Socially and Economically Liberal Party in Ireland

AngryLips

Hi all. Firstly, I'm not a follower of this forum so apologies if this is something that has come up before. I was wondering are there any political parties in this country that are both socially liberal and economically liberal? Yes, I get that FG/FF are broadly populist parties but they are more socially conservative and economically liberal if I were to try and make sense of them. Is this a space left unoccupied since the collapse of the PDs (and yes, I know they grew ever more socially conservative towards the end). Also, is the absence of such a party common across Europe or are we some sort of anomaly?

comongethappy

Open to correction, but I don't think there is a libertarian party.

I doubt one would be a success, the myriad of left parties would cry "far right".

As a non-native I'd love to see such a party, but since the PDs rise I cannot see it happening.

I know its a generalisation, however I think Irish people for the most part love a bigger & bigger state, involving itself in more & more of their lives.

hfallada

I think there is certainly a vacuum for one in Dublin and other cities. There is so many wealthy,educated people in Ireland, who cant understand why issues such as a prenup is completely ignored, but necessary in a modern economy. Why same-sex marriage is taking so long to be legalised despite having majority support, why issues such as abortion cant be debated in a rational manner. The fact no a single political party will discuss the fact it takes so long to get a divorce in Ireland, despite a majority of young people seeing nothing wrong with it.

A lot of wealthy people are sick of having some of the highest marginal rates of income tax in Europe, at such a low threshold. But yet get very little in return. How our welfare system creates a system of entitlement and little incentive to work. Most middle class families are sick of having to pay for such a large amount of the population, who dont contribute anything to society.

Most young people believe the role of the state should be greatly limited and significantly reduced. You are more likely to hear a young person giving out about state involvement in something, rather than their lack of involvement in something. You will find very few young people who agree with a nanny state. State involvement in the private sector has been a disaster for the last 15 years. Bank Bailouts, property incentives, building unnecessary infrastructure, etc. has been incredible expensive and has lower the Irish standard of living.

Its very hard to argue, that a large state involvement in the economy is benefit-able. Individuals like Michael Porter, believe businesses are better at solving societal issues, than a government. That is clearly the case in Ireland

Manach

From my reading of various theorists, such as Dahl, there is certain flexibility on the core beliefs of parties. They tend to operate on a referencial scale instead of adhering to absolute values. As well, these values are two fold, one set to appeal to core voters and another set to appeal to a wider base. Hence the shift at election time both to perceived centralise popular positions to maximise votes.

comongethappy

comongethappy wrote: »

Open to correction, but I don't think there is a libertarian party.

Actually..... From another thread (along similar lines)
https://m.facebook.com/LiberalIreland?_rdr

AngryLips

hfallada wrote: »

Most middle class families are sick of having to pay for such a large amount of the population, who dont contribute anything to society.

I think you've touched on an interesting point here because this is where the lines between social and economical become blurred I think. Doesn't part of being socially liberal also involve having a welfare state puts the protection of the marginalised first while at the same time supporting free enterprise?

comongethappy

AngryLips wrote: »

I think you've touched on an interesting point here because this is where the lines between social and economical become blurred I think. Doesn't part of being socially liberal also involve having a welfare state puts the protection of the marginalised first while at the same time supporting free enterprise?

Libertarians would favour the individual taking care of themselves in hard times.

Or at least having a welfare system that reflects the contribution someone makes & ending the situation where non contributors receive the same SW as someone paying a lot of PRSI

road_high

comongethappy wrote: »

Libertarians would favour the individual taking care of themselves in hard times.

Or at least having a welfare system that reflects the contribution someone makes & ending the situation where non contributors receive the same SW as someone paying a lot of PRSI

Unfortunately big government has created learned helplessness among Irish society.. Self reliance gone out the window far as I can see

AngryLips

comongethappy wrote: »

Libertarians would favour the individual taking care of themselves in hard times.

I don't think so. That's more an economically liberal attitude towards social policy but I don't think it's consistent with liberal social policy in the sense that it's in pursuit of the personal and public good.

In an Irish context, I wonder if we'll see a shift to more liberal social policies amongst any of the main parties consistent with their populist tendencies now that the decline of the church is well and truly cemented and as conservative attitudes are disappearing

Manach

AngryLips wrote: »

... the decline of the church is well and truly cemented and as conservative attitudes are disappearing

Sorry mate, but we've not gone away ...

AngryLips

Manach wrote: »

Sorry mate, but we've not gone away ...

Lucinda? Is that you again?

Manach

Ah the cutting wit and the unique sense of reality - so nice to meet you Mr. Gilmore.

Karl Stein

hfallada wrote: »

A lot of wealthy people are sick of having some of the highest marginal rates of income tax in Europe, at such a low threshold. But yet get very little in return.

That's like saying the biggest fish in the lake are not getting any benefit from it which requires total suspension of reason.

You've got to hand it to propaganda makers, they really do have some utterly convinced that those who benefit most from the economy get little or nothing in return... well, the poor dupes who buy into their bullshit, at least.

I could choose to tell my story this way: 'I arrived with $250 in my pocket, and got where I am based entirely on my hard work.' This is true, but it's not the whole truth .... Every day I benefit from schools, hospitals, roads, bridges, parks, and civic amenities that were built and paid for by previous generations who were much less well off than we are today."

-Arul Menezes, Microsoft Millionaire

How our welfare system creates a system of entitlement

Yes, yes let's focus our welfare lens on those at the bottom of the heap to divert attention away from the massive corporate welfare programs.

hmmm

The PDs would have been economically conservative however, i.e. empowering individuals, reducing tax rates, reducing government spending. Economically liberal and socially liberal would be a left-wing party in my book.

Personally I think there is easily 20% of the electorate who would easily fall into the economically conservative/socially liberal category and there certainly is a gap. Unfortunately Ireland is such a small country that we're reliant on the same small group of people to fill those parties, and people like successful businesspeople have no interest in getting involved in frontline politics. If you can make millions in business, you don't want to be listening to whinging from people who want free houses and a monorail in every village.

Karl Stein

hmmm wrote: »

The PDs would have been economically conservative however ... reducing government spending..

Weren't they governing while government spending ballooned?

comongethappy

Karl Stein wrote: »

Weren't they governing while government spending ballooned?

They weren't in charge of the finances.

That was FF policy.

comongethappy

Karl Stein wrote: »

Yes, yes let's focus our welfare lens on those at the bottom of the heap to divert attention away from the massive corporate welfare programs.

A libertarian is opposed to corporate welfare in any form.

Corporate welfare being a distortion of the market.

Karl Stein

comongethappy wrote: »

They weren't in charge of the finances.

That was FF policy.

I see, you're trying to create a 'moat of virtue' around the PD's.

They were in government when that government was spending euros like they were going out of fashion and that included inflating the size of the public sector and its costs.

Karl Stein

comongethappy wrote: »

A libertarian is opposed to corporate welfare in any form.

Yet 'libertarians' tend to whinge and moan about social welfare in favour of corporate welfare.

Corporate welfare being a distortion of the market.

Corporations themselves, inasmuch as they exist at all, are distortions of the fabled 'free market', are opt-in, and are granted privileges by the laws of the state.

comongethappy

Karl Stein wrote: »

Yet 'libertarians' tend to whinge and moan about social welfare in favour of corporate welfare

Example?

I haven't read much corporate welfare endorsement here?

Karl Stein

comongethappy wrote: »

Example?

Nah, I'd rather not trawl the posts of people who step in and out of the 'cloak of libertarian virtue' to see how many times they've whinged about social welfare in favour of corporate welfare, public sector unions in favour of professional associations etcetera, etcetera.

I haven't read much corporate welfare endorsement here?

It's camouflaged but it's there.

comongethappy

Karl Stein wrote: »

It's camouflaged but it's there.

Triffic, thats me convinced!

Anyway, back on message.
Is there anything wrong with a social/economic liberal choice for the Irish electorate?

Karl Stein

comongethappy wrote: »

Triffic, thats me convinced!

Oh that's handy because I couldn't be bothered wallowing through a mind-numbingly tedious back-and-forth with 'libertarians'.

Enjoy.

Manach

comongethappy wrote: »

Anyway, back on message.
Is there anything wrong with a social/economic liberal choice for the Irish electorate?

Well there is the EU. In that even if a Free Market party (a la Miles/Hyeck)would be elected, then it most operate in an environment shaped by Brussels. This is one where there are significant levels of regulation present. On one hand, this could be the price of being part of the European project - but these have overriding authority over Irish law and cannot be pared away.
So the central plank of the lib-platform would be un-emplementable?

riffmongous

Well there are economically liberal parties running for election in Austria at the moment, approaching it from both pro-EU and anti EU positions.

Good loser

road_high wrote: »

Unfortunately big government has created learned helplessness among Irish society.. Self reliance gone out the window far as I can see

Yesterday on Joe Duffy heard this lady who was losing her rented house say that to get a replacement she 'had contacted 20 TDs' and was waiting for some of them to 'get back to her'.

Idbatterim

I could choose to tell my story this way: 'I arrived with $250 in my pocket, and got where I am based entirely on my hard work.' This is true, but it's not the whole truth .... Every day I benefit from schools, hospitals, roads, bridges, parks, and civic amenities that were built and paid for by previous generations who were much less well off than we are today."

-Arul Menezes, Microsoft Millionaire

That's like saying the biggest fish in the lake are not getting any benefit from it which requires total suspension of reason.

You've got to hand it to propaganda makers, they really do have some utterly convinced that those who benefit most from the economy get little or nothing in return... well, the poor dupes who buy into their bull****, at least.

Hang on, I or one of the other 1.9 million workers in the country contribute anything from a few euro a week to a few thousand a week in income taxes, those that dont work or never have, receive everything that has been listed above, in fact the more you earn, you lose a lot of "entitlements" so the more you contribute, the more you get shafted, pretty counter intuitive. My point being, my taxes dont get me anything that somebody not working gets, in fact they rule me out of a host of benefits and perks...

Karl Stein

Idbatterim wrote: »

Hang on, I or one of the other 1.9 million workers in the country contribute anything from a few euro a week to a few thousand a week in income taxes

Ignoring all the taxes, levies and flat charges that affect the less well-off more, and focussing on income taxes alone, is a ridiculously reductive way of considering who pays what, relative to their means, and what they receive in return.

It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion

Adam Smith

those that dont work or never have, receive everything that has been listed above,

How many of these 'never worked' people have businesses, or lifestyles, that receive great benefit from motorways, ports, airports, police, courts, prisons, schools, university graduates etc? The motorways are going to serve a business with a fleet of HGV's far far more than they're going to serve some single parent living in a flat with a child.

in fact the more you earn, you lose a lot of "entitlements" so the more you contribute,

I was quoting someone who cited the wealthy and I suspect you're alluding more to the squeezed middle. I agree that the middle class is being squeezed hard but the above still applies.

My point being, my taxes dont get me anything that somebody not working gets, in fact they rule me out of a host of benefits and perks...

They get you an entire economic 'ecosystem' that's all around you.

I'm conscious that the thread is being dragged off topic and heading in a direction that's not going to be helpful to the debate. If you feel compelled to continue this line of discussion then let's do it by PM.

Idbatterim

I was quoting someone who cited the wealthy and I suspect you're alluding more to the squeezed middle. I agree that the middle class is being squeezed hard but the above still applies.

I was in the main referring to the squeezed middle yes. I just dont agree with the setup here whatsoever, of course there need to be some form of social supports and a safety net, but it just goes too far here IMO... I far prefer the German model, but we are comparing a reckless feckless short term vision country with pretty much the other extreme there, so I wont get my hopes up... I just dont agree here at all with the wealth distribution.

Lou.m

hfallada wrote: »

I think there is certainly a vacuum for one in Dublin and other cities. There is so many wealthy,educated people in Ireland, who cant understand why issues such as a prenup is completely ignored, but necessary in a modern economy. Why same-sex marriage is taking so long to be legalised despite having majority support, why issues such as abortion cant be debated in a rational manner. The fact no a single political party will discuss the fact it takes so long to get a divorce in Ireland, despite a majority of young people seeing nothing wrong with it.

A lot of wealthy people are sick of having some of the highest marginal rates of income tax in Europe, at such a low threshold. But yet get very little in return. How our welfare system creates a system of entitlement and little incentive to work. Most middle class families are sick of having to pay for such a large amount of the population, who dont contribute anything to society.

Most young people believe the role of the state should be greatly limited and significantly reduced. You are more likely to hear a young person giving out about state involvement in something, rather than their lack of involvement in something. You will find very few young people who agree with a nanny state. State involvement in the private sector has been a disaster for the last 15 years. Bank Bailouts, property incentives, building unnecessary infrastructure, etc. has been incredible expensive and has lower the Irish standard of living.

Its very hard to argue, that a large state involvement in the economy is benefit-able. Individuals like Michael Porter, believe businesses are better at solving societal issues, than a government. That is clearly the case in Ireland

The reason is very few people are voting ....voter turnout for FF and FG is low and the people who always vote regardless and can be persuaded to vote of for anyone on an issue are the crazy far right wing nut jobs. They might lose the referendum on their issue but they will continue to vote for the politicians who fought on their side and against those who didn't whereas the majority will not.

They may not be many but they are more reliable than the majority.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.