Neil Lennon has left Celtic

Nerdlingr

Paully D wrote: »

He got one of the best ever teams to play in the Championship promoted and was sacked when just 4 points off relegation at Newcastle. It was a slightly harsh sacking IMO though. I can fully understand why Ashley did it. Great job is really pushing it. Did what was expected would be more accurate.

At Norwich he spent £26m this season and managed to take a team he had got to 11th to on the fringes of relegation with games against United, Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal to come after losing 1-0 at home to fellow strugglers, West Brom. A fully justified sacking though Norwich's mistake was not having a proper manager lined up to take the reigns. Great job? Come on now.

Unbelievably nice guy, very average football manager.

Played p*ss poor football at Norwich as well. Mutton dressed as lamb.

ScienceNerd

ScienceNerd wrote: »

A quick look at Larsson's managerial career so far reveals nothing above mediocrity.

Results against Barcelona in the CL is mediocrity

Gringo180

Paully D wrote: »

He got one of the best ever teams to play in the Championship promoted and was sacked when just 4 points off relegation at Newcastle. It was a slightly harsh sacking IMO though I can fully understand why Ashley did it. Great job is really pushing it. Did what was expected would be more accurate.

At Norwich he spent £26m this season and managed to take a team he had got to 11th to on the fringes of relegation with games against United, Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal to come after losing 1-0 at home to fellow strugglers, West Brom. A fully justified sacking though Norwich's mistake was not having a proper manager lined up to take the reigns. Great job? Come on now.

Unbelievably nice guy, very average football manager.

Great job is pushing it a bit but no way is he a failed manager. I think he would of steered Norwich to safety had he been left in the job.

Johner

Gringo180 wrote: »

I think he would of steered Norwich to safety had he been left in the job.

There is not a hope he would have kept Norwich up.

GLaDOS

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Results against Barcelona in the CL is mediocrity

I was talking about Larsson, not Lennon

Johner

Johner wrote: »

There is not a hope he would have kept Norwich up.

They had 5 games left, getting rid of him at the stage was even more detrimental. They were 5 points clear of the relegation zone.

Of course there was hope.

ScienceNerd

ScienceNerd wrote: »

I was talking about Larsson, not Lennon

Apologies.

GLaDOS

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Apologies.

No worries

Johner

M!Ck^ wrote: »

They had 5 games left, getting rid of him at the stage was even more detrimental. They were 5 points clear of the relegation zone.

Of course there was hope.

They were in horrible form and after losing at home to WBA and were going into 5 tough games against the likes of Chelsea, United, Liverpool and Arsenal. They were only going one way.

Chucky the tree

Gringo180 wrote: »

Great job is pushing it a bit but no way is he a failed manager. I think he would of steered Norwich to safety had he been left in the job.

Based on?

Gringo180

Johner wrote: »

There is not a hope he would have kept Norwich up.

Ah stop will you. He only needed 3 points from 5 games to keep them safe. They were in 16th position after 35 games last season and he managed to finish in 11th. Whene the chips were down he always seemed to pull results out of the bag. He beat the big sides as well in Utd, City and Arsenal last season so no reason why he wouldnt of done it this year. Criminal decision to sack him at that stage of the season, i was actually delighted they went down after the way he was treated.

Chucky the tree

He needed 5 points from Fulham, Liverpool, Chelsea, United and Arsenal. Very unlikely to achieve that.

Chucky the tree

Gringo180 wrote: »

Ah stop will you. He only needed 3 points from 5 games to keep them safe. They were in 16th position after 35 games last season and he managed to finish in 11th. Whene the chips were down he always seemed to pull results out of the bag. He beat the big sides as well in Utd, City and Arsenal last season so no reason why he wouldnt of done it this year. Criminal decision to sack him at that stage of the season, i was actually delighted they went down after the way he was treated.

Like when he lost to WBA at home?

Gringo180

Chucky the tree wrote: »

He needed 4 points from Fulham, Liverpool, Chelsea, United and Arsenal. Very unlikely to achieve that.

Do you honestly think they were in a better position of staying up when they sacked him and had no replacement?

Chucky the tree

Chucky the tree wrote: »

He needed 4 points from Fulham, Liverpool, Chelsea, United and Arsenal. Very unlikely to achieve that.

A win against Fulham and 1 point from the remaining three was very possible. Whatever hope they had initially sacking him pushed there's chances from 50% to 0%

Whatever morale was left, the board decided it would be better off sacking him thus defeating to relegation without letting the players and manager fight

bucketybuck

Johner wrote: »

If Pochettino leaves I'd imagine they would be aiming a little higher than Lennon.

I really don't understand thinking like this, who exactly do Southampton think they can get?

People are dismissing Lennons achievements as if there are a legion of experienced trophy winning managers out there just queueing up to take over at midtable Premier league clubs, that he shouldn't even be in with a shot at a club like Southampton.

But there aren't dozens of great coaches out there, theres just the usual gang of Mark Hughes, Chris Hughtons, Tony Pullis, David Moyes, Harry Redknapp, Owen Coyles and Roy Keanes. All the usual suspects swapping jobs around, you cannot tell me Neil Lennon doesn't deserve a chance ahead of them?

If title winning, Barcelona beating and Champions league quarter finalist Neil Lennon isn't worth a shot at the Premier league then how the hell did Brendan Rogers or Paul Lambert ever get offered a job?

Paully D

Gringo180 wrote: »

Great job is pushing it a bit but no way is he a failed manager. I think he would of steered Norwich to safety had he been left in the job.

It's obviously a pointless argument for those on both sides of the fence as we will never know for sure, but the way results for teams like Sunderland transpired Norwich ended up finishing 3 points off safety despite drawing with Chelsea.

I personally don't think he would have got the required points. He, and Norwich, looked broken after the West Brom defeat.

Gringo180

M!Ck^ wrote: »

A win against Fulham and 1 point from the remaining three was very possible. Whatever hope they had initially sacking him pushed there's chances from 50% to 0%

Exactly, iirc he was in the same predictiment last season and done well in there last few games and ended up finishing 11th. Punching above there weight with that lge position.

Chucky the tree

Gringo180 wrote: »

Do you honestly think they were in a better position of staying up when they sacked him and had no replacement?

Yea. New manager(well mainly getting rid of the old one) can boast morale for a short time so worth a shot. If you think the current manager is going to get you relegated, why stick with him? If I was owner of Norwich at that time I would have not had any confidene in Hughton turning it around.

M!Ck^ wrote: »

A win against Fulham and 1 point from the remaining three was very possible. Whatever hope they had initially sacking him pushed there's chances from 50% to 0%

My mistake, he actually would have needed 5 points from those game.

death1234567

Hugely unlikeable player and even worse as a manager. Hopefully he is never seen managing a club again.

BMMachine

death1234567 wrote: »

Hugely unlikeable player and even worse as a manager. Hopefully he is never seen managing a club again.

what did he do? Id like examples. I often hear things like this but am very unsure why. I hate celtic and rangers but I never got the unnecessary hate towards neil lennon. is it just a spite thing which stems from the core of old firm supporters?

Chucky the tree

Gringo180 wrote: »

Exactly, iirc he was in the same predictiment last season and done well in there last few games and ended up finishing 11th. Punching above there weight with that lge position.

They were safe early enough last season. The game that clinched it really was beating Reading, who were useless. They went on a great run from October to December, then nose dived.

rosskind

I can understand why outsiders may dislike or underrated Lennon. A bit like Gary Neville in that I thought he'd just be a hothead but is actually very intelligent and has done a good job, even taking into account the lack of competition in the league. I think he'll do a good job wherever he goes, although agreed Southampton should and will aim higher. Newcastle's probably the best he would hope for. After that, Norwich and West Brom (and all them kinda clubs) are all the same level really.

On Hughton, the timing of the sacking made it debatable but he can't have any complaints. Basically their decision was based on who had a better chance of beating Fulham the following week. Maybe he would've won, maybe he would've kept them up, we'll never know. But (imo anyway) his performances were over-hyped because he's a really nice guy. Not convinced about him.

Larsson odds on is crazy. Legend at the club no doubt but no evidence he'll be a good manager.

Francie Barrett

I can see why he left. When you look at the growing gap between Celtic and the top European teams, it's clear that Celtic are struggling. The fact that Lennon got Celtic to the quarter finals (x2) and the last 16 of the Champions League with what's barely a team of Premier League standard should tell you how well he has done.

To give you some perspective on things, Manchester City have spent about 10 times as much money and they have only made the last 16 once in the last three years. If Lennon is a failure - what does that make Mancini and Pellegrini?

I am pie

I suppose the difference between Pochettino and Lennon is that Pochettino plays much more sophisticated and intelligent football than Lennon's teams have displayed.

Celtic are shoe ins for the league, it's not much of a challenge for them, it's naive to pretend the Scottish league no longer has effective opposition for Celtic despite the ambitions of some of the smaller clubs. In this context he had ample opportunity to develop a really progressive football team and really drive on Scottish (even arguably Irish)football by developing great youth prospects given their dominant appeal to all but the odd sectarian head the ball who wouldnt go over to play for them.

I don't see it, i don't see a particularly interesting or progressive style of football, his so called "crown jewels" (Hooper and Kanwamya) have had very limited impact.

I actually think Celtic have an opportunity now to build something much more interesting, hopefully they bring in a coach who wants to play attractive attacking football in a more sophisticated way than Lennon's workaday high pressure high intensity teams did.

Chucky the tree

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Yea. New manager(well mainly getting rid of the old one) can boast morale for a short time so worth a shot. If you think the current manager is going to get you relegated, why stick with him? If I was owner of Norwich at that time I would have not had any confidene in Hughton turning it around..

This is so flawed plenty of teams have proven that they have stuck by there manager and survived. This was a relegation battle, it was never going to be easy.
You saying getting a new manager can boast morale? Norwich have yet announce one.

death1234567

BMMachine wrote: »

is it just a spite thing which stems from the core of old firm supporters?

No. I can't imagine how anyone would consider him anything other than an angry unlikeable little <blank>. There are plenty of examples of his childish, boorish, idiotic behaviour over the years that I can't be bothered to cite.

dundalkfc10

death1234567 wrote: »

No. I can't imagine how anyone would consider him anything other than an angry unlikeable little <blank>. There are plenty of examples of his childish, boorish, idiotic behaviour over the years that I can't be bothered to cite.

He seems a lovely man TBH

Lennonist

death1234567 wrote: »

No. I can't imagine how anyone would consider him anything other than an angry unlikeable little <blank>. There are plenty of examples of his childish, boorish, idiotic behaviour over the years that I can't be bothered to cite.

So you can't come up with even one:pac:. must try harder

5ForKeeps

As for Lennon, he is going out of his comfort zone. Don't really rate him as a manager personally, his tactical nous is a lot to be desired, some of the defeats he had in his time domestically and in Europe but he has to test himself somewhere else. There is only so far he could take Celtic like the new manager will eventually find out and Gordon Strachan and Martin O'Neill all found out.

Chucky the tree

M!Ck^ wrote: »

This is so flawed plenty of teams have proven that they have stuck by there manager and survived. This was a relegation battle, it was never going to be easy.
You saying getting a new manager can boast morale? Norwich have yet announce one.

And plenty have sacked one and survived. I actually said getting of the current one is what mainly boosts morale.

Chucky the tree

Chucky the tree wrote: »

And plenty have sacked one and survived. I actually said getting of the current one is what mainly boosts morale.

No point in debating further me thinks, agree to disagree on this

dundalkfc10

First Champions League proper away win.
Record points in a UCL group stage.
Record points in a EL group stage.
3 Titles in-a-row. (4th manager to do so)
Joint 6th with most trophies.
Financially successful.
Europe (only behind in 5/24 UCL at half-time)
Braved death threats/assault to manage the club.

dundalkfc10

First Champions League proper away win.
Record points in a UCL group stage.
Record points in a EL group stage.
3 Titles in-a-row. (4th manager to do so)
Joint 6th with most trophies.
Financially successful.
Europe (only behind in 5/24 UCL at half-time)
Braved death threats/assault to manage the club.

COYVB

rosskind wrote: »

I can understand why outsiders may dislike or underrated Lennon. A bit like Gary Neville in that I thought he'd just be a hothead but is actually very intelligent and has done a good job, even taking into account the lack of competition in the league. I think he'll do a good job wherever he goes, although agreed Southampton should and will aim higher. Newcastle's probably the best he would hope for. After that, Norwich and West Brom (and all them kinda clubs) are all the same level really.

On Hughton, the timing of the sacking made it debatable but he can't have any complaints. Basically their decision was based on who had a better chance of beating Fulham the following week. Maybe he would've won, maybe he would've kept them up, we'll never know. But (imo anyway) his performances were over-hyped because he's a really nice guy. Not convinced about him.

Larsson odds on is crazy. Legend at the club no doubt but no evidence he'll be a good manager.

Does Larsson need to be a good manager though? It'll be a one team league for another season at the very least so he'll have plenty of bedding in time

Paully D

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

Europe (only behind in 5/24 UCL at half-time)

That's scraping the barrel a bit to be honest. If only results at half time counted Fulham would have stayed up and West Brom would have gone down this season. Completely pointless statistic.

rosskind

COYVB wrote: »

Does Larsson need to be a good manager though? It'll be a one tan league for another season at the very least so he'll have plenty of bedding in time

Of course he does. Why wouldn't the club strive to get the best manager possible? It's just a pretty basic concept in football (and in life).

The_Kew_Tour

After Hibs winning last night Lennon was scared of the Hibs machine next season.

Jelle1880

rosskind wrote: »

Of course he does. Why wouldn't the club strive to get the best manager possible? It's just a pretty basic concept in football (and in life).

Because it's quite clear they don't want to pay for the best manager possible ?

If they don't want to give Lennon the money he needs/wants then I think better managers will definitely be out of the question.

Dempsey

There was/is noone better than Lennon to lead the club forward.

There will be a firesale this summer and Lennon rather avoid the backlash as if he stays on then he's complicit in Lawwells plans.

ciaranmac

Chucky the tree wrote: »

He needed 5 points from Fulham, Liverpool, Chelsea, United and Arsenal. Very unlikely to achieve that.

Sunderland's run in was equally tough, they were actually in the relegation zone and keeping faith with Poyet worked well for them. We won't know how Norwich would have done if they kept Hughton. A lot of knee-jerk sackings happen when clubs are fighting relegation. "Something must be done, this is something, therefore it must be done." And then the board can justify themselves either way, if they stay up they take the credit for being decisive and if they go down they blame the manager they sacked.

Super-Rush

He'll be the Leicester manager by the end of September.

Paully D

ciaranmac wrote: »

Sunderland's run in was equally tough, they were actually in the relegation zone and keeping faith with Poyet worked well for them. We won't know how Norwich would have done if they kept Hughton. A lot of knee-jerk sackings happen when clubs are fighting relegation. "Something must be done, this is something, therefore it must be done." And then the board can justify themselves either way, if they stay up they take the credit for being decisive and if they go down they blame the manager they sacked.

That ignores the fact that Sunderland had actually sacked their initial manager for the 2013/2014 season months previously though, 5 games in to be precise. That's as knee-jerk (albeit a very correct decision) as it comes. Other teams essentially had an 8 game head start, it would have been a shocking decision to sack Poyet even if we had gone down given that he had a) been left with a complete mess and b) had done a lot to improve it despite not moving out of the relegation until late in the day. Overall, Poyet's 1.22 points per game since he took over (Hugton's was 0.96 per game that season at the point he was dismissed) would have had Sunderland in 11th place over the course of 38 games. Ultimately, Sunderland displayed close to top half form during his reign despite the mess he inherited.

Hugton's points per game, if it had continued (and 33 games, 86% of a season, is a decent enough sample size), would have resulted in 36 points. It's extremely unlikely he would have even got that many given the fixtures, but if he had they would have stayed up on goal difference. It was worth a go getting rid and hoping for a new manager bounce for a couple of weeks IMO. I'm not sure where he'd have found what turned out to be 4 points needed from Fulham (A), Liverpool (H), Chelsea (A) and Arsenal (H).

8 managers (not including Moyes) were sacked this season, five bettered their predecessors total and one equaled it (per an article on FTB Pro by Graham Matthews). Most of the sackings weren't knee-jerk at all and resulted in better performance. Mel and Solksjaer are the only two you could really say, based on points per game totals, that didn't work.

COYVB

rosskind wrote: »

Of course he does. Why wouldn't the club strive to get the best manager possible? It's just a pretty basic concept in football (and in life).

You miss my point. I'm saying that Larsson has zero experience right now, but given the lack of competition in the league, he'll have (at least) a full season to figure out the job without any major worries of not winning the league. There are practically no jobs in top flight leagues anywhere else in the world where a brand new manager could come in and learn in that kind of environment.

That's why, IMO, Larsson might not be a good shout. Obviously it'd be entirely dependent on the Celtic board speaking to the guy and figuring out if he actually knows what he's at on paper. If he ticked those boxes, had good ideas and was willing to work within the allotted budget, then he'd likely be a good option.

If it doesn't work out, what's the worst that could happen? Celtic win the league and don't go too far in Europe? Sure that's almost par for the course anyway.

It would also mean that the "best possible" manager approach could be taken next year instead, when the "best possible" manager might actually be needed.

Who knows, though, that man could well be Larsson with 12 months' experience under his belt in a competition-free environment

rosskind

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Because it's quite clear they don't want to pay for the best manager possible ?

If they don't want to give Lennon the money he needs/wants then I think better managers will definitely be out of the question.

When I say possible, I mean a manager that is possible within the club's budget constraints and matches the boards ambitions. Obviously Lennon isn't possible because doesn't fit the latter. I'm on Lennon's side here, but that's a different debate. What you or I see possible might differ from what the board sees possible, but the point stands; why settle for less?

Lucas Hood

Not going Norwich anyway .Neil Adams has been given a 3 year deal.

Dempsey

He couldnt be taking up another job whilst advising Celtic on who to replace him with! :pac:

rosskind

@COYVB

Your first paragraph applies to everyone; you, me, Moyes at United, every possible candidate for Celtic. Time and experience will help you learn, but it doesn't magically make you a better manager. Would Moyes ever have become as good as Fergie or Van Gaal? The evidence suggested not, so they sacked him. Similarly, most of the candidates for the Celtic job are better qualified and have proven themselves more as a manager than Larsson. To ignore that is perverse.

Infact, the rest of your post (He'll probably win the league. We can always sack him. He might turn out to be the right man.) applies to everyone too. You're painting it black and white between good and bad when it's not. Celtic made a lot of progress under Lennon. You mustn't be a Celtic supporter as the words Tony Mowbray would answer your "What's the worst that can happen?" question.

Dempsey

Lennon's inexperience showed the first 2 seasons in charge but his potential was evident.

Experience isnt essential imo, knowledge of the club & league with a track record of bringing youth players to first team regulars is what I want to see. I dont want a manager that wants to spend good money on squad/back up players and let youth/reserve players rot. Celtic needs a manager that will bring a cultural shift to the club in that regard.

COYVB

Paul lambert might be looking for a job soon.