Forum Feedback

Myrddin

Hi all

As per the title, we're running a feedback thread here in order to gauge opinion on the forum, how it can be improved, what's wrong with it, what can we change, how can we make it better - the usual feedback'y type stuff We'd appreciate any feedback you might have to offer, but please keep it constructive & civil

Cheers all
Myrddin

Seaneh

Hey, I reckon one thing that could help a lot would be a dedicated mod who comes fro inside the community (so that they are active) this way issues here wouldn't be as much of a drain on the Cmods like yourself and the mods in the FM/CM forum. I think this sub-forum is actually busier than the main forum and one of this might actually be one of the busier subforums in this section (could be way off here) so imho a mod might be both needed and beneficial for all involved?

Having someone here regularly will nip a lot of the nonsense that goes on in the bud.

KERSPLAT!

IMO it's pretty much fine the way it is. There are the occasional spats between posters but sure that's normal on any forum and I don't think things ever get too personal. I'd imagine a count of the reported posts would show very few from SM

The Governor

Seaneh wrote: »

Hey, I reckon one thing that could help a lot would be a dedicated mod who comes fro inside the community (so that they are active) this way issues here wouldn't be as much of a drain on the Cmods like yourself and the mods in the FM/CM forum. I think this sub-forum is actually busier than the main forum and one of this might actually be one of the busier subforums in this section (could be way off here) so imho a mod might be both needed and beneficial for all involved?

Having someone here regularly will nip a lot of the nonsense that goes on in the bud.

If a mod were to be introduced here, I'd actually prefer someone outside the forum.

A lot of posters here are friendly with some and not so friendly with others and frankly I would be concerned with the possibility that a mod selected from posters here may have trouble staying neutral at times.

A mod from outside the forum who hasn't had any interaction with any of the spats or gripes some have gotten into would be best as they would be able to remain objective in any future incidents IMO.

Just my 2c.

Seaneh

The Governor wrote: »

If a mod were to be introduced here, I'd actually prefer someone outside the forum.

A lot of posters here are friendly with some and not so friendly with others and frankly I would be concerned with the possibility that a mod selected from posters here may have trouble staying neutral at times.

Just my 2c.

I think a few people, like Willow and a few others, are well able to and have always stayed neutral on spats.

Having a dedicated mod only makes a difference if they regularly check the forum. Someone from outside the community won't bother checking here, the FM/SM mods are officially our mods and they never post here.

tupac_healy

Inside/outside..... One thing is for DAMN sure, this place needs a mod.

ctrl-alt-delete

I don't think it is crying out for a designated mod to be honest.

It seems people know where the report button is anyways so whatever needs sorting gets sorted, and sometimes stuff that doesn't need sorting.

A designated mod would be of benefit though, and someone who is a regular neutral poster (Seaneh highlighted 2 obvious candidates) here would be the better option.

It would allow us to get the charter edited when needed, for example with the most recent issue that cropped up.

bazarakus

Myrddin wrote: »

Hi all

As per the title, we're running a feedback thread here in order to gauge opinion on the forum, how it can be improved, what's wrong with it, what can we change, how can we make it better - the usual feedback'y type stuff We'd appreciate any feedback you might have to offer, but please keep it constructive & civil

Cheers all
Myrddin

Less moderation and dumb naziesque rules would be a start. A healthy sense of perspective in the grand scheme of tings would improve tings also. Finally a realization perhaps that it's just a website. Mods are not lawyers nor are they police. It's just a website.

It's just a website.

(just a website!)

Myrddin

bazarakus wrote: »

Less moderation and dumb naziesque rules would be a start. A healthy sense of perspective in the grand scheme of tings would improve tings also. Finally a realization perhaps that it's just a website. Mods are not lawyers nor are they police. It's just a website.

It's just a website.

(just a website!)

Thank you for that well thought out and thought provoking piece of feedback

Peanut Butter Jelly

I think a moderator is needed to a certain extent.

hufpc8w3adnk65

I would think a mod is needed and the charter updated slightly aswell. But deffo a mod whos one of us and knows the line between banter and insults!

Lord TSC

I'd kind of agree on the mod thing (I've mentioned it before) but don't think it's an absolute necessity.

I think sometimes there's topics which, as soon as they are starting, should be cut off or branched off, but that someone not interacting directly and regularly might not notice. The report function works grand in time but isn't necessarily the quickest.

But as I said, that's only a minor nitpick. The reality is because the forum is used by such a small number of posters and doesn't draw heat from other places, it isn't something that urgently needs attention. It's really the only thing that could be done to improve things, but other than that everything runs smoothly and brilliantly.

bazarakus

Myrddin wrote: »

Thank you for that well thought out and thought provoking piece of feedback

Don't mention it. Cool nickname by the way. What's it short for?

Wilberto

I'm not too convinced that this place is in dire need of a mod either, although from a general maintenance perspective I can certainly see why having a one would come be useful. Also, I suppose the odd time some spats do get a little out of hand and need to be "nipped in the bud" at an early opportunity.


Given that my name has been put forward, I would have no problem in assuming the role of a mod in this forum, that is if people wanted me to.


What would one's responsibilities be if one were to become a designated mod of a sub-forum?

tupac_healy

Wilberto wrote: »

I'm not too convinced that this place is in dire need of a mod either, although from a general maintenance perspective I can certainly see why having a one would come be useful. Also, I suppose the odd time some spats do get a little out of hand and need to be "nipped in the bud" at an early opportunity.


Given that my name has been put forward, I would have no problem in assuming the role of a mod in this forum, that is if people wanted me to.


What would one's responsibilities be if one were to become a designated mod of a sub-forum?

Perfect man for the job IMO

bazarakus

Really? I had no idea this groundswell of opinion would appear.

OK ... I reluctantly accept!

Peanut Butter Jelly

I wouldn't mind doing the moderation either. I have plenty of free time for atleast the next 4 months so I'll be pretty much available all the time. I love hate you all equally seeing as I haven't had any spats with people (that I can remember). But I completely understand if you want someone who'll be in the actual gameworld to be the moderator.

But you should note that I have a beard, and that you should always trust people with beards.

GT_TDI_150

Peanut Butter Jelly wrote: »

I wouldn't mind doing the moderation either. I have plenty of free time for atleast the next 4 months so I'll be pretty much available all the time. I love hate you all equally seeing as I haven't had any spats with people (that I can remember). But I completely understand if you want someone who'll be in the actual gameworld to be the moderator.

But you should note that I have a beard, and that you should always trust people with beards.

Perfect man for the job I reckon ...

Peanut Butter Jelly

GT_TDI_150 wrote: »

Perfect man for the job I reckon ...

Was it the beard or my free time that did it for you?



It was the beard, wasn't it

tupac_healy

Wilberto or PJB or both.....


Either way, both of those are well capable of doing the job for sure

Seaneh

Peanut Butter Jelly wrote: »

I wouldn't mind doing the moderation either. I have plenty of free time for atleast the next 4 months so I'll be pretty much available all the time. I love hate you all equally seeing as I haven't had any spats with people (that I can remember). But I completely understand if you want someone who'll be in the actual gameworld to be the moderator.

But you should note that I have a beard, and that you should always trust people with beards.

I actually don't think you'd make a good mod.
There is also a kind of unwritten rule on boards, if you nominate yourself as mod, you won't be a mod.

Peanut Butter Jelly

tupac_healy wrote: »

Wilberto or PJB or both.....


Either way, both of those are well capable of doing the job for sure

Myrddin

Just to be clear guys, nobodies name has been 'put forward' other than what has been said in this thread. Mods are chosen based on their record in a forum, their overall record on the site, their contributions to a forum/the site, etc. It's not something chosen on a whim, & not something decided by votes etc. Again, just so we're clear I'm reading all the feedback anyway, & will definitely look at the merits of having a dedicated mod(s) around.

A few of you have mentioned the charter & updating the charter, what type of things do you wish to see changed/added/amended in the charter?

bazarakus

Myrddin wrote: »

Just to be clear guys, nobodies name has been 'put forward' other than what has been said in this thread. Mods are chosen based on their record in a forum, their overall record on the site, their contributions to a forum/the site, etc. It's not something chosen on a whim, & not something decided by votes etc. Again, just so we're clear I'm reading all the feedback anyway, & will definitely look at the merits of having a dedicated mod(s) around.

A few of you have mentioned the charter & updating the charter, what type of things do you wish to see changed/added/amended in the charter?

Where is the charter?

Myrddin

bazarakus wrote: »

Where is the charter?

Charter here - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057144941

bazarakus

Myrddin wrote: »

Charter here - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057144941

This point is senseless:

"A Mod decision is final, if you disagree with an infraction or ban feel free to take it to the pm level. If your still not happy, there is a Dispute Resolution Procedure you can follow. Don't argue with a mod on thread."

Why would one person's decision be final? If that's the case then there is no point in anything. If you can be arbitrarily banned because of the opinion/whim of a mod then what is the point in arguing a final decision? The decision is final but you can disagree? This does not make sense.

Lord TSC

I think that's a pretty standard line across the entire site Baz. Publicly, the mods make a decision and that's the end of public discussion. After that, you can try and change the mind of the mod privately (meaning you don't drag the topics away from what they should be about) and there's a section to deal with it publicly but again away from the main topic, stopping disruption.

It also strikes me that line of thinking isn't actually a piece of feedback for the SM forum but rather the site in general; that if you have a problem with the ToS of boards.ie, then there's other subsections to discuss it, rather than trying to bring it up in a thread which should be about feedback of this sub-section of the site specifically.

On that note...is it me or is the thread title of the charter weird? For me, it's "Charter - Read th"...is it meant to be "Charter - Read this before posting"?

bazarakus

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

I think that's a pretty standard line across the entire site Baz. Publicly, the mods make a decision and that's the end of public discussion. After that, you can try and change the mind of the mod privately (meaning you don't drag the topics away from what they should be about) and there's a section to deal with it publicly but again away from the main topic, stopping disruption.

It also strikes me that line of thinking isn't actually a piece of feedback for the SM forum but rather the site in general; that if you have a problem with the ToS of boards.ie, then there's other subsections to discuss it, rather than trying to bring it up in a thread which should be about feedback of this sub-section of the site specifically.

On that note...is it me or is the thread title of the charter weird? For me, it's "Charter - Read th"...is it meant to be "Charter - Read this before posting"?

Mate if you're asking for feedback then someone gives feedback and you say "that's not feedback" then you're not gonna get much feedback. All feedback is good feedback. In the real world anyway and while THIS IS A PRIVATELY OWNED WEBSITE AND THERE IS NO FREE SPEECH we are all human beings who speak English and live on planet earth so some of the basic tenets of business and indeed must apply, no?

hufpc8w3adnk65

The charter was made by myself and 3/4 other members just throwing ideas around via PM's and that was what we came up with and then asked for it too be stickied.

Lord TSC

bazarakus wrote: »

Mate if you're asking for feedback then someone gives feedback and you say "that's not feedback" then you're not gonna get much feedback. All feedback is good feedback. In the real world anyway and while THIS IS A PRIVATELY OWNED WEBSITE AND THERE IS NO FREE SPEECH we are all human beings who speak English and live on planet earth so some of the basic tenets of business and indeed must apply, no?

I am not saying not to give feedback, but for example, what would you suggest is the alternative with regards how mods are making decisions? Be constructive and offer an alternative. What would you rather that line be (in a realistic way)?

bazarakus

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

I am not saying not to give feedback, but for example, what would you suggest is the alternative with regards how mods are making decisions? Be constructive and offer an alternative. What would you rather that line be (in a realistic way)?

That's for the authors fo the charter and the forum owner's representatives (mods) to decide. Asking me for feedback is one thing, asking me to rewrite stuff is entirely someting different. I don't know. It's my feedback, it's not a unilateral demand for change by me. The site will prevail, I'm just responding to requests for feedback, not jumping on anyone's back and elbowing them in the ear.

Myrddin

bazarakus wrote: »

This point is senseless:

"A Mod decision is final, if you disagree with an infraction or ban feel free to take it to the pm level. If your still not happy, there is a Dispute Resolution Procedure you can follow. Don't argue with a mod on thread."

Why would one person's decision be final? If that's the case then there is no point in anything. If you can be arbitrarily banned because of the opinion/whim of a mod then what is the point in arguing a final decision? The decision is final but you can disagree? This does not make sense.

The jist of this is that if a user has been actioned by a mod (be it a warning/infraction/ban), then if they have reason to want to discuss/dispute it...they're asked to please take that to the pm level...purely for the sake of the other users of the thread (so they don't have to trawl through off topic posts). If, after discussing it with the mod & the mod is standing by their decision, the user then has another route to go if they wish...the DRP. In the DRP forum, they can have the warning/infraction/ban reviewed by a Cmod to see if said action was warranted. If the Cmod stands over the action, then the user can take even further again, & have an Admin review the action.

So there's plenty of scope to have any decision looked at & reviewed. Again the reason it's asked to be dealt with off forum, is for the sake of the other users not having to read through it. The wording of that part in the charter could definitely be made clearer, so by all means, thanks for bringing it up

Al Capwned

An issue with moderation of this forum would surely be that there are two sets of rules in play. The boards.ie rules and the rules of the game itself.

Any prospective moderator couldn't have the power to enforce the rules of the game - only ensuring that all posters adhere to the charter.

The big recent issue on the Manager Waiting List thread was whether or not a manager should be made quit his current club as soon as he's awarded the new job. There obviously is no rule on SoccerManager.com pertaining to this, but the way the thread went in that period could surely have been helped by good moderation.

Also on that, it needs to be someone from INSIDE the SM forum, as it would be practically impossible for an 'outsider' to comprehend the boards-specific soccer manager rules.

/2c

Myrddin

Al Capwned wrote: »

Any prospective moderator couldn't have the power to enforce the rules of the game - only ensuring that all posters adhere to the charter.

The big recent issue on the Manager Waiting List thread was whether or not a manager should be made quit his current club as soon as he's awarded the new job. There obviously is no rule on SoccerManager.com pertaining to this, but the way the thread went in that period could surely have been helped by good moderation.

How are rule changes handled at the mo? Do users discuss proposals & the majority decide etc?

GT_TDI_150

Myrddin wrote: »

How are rule changes handled at the mo? Do users discuss proposals & the majority decide etc?

it depends because there is about 4-5 different games at play here and they are completely seperate entities ...

for the boards.ie league there tehd to be votes and the games owner applies the changeds to the game at the turn of the season

hufpc8w3adnk65

Myrddin wrote: »

How are rule changes handled at the mo? Do users discuss proposals & the majority decide etc?

In the boards.ie league I ask for opinions from every player via the thread and if needed we have a poll. I may have paid for it but the game would be very lonely If I was the only one playing so it's everyone's game as much as mine. So far everything has worked out by majority vote.

Al Capwned

GT_TDI_150 wrote: »

it depends because there is about 4-5 different games at play here and they are completely seperate entities ...

for the boards.ie league there tehd to be votes and the games owner applies the changeds to the game at the turn of the season

This is the precise reason that any prospective moderator will only be able to enforce the boards.ie rules, and will have no say in any action that is taken on soccermanager.com.

Even MrMac84, as the boards.ie gameworld owner, has no powers to enforce any rules on SM. Any issues a player has can only be taken up with the SMFA - the website owners/game developers, what ever you want to call them
They have their own appeals/complaints system, flawed as it is.
__

That said, it has been evident on many occasions that pressure from our 'thread-mates' has been sufficient to ensure that no rules are being blatantly flouted.

hufpc8w3adnk65

Al Capwned wrote: »

This is the precise reason that any prospective moderator will only be able to enforce the boards.ie rules, and will have no say in any action that is taken on soccermanager.com.

Even MrMac84, as the boards.ie gameworld owner, has no powers to enforce any rules on SM. Any issues a player has can only be taken up with the SMFA - the website owners/game developers, what ever you want to call them
They have their own appeals/complaints system, flawed as it is.
__

That said, it has been evident on many occasions that pressure from our 'thread-mates' has been sufficient to ensure that no rules are being blatantly flouted.

Couldn't have said better my self.

Myrddin

Al Capwned wrote: »

This is the precise reason that any prospective moderator will only be able to enforce the boards.ie rules, and will have no say in any action that is taken on soccermanager.com.

Even MrMac84, as the boards.ie gameworld owner, has no powers to enforce any rules on SM. Any issues a player has can only be taken up with the SMFA - the website owners/game developers, what ever you want to call them
They have their own appeals/complaints system, flawed as it is.
__

That said, it has been evident on many occasions that pressure from our 'thread-mates' has been sufficient to ensure that no rules are being blatantly flouted.

Enforcing rules on third party sites though is something outside the remit of ANY boards.ie mod though, it wouldn't be limited to this forum. I assume SM has it's own way of investigating & dealing with those who break the SM rules? A mod here would be tasked with ensuring everyone remain civil to each other, & for things to be as constructive as possible between the users for the better of everyone...can the two not co-exist?

Al Capwned

Myrddin wrote: »

Enforcing rules on third party sites though is something outside the remit of ANY boards.ie mod though, it wouldn't be limited to this forum. I assume SM has it's own way of investigating & dealing with those who break the SM rules? A mod here would be tasked with ensuring everyone remain civil to each other, & for things to be as constructive as possible between the users for the better of everyone...can the two not co-exist?

SM has it's own rulebook yes, and we've all seen it work in some shape or form I'd imagine.

And of course a boards mod could (and should) be able to do this - that would be the primary responsibility of any mod, would it not..

I do feel that there is very little that an SM-mod would have to do - there are subtle little digs at other posters on occasion, as well as a couple of times that the abuse rule has definitely been broken. I'd imagine that the mere presence of a Soccer Manager mod would help with these, and that very little actual moderation would have to be done, if you get me. A gentle reminder of the rules before something gets out of hand is more often than not a better option than coming down hard on someone.

The forum does work quite well even without a designated mod, but I'd welcome one if it stopped the albeit very occasional spats.

hufpc8w3adnk65

Al Capwned wrote: »

SM has it's own rulebook yes, and we've all seen it work in some shape or form I'd imagine.

And of course a boards mod could (and should) be able to do this - that would be the primary responsibility of any mod, would it not..

I do feel that there is very little that an SM-mod would have to do - there are subtle little digs at other posters on occasion, as well as a couple of times that the abuse rule has definitely been broken. I'd imagine that the mere presence of a Soccer Manager mod would help with these, and that very little actual moderation would have to be done, if you get me. A gentle reminder of the rules before something gets out of hand is more often than not a better option than coming down hard on someone.

The forum does work quite well even without a designated mod, but I'd welcome one if it stopped the albeit very occasional spats.

Pretty much how I feel aswell. It needs too be 1 of us and someone who has been around long enough too know when it's banter and when it's sly digs!

Seaneh

It also needs to be someone level headed enough to know when to just use the mod voice and give a general warning and when to give infractions/bans, and who wouldn't use their position as mod to favour their mates in the threads.

Al Capwned

With any thread that has only what, maybe 35/40 active posters (at a pure guess) there are going to be friendships or cliques formed on one side of the coin. But there will invariably be arguments and disagreements between posters. I agree with Seaneh :eek:

Also, I second what Mac said that it does need to be someone that has been around for a while, as there are distinct personalities within the forum whose posts an 'outside' mod may misinterpret.

tupac_healy

MrMac84 wrote: »

Pretty much how I feel aswell. It needs too be 1 of us and someone who has been around long enough too know when it's banter and when it's sly digs!

Would it not make total and utter sense and I feel it would be universally accepted if it were Mac....

In fairness he is the GW owner, and if it was to be someone within the GW camp, surely it should be himself?

I've not chatted with Mac so I don't know if you would even be interested but none the less, surely this would be acceptable to everyone involved?

Seaneh

tupac_healy wrote: »

Would it not make total and utter sense and I feel it would be universally accepted if it were Mac....

In fairness he is the GW owner, and if it was to be someone within the GW camp, surely it should be himself?

I've not chatted with Mac so I don't know if you would even be interested but none the less, surely this would be acceptable to everyone involved?

I don't think Mac would make a good mod, because I don't think he'd be bothered enough to enforce rules, you'd be as well off not having a mod. I also think his fondness for some posters would bias him.
No offence meant mac, you're a good egg, just think you've enough to be doing running a league never mind a forum with several leagues.

Myrddin

There's no point in nominating potential mods guys, that's not how it works. All the feedback so far has been helpful, & has given plenty to think about

hufpc8w3adnk65

Seaneh wrote: »

I don't think Mac would make a good mod, because I don't think he'd be bothered enough to enforce rules, you'd be as well off not having a mod. I also think his fondness for some posters would bias him.
No offence meant mac, you're a good egg, just think you've enough to be doing running a league never mind a forum with several leagues.

Just cuz I don't post doesn't mean I'm not here reading in the background!

Seaneh

MrMac84 wrote: »

Just cuz I don't post doesn't mean I'm not here reading in the background!

Fair enough, like I said, no offence meant to yourself, you're a good egg.

The Internet

I have to say that bazarakus would make a great mod

Myrddin

Would there be any objections to moving this forum out from under Football & Championship Manager, to become its own full forum (no longer a subforum hidden behind additional clicks)? It would be placed out beside Football & Championship Manager, rather than under it, so would increase exposure to new users etc

KERSPLAT!

Myrddin wrote: »

Would there be any objections to moving this forum out from under Football & Championship Manager, to become its own full forum (no longer a subforum hidden behind additional clicks)? It would be placed out beside Football & Championship Manager, rather than under it, so would increase exposure to new users etc

Great idea, always looking for new managers with more and more GWs opening up