Pistol application

Sparks

Heckler wrote: »

I should know this by now but...

What role does the F.O. have apart from taking the application ?

Officially, none.

Do they recommend to the super that it should be granted ?

They can, but it's the super's call.

If they do recommend why would a super not sign off ?

Usually, because they're several ranks lower down the chain than the super.

i.e. is it really down to the F.O. taking the application whether it gets a green light ?

No, and we've been told by the Gardai in the past that if the FO says no, thank them politely and ask that the application go to the super. The FO has no say in it (and strictly speaking, FO isn't even a garda role, it's just a slang term).

yubabill1

Sparks wrote: »

No, they're taking the mickey out of us because someone took a lot of cases that needed a phone call to the right person from the FPU and a quiet slap on the wrist to Ballistics by the higher-ranked FPU to sort out, and ran them straight into the high court and the media and got every single high-ranking person's backs up.



:mad:

This is the old-fashioned way.

Things worked like that when the top rate of income tax was 70%. Your in-the-know accountant would say there was a way around it if you knew the right person; this became known as Ansbacher.

Hardly ideal.

Time for change in AGS.

Lmklad

FO is certainly more then slang.

FO is a designated person who accepts, checks and processes applications. Can also be the person who does the back ground checks. Makes a recommendation to the super which the super takes into consideration when forming his opinion. As the FO has local contact they can be the deciding factor if an applicant is in doubt.

Heckler

Lmklad wrote: »

FO is certainly more then slang.

FO is a designated person who accepts, checks and processes applications. Can also be the person who does the back ground checks. Makes a recommendation to the super which the super takes into consideration when forming his opinion. As the FO has local contact they can be the deciding factor if an applicant is in doubt.

Was no designated F.O. in my case. The garda at the front desk took the paperwork. He did look it over and asked a few questions, photocopied my drivers license and that was it. Much as I hate an interview I think I'd have nearly preferred it to be able to clarify a few points. Ah well. In the lap of the gods now.

Sparks

Lmklad wrote: »

FO is certainly more then slang.

In terms of Garda roles, it is just slang. It's whomever didn't step back fast enough when the sergeant was looking for volunteers. It is not an official garda role, we've been told this by the AGS themselves. Some places have the same garda doing the job for years; others change it every few months. There's no consistency to it at all.

tac foley

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Short answer ....NO! Simply because the rest of the World,well apart from North Korea,the UK and other enlightned handgun free places doesnt consider it a serious problem whether you have 5 or 10 .22 rounds in your pistol or whether you have 6.10 or 8 shots in your .22 wheelgun.

I see you have your 'blatt the UK hat' on, Sir, and protest strongly. :mad: Comparing the parliamentary democracy of the UK with the madcap dictatorship of the PDRK does you no favours with the people from UK who visit these pages. Of course, those in PDRK aren't allowed to see this forum anyway, as private possession of a computer - or a cell-phone - can get you executed for treason.

Here in the MAINLAND UK it's true that handguns are very restricted, but we DO have the UK-legal version of the GSG1911 and the much better Low Mills version - all-steel - made by Iver Johnson. We can also have the Browning Buckmark and some strange-looking, but nevertheless ANY calibre long-barrelled revolvers - six, seven and nine-shot cylinders, BTW - and single-shot pistols in most rifle calibres you can think of. A .45-70 Govt single-shot long-range handgun? Just for the fun of it? Sure, you can.

Anyhow, I digress. Magazines for the semi-automatic 1911-style handguns are limited to handy 20's - since that's all that are available anyhow. If there was a larger one, we could have that too, since we don't have the 'must be an Olympic' pistol rule that you have. Not sure how you guys get around that with a revolver, though.

However, in the North of Ireland there are no such restrictions on the ownership of modern handguns, as I'm sure you know already, and you can have whatever you can justify owning.

As for magazines, there are absolutely NO magazine restrictions of any kind - 5, 10, 25/30 or 50 ALL are available in return only for money. We even have that nifty little hand-cranked device to help you load 'em up - fifty at a time. Great fun.

Unlike North Korea, and the Republic of Ireland, BTW, we can have ANY calibre rifle up to .75", or shotgun up to 2" bore, no matter how 'black' and 'military' it looks like, and have places to shoot them too, reloading for everybody who shoots, NO such thing as a RESTRICTED calibre rifle or carbine, and free and easy access to black powder so that we can freely shoot our hundreds of thousands of black powder rifles, shotguns AND handguns. We count OUR empties as useless lumps of brass, too, not 'live rounds' and if I wanted another shotgun, or a hundred more shotguns, I could have them on my shotgun certificate at no extra cost - one shotgun license = as many shotguns as you want. We ARE limited, however, with regard to shotgun cartridges - in general, as private citizens, we can't have more than 26,000 3" Magnum or 35,000 2 3/4" standard velocity cartridges at any one time - but that's enough for most of us.



tac

Witcher

I'm not suprised you have no restrictions Tac with the rigmarole you posted here in the past on getting a rifle in the UK. I'd expect a tactical nuke after all this;

What's the procedure if someone wants to start clay shooting say? Join a club-probationary period- then you can get your own gun or is that system for rifles only?

tac foley wrote: »

Let's take your questions one at a time, and then I promise I'll go away before I p*ss too many more people off.

1. Here in UK, game shooters are called 'stalkers/deerstalkers, rather than hunters. Hunters are very large horses, mostly Irish-bred where I live.

Game shooters here in UK who are new to the sport have to be mentored - as Jerry notes in the post above - over the land they are allowed to shoot for around three to six months by an experienced shooter who is already 'in place' there. They also are advised to undertake the various levels of training to shoot game that are offered by the British Deer Society - Levels 1, 2 and 3. Some locations insist on Level 1 before they let you on the hill. Here in UK a noob is allowed on an estate shoot to actually carry a gun with very close - one-to-one supervision - by an experienced shooter from the estate authority. Only after they have satified their mentor are they allowed to make application for a firearms certificate to cover the rifle that they want. The named mentor will act as referee in this case.

This is one way to get into deer-stalking here in UK - http://www.countrysportscotland.com/beginners/deer-stalking-for-beginners/ - run by the BASC.

So nobody actually gets to buy a gun on the off-chance that they might just like to go and pot a few deer. The 'good reason' in law for you to be allowed to acquire and possess a suitable firearm is 'deer-stalking'. Prove that you've ticked the boxes and got the papers to prove it and you are away.

2. There is no such animal as a village gun club here in UK - only in Switzerland, parts of Germany and Austria do villages often have their own clubs of this kind. Instead, there are around 2500 gun clubs - look on google to see them all listed.

However, I'd say that 99.99% of ALL gun clubs in the UK have a selection of club guns for the use of noobs. Our club has a couple of .308Win, a couple of .303, a couple of .223, a couple of lever-action and half a dozen .22 of one kind or another. However, most of us also take a few guns along for noobs to use and get the feel of the different kinds of actions. Everything I have has been used by noobs many times, except my Long-barrelled revolver - only the license-holder is permitted to shoot such a firearm.

As an aside, there is no such thing as a prospective member here. We have twelve guest days per year, authorised by the home Office, where full members can bring their buddies, significant other or whatever along to show them what they really get up to on a weekend. As well, prospective members are steered our way by the NRA, NSRA, police or local gun-store after making enquiries as to how they might get into shooting and how to start the ball rolling. Most clubs in UK have either a three or six-month probationary period that is compulsory for ANYBODY new to shooting who wants to take up shooting a licenseable firearm. Fireams Certificate [called an FAC here] holders moving into the area might get excepted from this process, but it's up to the club committee to decide that one. Remember that in UK air weapons used in target shooting - ISSF or FT - do NOT need to be licensed, unlike Ireland, North and South. Having joined as a probie, you are now entitled and LEGAL to shoot anything that the club has, or that any other member might give you to shoot. However, you cannot apply for a FAC until you have completed your probationary period and are in possession of a FAC. You may buy ammunition, but it must be used on the range and cannot be taken away by you. If you don't use it all up on the day, then it is marked with your name and stored until next time.

During the probie time, you get to know all the ins and outs of safe-handling, the law, and what to do if something goes t*ts-up - misfire drills and so on. Not only that, but the other club members get a look at YOU, and will certainly give their impressions of your behaviour and attitude around live firearms when the time comes for you to be a full-time member - always supposing that your haven't screwed up meanwhile. With your time up, and with the advice of the club secretary, you can fill out your application form for a FAC, listing the four or five [that's usual] firearms that you wish to acquire, and the amount of ammunition that goes with them. The club secretary will endorse your application, and two other people, NOT members of the club, police or judiciary - are required to say what a fantastic law-abiding person you are, having known you for two years or more.

IF, on the other paw, it is the opinion of the club secretary that you haven't shown sufficient enthusiasm, common-sense, social responsiblity et al, to be allowed to procede to ownership of these potentially-lethal firearms, he will tell you so, and will refuse to endorse your appllication. In any event, probie or not - ONE single act of errant stupidity/brain fart - of any kind - whilst in charge of a live-firing firearm WILL get you ejected from the range/club on the spot on a permanent basis.

Remember that here in UK, for target shooting of any kind, club membership is mandatory, and is the de facto rationale and 'good reason' behind you having firearms in the fust place. Get kicked out of the club for stoopid if you are a probie, and it costs you nothing, except the amount it cost you for provisional membership. But getting kicked out of the club for 'stoopid' or acting the hoon with a gun, is a lot more serious, and WILL cost you your FAC and the subsequent loss of ALL your Section 1 rifled fireams on it. If you are a shotgunner, they might also revoke THAT license too.

At this point, you are stuffed.

The club secretary is required by law to inform the licensing authorities of his decision, just in case you try your luck at another club. If you are a provisional member, and do not yet have an FAC, and you decide that we were unfair to you and had a down on you because you were ginger [I was, when I had hair], there is a question on the FAC application form for such an eventuality - 'have you ever been refused an FAC for ANY reason - if so, state the reason'. Making a false declaration on an FAC application form - a 'sworn declaration Crown document' is very serious, and is in fact, a crime, not a misdemeanor, and an land you in jail for up to five years for 'attempting to obtain live-firing firearms by an act of criminal deception'.

tac foley

In spite of all that - we CAN - and do - have things that you can't have [yet], like reloading for all, or ever, probably - .50cal Barrett/MacMillan/Steyr long-range rifles - simply because, for the most part, you just don't have anywhere to shoot the darn things.

tac

Sparks

Are we really arguing over whose daddy could beat up whose daddy?

Witcher

tac foley wrote: »

In spite of all that - we CAN - and do - have things that you can't have [yet], like reloading for all, or ever, probably - .50cal Barrett/MacMillan/Steyr long-range rifles - simply because, for the most part, you just don't have anywhere to shoot the darn things.

tac

Just reading it there again it's not 1 million miles removed from the system here really. The deer stalking supervision and guest days at clubs is different but the rest isn't too far removed.

I edited this bit in after posting it;

What's the procedure if someone wants to start clay shooting say? Join a club -> probationary period - > then you can get your own gun or is that system for rifles only?

tac foley

Sparks wrote: »

Are we really arguing over whose daddy could beat up whose daddy?

Well, Sir, Mr Grizzly started it with his attack on the UK and by positing a misconception about the state of shooting here.

tac

tac foley

Blay wrote: »

Just reading it there again it's not 1 million miles removed from the system here really. The deer stalking supervision and guest days at clubs is different but the rest isn't too far removed.

I edited this bit in after posting it;

What's the procedure if someone wants to start clay shooting say? Join a club -> probationary period - > then you can get your own gun or is that system for rifles only?

See PM - this is too far OT for this thread, and not worth starting a new one on this site.

Best

tac

Sparks

tac foley wrote: »

Well, Sir, YOU started it with your attack on the UK and by positing a misconception about the state of shooting here.
tac

Take a nice, slow read back over the thread there tac, and point out to me the post where I even mentioned the UK.

Go on, I'll wait.

tac foley

Sparks wrote: »

Take a nice, slow read back over the thread there tac, and point out to me the post where I even mentioned the UK.

Go on, I'll wait.

Profound and deepest apologies, Sir.

It was Mr Grizzly and NOT you.

My only excuse is that I don't have my hearing aids in.

I'll take a hit.

tac

PS - I have amended my post accordingly.

Sparks

Think perhaps we can close the thread here.