60% of parents opposed to Teacher Assessment JC

MrJones1973

This was in Print edition of Irish Indo, I was unable to get it online. I have a hard copy! It was on front page yesterday. I think its significant. National Parents council is in favour but they are really the Minster's poodle Look at where they are located.They also get a ton of dosh from Mr Quinn. totally undermines argument that all Education partners bar unions are on board. Good news. It was a proper poll.
Anyway-I have ASTI CEC this weekend. Will keep people up to date.

Boober Fraggle

I'm shocked it's only 60%, I would like to hear what the other responses were. I don't know of any of our parents who are in favour. At PTMs this year I had a mix of opposed and clueless.

MrJones1973

I thought this would attract attention. Perhaps Jc is fait accompli ?

happywithlife

I saw the headline but didn't get the paper and without a link can't comment on the article
What I will say though is that I'm not surprised it's only 60% - actually it's a bit higher than I thought it would be. Because most parents I know -excluding those in education - haven't the foggiest idea of what the changes mean. Even those parents with kids going into first year and due to start the new English course. It's bloody scary and I think the parents council really need to start a huge campaign of awareness on this.

acequion

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

I thought this would attract attention. Perhaps Jc is fait accompli ?

Oh I don't think it's a fait accompli at all MrWhite1970 and I agree that the poll result of 60% against is good news.

It's the end of the year,teachers are all up to their eyes and with the industrial action effectively shutting out Quinn's farcical JCSA,I'd say most of us have switched off from it.

But the fight against it is still very much on as far as I'm concerned and I certainly hope that this is one fight we'll all stick with.

Mr Pseudonym

Given that a questionable survey was cited as showing a majority of parents is opposed to the JCSA, allow me to link to an equally questionable story: Students back junior cycle reforms but fear 'bias' | Irish Times

endakenny

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

Given that a questionable survey was cited as showing a majority of parents is opposed to the JCSA, allow me to link to an equally questionable story: Students back junior cycle reforms but fear 'bias' | Irish Times

The following is from that article:


Robert O’Donnell (17), deputy president of the Irish Second-Level Students’ Union, said teacher bias was a real risk but it shouldn’t be used as a reason to block the reforms.
“If a teacher doesn’t like a student, well that’s tough, they still have to give them a comment and explain why they didn’t achieve or get the merit,” he said.

How could a teacher dislike a student who does well at the subject that the teacher teaches that student?

Mr Pseudonym

endakenny wrote: »

The following is from that article:


Robert O’Donnell (17), deputy president of the Irish Second-Level Students’ Union, said teacher bias was a real risk but it shouldn’t be used as a reason to block the reforms.
“If a teacher doesn’t like a student, well that’s tough, they still have to give them a comment and explain why they didn’t achieve or get the merit,” he said.

How could a teacher dislike a student who does well at the subject that the teacher teaches that student?

A friend of mine from school was the most intelligent person I've ever known: 600 points; Maths and Physics Olympiad; top-of-class at Trinity; etc. However, here were several teachers who found his arrogance very frustrating.

O'Donnell's point was that a dislike of a student won't necessarily lead to bias. I agree with that.


The following is a quote from Tuesday's Indo; I can get my hands on Monday's edition (the one mentioned in the OP) tomorrow, when I will comment on the validity of the results:

"Education Minister Ruairi Quinn has offered an olive branch to teachers after a poll showing parents have major concerns about his Junior Cert reform plans. The minister adopted a conciliatory stance on his reforms after an Irish Independent poll showed parents were overwhelmingly siding with teachers against Junior Cert reforms. A total of sixty percent of those polled said teachers should not assess their own pupils in the Junior Cert through continuous assessment of school-based exams and projects"

spurious

Children tend to think they are more important in their teachers' lives than they actually are.

vamos!

Personally I think I would be at risk of being biased towards the weaker students who work hard. It would be difficult to fail a student who struggles but is pleasant, hard-working and genuinely does their best but just is not capable of achieving the standard.

I am completely against marking my own students' work and would hate to see this introduced. If, however, this was to happen in the future, I would prefer for there to be some kind of standardised marking scheme predetermined by a body such as the SEC. That would guarantee standards and remove some of the pressure not to be biased.

I can't imagine very many overworked teachers bothering to downgrade students they don't like. It just wouldn't be worth the hassle, not to mention being completely unprofessional. I can see a future system where students accuse teachers of being biased because they can't understand or accept their limitations and ability- or that they may not have done their best. Quite a few Mummy and Daddys will suddenly become experts in all JCert fields when they call to complain about Johnny getting a B when it was totally and A standard piece.

evolving_doors

Id like to see the full interview with the students council president first. A bit suspect that one quote is plucked to represent the opinion of 'all students'... What questions were asked?

It reminds me of the comment that was played on rte from the TY student who said they couldn't remember anything they did for the JC (hence why the new JC was needed). Ill bet that student won't be long using the built upon knowledge once they get to LC ..or else theyll have to go back to 1st year to learn what perimeter and area are.

Pinch of salt...

spurious

It sounds like they grabbed two kids attending the thing in Trinity and asked them what they thought.
A sound basis for the headline.

Mr Pseudonym

I think this is the article mentioned in the OP: Parents side with teachers against Junior Cert reform | Irish Independent.

Little information about the poll was given, but it was conducted by Millward Brown. It's unclear whether those polled were solely parents, as the article makes reference to 18-24 y/o's being the most opposed. While it's not good from Quinn's perspective if there were strong opposition from parents, I don't think the poll-finding (assuming it is accurate) can be inferred as a reflection of the merits or otherwise of the reform-proposal.

acequion

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

While it's not good from Quinn's perspective if there were strong opposition from parents, I don't think the poll-finding (assuming it is accurate) can be inferred as a reflection of the merits or otherwise of the reform-proposal.

I think it can and by asserting that it can't,you underestimate those polled. The poll was carried out among those most affected by this "reform proposal", the parents of the children who will do it.Presumably they did their homework on such a crucial issue and realised the demerits of the core idea; school based assessment replacing a national certificate.

Mr Pseudonym

acequion wrote: »

I think it can and by asserting that it can't,you underestimate those polled. The poll was carried out among those most affected by this "reform proposal", the parents of the children who will do it.Presumably they did their homework on such a crucial issue and realised the demerits of the core idea; school based assessment replacing a national certificate.

I think you over-estimate them. Your presumption is not sensible. All they will have read - if they have read - is reportage of the tensions between the DoE anf teachers.

rainbowtrout

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

I think you over-estimate them. Your presumption is not sensible. All they will have read - if they have read - is reportage of the tensions between the DoE anf teachers.

People aren't stupid. We have a very fair and transparent system as it is. It might have it's flaws in terms of points being the only way of getting into college but it removes influences and getting in because you know someone. You can guarantee that your exams have been fairly graded because the person correcting them does not know who you are.

Ireland is a very small country. Everyone knows everyone. Teachers will get a lot of hassle from parents of the type 'You'll give my Johnny a good grade now won't you' or perhaps in a fee paying school 'I pay 10k a year to send my child here, why is she not getting the grades' It's already been mentioned by teachers that bias may come into it - intentional or otherwise. Do you fail the student who is weak but turns up to school everyday, gives it their best but is simply not able, or do you let them pass with 40%? Some teachers would be inclined to give them the 40. It will happen.

For you to write off this survey really says that you think parents aren't clever enough to make up their minds on how they want their children assessed in the education system and that's quite insulting to parents all over the country. I've had parents speak to me about it at parent teacher meetings. They are aware of what is going on. I've had some of my students speak about it and even they can see while they are still in school the merit of anonymity within the assessment system.

acequion

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

I think you over-estimate them. Your presumption is not sensible. All they will have read - if they have read - is reportage of the tensions between the DoE anf teachers.

Sorry but that's rubbish! First off,with the negative attitude towards teachers nowadays,the less informed parent will automatically side against the teacher. And that,I presume,was the fairly sizeable 40%

But to imply that the 60% who voted to side with teachers or against teacher assessment of their own pupils,however we might put it,didn't inform themselves of the issues, is very dismissive of the intelligence and education levels of the many parents out there.

There is plenty of material available about this new JCSA and any intelligent individual is capable of seeing through the spin to the reality of what it actually is. A cost cutting measure which has been tried out and which has failed in other English speaking countries.

Mr Pseudonym

acequion wrote: »

Sorry but that's rubbish!

A tremendous way to start a defence!

First off,with the negative attitude towards teachers nowadays,the less informed parent will automatically side against the teacher. And that,I presume,was the fairly sizeable 40%.

I don't think that is a reasonable assumption. I am probably more informed than anyone who has contributed to this forum: I'm writing a statistics dissertation which deals with education and have read almost all sources I could find. That does not make my opinion right, but it disproves your suggestion that one who is informed will necessarily oppose reform!

But to imply that the 60% who voted to side with teachers or against teacher assessment of their own pupils,however we might put it,didn't inform themselves of the issues, is very dismissive of the intelligence and education levels of the many parents out there.

There is plenty of material available about this new JCSA and any intelligent individual is capable of seeing through the spin to the reality of what it actually is. A cost cutting measure which has been tried out and which has failed in other English speaking countries.

You hide your bias well! A tiny minority of parents will have read more than what has been published in newspapers. Those that have read the measly coverage (still, I would imagine, a minority) are not in a position to judge the merits of the proposal, IMO.

If you reply, please do so without hostility.

acequion

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

If you reply, please do so without hostility.

Practice what you preach,Mr Pseudonym! You appear to be more interested in proving yourself to be right and quite frankly, your superior tone grates. I have no idea what statistics you have to "disprove" my suggestion,nor am I interested. The fact is that 60% of parents polled are opposed to the JCSA. While you seem to think you are the most informed, unless you are a practising second level teacher,or the parent of second level children, I would doubt it.

I also don't know what bias I'm supposed to be hiding. I'm not hiding anything. I am totally opposed to the JCSA for the many reasons that have already been fully articulated by teachers.

I'm not interested in sparring with you. If you have nothing else to do but dissect people's posts picking holes,off you go. And if you must have the last word, be my guest. I'm simply saying that I completely disagree with your opinion.

rainbowtrout

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

A tremendous way to start a defence!




I don't think that is a reasonable assumption. I am probably more informed than anyone who has contributed to this forum: I'm writing a statistics dissertation which deals with education and have read almost all sources I could find. That does not make my opinion right, but it disproves your suggestion that one who is informed will necessarily oppose reform!




You hide your bias well! A tiny minority of parents will have read more than what has been published in newspapers. Those that have read the measly coverage (still, I would imagine, a minority) are not in a position to judge the merits of the proposal, IMO.

If you reply, please do so without hostility.

No, you're not more informed. You are an undergraduate who has a read a bunch of statistical reports. Reports which do not tell of the everyday experience of teachers and students. Reports which do not detail what happens when parents come in for a talk in the evening about the new Junior Cert syllabus. Reports which do not outline parents worries which are relayed to you at a parent teacher meeting. Reports which do not detail the difficulties which may arise when correcting the state examinations. All of which are plainly obvious to teachers who are working in classrooms up and down the country each day.

Reading a bunch of reports does not make you more informed than the people on this forum who are actually teaching or more informed than the teachers in the 700 or so second level schools in this country. I don't need a statistics report to prove or disprove what I see with my own two eyes when I go out to schools to examine students and see what their teachers have or have not been doing.

For someone who has never taught and has expressed an interest in going into teaching you seem to think you know better than absolutely everyone involved in the education system, all of whom have way more experience and none of it attached to the contents of a statistical report.

To be honest if you do go teaching you are going to get a massive land when you are faced with the realities of everyday life in the classroom.

evolving_doors

Mod warning...

ok folks, keep it impersonal a little bit. This debate is good although we are trying to know the 'mind' of 60%. I don't think it is such a Homogenous group so we should debate all conjecture to some extent.


Don't reply to this warning.

MrJones1973

Statistics can be spun. It was a catchy headline. Parents I think naturally prefer independent assessment-who wouldnt? Some parents by saying they prefer Teacher assessment were probably trying to avoid being negative about teachers. Its a complex analysis. Anyway-the bottom line is it rubbishes the National parents council who supported the JC. A body largely funded by the state-and located down the road from the Department,

Mr Pseudonym

I ask that the poster rainbowtrout stop giving information about me which I gave on another thread in another forum - and which is not necessarily true - in an attempt to discredit my position.

I have read far more than "a bunch of statistical reports" (alas, there is very little research done in this country on our education system): as well as having read many other sources, I skim the ASTI magazine (the best way to read it, I find).

Given that I'm an especially diligent student, and most contributors to this forum are "over-worked" teachers, it seems pretty reasonable to assume that I have read more widely on the subject than almost anyone else. I see the point regarding the benefit of hands-on experience, but think it's over-stated. However, if it is reasonable to think that a well-read student cannot judge the complexities of teaching, in the context of reforming the pedagogy, I don't see how one could contend that largely ill-informed parents can come to a reliable conclusion.

spurious

Reading about something is not the same as doing it.

rainbowtrout

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

I ask that the poster rainbowtrout stop giving information about me which I gave on another thread in another forum - and which is not necessarily true - in an attempt to discredit my position.

I have read far more than "a bunch of statistical reports" (alas, there is very little research done in this country on our education system): as well as having read many other sources, I skim the ASTI magazine (the best way to read it, I find).

Given that I'm an especially diligent student, and most contributors to this forum are "over-worked" teachers, it seems pretty reasonable to assume that I have read more widely on the subject than almost anyone else. I see the point regarding the benefit of hands-on experience, but think it's over-stated. However, if it is reasonable to think that a well-read student cannot judge the complexities of teaching, in the context of reforming the pedagogy, I don't see how one could contend that largely ill-informed parents can come to a reliable conclusion.

If you post information about yourself on boards, which is in the public domain then it is fair game.

The teachers who are on here are diligent teachers, which is why they are debating educational issues in their spare time. You cannot come to the conclusion that you are more widely read than the teachers on here, just because you think you are.

You are also sadly mistaken if you think parents are largely ill informed. Spend a day in the office of any school and you will find that parents are very well informed about their son/daughter's rights regarding their education and that spills over into assessment.


In terms of hand-on experience, I ask you to consider a recurring topic on boards from NQTs which is discipline. From my lectures in college and from my reading in college as far as us teacher training students were concerned all you had to do to maintain discipline in a classroom was keep the students occupied and the rest would fall into place and the classroom would be a harmonious learning environment. The hands-on experience tells me that the theory is over rated and that best laid plans don't always work out as you thought they would.

Mr Pseudonym

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

I think this is the article mentioned in the OP: Parents side with teachers against Junior Cert reform | Irish Independent.

I've just seen the Indo of 19/5. Given that there was a Millward Brown poll published on the same day showing party support, it seems likely that the questuon - Sould teachers assess their own pupils? - was asked as part of that. For the record, eleven percent answered "don't know" or "it depends". The whole argument about how well-informed parents are regarding the reforms is irrelevant now.

rainbowtrout

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

I've just seen the Indo of 19/5. Given that there was a Millward Brown poll published on the same day showing party support, it seems likely that the questuon - Sould teachers assess their own pupils? - was asked as part of that. For the record, eleven percent answered "don't know" or "it depends". The whole argument about how well-informed parents are regarding the reforms is irrelevant now.

For someone doing a dissertation on statistics you should know that you just can't draw that type of inference. The results of two questions that were polled were published on the same day. That doesn't automatically infer that they were part of the same poll.

Mr Pseudonym

rainbowtrout wrote: »

For someone doing a dissertation on statistics you should know that you just can't draw that type of inference. The results of two questions that were polled were published on the same day. That doesn't automatically infer that they were part of the same poll.

First, you've fallen into the old infer/imply trap. Second, I said it "seems likely" - with a good knowledge of how polling works, I stand by that.

titchy

I can't imagine very many overworked teachers bothering to downgrade students they don't like. It just wouldn't be worth the hassle, not to mention being unprofessional

I couldn't disagree with This statement more.

I know a teacher who went out of their way to give a child a bad report.
A child who had never before, and never sense got a bad report.
Granted one teacher out if thousands, but still one teacher.

To be clear I don't think teachers get nearly enough pay, credit etc for the job they do!
I think the majority of teachers go above and beyond the call of duty every day.

I think this system will place teachers in a vulnerable position with some parents, and I think that it would be equally unfair on students and teachers alike to implement this system.

But to say no teacher would mark down a student is untrue.

I would not blame the teachers if they decide to take industrial action over this.
I would fully support them.

Mr Pseudonym

titchy wrote: »

I can't imagine very many overworked teachers bothering to downgrade students they don't like. It just wouldn't be worth the hassle, not to mention being unprofessional

I couldn't disagree with This statement more.

I know a teacher who went out of their way to give a child a bad report.
A child who had never before, and never sense got a bad report.
Granted one teacher out if thousands, but still one teacher.

To be clear I don't think teachers get nearly enough pay, credit etc for the job they do!
I think the majority of teachers go above and beyond the call of duty every day.

I think this system will place teachers in a vulnerable position with some parents, and I think that it would be equally unfair on students and teachers alike to implement this system.

But to say no teacher would mark down a student is untrue.

I would not blame the teachers if they decide to take industrial action over this.
I would fully support them.

This argument has been had already, but...

Given how wide the grade-boundaries are, it's almost inconceivable that a student could be incorrectly marked-down two grades. So, it's whether a student gets A or B, B or C, C or D, etc. As you suggested, it's unlikely to be common, so a student is unlikely to be a victim in several subjects. It's also the junior cycle - the point after which an ever-decreasing number (less than 10% when last analysed) of students drops out, and is therefore of little relevance (the value of what is likely to be a mediocre set of grades for the average JC drop-out is also questionable).

Lastly, though there are some external quality-assessment mechanisms at third-level, the majority of scripts will only be corrected by lecturers and apathetic PhDs. Why is it not a problem in that case?

evolving_doors

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

This argument has been had already, but...

Given how wide the grade-boundaries are, it's almost inconceivable that a student could be incorrectly marked-down two grades. So, it's whether a student gets A or B, B or C, C or D, etc. As you suggested, it's unlikely to be common, so a student is unlikely to be a victim in several subjects. It's also the junior cycle - the point after which an ever-decreasing number (less than 10% when last analysed) of students drops out, and is therefore of little relevance (the value of what is likely to be a mediocre set of grades for the average JC drop-out is also questionable).

Lastly, though there are some external quality-assessment mechanisms at third-level, the majority of scripts will only be corrected by lecturers and apathetic PhDs. Why is it not a problem in that case?

It may be 'allmost inconceivable' but not impossible.
Consider someone who is borderline grade. its not that difficult to go through certain subjects and do a little shaving or adding for each question..a few points here and there can easily push a C to an A in no time. Is there any motivation for an anonymous marker to do this.. balanced against the possible motivations on a student's teacher.

Of course it is incumbent on each student to go through their script and double check, so you could be caught out. But, as we well know, many will accept it and carry on. Conversely, I could well imagine certain students (and parents) who would stand at your door and berate and argue over every single answer...Then consider said influential parent knocking on the principal's door.

The substantive issue, I think, would be the pressure on teachers to mark UP as opposed to down. (You should have come across the grade inflation debate in Irish universities too, so for your last sentence, it is indeed a big problem).

Also as has been mentioned before, there is the pressure on the teacher to fit their own class on a micro level to the grade curve on a macro level, just to keep their job.

All of the above has transpired in the Uk...'allmost inconcieveable' but not impossible.

rainbowtrout

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

This argument has been had already, but...

Given how wide the grade-boundaries are, it's almost inconceivable that a student could be incorrectly marked-down two grades. So, it's whether a student gets A or B, B or C, C or D, etc. As you suggested, it's unlikely to be common, so a student is unlikely to be a victim in several subjects. It's also the junior cycle - the point after which an ever-decreasing number (less than 10% when last analysed) of students drops out, and is therefore of little relevance (the value of what is likely to be a mediocre set of grades for the average JC drop-out is also questionable).

Lastly, though there are some external quality-assessment mechanisms at third-level, the majority of scripts will only be corrected by lecturers and apathetic PhDs. Why is it not a problem in that case?

It does happen. Examiners are human and do make mistakes, everything from addition mistakes, to missing a question or part of a question in correction to only adding in 5 questions instead of 6 etc.

On top of that the subjects and levels students get to do in 5th year is often determined by the grades they get in Junior Cert, particularly in core subjects.

Mr Pseudonym

Armelodie wrote: »

It may be 'almost inconceivable' but not impossible.
Consider someone who is borderline grade. its not that difficult to go through certain subjects and do a little shaving or adding for each question..a few points here and there can easily push a C to an A in no time. Is there any motivation for an anonymous marker to do this.. balanced against the possible motivations on a student's teacher.

Of course it is incumbent on each student to go through their script and double check, so you could be caught out. But, as we well know, many will accept it and carry on. Conversely, I could well imagine certain students (and parents) who would stand at your door and berate and argue over every single answer...Then consider said influential parent knocking on the principal's door.

The substantive issue, I think, would be the pressure on teachers to mark UP as opposed to down. (You should have come across the grade inflation debate in Irish universities too, so for your last sentence, it is indeed a big problem).

Also as has been mentioned before, there is the pressure on the teacher to fit their own class on a micro level to the grade curve on a macro level, just to keep their job.

All of the above has transpired in the Uk...'almost inconceiveable' but not impossible.

I don't really know what to say. The situation you mention of a teacher systematically reducing a student's grade is, to me, "almost inconceivable".

Even if it happens in a tiny minority of cases, though, is that a reason to stop improvement to the curriculum for all?

Grade inflation at third level? If you want a serial-culprit, look to the "objectively-marked" LC: the proportion of students nationally scoring above four hundred points increased from 19% in 1999 to 30% 2007 (an increase of ~60%).

If a teacher is pressured by a parent, so what? Just say "No". If they go to the principal, let them say "No". But, this is the crucial thing: the JCSA is of no external importance, so there would be no benefit - to the student - of a teacher relenting and increasing their grade.

I am very familiar with the UK system, so would be more than willing to discuss it. And, I think it is totally incorrect to liken the GCSE to the proposed JCSA.

happywithlife

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

If a teacher is pressured by a parent, so what? Just say "No". If they go to the principal, let them say "No". But, this is the crucial thing: the JCSA is of no external importance, so there would be no benefit - to the student - of a teacher relenting and increasing their grade.
QUOTE]



So what? Just say No

Geez what planet are you on? I'd like to see you say that to a part time teacher who is desperately clinging to what crumbs <hours> a principal can throw them next year. In an ideal world yes of course you would be free to "just say No"
Or what about the parent who has in the past barged into your classroom, uninvited, unannounced and proceeded to F**k you out of it in front of your class because you had the audacity to correct /reprimand their little Mary in the previous class - do you "just say no" to them too if they're threatening to key your car? And it ain't an idle threat either. And before you say 'get the guards involved' these parents don't give a tossers about the judicial system.
They wouldn't actually care what grade their kid got but for some it'd about the ability to threaten intimidate bully and get what they decide they're (or rather their child is ) entitled to.

And again in an ideal world a principal would show a over zealous parent the door if they questioned a grade but other factors could well be at play and said principal could just as eager to have inflated grades

Mr Pseudonym

happywithlife wrote: »

So what? Just say No

Geez what planet are you on? I'd like to see you say that to a part time teacher who is desperately clinging to what crumbs <hours> a principal can throw them next year. In an ideal world yes of course you would be free to "just say No"
Or what about the parent who has in the past barged into your classroom, uninvited, unannounced and proceeded to F**k you out of it in front of your class because you had the audacity to correct /reprimand their little Mary in the previous class - do you "just say no" to them too if they're threatening to key your car? And it ain't an idle threat either. And before you say 'get the guards involved' these parents don't give a tossers about the judicial system.
They wouldn't actually care what grade their kid got but for some it'd about the ability to threaten intimidate bully and get what they decide they're (or rather their child is ) entitled to.

And again in an ideal world a principal would show a over zealous parent the door if they questioned a grade but other factors could well be at play and said principal could just as eager to have inflated grades

Does that happen at Primary level? Does that happen (more than very-irregularly) in First, Second, and Fifth years? No. As almost all external importance will be taken out of the final results of the Junior Cycle, there is no reason to believe that that will become more common under teacher-assessment.

However, if a tiny minority of parents do do that (and if you have any credibility, you will not suggest that physical aggression from parents is anything but irregular), I suggest you accede: no one benefits from the manipulation.

As for principals wishing to inflate the grades: what would be the motive?! At present, not even LC performance of schools is published, so why would a principal care about JC performance?

km79

Wonder what will come out from CEC meeting today

Mr Pseudonym

km79 wrote: »

Wonder what will come out from CEC meeting today

Whatever does, I'm sure it'll be entirely sensible!

spurious

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

However, if a tiny minority of parents do do that (and if you have any credibility, you will not suggest that physical aggression from parents is anything but irregular), I suggest you accede: no one benefits from the manipulation.

In some schools it's not that irregular at all, sadly.

Mr Pseudonym

spurious wrote: »

In some schools it's not that irregular at all, sadly.

If that is the case (and I don't concede that it is), do you support obstructing educational development because of the problem of aggressively-interfering parents in a very small minority of schools?

spurious

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

If that is the case (and I don't concede that it is), do you support obstructing educational development because of the problem of aggressively-interfering parents in a very small minority of schools?

No I don't, I propose those that live in a world where such things do not happen strongly support those teachers and support staff who have to deal with abuse and violence at work on a daily basis, not suggest they are exaggerating.

maynooth_rules

Does that happen (more than very-irregularly) in First, Second, and Fifth years? No.

Its happened four times in our school this year, three times from parents of kids in 1st and 2nd year.

the_syco

endakenny wrote: »

How could a teacher dislike a student who does well at the subject that the teacher teaches that student?

If the student is bored out of his tree and although gets good marks, creates trouble in the class.

=-=

I wonder how much an "A" will cost in the fee paying schools, and how much they stand to lose should a student with wealthy parents get "bad" results? Further more, what protection will the teachers have in fee paying schools if they mark down the wealthy-parent students?

=-=

Offtopic;

rainbowtrout wrote: »

In terms of hand-on experience, I ask you to consider a recurring topic on boards from NQTs which is discipline. From my lectures in college and from my reading in college as far as us teacher training students were concerned all you had to do to maintain discipline in a classroom was keep the students occupied and the rest would fall into place and the classroom would be a harmonious learning environment.

Hrm, this explains so much. And I agree, it doesn't work. The majority of classes that I was in during post-primary only stayed quite if the teachers went through with their threats. Although I was a good kid, most of my class weren't, and saw school as their playground.

=-=

rainbowtrout wrote: »

On top of that the subjects and levels students get to do in 5th year is often determined by the grades they get in Junior Cert, particularly in core subjects.

Levels students get in 1st year determine the grades they do in 2nd year. The Junior Cert would often be a kick up ones backside to drop a level or study harder. Without this kick, I wonder will students actually drop a level, or consider that "it's grand", and continue on?

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

If a teacher is pressured by a parent, so what? Just say "No". If they go to the principal, let them say "No".

Luckily no teacher fears for their job... esp the part-timers, or those in fee paying schools.

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

But, this is the crucial thing: the JCSA is of no external importance, so there would be no benefit - to the student - of a teacher relenting and increasing their grade.

I agree regarding the external part. However, it will falsely give the student good marks which will go against them in the LC, by which it'll be too late to drop a level.

rainbowtrout

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

Does that happen at Primary level? Does that happen (more than very-irregularly) in First, Second, and Fifth years? No. As almost all external importance will be taken out of the final results of the Junior Cycle, there is no reason to believe that that will become more common under teacher-assessment.

However, if a tiny minority of parents do do that (and if you have any credibility, you will not suggest that physical aggression from parents is anything but irregular), I suggest you accede: no one benefits from the manipulation.

As for principals wishing to inflate the grades: what would be the motive?! At present, not even LC performance of schools is published, so why would a principal care about JC performance?

A simple motive: headage, numbers, bums on seats. Call it what you want, if you are in a catchment area where there are a few schools competing for the same pool of students you will want to present your school in the best light to attract the best students. In some cases this will mean grade inflation. Word gets around how students are doing in schools and it can mean that schools suddenly become popular and attract more students.

acequion

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

As for principals wishing to inflate the grades: what would be the motive?! At present, not even LC performance of schools is published, so why would a principal care about JC performance?

Mr Pseudonym, you are very deluded indeed if you think results don't matter or that the reputation of the school doesn't rest on them. This is Ireland,after all. A small country where things don't need to be published to be known about. I live in a fairly large town in the south where there are five secondary schools. And yet parents know who the "best teachers" are in all the schools. You frequently hear "he /she gets great results" being bandied about. And believe me, principals love that and put a lot of pressure on their teachers to achieve good results in both state exams.That situation will only get worse if the JCSA comes in, as exams and results will still remain the main focus,all that's being shifted are the goal posts. In fact once standardised testing gets under way,it will be difficult not to stop the publication of results as in league tables, leading to even more performance pressure.So much for the spin that the new system will reduce the stress on pupils!

Secondly,you keep referring to the JCSA as an improvement and positive curricular reform. The fact is that it is not. Improvements,which all teachers desire,could be made without implementing such a drastic change and without adopting a model,the outcomes based model,which has failed in other English speaking countries.

km79

Anything from CEC yet? I heard a Rumour about some biggish news being announced this evening

km79

It has been confirmed. Another ballot !!!
Ballot is on strike action and will take place early August........unless of course it's all posturing and we will be sold out over the summer again.......
http://www.asti.ie/news/latest-news/news-article/article/asti-to-ballot-on-further-industrial-action-over-junior-cycle//back_to/latest-news/

Mr Pseudonym

Isn't this fun?!

maynooth_rules wrote: »

Its happened four times in our school this year, three times from parents of kids in 1st and 2nd year.

The question was specifically in relation to correction of grades. Can you confirm that what happened was physical (or other) intimidation by parents seeking to have the results of a student in a non-exam year changed?

the_syco wrote: »

I wonder how much an "A" will cost in the fee paying schools, and how much they stand to lose should a student with wealthy parents get "bad" results? Further more, what protection will the teachers have in fee paying schools if they mark down the wealthy-parent students?

Levels students get in 1st year determine the grades they do in 2nd year. The Junior Cert would often be a kick up ones backside to drop a level or study harder. Without this kick, I wonder will students actually drop a level, or consider that "it's grand", and continue on?

I agree regarding the external part. However, it will falsely give the student good marks which will go against them in the LC, by which it'll be too late to drop a level.

WHY WOULD ANYONE PAY?!!! Also, why would any private-school-parent risk the embarrassment of that becoming known? I was in the class of the child of a well-known Irish "rock-star" and the teacher had no compunction marking-down or rebuking the person. Are you in any way familiar with the environment in private schools?

It may seem as if that is the case, but an ESRI study found that the exact opposite happened to students' motivations - ie it declined after first year.

Why would it be too late to drop a level?

rainbowtrout wrote: »

A simple motive: headage, numbers, bums on seats. Call it what you want, if you are in a catchment area where there are a few schools competing for the same pool of students you will want to present your school in the best light to attract the best students. In some cases this will mean grade inflation. Word gets around how students are doing in schools and it can mean that schools suddenly become popular and attract more students.

I don't buy that. A sure way to fix that would be to publish the results of the standardised tests.

acequion wrote: »

Mr Pseudonym, you are very deluded indeed if you think results don't matter or that the reputation of the school doesn't rest on them. This is Ireland,after all. A small country where things don't need to be published to be known about. I live in a fairly large town in the south where there are five secondary schools. And yet parents know who the "best teachers" are in all the schools. You frequently hear "he /she gets great results" being bandied about. And believe me, principals love that and put a lot of pressure on their teachers to achieve good results in both state exams.That situation will only get worse if the JCSA comes in, as exams and results will still remain the main focus,all that's being shifted are the goal posts. In fact once standardised testing gets under way,it will be difficult not to stop the publication of results as in league tables, leading to even more performance pressure.So much for the spin that the new system will reduce the stress on pupils!

Secondly,you keep referring to the JCSA as an improvement and positive curricular reform. The fact is that it is not. Improvements,which all teachers desire,could be made without implementing such a drastic change and without adopting a model,the outcomes based model,which has failed in other English speaking countries.

I must be deluded. The series of events you portray as inevitable is far-fetched, IMO.

I disagree with your contention that it is not an improvement. It is very easy to say that it has failed in other English-speaking countries, but can you be more specific so I can rebut your claim.

rainbowtrout

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

Isn't this fun?!




The question was specifically in relation to correction of grades. Can you confirm that what happened was physical (or other) intimidation by parents seeking to have the results of a student in a non-exam year changed?




WHY WOULD ANYONE PAY?!!! Also, why would any private-school-parent risk the embarrassment of that becoming known? I was in the class of the child of a well-known Irish "rock-star" and the teacher had no compunction marking-down or rebuking the person. Are you in any way familiar with the environment in private schools?

It may seem as if that is the case, but an ESRI study found that the exact opposite happened to students' motivations - ie it declined after first year.

Why would it be too late to drop a level?




I don't buy that. A sure way to fix that would be to publish the results of the standardised tests.




I must be deluded. The series of events you portray as inevitable is far-fetched, IMO.

I disagree with your contention that it is not an improvement. It is very easy to say that it has failed in other English-speaking countries, but can you be more specific so I can rebut your claim.

Because you don't buy it, in your opinion it can't be true. Well I can assure you it happens. I work in the town I teach in and people from around the town that don't even have kids in school can tell me what subjects I teach. If something major incident happens up in the school the whole town knows about it. A couple of my non teacher friends from the area are able to tell me who got the highest results and what points those students got within a couple of hours of the LC results coming out.

The new junior cert is going to be assessed at common level. If student grades are inflated it will lead some to believe that they are capable of HL in that subject for LC, when in actual fact they are more suited to OL. Many of those will be convinced that they are able for higher level because of the result they got in the junior cert.

Currently in JC Science 35% of the grade goes for project work. A lot of students pass JC Science at higher level with a D. The bulk of those marks come from the project. Those students then continue on to try a science at HL because they think they are able for science because they passed it at HL for Junior Cert. The reality is that they are not suited to science at HL in a lot of cases and end up doing ordinary level. They may have however dropped another subject they were far more suited to.

In relation to your comment on paying for grades. It's not paying directly for grades, it's the notion of paying costly fees for private schooling leads many parents to believe that their darling son or daughter is entitled to top grades as a result. You might have witnessed one rock star's son being rebuked by a teacher and fair play to that teacher, but it's not the case for all students in that situation. I know plenty of teachers in private/fee paying schools who are under pressure to do whatever it takes to get a student a top grade, and those parents are not shy when it comes to picking up the phone to find out why their child is not achieving the grade they think he/she deserves.

Mr Pseudonym

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Currently in JC Science 35% of the grade goes for project work. A lot of students pass JC Science at higher level with a D. The bulk of those marks come from the project. Those students then continue on to try a science at HL because they think they are able for science because they passed it at HL for Junior Cert. The reality is that they are not suited to science at HL in a lot of cases and end up doing ordinary level. They may have however dropped another subject they were far more suited to.

In relation to your comment on paying for grades. It's not paying directly for grades, it's the notion of paying costly fees for private schooling leads many parents to believe that their darling son or daughter is entitled to top grades as a result. You might have witnessed one rock star's son being rebuked by a teacher and fair play to that teacher, but it's not the case for all students in that situation. I know plenty of teachers in private/fee paying schools who are under pressure to do whatever it takes to get a student a top grade, and those parents are not shy when it comes to picking up the phone to find out why their child is not achieving the grade they think he/she deserves.

The bulk comes from the course-work because it's not challenging and doesn't seek to differentiate students. If the children of parents who meddle end up doing badly as a result of that, the parents will soon stop.

I don't think your impression of fee-paying schools is accurate.

acequion

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

I must be deluded. The series of events you portray as inevitable is far-fetched, IMO.

I disagree with your contention that it is not an improvement. It is very easy to say that it has failed in other English-speaking countries, but can you be more specific so I can rebut your claim.

"So I can rebut your claim" That is all you seem to do.Rebut and refute everything and your objective on this thread appears to be to win your debate regardless. Several posters,who happen to be experienced teachers, have given you excellent reasons and examples as to why Quinn's reforms at best are a bad idea, yet you refuse to even consider it,sticking doggedly to your contention that you are right and everyone else is wrong,even though you have never worked in a school. You are as impossible to reason with as Quinn himself. Which is why as I said to you in an earlier post,I'm not interested in sparring with you.

However you asked for an example of the failure of such a model in other countries. We need look no further than across the water,to England. The OBE model has been implemented in many English speaking countries such as the UK,US,South Africa,Australia and New Zealand and while, as with any system, you will find proponents and opponents, the overwhelming consensus is that in poorly funded state schools, excessive bureaucratisation has a very negative impact.The JCSA has been compared to Scotland's curriculum for Excellence, yet Scotland's main teacher union reports increasing frustration among teachers in trying to implement it, as the increased bureaucracy is having a very detrimental effect on classroom work. Put simply, Scottish teachers are finding that they can no longer devote themselves to effective teaching as they have to spend so much time on all the extra assessments and the additional paperwork which that requires.Therefore any system which seriously hinders effective teaching and learning,is indeed a failed system.

Mr Pseudonym

acequion wrote: »

"So I can rebut your claim" That is all you seem to do.Rebut and refute everything and your objective on this thread appears to be to win your debate regardless. Several posters,who happen to be experienced teachers, have given you excellent reasons and examples as to why Quinn's reforms at best are a bad idea, yet you refuse to even consider it,sticking doggedly to your contention that you are right and everyone else is wrong,even though you have never worked in a school. You are as impossible to reason with as Quinn himself. Which is why as I said to you in an earlier post,I'm not interested in sparring with you.

You are such a hypocrite! You have sought to do the exact same, but from the other side.

Having read and thought, I have decided the JCSA is a positive reform. I do not agree that the contributors to this thread have given "excellent reasons and examples as to why Quinn's reforms at best are a bad idea", which is why my opinion hasn't changed. However, and it's happened on several occasions, I am perfectly willing to change strongly-held opinions if presented with evidence and convincing arguments.

However you asked for an example of the failure of such a model in other countries. We need look no further than across the water,to England. The OBE model has been implemented in many English speaking countries such as the UK,US,South Africa,Australia and New Zealand and while, as with any system, you will find proponents and opponents, the overwhelming consensus is that in poorly funded state schools, excessive bureaucratisation has a very negative impact.The JCSA has been compared to Scotland's curriculum for Excellence, yet Scotland's main teacher union reports increasing frustration among teachers in trying to implement it, as the increased bureaucracy is having a very detrimental effect on classroom work. Put simply, Scottish teachers are finding that they can no longer devote themselves to effective teaching as they have to spend so much time on all the extra assessments and the additional paperwork which that requires.Therefore any system which seriously hinders effective teaching and learning,is indeed a failed system.

Are you incapable of giving any evidence?! All of the above is hearsay!