7 dead in Californian Shooting

Dontfadeaway · 26-05-2014 4:38pm

psinno wrote: »

Does he say much about the guys he was living with?

He lived with a good few people, he either changed apartments or they left. I think he only liked 2 of them, but they moved out.

I was thinking the same about him listing all the names of people he knew, full names. :eek: I can't believe all the details he remembers from a young age, it's not just his friends full names he remembers, it's their moms and friends of friends.

sadie06 · 26-05-2014 5:34pm

God I wasn't for one second suggesting that people with Aspergers are more likely to commit crimes. If indeed he did have Aspergers as has been suggested (by the lawyer I think) I merely meant that it may have lead to him obsessing about the things he was clearly experiencing difficulty with.

He was seeing a therapist, I presume for mental health issues.

c0rk3r · 26-05-2014 5:37pm

Chattastrophe! wrote: »

Wouldn't you just hate to be one of the people named in it?

Yeah. I was thinking just that as i was reading through it. Then i facebook searched some of them and whaddya know, there they are. Its Pretty surreal. I love to know their impression of him.

On page 87 of 141.

Mars Bar · 26-05-2014 6:07pm

He had seen a few therapists from the age of 13. Numerous times he had broken down crying to the point where he had to ring his parents and tell them. He was probably more forward than most people would be to their parents.

I also facebook searched a few of the people named. I'm so damn nosey!

Manic Moran · 26-05-2014 6:12pm

Lou.m wrote: »

It's crazy.

Gun rights activists always seem so full of hate for no reason.

Is it paranoia if they really are out to get you?

Three different types of weapon were used in this attack. But the solution is apparently to go after the NRA because guns. And it -always- happens, can you blame the NRA for mounting a pre-emptive defense?

I go to CNN yesterday, and the front page has headlines including "O Mara: I'm a gun owner and I'm for gun control" and "Grieving dad: How long must this continue?" (Which when you click on the link, he blames the NRA). Not so much on "OK, why did he wake up one day, decide to go on a killing spree, and whip out his knife to kill his three room-mates before going to find other people to kill, and how could we have reduced the chances of that happening?".

carraig2 wrote: »

Sue them for not getting a warrant to search his apartment. He bragged online about them not finding his stash. Suing the NRA is stupid.

What, sue the police for failing to act? There have been extremely few successful court cases of that, even when the police have been given a very specific and viable threat. (Bottom line, police have no duty to protect any individual in any circumstance. This is common worldwide). Secondly, we have this little Constitutional Right called the 4th Amendment. One cannot just go 'get a warrant.' The police have to show probable cause that evidence of illegal activity is going to be found, and must specify on the application what sort of evidence they're looking for. "I want to go in, turn the place upside down, and see what I can find" is not sufficient. The police went, they saw no immediate threat or cause for concern, they leave. That's their job. If the parents really were worried about his future actions, they could have frog-marched their kid to a mental health professional, the people who -are- legally authorized to make statements such as "This guy should have his access to firearms revoked."

Lou.m wrote: »

No you would do what his own parents did ..which was call the police and report him.

They did this ...the police did nothing.

See above. They looked, they found someone who gave no indication of being a threat. They left. They had neither the time, nor the legal authority, to do anything more. A welfare check is just that. A courtesy check to see if he's alive and well? Police are not psychiatrists, if you're really worried about someone's mental health beyond the 'here and now', call a professional.

diveout · 26-05-2014 6:12pm

Mars Bar wrote: »

He had seen a few therapists from the age of 13. Numerous times he had broken down crying to the point where he had to ring his parents and tell them. He was probably more forward than most people would be to their parents.

I also facebook searched a few of the people named. I'm so damn nosey!

HE had top shrinks since he was 13. This is not about mental health. THis is about a culture that promotes narcissicm, victimhood, and entitlement to defcon 10 levels. And often rewards it.

Much much bigger problem than mental health assistance.

Dontfadeaway · 26-05-2014 6:25pm

Mars Bar wrote: »

He had seen a few therapists from the age of 13. Numerous times he had broken down crying to the point where he had to ring his parents and tell them. He was probably more forward than most people would be to their parents.

I also facebook searched a few of the people named. I'm so damn nosey!

:o:o:o:o

I did too.

Manic Moran · 26-05-2014 6:35pm

Personally I'm amazed that he was able to buy guns when he had a history of mental illness. Those laws need to be toughened up.

Define "History of mental illness" to a level which will revoke a right to firearms. Is Asperger's sufficient? Is even mild Asperger's sufficient? Any repeated treatment by a mental health professional, even if it's mild PTSD due to seeing your best friend killed in a nasty car accident? The laws already prohibit lawful firearms purchase by those deemed mentally incompetent to own them. Either the current system failed and no new laws are needed, or in the opinions of mental health professionals, the Asperger's was not likely to be related to this incident and his violence in which case maybe the psychiatrists need to re-evaluate their position.

bumper234 wrote: »

The lobbying power they have is scary, no way anything would ever be done about gun control simply because NO American party would risk losing the pro gun money or risk the wrath of them.

There's a reason for that. The NRA is, I believe, the second-largest political organization in terms of numbers of members in the US. (AARP is far and away the largest, while AAA and USAA, also larger organisations, don't do much lobbying). When you have millions of members, each of whom has a vote (And they're not the only lobby group on the issue, just the largest), then yes, you would expect them to have lobbying power.

Azwaldo55 · 26-05-2014 7:08pm

When Rodger was 13 he went from a kid who liked to play computer games and skateboard and had a few playdates into a totally isolated kid who couldn't socialize with boys his own age or interact with girls.
He first saw a porn movie when at a cyber cafe he frequented to play World of Warcraft and was repulsed by the sexual act.
He was left behind by friends who had hit puberty and were leaving childhood behind.
Rodger specifically blames one girl in particular named Monette Moio for his torment claiming she was was the ringleader of the kids who allegedly teased and bullied him.
Moio has since then grown up to be a stunningly beautiful model, aspiring actress and singer.
She is the archetypal pretty Californian blonde babe and unsurprisingly barely remembers him from more than 10 years ago even though she is singled out by Rodger as the girl who he claims made him hate women.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2639783/Father-childhood-pal-turned-model-virgin-killer-claimed-women-mean-cruel-heartless-creatures-says.html

Carlos Orange · 26-05-2014 7:45pm

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

Rodger specifically blames one girl in particular named Monette Moio for his torment claiming she was was the ringleader of the kids who allegedly teased and bullied him.

There is an interesting side of it about how honest a narrator he is for his life and whether what he says can be taken at face value. At the same time it wouldn't be surprising if someone who did bully him underplayed it. People take different meanings and intensities from interactions. One person may honestly think something was tiny and not even worth mentioning and it may still have been a pivotal moment in the others life.

auldgranny · 26-05-2014 11:59pm

Manic Moran you say the police cannot look for a warrant without just cause. A man's parents going to them and tellingv them he had psychiatric problems and had posted threats online would not seem like just cause enough to you?

auldgranny · 27-05-2014 12:01am

Manic Moran you say the police cannot look for a warrant without just cause. A man's parents going to them and tellingv them he had psychiatric problems and had posted threats online would not seem like just cause enough to you?

Manic Moran · 27-05-2014 3:27am

auldgranny wrote: »

Manic Moran you say the police cannot look for a warrant without just cause. A man's parents going to them and telling them he had psychiatric problems and had posted threats online would not seem like just cause enough to you?

No, it would not be.

There must be probable cause to indicate evidence of unlawfulness will be found at the scene in order to get a warrant. What had he done which was unlawful to that point in time?

The second reason to enter and search without a warrant is 'exigent circumstances.' But again, they did not apply here. There was no indication that anyone was under threat, and that the police had to violate the man's 4th amendment rights right then and there, even after the police chatted with him. Which, it turned out was correct, nothing happened for a month, there was no exigency.

Thirdly, just what are they going to look for? A gun? This is the US. Lots of people have guns. And even if they confiscated it (Which would raise its own set of interesting legal problems) that wouldn't have helped the first three victims who were stabbed. The manifesto? Sure, if you think the police are going to go searching through the guy's hard drive. Like they have time for that.

Firearms removal is covered under the California Welfare and Institutions Code, see section 8100. "A person shall not have in his or her possession or under his or her custody or control, or purchase or receive, or attempt to purchase or receive, any firearms whatsoever or any other deadly weapon for a period of five years if, on or after January 1, 2014, he or she communicates to a licensed psychotherapist, as defined in subdivisions (a) to (e), inclusive, of Section 1010 of the Evidence Code, a serious threat of physical violence against a reasonably identifiable victim or victims." If this is met, then the mental health professional is to communicate to the police that the man is now in the prohibited category for firearms ownership.

There are two requirements. 1) Did he communicate a threat to a psychotherapist? 2) Was that threat to a reasonably identifiable victim or victims. "Women", constituting about 30million people in California, really doesn't count, even if he did.

The alternative possibility, which many are relying upon in their theory that the police should have done something, is section 5150, involuntary hold for 72 hours for evaluation. Police officers, amongst others, may on their own make a decision that upon their observation, there is probable cause that the individual is a threat to himself or others. Note: His observation. There is nothing in the WIC which allows for the opinions of others to influence the peace officer's decision: He has to be able to back up his actions with his own observations.

The only other way that the police could have taken him in would be under 5200, judicial-ordered hold. That takes convincing the court that the individual is a threat, the judge would then order the detention of the individual regardless of the opinion of the peace officer who contacts that person. For whatever reason, that did not happen.

Frankly, I don't think anything was going to stop this guy from snapping and killing, except more effective treatment, which is really only obvious with hindsight.

Lou.m · 27-05-2014 3:42am

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

When Rodger was 13 he went from a kid who liked to play computer games and skateboard and had a few playdates into a totally isolated kid who couldn't socialize with boys his own age or interact with girls.
He first saw a porn movie when at a cyber cafe he frequented to play World of Warcraft and was repulsed by the sexual act.
He was left behind by friends who had hit puberty and were leaving childhood behind.
Rodger specifically blames one girl in particular named Monette Moio for his torment claiming she was was the ringleader of the kids who allegedly teased and bullied him.
Moio has since then grown up to be a stunningly beautiful model, aspiring actress and singer.
She is the archetypal pretty Californian blonde babe and unsurprisingly barely remembers him from more than 10 years ago even though she is singled out by Rodger as the girl who he claims made him hate women.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2639783/Father-childhood-pal-turned-model-virgin-killer-claimed-women-mean-cruel-heartless-creatures-says.html

Jesus i saw the pics of those young boys he killed his room mates..I HAD NO IDEA THEY WERE THAT YOUNG!!OMG

:(:(:(

Triggering major maternal instincts.

They are only babies those boys.

BABIES!

He murdered five men and two women then three in his apartment and himself....it makes sense they would be young people as he is their age. So sad.

The two girls seem so normal they could be your mates. Or a sister.

They keep going on about his being bullied. But his own account is just that people did not worship him.

I think he placed love on a pedestal. And saw himself beneath it. Instead of realizing everyone is equally worthy. He was very harsh on himself and others.

Also he might have been introduced to porn at too early an age when he wasn't ready and it upset him and made sexual relations harder. Men tend to think young men should be up for anything at a young age and that can be damaging to male children.

And they feel inadequate thinking they should be ready for this when that is not the case.

There needs to be a role model for young men that has their best interests at heart.

beks101 · 27-05-2014 5:40am

Pathetic. This whole sorry mess and the sorry state of this sick individual's head.

I've worked in big newsrooms across the world for years and no story even comes close to paralleling the frequency that these shootings by privileged/white guys in the US pop up and the extensive coverage that they get.

While mental illness is obviously at the root of it, there's just so many factors at play that it's hard to see how these kind of incidents will ever go away - from second amendment and gun ownership laws and attitudes to this 'celebrity' culture created around the asshats who perpetrate these crimes, to the narcissism and materialism and oneupmanship bred by facebook/online culture, on and on ad nauseum. Those seemingly harmless albeit annoying features can become dangerous among people like this most recent individual, who clearly had chronic social and interpersonal skills, a personality disorder and a propensity towards violence and anger...and then easy access to a bunch of lethal weapons.

I hate that this guy's innermost thoughts are blasted across the web for all and sundry to read and be influenced by. That he can name-drop a bunch of innocent people who are just going about their lives and all of a sudden they're the gaze of the internet and their lives are changed for the worse forever more. Not to mention his victims of course.

What made him think that his innermost thoughts and takes on the world were of any consequence or interest to the public in the first place is what's so wrong with this narcissistic-inspired celebrity culture around these mass murderers. Fcuk his manifesto. Fcuk 'learning a lesson' from this. How many more 'lessons' does America need to learn?

Not usually a Michael Moore fan but he pretty much sums this whole thing up for me -

With due respect to those who are asking me to comment on last night's tragic mass shooting at UCSB in Isla Vista, CA -- I no longer have anything to say about what is now part of normal American life. Everything I have to say about this, I said it 12 years ago: We are a people easily manipulated by fear which causes us to arm ourselves with a quarter BILLION guns in our homes that are often easily accessible to young people, burglars, the mentally ill and anyone who momentarily snaps. We are a nation founded in violence, grew our borders through violence, and allow men in power to use violence around the world to further our so-called American (corporate) "interests." The gun, not the eagle, is our true national symbol. While other countries have more violent pasts (Germany, Japan), more guns per capita in their homes (Canada [mostly hunting guns]), and the kids in most other countries watch the same violent movies and play the same violent video games that our kids play, no one even comes close to killing as many of its own citizens on a daily basis as we do -- and yet we don't seem to want to ask ourselves this simple question: "Why us? What is it about US?" Nearly all of our mass shootings are by angry or disturbed white males. None of them are committed by the majority gender, women. Hmmm, why is that? Even when 90% of the American public calls for stronger gun laws, Congress refuses -- and then we the people refuse to remove them from office. So the onus is on us, all of us. We won't pass the necessary laws, but more importantly we won't consider why this happens here all the time. When the NRA says, "Guns don't kill people -- people kill people," they've got it half-right. Except I would amend it to this: "Guns don't kill people -- Americans kill people." Enjoy the rest of your day, and rest assured this will all happen again very soon.

Wompa1 · 27-05-2014 6:41am

beks101 wrote: »

Pathetic. This whole sorry mess and the sorry state of this sick individual's head.

I've worked in big newsrooms across the world for years and no story even comes close to paralleling the frequency that these shootings by privileged/white guys in the US pop up and the extensive coverage that they get.

While mental illness is obviously at the root of it, there's just so many factors at play that it's hard to see how these kind of incidents will ever go away - from second amendment and gun ownership laws and attitudes to this 'celebrity' culture created around the asshats who perpetrate these crimes, to the narcissism and materialism and oneupmanship bred by facebook/online culture, on and on ad nauseum. Those seemingly harmless albeit annoying features can become dangerous among people like this most recent individual, who clearly had chronic social and interpersonal skills, a personality disorder and a propensity towards violence and anger...and then easy access to a bunch of lethal weapons.

I hate that this guy's innermost thoughts are blasted across the web for all and sundry to read and be influenced by. That he can name-drop a bunch of innocent people who are just going about their lives and all of a sudden they're the gaze of the internet and their lives are changed for the worse forever more. Not to mention his victims of course.

What made him think that his innermost thoughts and takes on the world were of any consequence or interest to the public in the first place is what's so wrong with this narcissistic-inspired celebrity culture around these mass murderers. Fcuk his manifesto. Fcuk 'learning a lesson' from this. How many more 'lessons' does America need to learn?

Not usually a Michael Moore fan but he pretty much sums this whole thing up for me -

It's bigger than that. It's an unjust society, people live day to day in a pressure cooker over here. You're expected to be at your employers beckon call, there's very few employees rights. Today was the first public holiday since Jan 1st. People in the service, retail and some other support jobs get paid so little that they need to work two jobs. The country is also over-prescribed medication, getting vicodin for a toothache is unacceptable but is the norm.

The tax system ensures that the wealthy live in areas where they pay the highest property taxes which go to their local schools, fire departments, police etc. ensuring only the best, if a homeless person wanders in they will quickly be arrested and move out. The poor then live in places that are under-funded and breed mediocrity. It doesn't help progress these people at all. Toss on top of all that the awful media putting what the 'American Dream' is meant to be, basically something which only 1% of people will attain. Advertisement, after advertisement of crap that people believe they need to consume to be happy.

And on top of that the news usually ends with a puff piece. A happy news story. Companies have policies about team building and try to weed out negativity. The Service industry is so intense that you'd think the waitress loves you and wants to suck your d1ck. When everybody is meant to be happy all the time and don't have a way to vent. That can get to a tipping point, also.

Then on top of all that, you give people guns.

Anachrony · 27-05-2014 7:48am

Wompa1 wrote: »

beckon call

Beck and call. Irrelevant, but hard to ignore.

Wompa1 wrote: »

Today was the first public holiday since Jan 1st.

Except Martin Luther King Day and Presidents Day. Two national holidays observed in most public and many private workplaces, between then and now. My office gets those and 8 others throughout the year. Plus another 3 weeks vacation time. 5 weeks total may be slightly less than is common in Ireland, but it's not nothing, and the pay is a lot better.

Wompa1 wrote: »

The country is also over-prescribed medication, getting vicodin for a toothache is unacceptable but is the norm.

Wouldn't know, as I've never had a toothache. The only time a dentist prescribed me Vicodin was when I had my Wisdom teeth removed. I ended up not filling the prescription, because I wasn't in pain. Didn't realize this should be one of the major concerns in my life.

Wompa1 wrote: »

The tax system ensures that the wealthy live in areas where they pay the highest property taxes which go to their local schools, fire departments, police etc. ensuring only the best,

A lot of that funding actually comes from taxes at the State level, and is distributed around the state according to need, not allocated in proportion to the amount of taxes collected regionally. Some even supplements state programs from sources at a federal level. Some property taxes are collected at a county level, but you'll find that very few entire counties are universally wealthy. This county is known as a wealthy area, but demographically, there is a full range of all income levels well represented.

The truly rich send their kids to private school anyway, not public schools in good neighborhoods. It's the middle class who send their kids to good public schools, money is not the only thing making those schools perform better, and they are rarely quite as exclusive as you suggest.

Wompa1 wrote: »

if a homeless person wanders in they will quickly be arrested and move out.

Complete fabrication. If anything, there are disproportionately more homeless people in wealthy areas. If you aren't paying anything to live there anyway, whats the downside? Better panhandling, more shelters and charities.

Wompa1 wrote: »

The poor then live in places that are under-funded and breed mediocrity.

If you look at the actual budgets, schools in poor neighborhoods of cities tend to have roughly as much funding per student as those in better neighborhoods. They perform much worse anyway. It's not solely a matter of funding. There is a cycle of poverty at work, but a lot of it is happening outside the classroom.

Wompa1 wrote: »

Advertisement, after advertisement of crap that people believe they need to consume to be happy.

As opposed to the rest of the Western world, which is totally different from that.

Based on your comments about TV news, perhaps you're talking about television ads. The secret is there isn't much reason to actually watch those. That might have been a good criticism 20 years ago, but when I watch broadcast television, I've been fast forwarding through those on my DVR for close to 15 years. A lot of the best shows are on premium channels like HBO, which doesn't have ads. Netflix and Amazon Prime don't have ads. Hulu has too many ads, and you can't fast forward them, I'll give you that. Not my first choice in how to view content.

Wompa1 wrote: »

And on top of that the news usually ends with a puff piece. A happy news story.

What century are you living in? Who watches television news? Grandparents, maybe. Except I know a lot of seniors who get their news online too. The old media is struggling to remain relevant.

Wompa1 wrote: »

Companies have policies about team building and try to weed out negativity.

Perhaps some do. Others have actual work to do. You'll find this is something that varies from company to company, and perhaps even to some extent from industry to industry, more than it does from country to country.

Wompa1 wrote: »

The Service industry is so intense that you'd think the waitress loves you and wants to suck your d1ck.

You mean they don't? I, for one, was genuinely fooled all this time. Thanks for the keen insight.

Wompa1 wrote: »

When everybody is meant to be happy all the time and don't have a way to vent. That can get to a tipping point, also.

So that's your explanation for all this? You've looked over this guy's manifesto and you think he just felt too much pressure to appear happy and not vent? I think he was living in a much different fantasy world than that, and his problems ran much deeper. It doesn't seem like he ever bothered to try to appear happy.

I think you're just trying to hijack this event to air your personal grievances which have little or nothing to do with anything that actually happened.

Manic Moran · 27-05-2014 8:36am

Anachrony wrote: »

Except Martin Luther King Day and Presidents Day. Two national holidays observed in most public and many private workplaces, between then and now. My office gets those and 8 others throughout the year. Plus another 3 weeks vacation time. 5 weeks total may be slightly less than is common in Ireland, but it's not nothing, and the pay is a lot better.

I was about to say... I had those two days off, as well as the other federal holidays http://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/snow-dismissal-procedures/federal-holidays/#url=2014. (Though, granted, wife didn't get President's Day for some reason). I also get just over 4 weeks' paid time off as well. I can't complain, it's not too bad.

Anachrony · 27-05-2014 8:50am

Manic Moran wrote: »

I had those two days off, as well as the other federal holidays http://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/snow-dismissal-procedures/federal-holidays/#url=2014.

My private sector employer gives most of those off, except we decided we'd rather have Christmas Eve than Columbus Day. Nobody actually celebrates Columbus Day, and there is a surplus of holidays that part of the year anyway.

TimeToShine · 27-05-2014 11:22am

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

When Rodger was 13 he went from a kid who liked to play computer games and skateboard and had a few playdates into a totally isolated kid who couldn't socialize with boys his own age or interact with girls.
He first saw a porn movie when at a cyber cafe he frequented to play World of Warcraft and was repulsed by the sexual act.
He was left behind by friends who had hit puberty and were leaving childhood behind.
Rodger specifically blames one girl in particular named Monette Moio for his torment claiming she was was the ringleader of the kids who allegedly teased and bullied him.
Moio has since then grown up to be a stunningly beautiful model, aspiring actress and singer.
She is the archetypal pretty Californian blonde babe and unsurprisingly barely remembers him from more than 10 years ago even though she is singled out by Rodger as the girl who he claims made him hate women.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2639783/Father-childhood-pal-turned-model-virgin-killer-claimed-women-mean-cruel-heartless-creatures-says.html

Probably the worst thing this girl could have said is that she "barely remembers him".

Babooshka · 27-05-2014 12:10pm

TimeToShine wrote: »

Probably the worst thing this girl could have said is that she "barely remembers him".

If he was alive to hear it he'd probably be even more rage filled but it's of no matter now, and she was right to tell it like it is.

jill_valentine · 27-05-2014 12:54pm

Pretty fitting epitaph tbh

Pug160 · 27-05-2014 8:46pm

beks101 wrote: »

Pathetic. This whole sorry mess and the sorry state of this sick individual's head.

I've worked in big newsrooms across the world for years and no story even comes close to paralleling the frequency that these shootings by privileged/white guys in the US pop up and the extensive coverage that they get.

While mental illness is obviously at the root of it, there's just so many factors at play that it's hard to see how these kind of incidents will ever go away - from second amendment and gun ownership laws and attitudes to this 'celebrity' culture created around the asshats who perpetrate these crimes, to the narcissism and materialism and oneupmanship bred by facebook/online culture, on and on ad nauseum. Those seemingly harmless albeit annoying features can become dangerous among people like this most recent individual, who clearly had chronic social and interpersonal skills, a personality disorder and a propensity towards violence and anger...and then easy access to a bunch of lethal weapons.

I hate that this guy's innermost thoughts are blasted across the web for all and sundry to read and be influenced by. That he can name-drop a bunch of innocent people who are just going about their lives and all of a sudden they're the gaze of the internet and their lives are changed for the worse forever more. Not to mention his victims of course.

What made him think that his innermost thoughts and takes on the world were of any consequence or interest to the public in the first place is what's so wrong with this narcissistic-inspired celebrity culture around these mass murderers. Fcuk his manifesto. Fcuk 'learning a lesson' from this. How many more 'lessons' does America need to learn?

Not usually a Michael Moore fan but he pretty much sums this whole thing up for me -

Elliot Rodger wasn't white, Beks - he was biracial. It seems as though he had issues with that, as well as many other issues stemming from mental health problems and goodness knows what else. Also, in this particular rampage, guns were by no means the deadliest weapon. He was determined to go out and murder people with whatever deadly weapon was at his disposal. In my honest opinion, this is not one of the better examples of why guns should be banned. If anything, this case highlights the need for more awareness regarding mental health, and better treatment for it.

EyeSight · 27-05-2014 9:28pm

Wompa1 wrote: »

It's bigger than that. It's an unjust society, people live day to day in a pressure cooker over here. You're expected to be at your employers beckon call, there's very few employees rights. Today was the first public holiday since Jan 1st. People in the service, retail and some other support jobs get paid so little that they need to work two jobs. The country is also over-prescribed medication, getting vicodin for a toothache is unacceptable but is the norm.

The tax system ensures that the wealthy live in areas where they pay the highest property taxes which go to their local schools, fire departments, police etc. ensuring only the best, if a homeless person wanders in they will quickly be arrested and move out. The poor then live in places that are under-funded and breed mediocrity. It doesn't help progress these people at all. Toss on top of all that the awful media putting what the 'American Dream' is meant to be, basically something which only 1% of people will attain. Advertisement, after advertisement of crap that people believe they need to consume to be happy.

And on top of that the news usually ends with a puff piece. A happy news story. Companies have policies about team building and try to weed out negativity. The Service industry is so intense that you'd think the waitress loves you and wants to suck your d1ck. When everybody is meant to be happy all the time and don't have a way to vent. That can get to a tipping point, also.

Then on top of all that, you give people guns.

Your post has already been replied to pointing out what's wrong with what you said. But i must also disagree with you. It's not that bad and you're focusing only on the negatives. There are much much worse places to live

I find the quality of life to be better in the USA than in Ireland. I also find that at 5pm my emails stop because everyone is gone home and done for the evening. When I was working in Ireland this was not the case at all.
I know loads of people working in the service industry(i did briefly) and none of them want to be given minimum wage because they fear people will stop tipping them. You make much more off tips than you would on wage. On a Friday night in NYC some in a bar would make $400 on tips! Of course they act friendly.

Obviously America has some major social problems, but it's not nearly as bad as you say

Semele · 27-05-2014 9:58pm

Pug160 wrote: »

Elliot Rodger wasn't white, Beks - he was biracial. It seems as though he had issues with that, as well as many other issues stemming from mental health problems and goodness knows what else. Also, in this particular rampage, guns were by no means the deadliest weapon. He was determined to go out and murder people with whatever deadly weapon was at his disposal. In my honest opinion, this is not one of the better examples of why guns should be banned. If anything, this case highlights the need for more awareness regarding mental health, and better treatment for it.

It's not one thing or the other though, is it? The media always looks for simplistic, easy soundbite solutions, to cases like this. To pin the blame on one factor among many is both to do an injustice to all the victims (including the killer- unpleasant and ultimately totally culpable though he was, he was an unhappy person who could perhaps have been helped) and to fail to learn anything from the situation.

To big up the mental illness angle is to ignore the bigger picture, and I say that as a mental health professional who is equally angry when obvious mental health issues are ignored in such stories! If ER did have Aspergers (which is not a mental illness, but a developmental disorder anyway), then it explains the obvious difficulties with social understanding he had, as well as the rigid and rule-based behaviour, and the objectification of other people. This maybe explains why he went so much further in pursuit of his beliefs than most other internet misogynists, but it doesn't dictate the focus of his obsession.

In my opinion, he was an outwardly privileged, but ultimately socially disadvantaged individual who was frustrated sexually/romantically with little ability to reflect on the reasons for this. Unfortunately, he lived in a culture where the internet provides easy access to hate-filled explanations for every woe- extreme misogyny just one of these. So a boy with feelings that he doesn't fully understand is provided with a language and rationale for these courtesy of the anti-PUA forums etc (where he was also encouraged and egged on), with the extra whammy that he doesn't have the flexibility of thought to critique these. Add to this the fact that he has access to guns, and all the pieces of the puzzle come together, tragically.

There is no one answer: ER (probably) has Aspergers. On its own this didn't cause him to kill people- most people with Aspergers don't, if that even needs saying. ER had hateful, disturbing views about women and "inferior" men. So do a hell of a lot of people, but every nasty little keyboard warrior doesn't go out and actually do the things he fantasises about online. ER had access to guns, in a culture that has an alarming level of firearm-related violence and again some fairly disturbing views about their use. Despite this culture and easy availability of guns, most Americans don't go on shooting sprees. Put all those factors together, however, and you get a tragedy waiting to happen.

In my opinion, ERs case shines a light on many cultural and societal factors, from the acceptability of extreme prejudice, to the pressured social norms/expectations in the US, particularly in high-school/college, to the stigma of being mentally different and the lack of appropriate and timely help for this. They are all things that are horribly wrong with the world we live in, and focus on mental illness/difference makes this yet another tidy, individualised incident that we can all safely forget about because, well, he was weird.

beks101 · 27-05-2014 10:24pm

Pug160 wrote: »

Elliot Rodger wasn't white, Beks - he was biracial. It seems as though he had issues with that, as well as many other issues stemming from mental health problems and goodness knows what else. Also, in this particular rampage, guns were by no means the deadliest weapon. He was determined to go out and murder people with whatever deadly weapon was at his disposal. In my honest opinion, this is not one of the better examples of why guns should be banned. If anything, this case highlights the need for more awareness regarding mental health, and better treatment for it.

Yeah, this is true. He was half-white, 'Eurasian', and seemed to identify himself with white privilege, wealth, materialism, while expressly hating himself for being biracial. That seemed to be a very deciding factor in all of this - he hated being half-Asian and looked down on non-whites, and that self-hatred seemed to fuel an anti-Asian violence that kicked off the whole rampage.

Some of the racist bile he spits about his housemates in his 'manifesto' is shocking and the prevailing theme seems to be this sort of Hitler-eque 'Aryan master race' notion of his -

I am half White, half Asian, and this made me different from the normal fully-white kids that I was trying to fit in with. I envied the cool kids, and I wanted to be one of them. I was a bit frustrated at my parents for not shaping me into one of these kids in the past. They never made an effort to dress me in stylish clothing or get me a good-looking haircut. I had to make every effort to rectify this. I had to adapt.

James Holmes, Adam Lanza, Elliot Rodger...middle-class, wealthy, educated, from privileged backgrounds, 'nice families', and with such an inflated sense of aggrieved self-entitlement that they went out on violent rampages in public spaces because the world needed to be accountable for their own shortcomings.

Every killer makes his pain someone else's problem. But it seems to be these guys, the ones who marinated in privilege their whole lives, that seem to believe their private pain needed to be the entire world's problem. The world owed them something. These are the guys who end up shooting up schools and movie theatres and sorority houses.

Rodger couldn't have killed as many as he did with knives. TBH I'm still struggling to get my head around how such a puny, small, seemingly physically weak man got as far as he did in the first round of attacks. But that's another story. And I need to stop thinking about all of this now because it's making me angry.

Wompa1 · 27-05-2014 10:33pm

EyeSight wrote: »

Your post has already been replied to pointing out what's wrong with what you said. But i must also disagree with you. It's not that bad and you're focusing only on the negatives. There are much much worse places to live

I find the quality of life to be better in the USA than in Ireland. I also find that at 5pm my emails stop because everyone is gone home and done for the evening. When I was working in Ireland this was not the case at all.
I know loads of people working in the service industry(i did briefly) and none of them want to be given minimum wage because they fear people will stop tipping them. You make much more off tips than you would on wage. On a Friday night in NYC some in a bar would make $400 on tips! Of course they act friendly.

Obviously America has some major social problems, but it's not nearly as bad as you say

But what about those who make minimum wage that don't get tips? Also the tipping system is flawed in many respects. From a customer standpoint, if you go out to eat alone, which I did quite a bit when I first moved here, and a table of 10+ get seated in your area, good luck! You're forgotten. Then those tips are basically working on an honor system, it's up to the workers to be honest and declare taxes on them in some places. Also, you're at the mercy of many different variables. What if you get somebody who doesn't tip just because, or the place you're working in get's disrupted by bad weather or construction or so on and so on. (Lots of places in Phoenix are currently being impacted by construction work on a light rail system, it's really hurting foot fall in certain areas, A huge entertainment district very nearly lost a Sports team who played there and accounted for big foot fall in the off-peak season..if that happened people on tips would have been f**ked, it likely will happen in a few years too..)

I recently worked 27 days in a row in my current job, from 8 am until 10pm. On Salary..no overtime. I have also been told that I need to be available 24\7 via Instant Messenger and phone. This is my third year in the US and this has been the case with all of the jobs I have taken.

In my previous employers we had 200k+ employees. The company bought out other companies at such a fast rate that we couldn't consolidate their tech infrastructures fast enough. There were so many employees that system migrations and upgrades on weekends were pretty much an every weekend thing. This mean teams of people working weekends and joining two day long conference calls while carrying out the work. Employees again were salary based. These migrations also fell outside of the updates deployments which was once a week (Patch Tuesday once a month but rolling out to different groups at different times to ensure if something went boom, not everybody was down) and the weekly application deployments. Again, we were all salary. This particular company was very clever...they didn't hire contractors....they knew overtime was a must and didn't want to pay for it. They also scrutinized how much extra hours we put in as part of our review. One lad I was working with, had a second job. His wife was doing a masters and he was paying for it. He would do his set hours. Get in at 7, leave at 4 and go to work a shift from 4-10 at a DIY. He got written up for not doing enough, he was told he should put in more hours if that's what is required to get the work done....meanwhile, he had so much work that it was the only way to get it done...same for all of us. They never put it in writing that they want you to work more hours.

I worked for an Insurance company. They told us point blank that we are all expected to put in at least 5 hours overtime a week. We were in a meeting room, not recorded, not on paper. This company was ruthless, people being walked off the job was part and parcel. We were also expected to do volunteer work in our spare time (This was part of the review)

Also in regards to focusing on the negative. I will say I am earning a lot of money here and taxes are much lower. I am ok with doing this level of work at this point of my life, however if I have to, I will move somewhere else for a better lifestyle, once I've made enough to live comfortably in the future.

One more point on the Aspergers angle. An ex girlfriend of mine got punched in the face in broad daylight in Galway, she was one of six women who got hit by him that day. He got off due to his illness. He only targeted women. I'm no psychologist but I wonder if somebody who has this disease which makes them socially challenged, means they get frustrated when the opposite sex won't give them the time of day. He seemed to think the women should have approached him, not the other way around....he also seemed to be an ego-maniac. As though he had it all to offer and it was the women who were at fault

Vito Corleone · 27-05-2014 10:58pm

beks101 wrote: »

James Holmes, Adam Lanza, Elliot Rodger...middle-class, wealthy, educated, from privileged backgrounds, 'nice families', and with such an inflated sense of aggrieved self-entitlement that they went out on violent rampages in public spaces because the world needed to be accountable for their own shortcomings.

I wouldn't consider Holmes or Lanza as privileged or wealthy tbh. I don't know where you're getting this "self entitlement" thing from with regards to them. Lanza had aspergers and other mental health issues, as did Holmes, which I feel were the main factors in what caused them to do what they did.

Wompa1 · 27-05-2014 11:37pm

Anachrony wrote: »

Except Martin Luther King Day and Presidents Day. Two national holidays observed in most public and many private workplaces, between then and now. My office gets those and 8 others throughout the year. Plus another 3 weeks vacation time. 5 weeks total may be slightly less than is common in Ireland, but it's not nothing, and the pay is a lot better.

Worked for three different private companies so far. MLK and Presidents Day was 'observed' but no day off. How many are many? Also, what applies to your office does not apply to everybody.

From Employees Benefits site for California:

The most commonly granted holidays in California are:

New Year’s Day – January 1
Memorial Day – May 31, observed on the last Monday in May
Independence Day – July 4
Labor Day – first Monday in September
Veterans Day – November 11
Thanksgiving – fourth Thursday in November
Christmas – December 25

I also know that many (using your vague term) don't give their employees Veterans Day off, even those who served!

Anachrony wrote: »

Wouldn't know, as I've never had a toothache. The only time a dentist prescribed me Vicodin was when I had my Wisdom teeth removed. I ended up not filling the prescription, because I wasn't in pain. Didn't realize this should be one of the major concerns in my life.

Over prescription certainly should be a concern. Kids taking medication for ADD, People getting addicted to pain medication. People selling prescription drugs prescribed but not needed by them. Millions of people abuse prescription drugs.

http://www.drugfreeworld.org/drugfacts/prescription/abuse-international-statistics.html

Anachrony wrote: »

A lot of that funding actually comes from taxes at the State level, and is distributed around the state according to need, not allocated in proportion to the amount of taxes collected regionally. Some even supplements state programs from sources at a federal level. Some property taxes are collected at a county level, but you'll find that very few entire counties are universally wealthy. This county is known as a wealthy area, but demographically, there is a full range of all income levels well represented.

I'll give three different examples. La Jolla outside of San Diego, Scottsdale just outside of Phoenix and Bellevue just outside of Seattle. Three very affluent areas outside of large cities. Expensive homes, high property tax rates. When do you see homeless people there? You know what you see a lot of? Police officers.

What's more, you even see them dealing with domestic disturbances quite often. I've witnessed this in two very affluent areas I've lived in. Copys constantly in the apartment complex dealing with some Domestic case....I then spent one year in a real dump. Big complex in a really dodgy area. Never saw the cops, they didn't come near the place. Is it because there weren't any problems there? Nope. I would guess, It was because they didn't have the resources to deal with such low priority work. The cops in that area drove the typical Ford squad cars. The cops in Scottsdale drive Dodge Chargers. I have seen multiple instances of homeless people getting arrested in Scottsdale...none in South Phoenix or Tempe. They want them to stay there.

Anachrony wrote: »

The truly rich send their kids to private school anyway, not public schools in good neighborhoods. It's the middle class who send their kids to good public schools, money is not the only thing making those schools perform better, and they are rarely quite as exclusive as you suggest.

Fair point, though it depends on your definition of rich. If somebody can live in a spot where they pay 6k+ a year in property tax, I'd say they are pretty rich. I'll use my own reference point here but in Scottsdale there's many mega rich people making millions. There's also those dreamers who make a good living but are living off of credit. They send their kids to these schools thinking they are giving them a leg up. You must have an address in the locale to send your kids to those schools. A lad I know in Ireland has a brother who lives in the US. He sold his house and actually renting a place in a good area, so he could send his kids to a good school.

Anachrony wrote: »

Complete fabrication. If anything, there are disproportionately more homeless people in wealthy areas. If you aren't paying anything to live there anyway, whats the downside? Better panhandling, more shelters and charities.

Not from what I've seen. Gave you three examples above.

Anachrony wrote: »

If you look at the actual budgets, schools in poor neighborhoods of cities tend to have roughly as much funding per student as those in better neighborhoods. They perform much worse anyway. It's not solely a matter of funding. There is a cycle of poverty at work, but a lot of it is happening outside the classroom.

When I suggest progressing, it wasn't just in relation to the schools. People need more help in many ways.

Anachrony wrote: »

As opposed to the rest of the Western world, which is totally different from that.

Yes, I'll use Ireland as an example, it sucks because it's getting worse there too. You can watch 45 minutes of a soccer match without a little pop-up for Budwesier or Gillette coming on the screen. Or a replay sponsored by Starburst. You're not going to get advertising for certain products during day time hours. Drive from Galway to Dublin on the motorway, count the billboards...they were banned. Farmers starting selling space in their fields so company could put trucks with writing on them, they then got banned.

Here's another little anecdote. I went to San Diego this past weekend, I wasn't watching TV, I wasn't listening to the radio, I also switched off and didn't go online...no way for advertising to get to me, I wasn't attending a sporting event or concert. I was going to the beach.

Plane after plane of carrying banners for Budweiser, for Corrs etc. At one point there was an advertisement for Geico in sky writing....it's absurd and yet it's just part of life here.

Anachrony wrote: »

Based on your comments about TV news, perhaps you're talking about television ads. The secret is there isn't much reason to actually watch those. That might have been a good criticism 20 years ago, but when I watch broadcast television, I've been fast forwarding through those on my DVR for close to 15 years. A lot of the best shows are on premium channels like HBO, which doesn't have ads. Netflix and Amazon Prime don't have ads. Hulu has too many ads, and you can't fast forward them, I'll give you that. Not my first choice in how to view content.

TV Stations websites make you sit through 5 ads every break. e.g. Comedy Central. YouTube is becoming inundated with advertising now. Even our lovely Boards or Reddit are becoming pits for advertising. Twitter and Facebook likewise...unless it's regulated, they'll always find ways to to get to you. When I moved here, the first thing I did was buy a sim card and setup a bank account..within a couple of days I was getting blasted with Telemarketers calls. All I did was buy the card and setup the account..I'm convinced the bank sold my details....I changed my SIM and the calls went away (for the most part, still get a few a week...which doesn't happen in Ireland either)

Anachrony wrote: »

What century are you living in? Who watches television news? Grandparents, maybe. Except I know a lot of seniors who get their news online too. The old media is struggling to remain relevant.

I would take a guess and say the majority of people....not everybody has ditched their cable box. It's getting a little bit better with Al Jazeera joining the fold but before that, PBS was the closest new source that wasn't showing bias. And even then, at times I thought they leaned a little left.

Anachrony wrote: »

Perhaps some do. Others have actual work to do. You'll find this is something that varies from company to company, and perhaps even to some extent from industry to industry, more than it does from country to country.

Haven't found it yet. Worked for a retail company, an Insurance company and IT Service Providers so far.

I actually worked for a big US company in Ireland...the management style was vastly different in the Irish branch than it is in their US branch. Some good ways, some bad. I got exposed to that when traveling for work to the US on their behalf. Also travelled to other countries for them. I can say, the way they treated employees in Germany seemed a step above how we were treated in Ireland.

Anachrony wrote: »

You mean they don't? I, for one, was genuinely fooled all this time. Thanks for the keen insight.

Down play it if you'd like....

Anachrony wrote: »

So that's your explanation for all this? You've looked over this guy's manifesto and you think he just felt too much pressure to appear happy and not vent? I think he was living in a much different fantasy world than that, and his problems ran much deeper. It doesn't seem like he ever bothered to try to appear happy.

I think you're just trying to hijack this event to air your personal grievances which have little or nothing to do with anything that actually happened.

Who said it was all about this incident?. I replied to Beks comment which was about something much bigger than just this one incident. She mentioned 'these' shootings. I think this guy had some serious mental problems, I did read the manifesto. I found it telling that he mentioned that one of the counsellors tried to convince him to leave the area, that women there did go for a certain type of guy.

He latched on to any re-enforcement of his deep seeded beliefs. If he did have Aspergers, that obviously would play a big part in harboring that. I found the writings to be very similar to Catcher in the Rye....even the bitterness towards women was similar to that of Holden Caulfields. He talked about reading and his mothers encouragement to write. I'd wonder if that was an influence in how he wanted to be perceived after all of this. (Obviously not saying it was why he did all of this)

The media seems to have turned it's attention towards the Misogynist angle which I think sucks because it doesn't look at the bigger picture and may be why they are going that route. The call of hate crime when the majority of those that died were men seems misplaced to me right now. Also the hate crime angle only being played towards the women is a little insulting when he talked ill of the Asian fella at the party and his Asian housemates..he also killed three Asian men (Him identifying as a EurAsian and emphasizing his whiteness)

EyeSight · 28-05-2014 1:56am

Wompa1 wrote: »

But what about those who make minimum wage that don't get tips? Also the tipping system is flawed in many respects. From a customer standpoint, if you go out to eat alone, which I did quite a bit when I first moved here, and a table of 10+ get seated in your area, good luck! You're forgotten. Then those tips are basically working on an honor system, it's up to the workers to be honest and declare taxes on them in some places. Also, you're at the mercy of many different variables. What if you get somebody who doesn't tip just because, or the place you're working in get's disrupted by bad weather or construction or so on and so on. (Lots of places in Phoenix are currently being impacted by construction work on a light rail system, it's really hurting foot fall in certain areas, A huge entertainment district very nearly lost a Sports team who played there and accounted for big foot fall in the off-peak season..if that happened people on tips would have been f**ked, it likely will happen in a few years too..)

I recently worked 27 days in a row in my current job, from 8 am until 10pm. On Salary..no overtime. I have also been told that I need to be available 24\7 via Instant Messenger and phone. This is my third year in the US and this has been the case with all of the jobs I have taken.

In my previous employers we had 200k+ employees. The company bought out other companies at such a fast rate that we couldn't consolidate their tech infrastructures fast enough. There were so many employees that system migrations and upgrades on weekends were pretty much an every weekend thing. This mean teams of people working weekends and joining two day long conference calls while carrying out the work. Employees again were salary based. These migrations also fell outside of the updates deployments which was once a week (Patch Tuesday once a month but rolling out to different groups at different times to ensure if something went boom, not everybody was down) and the weekly application deployments. Again, we were all salary. This particular company was very clever...they didn't hire contractors....they knew overtime was a must and didn't want to pay for it. They also scrutinized how much extra hours we put in as part of our review. One lad I was working with, had a second job. His wife was doing a masters and he was paying for it. He would do his set hours. Get in at 7, leave at 4 and go to work a shift from 4-10 at a DIY. He got written up for not doing enough, he was told he should put in more hours if that's what is required to get the work done....meanwhile, he had so much work that it was the only way to get it done...same for all of us. They never put it in writing that they want you to work more hours.

I worked for an Insurance company. They told us point blank that we are all expected to put in at least 5 hours overtime a week. We were in a meeting room, not recorded, not on paper. This company was ruthless, people being walked off the job was part and parcel. We were also expected to do volunteer work in our spare time (This was part of the review)

Also in regards to focusing on the negative. I will say I am earning a lot of money here and taxes are much lower. I am ok with doing this level of work at this point of my life, however if I have to, I will move somewhere else for a better lifestyle, once I've made enough to live comfortably in the future.

One more point on the Aspergers angle. An ex girlfriend of mine got punched in the face in broad daylight in Galway, she was one of six women who got hit by him that day. He got off due to his illness. He only targeted women. I'm no psychologist but I wonder if somebody who has this disease which makes them socially challenged, means they get frustrated when the opposite sex won't give them the time of day. He seemed to think the women should have approached him, not the other way around....he also seemed to be an ego-maniac. As though he had it all to offer and it was the women who were at fault

I have had a different experience, but again i think you're only focusing on negatives. Negatives I could find with most first world countries.
At the end of the day, you experience being over worked (or something similar) but if you had a gun would you go out and shoot loads of innocents? I doubt it.
I think it comes down to individuals and their own problems. The way the media hype up the perpetrator may have something to do with it also. The media here are awful, we agree on that

This individual wasn't affected by most of those problems

7 dead in Californian Shooting

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