Decline in standard of UCD's incoming class

errlloyd

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

Median ≥400 (%) ≥500 (%)
2000 300 24.8 5.7
2013 335 43.4 9.7
% Increase 12 75 70

I'm curious as to why you keep using Medians when we're interested in Averages? Sure the Median is 335 but the average is 285. You're commenting that UCD's average stays the same while demonstrating a change in the Median is a bit irrelevant?

Calculating averages based on the statistics provided by the CAO is difficult because while they give you the percentage of students who achieved everything in 10 point brackets for 100-600, the bottom 100 are just that. So we'd be guessing what sort of points they added.

Also don't 2013 statistics include an extra 25 points for everyone who did higher level maths?

Why aren't you using 2007 statistics so that it correlates will all the other information we have?

Mr Pseudonym

errlloyd wrote: »

I'm curious as to why you keep using Medians when we're interested in Averages? Sure the Median is 335 but the average is 285. You're commenting that UCD's average stays the same while demonstrating a change in the Median is a bit irrelevant?

Calculating averages based on the statistics provided by the CAO is difficult because while they give you the percentage of students who achieved everything in 10 point brackets for 100-600, the bottom 100 are just that. So we'd be guessing what sort of points they added.

Also don't 2013 statistics include an extra 25 points for everyone who did higher level maths?

Why aren't you using 2007 statistics so that it correlates will all the other information we have?

You seem to come awake after midnight!

Median's all I got, man: data releases by Irish institutions are generally diabolical. The assumption is that if the median is increasing, so to is the mean. I can't think of any reason why that wouldn't be valid. Can't see the relevance of the sub-100 category.

The stats don't include Bonus points. I made that table a few months ago; do you think the trend wouldn't be replicated there?

errlloyd

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

You seem to come awake after midnight!

Median's all I got, man: data releases by Irish institutions are generally diabolical. The assumption is that if the median is increasing, so to is the mean. I can't think of any reason why that wouldn't be valid. Can't see the relevance of the sub-100 category.

The stats don't include Bonus points. I made that table a few months ago; do you think the trend wouldn't be replicated there?

The sub 100 problem prevents me from using CAO's data to create useful averages. Reading that the average is 285 and glancing at it makes me feel that a lot of those sub 100 students are getting very low points, but without knowing for sure I wouldn't be able to make anything meaningful out of it.

Anyway Medians? What relationship do you think a 70% increase in the amount of students scoring 400 or over has to the average result of students? I'm just curious here. The vast majority of those 70% of students are students moving from 395 to 400. I think you've presented the statistics as if there is a much bigger difference between 1999 and 2013 than there actually is.

Mr Pseudonym

errlloyd wrote: »

The sub 100 problem prevents me from using CAO's data to create useful averages. Reading that the average is 285 and glancing at it makes me feel that a lot of those sub 100 students are getting very low points, but without knowing for sure I wouldn't be able to make anything meaningful out of it.

Anyway Medians? What relationship do you think a 70% increase in the amount of students scoring 400 or over has to the average result of students? I'm just curious here. The vast majority of those 70% of students are students moving from 395 to 400. I think you've presented the statistics as if there is a much bigger difference between 1999 and 2013 than there actually is.

Where did you read that 285 is the mean?

My head hurts, so I can't bring it to answer what the expected increase would be. Suffice to say, though, there is an increase.

No - the increase occurs equally across the whole band - iirc, the % increase of 400-450 is exactly the same as % increase of 450-500.

errlloyd

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

Where did you read that 285 is the mean?

My head hurts, so I can't bring it to answer what the expected increase would be. Suffice to say, though, there is an increase.

No - the increase occurs equally across the whole band - iirc, the % increase of 400-450 is exactly the same as % increase of 450-500.

I read it on the IT results day Q&A blog or something, I acually thought I linked it earlier in the thread, but I didn't and I closed the tab now, seemed a bit low to me, I know in class of 09 I remember hearing it was 310 - so really I don't know.

In summary, I'd be worried if I felt there was a massive decline in the average CAO points of incoming students, even though I think UCD under Hugh Brady was quite successful in attracting significant amounts of high level international students.

But as I said before, my main concern isn't the declining standard of applicants, but the declining standard of University funding in Ireland.

Mr Pseudonym

errlloyd wrote: »

I read it on the IT results day Q&A blog or something, I acually thought I linked it earlier in the thread, but I didn't and I closed the tab now, seemed a bit low to me, I know in class of 09 I remember hearing it was 310 - so really I don't know.

In summary, I'd be worried if I felt there was a massive decline in the average CAO points of incoming students, even though I think UCD under Hugh Brady was quite successful in attracting significant amounts of high level international students.

But as I said before, my main concern isn't the declining standard of applicants, but the declining standard of University funding in Ireland.

I'm inclined to think it's not correct.

Did someone say reintroduction of fees?!

Did someone say bed?! I'm going, Mum, I'm going.

Powerhouse

steddyeddy wrote: »

Because they are apples and oranges. Learning facts and research do not go hand in hand.

I think it is fairer to say that learning facts and research do not necessarily to hand in hand. Certainly there is no obvious direct correlation but in practice I wonder.

In my experience as a teacher the best students to 'learn facts' are also the brightest, most hard-working and adaptable in their thinking. I would be surprised if the academic pecking order of the average LC group was very much different at third-level.

Mr Pseudonym

Powerhouse wrote: »

I would be surprised if the academic pecking order of the average LC group was very much different at third-level.

Especially the higher the points achieved.

OneOfThem Stumbled

Who the hell cares about Leaving Cert points? (with the exception of Accenture of course) It's just the currency in the supply-and-demand that is the CAO system. And, just like in any market, the price is a very loose guideline for value, as is the wealth of the purchaser an indicator of their suitability for the product.

Mr Pseudonym

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

Who the hell cares about Leaving Cert points? (with the exception of Accenture of course) It's just the currency in the supply-and-demand that is the CAO system. And, just like in any market, the price is a very loose guideline for value, as is the wealth of the purchaser an indicator of their suitability for the product.

My prose used to resemble yours, but I've since grown up.

Well, for a period of about two years, almost every LC student does. It is almost certainly the case that, in general, the "wealthier" one is the more suited to academics they'll be. That said, the CAO is a pretty woeful allocator of places.

Kiltennel

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

Who the hell cares about Leaving Cert points? (with the exception of Accenture of course) It's just the currency in the supply-and-demand that is the CAO system. And, just like in any market, the price is a very loose guideline for value, as is the wealth of the purchaser an indicator of their suitability for the product.

People can argue the LC rewards nothing but rote learning, but the keyword forgotten here is "learning". Whether it rewards critical thinking or not can be put aside for the moment. It rewards hard work and that is why you'll often see the "wealthier" LC students doing very well in university also, as their work ethic still leads to good results despite the difference in style of education.

A family friend is heavily involved in Big 4 recruiting and he says they place quite an emphasis on the LC as it is often a good demonstration of the candidate's work ethic while it examines all students on a common ground rather than the differing standards of individual universities.

literatefarmer

As a current UCD student I would see a decline in intellectual curiosity as being far more worrying than a drop in standards per se, though anyone doing Irish would notice a huge drop in the standard of the average student since the introduction of the 40% LC oral.

aine92

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

So, you are contending that there is no correlation between LC performance and degree success?

I just finished Neuroscience in UCD- entry points were 510+ the year I went in and a lot of my class dropped out along the way. Sometimes courses just don't suit you; getting 600 points in your leaving cert =/= 4.2 GPA!

paulo6891

aine92 wrote: »

getting 600 points in your leaving cert =/= 4.2 GPA!

"!="

aine92

paulo6891 wrote: »

"!="

My own point proven by way of myself as an example

steddyeddy

paulo6891 wrote: »

"!="

That's knowledge not intelligence dude.

paulo6891

Steady there Eddy, it was a joke - I thought it was quite funny . I'm not calling anyone unintelligent, surely you saw the irony?! Aine did anyway...

Although I don't know if one can define knowledge and intelligence to be mutually exclusive...

Raspberry Fileds

steddyeddy wrote: »

Mr. P why are you correlating leaving cert with standard? Leaving cert is a memory test.

Quoting a paper which refers to Points and Performance in Higher Education: A Study of the Predictive Validity of the Points System: "Research carried out on behalf of the Points Commission in the late 1990s, showed that there was a clear relationship between Leaving Certificate attainment and performance in higher education. In general, students with high points tended to obtain higher grades on graduation."

Durz0 Blint

I feel a bit weird saying it but I wish some of my courses were harder and pushed me a little more. Maybe that would weed out some of the slackers in the humanities and help it get back the respect it deserves. There's no reason the courses can't be as difficult as any other subject - just alter the examinations and expect more of the students.

Not to sound elitist or anything but some of the work ethic from students around here is appalling (Admittedly I am a returning student and my work ethic was just as bad the first time around though).

Although it's only a single example and doesn't reflect the general trend, I only got 365 points in the leaving cert, but my college GPA is 4.12, so it is possible for students to change - although I wouldn't be surprised if most mature students perform above average in their subject..

Raspberry Fileds

Durz0 Blint wrote: »

I feel a bit weird saying it but I wish some of my courses were harder and pushed me a little more. Maybe that would weed out some of the slackers in the humanities and help it get back the respect it deserves. There's no reason the courses can't be as difficult as any other subject - just alter the examinations and expect more of the students.

Not to sound elitist or anything but some of the work ethic from students around here is appalling (Admittedly I am a returning student and my work ethic was just as bad the first time around though).

Admittedly it's only my own example and doesn't reflect the general trend, but I only got 365 points in the leaving cert, but my college GPA is 4.12, so it is possible for students to change.

Friend of mine just finished first year of an Arts subject in Oxford. She had to write three 2000-word essays every fortnight. By contrast, in first year of an equivalent degree, I had twenty-four weeks to write five! Full disclosure: I also had stuff like group projects and term tests which she didn't. Because the spread of standards in Irish universities is much greater than in the best British universities, courses will inevitably not be as testing.