is being vegetarian bad?

burtslimpslon

I was reading something about vegetarian pros and cons, and i found this. Surely this cant be right?



"Not a single bite of food reaches our mouths that has not involved the killing of animals. By some estimates, at least 300 animals per acre—including mice, rats, moles, groundhogs and birds—are killed for the production of vegetable and grain foods, often in gruesome ways. Only one animal per acre is killed for the production of grass-fed beef and no animal is killed for the production of grass-fed milk until the end of the life of the dairy cow.

And what about the human beings, especially growing human beings, who are suffering from nutrient deficiencies and their concomitant health problems as a consequence of a vegetarian diet? Or does only animal suffering count?...

Vegetarians wishing to make a political statement should strive for consistency. Cows are slaughtered not only to put steak on the table, but to obtain components used in soaps, shampoos, cosmetics, plastics, pharmaceuticals, waxes (as in candles and crayons), modern building materials and hydraulic brake fluid for airplanes. The membrane that vibrates in your telephone contains beef gelatin. So to avoid hypocrisy, vegetarians need to also refrain from using anything made of plastic, talking on the telephone, flying in airplanes, letting their kids use crayons, and living or working in modern buildings.

The ancestors of modern vegetarians would not have survived without using animal products like fur to keep warm, leather to make footwear, belts, straps and shelter, and bones for tools. In fact, the entire interactive network of life on earth, from the jellyfish to the judge, is based on the sacrifice of animals and the use of animal foods. There’s no escape from dependence on slaughtered animals, not even for really good vegan folks who feel wonderful about themselves as they finish their vegan meal...

Going vegetarian is very difficult. The body needs animal foods and provides a powerful drive to eat them. Cravings and resentment are a natural byproduct of a vegetarian diet, not to mention separation from the the majority of humankind by unnatural eating habits and sense of moral rectitude."

--LOS--

Just a word of advice, you should at least read the FAQ and linked to wherever you found this. Knowingly posting a very large, controversial quote comes off a bit lazy and offensive. That may not have been your intention, I'll give you the benefit of a doubt. I've tried to answer as best I can.

Not a single bite of food reaches our mouths that has not involved the killing of animals. By some estimates, at least 300 animals per acre—including mice, rats, moles, groundhogs and birds—are killed for the production of vegetable and grain foods, often in gruesome ways. Only one animal per acre is killed for the production of grass-fed beef and no animal is killed for the production of grass-fed milk until the end of the life of the dairy cow.

Ok so what is being suggested here is that more animals are being killed through consumption of plants than consumption of animals. That is an absolute impossibility. Firstly, because animals consume plants too. We are feeding grain to animals so that we can then eat the animals in the form of meat, dairy and eggs. In fact we are wasting a crazy amount of grain through animal consumption. Most of the grain we grow is fed to animals, in the US 70% of grain grown is consumed by factory-farmed animals. So we are wasting food (grain) in order to produce food (meat, dairy, eggs). And in a really big way too, it takes about 13lbs of grain to produce 1lb of meat! So this is illogical. It's like this middle-man scenario, the animal is in the middle, we want to eat the animal, but in order to do that we have to waste all this food first in order to feed the animal. It's like as if a business was always operating at a loss instead of a profit. We're putting 13lbs in and we're getting 1lb out, it's beyond illogical. So we actually consume more plants through animal consumption than through veganism/vegetarianism, a lot more. So if you are concerned about the accidental killing of insects, rodents, snakes etc through harvesting of plants, then you should be especially concerned about animal consumption, since that is what is using the most plants, therefore animal agriculture is causing more accidental deaths.

Accidental deaths are one thing, now add to that 150 BILLION land and water animals that are murdered every year through factory farming. Number of animals per acre is a very strange measure, and I generally only come across that when statistics are being manipulated to suit a desired result. You can fit more insects in an acre than you can fit cows, well I didn't need anyone to tell me that. That's about as meaningful as that statistic is! What is important is number of animals consumed per person. And obviously, the less meat/dairy/eggs you eat, the less animals that are murdered.

Now the bit in bold is a particularly huge simplification. That's because it's not taking into account the dairy cows calves that are stolen and either killed straight away, kept alive in horrendous conditions for a brief while before being killed for veal, or depending on their gender and breed, raised for beef where they're also killed. So that is a whole lot of killing surrounding just dairy. And that's without discussing the level of cruelty involved in dairy, you can read more about that here. That is why it's said that there is more cruelty in a glass of milk than a steak.

And what about the human beings, especially growing human beings, who are suffering from nutrient deficiencies and their concomitant health problems as a consequence of a vegetarian diet? Or does only animal suffering count?...

Nutrient deficiencies, health problems? I don't think so! That's just more misinformation, being vegan/veggie is much healthier because animal consumption is associated with trans fats, diseases, we are consuming animals that have diseases that transmit to humans. There are now CONCLUSIVE links between animal protein and cancers, heart disease, diabetes etc. There are an abundance of scientific papers out there on that, if you look. But, on top of that, not only do people thrive on a plant-based diet but it has bonus health benefits, a plant-based diet has been shown to actually reverse the diseases above! And no of course we're not just biased towards animals. If you read the FAQ you can see why it is the best action we can take towards feeding the world.

Vegetarians wishing to make a political statement should strive for consistency. Cows are slaughtered not only to put steak on the table, but to obtain components used in soaps, shampoos, cosmetics, plastics, pharmaceuticals, waxes (as in candles and crayons), modern building materials and hydraulic brake fluid for airplanes. The membrane that vibrates in your telephone contains beef gelatin. So to avoid hypocrisy, vegetarians need to also refrain from using anything made of plastic, talking on the telephone, flying in airplanes, letting their kids use crayons, and living or working in modern buildings.

Yes of course vegetarians and vegans are more aware than anyone that it is not just about diet. Just eating vegetarian or vegan does not make you one! It's about eliminating all animal products insofar as is possible. So we also typically avoid animal-based clothing; silk, wool, fur, leather etc, and products like toiletries or cleaning products that contain animal-derived ingredients, anything at all, you name it, we've thought about it. But it's also about excluding cruelty as far as possible and practicable. The definition of veganism is not you must live in the woods naked devoid of anything which makes your life worth living and be a perfect person. It's about doing as much as we can, just cutting back at all is huge in terms of reducing killing, supporting environmentalism and sustainability. It's nonsense to say that given the choice of purposely killing a ton of animals, versus killing no animals, that we should purposely kill a ton of animals because there will always be some that we accidentally kill. You wouldn't apply that logic to humans so that argument has no place here either. These are how I use those things listed.....

soaps - vegan
shampoos - vegan
cosmetics - vegan
plastics - not practicable, the animal link here is negligible anyway so it's a non-issue. I do however further avoid and cut down on plastic because of environmental concerns.
pharmaceuticals -vegan
waxes (as in candles and crayons) - vegan
modern building materials -not practicable
hydraulic brake fluid for airplanes - not practicable
telephone - not practicable

Some people, who will make any excuse to murder an innocent animal that does not want to be slaughtered, will say that there is no such thing as vegan. Firstly would I really care about anything a person so devoid of empathy could say. And secondly those people clearly misunderstand it because it is not about being perfect.

The ancestors of modern vegetarians would not have survived without using animal products like fur to keep warm, leather to make footwear, belts, straps and shelter, and bones for tools. In fact, the entire interactive network of life on earth, from the jellyfish to the judge, is based on the sacrifice of animals and the use of animal foods. There’s no escape from dependence on slaughtered animals, not even for really good vegan folks who feel wonderful about themselves as they finish their vegan meal...

Well our ancestors were vegan so.......
We only started to consume animals because the ice age wiped out a lot of the plant-life, so we started to kill animals purely for survival. After the ice age was over we should have stopped but we got used to it by then. The same with fur etc, there is needing something, and there is wanting something. We certainly do not need to consume animal products for any purpose anymore, nor for a long long time, only it became part of our culture, and cultural patterns are hard to break. The rest of that insulting nonsense paragraph I'm not even going to entertain.

Going vegetarian is very difficult. The body needs animal foods and provides a powerful drive to eat them. Cravings and resentment are a natural byproduct of a vegetarian diet, not to mention separation from the the majority of humankind by unnatural eating habits and sense of moral rectitude.

ummm nope it's pretty easy and I'm vegan.
Nope the body does not need anything animal-based. The rest of that is utter drivel. Separation from the majority of human-kind, sense of moral rectitude, wow those sound like some great ethics to live up to. Yes we are a minority, yes a lot of people don't accept us, yes we are oppressed in a way. And? what about the animals, they are the most oppressed of all.

Tar.Aldarion

Post deleted. If you think somebody is trolling please report it, don't post about it, and we can look at the case. It may be the person is new to these thoughts and is genuine, further comments by them would tell. Also if it is not the case that they are genuine we can deal with it then and any answers by the community will help genuine people looking in the future. After all we all knew very little at one stage.

burtslimpslon, welcome to the forum, we hope you learn and enjoy your stay, however this is not the correct way to go about making a thread. We will let this go for once with a warning but in future a quote is not sufficient, you must give your own opinion and thoughts on a subject or threads will be locked.

burtslimpslon

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Post deleted. If you think somebody is trolling please report it, don't post about it, and we can look at the case. It may be the person is new to these thoughts and is genuine, further comments by them would tell. Also if it is not the case that they are genuine we can deal with it then and any answers by the community will help genuine people looking in the future. After all we all knew very little at one stage.

burtslimpslon, welcome to the forum, we hope you learn and enjoy your stay, however this is not the correct way to go about making a thread. We will let this go for once with a warning but in future a quote is not sufficient, you must give your own opinion and thoughts on a subject or threads will be locked.

thanks LOS for the reply and i just came across piece that i quoted on the internet and and i don't know enough about the matter to know weather that is the truth, i have always considered being a vegetarian but i amn't allowed until im 18 (15 at the moment). I have never learned about vegetarian/vegan life in school or anything so i went to look on the internet and found that piece i quoted. And trust me i had originally thought that piece was rubbish but as i said i dont know enough about the topic. Sorry if im causing trouble, i just wanted clarification that that piece was not factual.

--LOS--

burtslimpslon wrote: »

thanks LOS for the reply and i just came across piece that i quoted on the internet and and i don't know enough about the matter to know weather that is the truth, i have always considered being a vegetarian but i amn't allowed until im 18 (15 at the moment). I have never learned about vegetarian/vegan life in school or anything so i went to look on the internet and found that piece i quoted. And trust me i had originally thought that piece was rubbish but as i said i dont know enough about the topic. Sorry if im causing trouble, i just wanted clarification that that piece was not factual.

That's no problem and that is exactly what I thought you intended. And if I sounded harsh in my reply it was only because I found that piece to be very anti-vegetarian. And I know those aren't your words so I hope you don't take offence to that either. But it's only when you do know about all these things, that you could recognise how anti-vegetarian that quote was. But to you or anyone else that isn't informed yet, those could be genuine questions you might have. But the truth is that piece is full of misinformation like you thought. The thing is that there is no good reason for not being vegetarian or vegan. Maybe some reasons would be it's a slight inconvenience. Other reasons, meat tastes good to a lot of people. Beyond this I can't think of any good reasons against vegetarianism or veganism. I know that sounds biased coming from me, but it's something I put a lot of research and thought into. Why are most people not vegetarian or vegan? Because they just have never even thought about it. I know it may sound very sort of obnoxious to say that going vegan is the best thing you can do for animals, people, your health, the environment and the planet as a whole. That sounds too unbelievable to people, but it is true, I wrote briefly about those different things in the FAQ, but there's lots of information out there on them too. I think probably the easiest way for you to get some information is just watching some films/videos, that's what I like to do.

There's some nice short youtube videos you can watch.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6_hjA4cdjM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7I0v3LhKhQg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EsC6UtBUbA

This guy Gary Yourofsky is an independent animals rights activist, his manner is quite full on but I think his speech covers a lot of stuff

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_K36Zu0pA4U

(and there's a Q & A vid after it)

Do be aware though there is some animal cruelty footage in there which you might not be ready to see yet, he gives you plenty of warning though when it's coming up.

He has a site that is quite extensive if you click around it.
http://www.adaptt.org/veganism.html

I quite like this site coz it's nice and simple.....

http://vegankit.com/

Vegetarians usually eat dairy and eggs and products containing those, while vegans don't, but aside from that fact, the information is the same whichever you may choose in the future. Do you use reddit at all, I find r/vegetarian and r/vegan very good on there.

Movies: Speciesism, Forks over Knives, Vegucated, Food Inc, Planeat.

Maybe other people have better links for other sites. Of course you can browse around the forum too.


What is it that makes you say you've thought about becoming veggie? I'm guessing you've mentioned it to your parents, what is it they have concerns about? And it doesn't have to be something that you have to do all or nothing. Actually I think it can be easier to do it gradually, that's what I did. Just gradually cutting back, maybe you can have one vegetarian meal a day, or one day a week that you are vegetarian, maybe your parents would be more accepting of that, they could even join in on that. Maybe you could encourage them by learning to cook something simple for them. Do you think that could work? If you have any questions feel free to ask away.

burtslimpslon

--LOS-- wrote: »

What is it that makes you say you've thought about becoming veggie? I'm guessing you've mentioned it to your parents, what is it they have concerns about? And it doesn't have to be something that you have to do all or nothing. Actually I think it can be easier to do it gradually, that's what I did. Just gradually cutting back, maybe you can have one vegetarian meal a day, or one day a week that you are vegetarian, maybe your parents would be more accepting of that, they could even join in on that. Maybe you could encourage them by learning to cook something simple for them. Do you think that could work? If you have any questions feel free to ask away.

Thanks for that reply, it's really helpful with the videos :-) and I presume my parents just want to make sure I know what I'm doing etc etc so are making me wait until I'm 18. And thanks I'll definitly try it, and I've already done something similar I don't eat meat at lunch as I make my own each morning. Thanks again for your reply.

--LOS--

burtslimpslon wrote: »

Thanks for that reply, it's really helpful with the videos :-) and I presume my parents just want to make sure I know what I'm doing etc etc so are making me wait until I'm 18. And thanks I'll definitly try it, and I've already done something similar I don't eat meat at lunch as I make my own each morning. Thanks again for your reply.

Ye your parents are probably mostly concerned about health. "Forks over Knives" really goes into health a lot. A lot of us only went vegetarian or vegan after 18 too. I wasn't even considering it at your age so that's very admirable. While I know being veggie or vegan isn't damaging to your physical health if you are eating right, I will say it can have an affect on your mental health. Just because it's not easy when you're doing anything that most people are opposing, and being a bit younger, not having the support from your family and maybe people in school, and then coping with school work and exams, that can be quite impactful I'd imagine. So just take it easy, give yourself credit for the small changes you're already making. And remember you can come on here for support, you can drop into the grapevine and say hello or whatever or let us know how you're getting on.

Just Like Heaven

The whole attitude of that piece is frustrating. There's already animal products in crayons so we might as well eat animals rabble rabble.

By just doing what you can to buy vegan you make a huge difference, companies are receptive to it if the market is there. My nearest supermarket stocks about 15 varieties of dairy free alternative soy/almond/rice milks at this stage and not for the craic but because people are buying them. More clothing companies are beginning to take the steps to market their products animal free, years ago it was impossible to get hold of toiletries, belts, shoes etc. But it's easier than ever now because by just taking the steps to ensure those products are vegan friendly these companies are increasing marketability.

Tesco etc. notice these trends and will look to source more vegan products.

The consumer has more of an effect than they probably even realise because by buying vegan you're withdrawing your support for one company whilst increasing the demand for another.

--LOS--

Thread Locked now.

This is a discussion forum so you need to give your own opinion with your opening post.

This is also a supportive community for vegetarians and vegans so a more tactful thread title and post wouldn't go amiss.

Try to stick to these rules when posting or starting a thread on here.