7 dead in Californian Shooting

EyeSight

Some of the sensationalism in this thread is good enough to be on CNN and FOX...

Pug160

Semele wrote: »

It's not one thing or the other though, is it? The media always looks for simplistic, easy soundbite solutions, to cases like this. To pin the blame on one factor among many is both to do an injustice to all the victims (including the killer- unpleasant and ultimately totally culpable though he was, he was an unhappy person who could perhaps have been helped) and to fail to learn anything from the situation.

To big up the mental illness angle is to ignore the bigger picture, and I say that as a mental health professional who is equally angry when obvious mental health issues are ignored in such stories! If ER did have Aspergers (which is not a mental illness, but a developmental disorder anyway), then it explains the obvious difficulties with social understanding he had, as well as the rigid and rule-based behaviour, and the objectification of other people. This maybe explains why he went so much further in pursuit of his beliefs than most other internet misogynists, but it doesn't dictate the focus of his obsession.

In my opinion, he was an outwardly privileged, but ultimately socially disadvantaged individual who was frustrated sexually/romantically with little ability to reflect on the reasons for this.

beks101 wrote: »

Yeah, this is true. He was half-white, 'Eurasian', and seemed to identify himself with white privilege, wealth, materialism, while expressly hating himself for being biracial. That seemed to be a very deciding factor in all of this - he hated being half-Asian and looked down on non-whites, and that self-hatred seemed to fuel an anti-Asian violence that kicked off the whole rampage.

.

I agree with both of you up to a point, but it looks to me as though some of you are using this discussion for your own agendas. Terms like 'white privilege' do nothing except alienate large sections of society. It's the same with the equally cringeworthy term 'rape culture'. Lots of people feel they deserve certain things - people of all races, classes and genders. Society as a whole needs to be looked at rather than this finger pointing that seems to be going on. Being from a wealthy background can certainly make people more out of touch with some of life's harsher realities but I don't necessarily think it makes most of them feel more entitled when it comes to romantic success. Rodger's mental health issues and society as a whole are the big picture.

Why is it so difficult for some people to admit we all have a collective responsibility, and that a lot of nastiness/dysfunction out there is from all sections of society? I'm not fond of this gender war that seems to be going on at the minute. I'm not saying this to be controversial, but there are a lot of angry young women who could very well follow in the footsteps of some of these men, and some of the feminist rhetoric isn't helping.

Vito Corleone

White privilege is a load of bullshit. Guy had serious mental issues.

Azwaldo55

Vito Corleone wrote: »

White privilege is a load of bullshit. Guy had serious mental issues.

He wasn't white he was mixed race.

Vito Corleone

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

He wasn't white he was mixed race.

I know, which makes it even more ridiculous in this context.

beks101

Pug160 wrote: »

Why is it so difficult for some people to admit we all have a collective responsibility, and that a lot of nastiness/dysfunction out there is from all sections of society? I'm not fond of this gender war that seems to be going on at the minute. I'm not saying this to be controversial, but there are a lot of angry young women who could very well follow in the footsteps of some of these men, and some of the feminist rhetoric isn't helping.

Statistically this isn't happening though.

Wompa1

Vito Corleone wrote: »

I know, which makes it even more ridiculous in this context.

George Zimmerman also wasn't white. Tough to tell from the media coverage. Not that it really matters, I don't think it's a racial thing

jill_valentine

Pug160 wrote: »

Why is it so difficult for some people to admit we all have a collective responsibility, and that a lot of nastiness/dysfunction out there is from all sections of society? I'm not fond of this gender war that seems to be going on at the minute. I'm not saying this to be controversial, but there are a lot of angry young women who could very well follow in the footsteps of some of these men, and some of the feminist rhetoric isn't helping.

Because we can't fix this stuff if we don't come to grips with it at the root. It's not a question of gender war, the simple reality is, incidents like this are practically unheard of from young women. They're over-represented in the US, and they're over represented by young men of white extraction and a particular social strata.

Therefore, there has to be some differentiating factor between young American men, and say, old Venezuelan women, in play. There is no point pretending this is a universally presented crime.

It's not equally distributed between male and female, so it's not a "human" thing. It's not seen equally from country to country, so it's not biological or purely a function of mental illness. And it's not some racially inherent thing because you simply do not see young Irish guys doing stuff like this proportionately and they're as pasty as it gets. There is something in the commonalities between these figures which makes it easier for them to behave like this than it is for others.

IMHO, it's likely something in the socialisation of this particular recipe of person which greases the gears, but regardless, there's no point pretending Tina Turner is 100% as likely as a financially comfortable angry teenage/early 20 something boy to perpetrate a public mass murder.

Wibbs

jill_valentine wrote: »

Again, yes there were plenty of other factors, and yes he hated everyone, but as you say, he focussed on women in particular. All I'm getting at is that looking at the intended victims would probably offer more insight than just looking at who he managed to actually kill. Once something like this actually starts happening, there's a large element of "opportunity targeting"

Sure, but who did he target and kill first? His rants also show real hate for non white men. Projection a gogo there. In any event trying to tease out what was going through this insane bastard's mind is going to be difficult, even with his reams of rants on the matter.

"Women" and men who "got them" were the focus of his insanity. People, normal people. People, especially men not like him. In his fúcked up mindset he was doing everything "right" as far as what he thought the template was. He wasn't ugly, he had money, he had connections, he had his beemer, he had brains, but women were going for as he saw it thugs and non white men and he couldn't even score a kiss.

If anything this insane rampage was as much about him raging against the society at large that he felt fed him BS and gave him a sense of entitlement. Not a good mix when you add in him being an insane weirdo.

jill_valentine wrote: »

They're over-represented in the US, and they're over represented by young men of white extraction and a particular social strata.

I'd be with you there, it's most certainly a societal thing. As you say it tends to happen in a particular type and in a particular society far more than it does elsewhere. Yes there can be outliers like that insane prick in Norway a couple of years ago, but they are outliers. It's a regular thing in the US. It's the first country you think of when you hear of a gun rampage.

The guns are part of it sure and guns can cause more deaths a lot more easily even in the hands of an idiot, but Canada with a pretty similar amount of guns about the place doesn't suffer from this kinda rampage like the US does. Hell go back 60 years in the US when you could mail order a Tommie gun and it wasn't happening. There were more guns, more lax gun laws, in the same nation, yet mass killings like this simply weren't happening. So what has changed?

I dunno, I'd reckon it's too much comparative thinking. We're bombarded from birth with images of what we should be, ideals we're told that we can all reach(which is bullshít), images of the rare really successful types and we're told we could be just like that(if you buy product A). The American dream gone wrong(and not just in America) This bombardment has become intense in the last 30 years and really intense since the interwebs with Arsebook et al. It intensifies any weakness or perceived weakness in people. Not just in tragedies like this chump kicked off, but IMH a lot of depressive type mental illnesses are being triggered and ramped up by the same culture. Take this idiot, he was on a few forums with others of a like mind. Blaming PUA types IIRC as well as women. This feeling of "support" enables some people. Makes them feel like they're right and others believe in them. Some might even ramp up the madness as a competition for attention. Dunno how a society can get that genie back into the bottle though.

diveout

Wibbs wrote: »

Sure, but who did he target and kill first? His rants also show real hate for non white men. Projection a gogo there. In any event trying to tease out what was going through this insane bastard's mind is going to be difficult, even with his reams of rants on the matter.

"Women" and men who "got them" were the focus of his insanity. People, normal people. People, especially men not like him. In his fúcked up mindset he was doing everything "right" as far as what he thought the template was. He wasn't ugly, he had money, he had connections, he had his beemer, he had brains, but women were going for as he saw it thugs and non white men and he couldn't even score a kiss.

If anything this insane rampage was as much about him raging against the society at large that he felt fed him BS and gave him a sense of entitlement. Not a good mix when you add in him being an insane weirdo.

I'd be with you there, it's most certainly a societal thing. As you say it tends to happen in a particular type and in a particular society far more than it does elsewhere. Yes there can be outliers like that insane prick in Norway a couple of years ago, but they are outliers. It's a regular thing in the US. It's the first country you think of when you hear of a gun rampage.

The guns are part of it sure and guns can cause more deaths a lot more easily even in the hands of an idiot, but Canada with a pretty similar amount of guns about the place doesn't suffer from this kinda rampage like the US does. Hell go back 60 years in the US when you could mail order a Tommie gun and it wasn't happening. There were more guns, more lax gun laws, in the same nation, yet mass killings like this simply weren't happening. So what has changed?

I dunno, I'd reckon it's too much comparative thinking. We're bombarded from birth with images of what we should be, ideals we're told that we can all reach(which is bullshít), images of the rare really successful types and we're told we could be just like that(if you buy product A). The American dream gone wrong(and not just in America) This bombardment has become intense in the last 30 years and really intense since the interwebs with Arsebook et al. It intensifies any weakness or perceived weakness in people. Not just in tragedies like this chump kicked off, but IMH a lot of depressive type mental illnesses are being triggered and ramped up by the same culture. Take this idiot, he was on a few forums with others of a like mind. Blaming PUA types IIRC as well as women. This feeling of "support" enables some people. Makes them feel like they're right and others believe in them. Some might even ramp up the madness as a competition for attention. Dunno how a society can get that genie back into the bottle though.

It's true America has an aspirational soul, and there is a tyranny of perfectionism at some level.

This guy may have had everything, but in context of his environment, he was pretty average. They all have bmws, lots of money and are beautiful in Santa Barbra [ I was struck when I watched the vdieo of the golden California sun shining across his face- he must have been aware of the chiarascuro. He was punching above his weight.

Americans have a sense of rights and entitlement that you will find nowhere else in the world, and for the most part I think that's a good thing, a nation of citizens and not of subjects, but when it crosses a line, it leads to violence.

Misogyny may have been a small part of it, but it's bigger than that, it articulates a wider alienation and narcissicm that has steeped through the culture, particularly on the younger generations.

Maid of the Mist

Wibbs wrote: »

I'd be with you there, it's most certainly a societal thing. As you say it tends to happen in a particular type and in a particular society far more than it does elsewhere. Yes there can be outliers like that insane prick in Norway a couple of years ago, but they are outliers. It's a regular thing in the US. It's the first country you think of when you hear of a gun rampage.

I respectfully disagree that the US is the worst country in the world for these gun rampages. The reason they are such big news is because of their relative rarity. When these massacres stop making the news, then it's time to worry. America's neighbour south of the border is host to a lot more extreme and wanton violence. I remember reading about an all-female Mexican town where most the males had been killed. RTE don't bother reporting this as it's an everyday occurrence.

Then you have our friends in the Middle East influenced by the "religion of peace". Children are indoctrinated since birth to die for Allah...it's noble to become a martyr as a suicide bomber. I won't say much more about these folk as some posters have a fit if their hobby horses in Pallywood are criticised. My point is there are many, many countries more violent than America.

We're bombarded from birth with images of what we should be.... This bombardment has become intense in the last 30 years and really intense since the interwebs with Arsebook et al.... Take this idiot, he was on a few forums with others of a like mind. Blaming PUA types IIRC as well as women. This feeling of "support" enables some people. Makes them feel like they're right and others believe in them. Some might even ramp up the madness as a competition for attention. Dunno how a society can get that genie back into the bottle though.

Completely agree that internet fora facilitate these loners stay the way they are (if not become that way). Echo chambers on internet fora are dangerous things. You don't feel quite as insane when dozens of other loners confess that they're hopeless with women too and that they share the same anger because of it. You can become quickly detached from reality when the only other people you talk to are nutters too. This kid should have switched off the computer and joined a soccer team or something.

metaoblivia

Wibbs wrote: »

Sure, but who did he target and kill first? His rants also show real hate for non white men.

I also thought it was interesting that he stabbed those guys to death. That's much more personal than shooting someone and takes a lot more rage.

I feel pretty certain he had a personality disorder, namely Narcissism. And I'm not talking about the way we sometimes throw that word around when describing self-involved people - I think this guy had a serious, full blown case of Narcissistic personality disorder. In some ways, that's more dangerous because a lot of mental disorders are chemical and can be medicated, but personality disorders aren't. The only treatment is therapy and very few narcissists believe they need it. This guy was in therapy and clearly it wasn't working because he couldn't fathom the possibility that he was the problem.

In that respect, he was always a ticking time bomb, unless he somehow ended up in a world that adored him the way he felt he deserved. And even at that, he was always going to be rejected by someone because we all are at some point. He just fixated this on sexual conquests - women - and the people who were getting what he could not - other men (especially minorities).

Women were the objects he couldn't have - and I emphasize objects, because it's clear he didn't see them as people - and other men were the reasons he couldn't have them. He felt rejected by women, but betrayed by men. That coupled with the fact that his roommates were Asian, and he was part Asian himself and clearly had difficulty accepting that, is why I think those killings were so much more personal and rage-filled. Those three guys represented betrayal and self-hatred.

OnTheCouch

Just finished reading the manifesto. Quite staggering in so many ways. I suppose the main thing that sticks out is that if the story is completely truthful, the level of detail is quite astonishing. He must have had an unbelievable memory. Plus it appears that he was a fairly gifted writer in many ways so part of the tragedy is he had so much potential. With the connections he had I'm sure that he could have easily made something of himself, perhaps a scriptwriter or something like that. If he had thrown himself into something he was good at, sooner or later he was bound to start attracting girls, instead of pontificating about what a magnificent gentleman he was and how they should start forming a queue outside his door for the privilege of his time, or other such rubbish.

However, unfortunately this is all if-history now. What does strike me is that the divorce of his parents hit him quite hard. Now I don't want to go down the road of blaming this or them for what happened eventually, that would be completely uncalled for, but I think both of them (especially the mother) indulged him far too much, there are numerous examples in the manifesto where he was bought the latest video games, laptops, designer gear, he flew first class, went to private concerts, film premieres etc. Essentially he was used to getting his own way and he could not comprehend why he could not use money to pay for (or rather attract) a pretty blonde girl in the same way he could say a Hugo Boss shirt. This ultimately led to his immense frustration and refusal to do anything about it, instead believing himself to be perfect from birth, how women choose the wrong type of men, how other races are inferior to him etc etc. The stepmother ironically enough comes across as a fairly balanced individual throughout, seemingly being generally hard but fair when he was growing up, until very near the end, where she tells him that his little brother is going to grow up to be much more successful in both personal and professional endeavours. Now whether this was the result of a lot of frustration because of his odd behaviour, I don't know, but it seemed an incredibly heartless thing to say and may well have pushed him over the edge.

It is quite difficult to appreciate just how much his bitterness towards the opposite sex pushed him to commit such atrocities. Sure, I would imagine the vast majority of us have had times during our lives where we get a little depressed that the girls we like don't reciprocate our attention or prefer to date different guys, but generally this passes. Unfortunately for Elliot, like many things in life, the more successful you are at something, the more options you have and people must have been able to smell the desperation off him miles away. Imagine getting incredibly drunk and gatecrashing a party where you know no one and then he compounds matters by trying to push some girls off a ledge, which is obviously extremely dangerous, he himself was lucky to only suffer a broken leg. The whole thing just reeks of depression.

The bitterness and entitlement came across so strong in his writing, it would have been fairly obvious within a few minutes of speaking to him how close to the surface this was. In all honesty, I cannot really imagine any sane girl wanting to date him with that many hangups, even those who may be starved of options. He essentially came across as way too weird. Mind you, it was classic reaction formation in psychology, he absolutely hated women because deep down he wanted to be with a woman more than anything. He even hints at this several times before his total meltdown, how if even one girl had given him the time of day, he would have called the whole thing off. I'm not sure which is scarier here, the power that women had over him, or the fact that he took rejection so badly he wanted to kill several lives in the process.

Mind you, I read somewhere else, either here or on another forum that sex was surpisingly not actually his main fixation. He was more obsessed with power, being seen to be popular, having people thinking that because he had a pretty girlfriend he was seen as one of the desired people, that he could have sex with whoever he wanted.

A tragic tale really, hopefully some good can come out of it, perhaps if not to do with reducing the availability of guns, then making parents and teachers more aware of when an individual like this is liable to crack, through extra exposure to these problems or something similar.

Wompa1

OnTheCouch wrote: »

Just finished reading the manifesto. Quite staggering in so many ways. I suppose the main thing that sticks out is that if the story is completely truthful, the level of detail is quite astonishing. He must have had an unbelievable memory. Plus it appears that he was a fairly gifted writer in many ways so part of the tragedy is he had so much potential. With the connections he had I'm sure that he could have easily made something of himself, perhaps a scriptwriter or something like that. If he had thrown himself into something he was good at, sooner or later he was bound to start attracting girls, instead of pontificating about what a magnificent gentleman he was and how they should start forming a queue outside his door for the privilege of his time, or other such rubbish.

However, unfortunately this is all if-history now. What does strike me is that the divorce of his parents hit him quite hard. Now I don't want to go down the road of blaming this or them for what happened eventually, that would be completely uncalled for, but I think both of them (especially the mother) indulged him far too much, there are numerous examples in the manifesto where he was bought the latest video games, laptops, designer gear, he flew first class, went to private concerts, film premieres etc. Essentially he was used to getting his own way and he could not comprehend why he could not use money to pay for (or rather attract) a pretty blonde girl in the same way he could say a Hugo Boss shirt. This ultimately led to his immense frustration and refusal to do anything about it, instead believing himself to be perfect from birth, how women choose the wrong type of men, how other races are inferior to him etc etc. The stepmother ironically enough comes across as a fairly balanced individual throughout, seemingly being generally hard but fair when he was growing up, until very near the end, where she tells him that his little brother is going to grow up to be much more successful in both personal and professional endeavours. Now whether this was the result of a lot of frustration because of his odd behaviour, I don't know, but it seemed an incredibly heartless thing to say and may well have pushed him over the edge.

It is quite difficult to appreciate just how much his bitterness towards the opposite sex pushed him to commit such atrocities. Sure, I would imagine the vast majority of us have had times during our lives where we get a little depressed that the girls we like don't reciprocate our attention or prefer to date different guys, but generally this passes. Unfortunately for Elliot, like many things in life, the more successful you are at something, the more options you have and people must have been able to smell the desperation off him miles away. Imagine getting incredibly drunk and gatecrashing a party where you know no one and then he compounds matters by trying to push some girls off a ledge, which is obviously extremely dangerous, he himself was lucky to only suffer a broken leg. The whole thing just reeks of depression.

The bitterness and entitlement came across so strong in his writing, it would have been fairly obvious within a few minutes of speaking to him how close to the surface this was. In all honesty, I cannot really imagine any sane girl wanting to date him with that many hangups, even those who may be starved of options. He essentially came across as way too weird. Mind you, it was classic reaction formation in psychology, he absolutely hated women because deep down he wanted to be with a woman more than anything. He even hints at this several times before his total meltdown, how if even one girl had given him the time of day, he would have called the whole thing off. I'm not sure which is scarier here, the power that women had over him, or the fact that he took rejection so badly he wanted to kill several lives in the process.

Mind you, I read somewhere else, either here or on another forum that I don't think sex was his main priority. He was more obsessed with power, being seen to be popular, having people thinking that because he had a pretty girlfriend he was seen as one of the desired people, that he could have sex with whoever he wanted.

A tragic tale really, hopefully some good can come out of it, perhaps if not to do with reducing the availability of guns, then making parents and teachers more aware of when an individual like this is liable to crack, through extra exposure to these problems or something like that.

I read the entire thing on Sunday. The writing wasn't too bad, reminded me of Catcher in the Rye, a lot! The key in the story to me was the fact he said he had constantly been rejected...he wasn't rejected, he didn't approach girls. He felt by being around them, they should come up to him. He didn't have anything about him to suggest any woman would throw herself at him just on appearance. If it's true that he had Aspergers it would account for him not approaching women and also for him locking himself away, playing video games and being resentful of those who can socialize. Couple that with going through teenage hormones and not getting laid and into your early 20's without getting laid and having what seemed like a strong sexual drive. It seems like it all boiled over. He only wanted sex, everything else in his life was handed to him. He couldn't have sex (without resorting to a hooker) and didn't have the courage or social skills to even speak to women

Even in his last attempt to get a woman, that party that he got thrown off the ledge. He didn't approach any women. He bumped a guy out of the way that was talking to a woman because he felt an Asian man wasn't better than him and he should get white women easier, with him being a EurAsian...He didn't have a sense of entitlement just because he was a guy. He also sat on the ledge beside a group of guys and girls, expecting them to invite him into their group. He believed guys who had less to offer than him, got women with ease. He was driving to Arizona to buy lottery tickets because he believed he needed wealth to get women...that's a pretty unique to America thing...in Ireland you might think if you want to get models or celebrity women you need to have money because that's who they go for...or at least that's what you see in the media. But in the US, many women go for money.

Also from what one of his consellors was saying to him, if you believe him (which I do because he was going to his death and it seemed like a very honest account..he portrayed himself as a loser) that community he was in may have had women who were materialistic or out for big muscular guys. It's even something I've heard many times about specifically women in Southern California...so, that's not a gender thing I'm getting at or that his counselor was getting at, but a geographic thing

deseil

Maid of the Mist wrote: »

I respectfully disagree that the US is the worst country in the world for these gun rampages. The reason they are such big news is because of their relative rarity. When these massacres stop making the news, then it's time to worry. America's neighbour south of the border is host to a lot more extreme and wanton violence. I remember reading about an all-female Mexican town where most the males had been killed. RTE don't bother reporting this as it's an everyday occurrence.

Then you have our friends in the Middle East influenced by the "religion of peace". Children are indoctrinated since birth to die for Allah...it's noble to become a martyr as a suicide bomber. I won't say much more about these folk as some posters have a fit if their hobby horses in Pallywood are criticised. My point is there are many, many countries more violent than America.



Completely agree that internet fora facilitate these loners stay the way they are (if not become that way). Echo chambers on internet fora are dangerous things. You don't feel quite as insane when dozens of other loners confess that they're hopeless with women too and that they share the same anger because of it. You can become quickly detached from reality when the only other people you talk to are nutters too. This kid should have switched off the computer and joined a soccer team or something.

Your not comparing like with like though.

Its rare if unheard of in the countries you mention, for a young man from a village or town, in a peaceful area, to go crazy and kill at random in schools or shops.


America brings its kids up in a dog eat dog world this is the result.

Manic Moran

Vito Corleone wrote: »

I actually had an argument about Zimmerman's trial (I believe he was innocent) with a friend of mine, and when I asked what race he was my friend replied "white". The mind boggles.

Unless something has changed on the Irish form since the last time I filled one out, he'd be qualified as "white/Caucasian." "Hispanic" seems to be more an American thing, and US forms often distinguish between "white" and "white (Hispanic)"

This is weeds, however.