many of the boxes I listed for London. The wages and opportunities to progress are excellent and many of the competitors in the industries mentioned are here also, offering that security.

Thats just the way it is, regardless of the bitter handwringing from the country folk.

ryan101

drumswan wrote: »

Im afraid you dont really grasp the kind of people Google et al. are looking for. They dont want unemployed Irish graduates and are not looking to retrain fizzy drinks plant technicians(!).

If you think some google cubical jockey is somehow superior to a manufacturing plant technician you'd be sorely mistaken.

NIMAN

As much as I don't like seeing Dublin get all the jobs, it is a great city.

I would say it is very attractive for young people to head to to work, socialise, live etc (if the housing crisis is forgotten about for a minute).

ryan101

drumswan wrote: »

Dublin is a European capital, offers a very high standard of living and ticks many of the boxes I listed for London. The wages and opportunities to progress are excellent and many of the competitors in the industries mentioned are here also, offering that security.

Thats just the way it is, regardless of the bitter handwringing from the country folk.

There are so many baseless assumptions, prejudices and biases in that post it's not even worth responding to.

drumswan

ryan101 wrote: »

If you think some google cubical jockey is somehow superior to a manufacturing plant technician you'd be sorely mistaken.

Superior? We are talking about growth industries and their effects on property, not a philosophical discussion on who is 'superior' to whom. If our ecomony was built around making Coke in Ballina that would be great, but it isnt.

ryan101

NIMAN wrote: »

As much as I don't like seeing Dublin get all the jobs, it is a great city.

I would say it is very attractive for young people to head to to work, socialise, live etc (if the housing crisis is forgotten about for a minute).

What's so attractive about property prices, rents, cost of living and gridlock while living in some bland Dublin suburb ?

ThunbergsAreGo

ryan101 wrote: »

What's so attractive about property prices, rents, cost of living and gridlock while living in some bland Dublin suburb ?

Not picking out the post above (it was just the last) but can we not turn this discussion into an AH Dublin vs the Rest discussion? :pac:

ryan101

naughtb4 wrote: »

Not picking out the post above (it was just the last) but can we not turn this discussion into an AH Dublin vs the Rest discussion? :pac:

Instead of realising that the current mono city culture being fostered and promoted in Ireland is good neither for Dublin or the regional cities and is a backward step.

jmayo

drumswan wrote: »

Coca Cola manufacture fizzy drinks, why would they need to attract highly skilled people from mainland Europe?

The likes of Google have to SELL jobs to people who have the pick of high paid jobs anywhere on the continent. They cannot sell Ballina as a place to live to these people, there is nothing there.

London has world class arts & theatre, Michelin star restaurants, cult craft beer bars, world class shopping, amazing 24hr clubs with world class DJs, concerts with the worlds biggest and most famous bands and artists all through the week, arthouse cinema, world class sports entertainment, premiership and international football, the worlds best museums and galleries, real street food, cult pop up shops, the West End, Camden, Greenwich, Kew Gardens, Hyde Park, the list goes on and on and on.

Thats what Dublin is competing against. Ballina is not a draw for these companies, end of.

Hang on lets be realistic Dublin can't come within an asses roar of London in most of those things.
If you are using that yardstick then Paris or Amsterdam would be getting the likes of Google and not us.

Companies are not going to site themselves based on what cultural activities are available to their employees.

True a nice place to live in and a nice work location will help entice high value employees along with future career options, a nice fat salary, share options, etc.
But lets not kid ourselves that the goal for many of these corporations is also to find somewhere relatively cheapish with major favourable tax implications.
Lets be honest that is where we are winning the business.

gaius c

drumswan wrote: »

Im afraid you dont really grasp the kind of people Google et al. are looking for. They dont want unemployed Irish graduates and are not looking to retrain fizzy drinks plant technicians(!).

I am well aware of the mystique surrounding quite a lot of the mundane work being carried out in Dublin while the real innovation is elsewhere but we all agree it's nominally in Dublin for tax purposes.

It's obviously pointless trying to argue this with you but consider this, the engine of our economic growth in the first place was the pharma sector and that is based in the "backwater" of Cork harbour. Singapore, Puerto Rico and Cork were the largest global concentrations of pharma plants in the world until recent times.

This "Dublin is very very very important" logic falls apart very quickly when subjected to any sort of rigorous analysis.

You're also woefully ignorant of what actually goes on inside Ballina Beverages or even their innovation centre in Wexford. That's not a place you'll ever be allowed to bring a camera with you.
And unlike the IT MNC's, they can't just pick up and leave when the tax winds change.

jmayo

gaius c wrote: »

I am well aware of the mystique surrounding quite a lot of the mundane work being carried out in Dublin while the real innovation is elsewhere but we all agree it's nominally in Dublin for tax purposes.

It's obviously pointless trying to argue this with you but consider this, the engine of our economic growth in the first place was the pharma sector and that is based in the "backwater" of Cork harbour. Singapore, Puerto Rico and Cork were the largest global concentrations of pharma plants in the world until recent times.

This "Dublin is very very very important" logic falls apart very quickly when subjected to any sort of rigorous analysis.

You're also woefully ignorant of what actually goes on inside Ballina Beverages or even their innovation centre in Wexford. That's not a place you'll ever be allowed to bring a camera with you.
And unlike the IT MNC's, they can't just pick up and leave when the tax winds change.

Lets consider the initial major IT related multinationals that arrived on our shore.
One was Microsoft and the other was Intel.
They were two of the early adapters that further attracted the likes Facebook, Google, etc.

Intel sited their plant within the greater Dublin area so the argument about Dublin could be used.
But then one has to ask why did they site a plant in Costa Rica or am I missing it's cultural and culinary standing in the world ?

And if go back pre Microsoft you find major IT/tech multinationals that were sited all over the country.
Ericsson - Athlone.
Alcatel - Bandon.
NEC - Ballivor.
DEC - Galway.
Wang - Limerick.
Apple - Cork.


And even if they started out as manufacturing some of them ended up as development sites.

save_me_some

NIMAN wrote: »

As much as I don't like seeing Dublin get all the jobs, it is a great city.

I would say it is very attractive for young people to head to to work, socialise, live etc (if the housing crisis is forgotten about for a minute).

its the only show in town in this country but i wouldnt call it a great city by any stretch , wages are higher than in any other part of ireland and it will continue to dominate the economy but its very dirty and pretty ugly , its transport system is awful , i was in lisbon a few weeks ago , much poorer country than ireland yet their transport system is miles ahead , lisbon is far more beautiful than dublin

coolemon

A very relevant article here in relation to why Hi-Tech companies are choosing urban city locations: http://www.citylab.com/work/2013/09/why-todays-startups-are-choosing-urban-lofts-over-suburban-office-parks/6311/

"First and foremost is access to talent. More and more techies are choosing to live in denser, livelier, and less car-dependent urban locations."

ryan101

coolemon wrote: »

A very relevant article here in relation to why Hi-Tech companies are choosing urban city locations: http://www.citylab.com/work/2013/09/why-todays-startups-are-choosing-urban-lofts-over-suburban-office-parks/6311/

"First and foremost is access to talent. More and more techies are choosing to live in denser, livelier, and less car-dependent urban locations."

Then by that logic, the likes of Dublin should not have a look in compared to any city in the USA.

coolemon

ryan101 wrote: »

Then by that logic, the likes of Dublin should not have a look in compared to any city in the USA.

Yes but that's another question entirely. What is being talked about here is when a company wants to set up in Ireland, where and why do they choose the location they do.

Internationally is another kettle of fish.

NIMAN

save_me_some wrote: »

its the only show in town in this country but i wouldnt call it a great city by any stretch , wages are higher than in any other part of ireland and it will continue to dominate the economy but its very dirty and pretty ugly , its transport system is awful , i was in lisbon a few weeks ago , much poorer country than ireland yet their transport system is miles ahead , lisbon is far more beautiful than dublin

Sometimes we don't appreciate what we have perhaps? Or maybe you see it too often?

I only see Dublin once in a while, and I always found it a nice city. Expensive yes, but also nice. Maybe if I lived in it I would complain about the transport system etc, but I don't have to.

I am sure plenty of foreign visitors find Dublin nice too.

I have been to a lot of big European cities that are a lot less attractive, dirtier, less friendly etc.