7 dead in Californian Shooting

Sparks

Davei141 wrote: »

Denial? Says the guy shamelessly turning a tragedy into points scoring for your own stupid agenda. "Mens Right Activist" jesus you talk some serious rubbish. I guess he had no mental health issues at all? and i never mentioned guns so i don't know why you are bringing that up, nice straw men though.

Some actual quotes from the guy:

[I will] slaughter every single spoiled, stuck-up, blond slut I see

College is the time when everyone experiences those things such as sex and fun and pleasure, but in those years I've had to rot in loneliness, it's not fair … I don't know why you girls aren't attracted to me but I will punish you all for it.

You forced me to suffer all my life, now I will make you all suffer. I waited a long time for this. I'll give you exactly what you deserve, all of you. All you girls who rejected me, looked down upon me, you know, treated me like scum while you gave yourselves to other men.

But no, I'm sure this had nothing to do with that and it's all because of sunspots or acne medication, right?

Davei141

Sparks wrote: »

Some actual quotes from the guy:

But no, I'm sure this had nothing to do with that and it's all because of sunspots or acne medication, right?

More straw men crap, what you on about? He was described as being a seriously disturbed child by a family member and was in therapy for years. Do you seriously think his hatred of women is all this is about? Seriously? It's not like you are pushing an agenda right?

Carlos Orange

Sparks wrote: »

No, it's me saying your answer was horse****. The guy's a "Mens Rights Activist" eejit, he makes a video stating his motives, he goes off and murders six women, and you think gun policy or asbergers or the plot of the hunger games or some other ****e is the problem.
Does the word Denial mean much to you?

Six women were not murdered. 4 men and 2 women were.

carraig2

I have a brother with AS and you would not believe how difficult he finds it to see things as most others. He has a complete lack of empathy and it caused the family problems for years. When my grandfather died he told my mother he was not sad because he was old and sick and that's what happened to old and sick people. When my sister lost a baby he asked her why she was sad about something that was not even alive. He is not intentionally cruel or heartless, he just does not feel for others.
I am not saying he could ever do anything sick like this but he can be as emotionally detached as that guy in the videos.

Czarcasm

carraig2 wrote: »

I am not saying he could ever do anything sick like this but he can be as emotionally detached as that guy in the videos.

There's a difference between a person who registers on the autism spectrum that is incapable of processing emotions and empathy, and this snivelling snotrag who was bitter at the world for their lack of recognition of him. He was emotionally invested in himself, and was fully aware of his actions at the time, even to the point where I imagine he rehearsed that little speech behind the steering wheel many times over. Some of this makes for interesting reading -


The Disturbing Internet Footprint Of Santa Barbara Shooter Elliot Rodger

diveout

This kind of thing has become so normalised in the US that you will see more of it.

The fact they are doing lockdown drills as a matter of course in primary schools, validates the prospect of getting shot as a very strong possibility woven into the fabric of your future.

I think also the entitlement culture combined with the status of victimsisation, makes this type of thing more and more likely.

He felt like a victim when he planned this, as do most people who have hurt someone else. He was hurt and entitled.

Da Shins Kelly

Czarcasm wrote: »

Self-absorbed little shìte that had his arse wiped for him by his parents his whole life. The whole video (terrible acting and dialogue) and "manifesto" was his aiming for immortality, that he provided enough material for films to be made about him.

Blaming society, or 'gun culture', or mental health or any of the rest of it is just looking for a way to explain this pricks behaviour other than just the simplest explanation.

You'd kinda know it was California from the way he was going on. A cringey monologue delivered horribly complete with moody stares. A real whiff of Hollywood about the whole thing. It'd be laughable if the outcome wasn't so awful.

He just comes off as the kind of person who thinks the world owes him something.

Son Of A Vidic

Vito Corleone wrote: »

This was pretty disturbing, particularly the "one" part.

I also thought that was very creepy. Almost as if a girl was 'a thing' an 'object' he just wanted to own and control.

GalwayGuy2

Czarcasm wrote: »

Self-absorbed little shìte that had his arse wiped for him by his parents his whole life.

There's quite an interesting qoute from his manifesto. I haven't read it, I don't want to link, and i'd rather not give this little prick any more attention, but it is quite interesting.

He said, when planning to kill his own family, that he hoped his father was away because he didn't want to deal with him.

I got a strange familial abuse vibe from that sentence

Maybe it's just always seeing the parents as the problem and not the little ****.

carraig2 wrote: »

I am not saying he could ever do anything sick like this but he can be as emotionally detached as that guy in the videos.

Hmm, I tried to reply and I seemed to thank the post. Strange.

Honestly, I think social isolation is the real danger with aspergers/autism.

You need some form of societal conditioning from peers. Strangely, I would agree with the MRA thing as an explanation if I didn't think he was trying to get infamy.

Smidge

Czarcasm wrote: »

Seems as valid an assumption as any other really at this point Smidge. My point is that basically the only thing his parents couldn't give him, was the attention and validation he sought from everyone else. He was his parent's special little snowflake, and that instilled in him a sense that everyone else should care about him the same way they do without him having to do anything to earn their respect. The world doesn't work like that.

I don't think it had anything to do with wealth either, I think you'll find that it's more common among the most socially deprived in society that their children are more physically and emotionally neglected by their parents.

That's my point. He may have gotten a beemer and a healthy allowance and this would be classed as "being spoiled" but you said that he was a spoilt brat whose parents wiped his backside etc.
It would appear that this isn't the case going by the fact that they were "concerned" about his videos but instead of intervening themselves(and to be perfectly frank, this guys issues didn't just spring up over night, I would hazard a guess that the parents had completely overlooked and neglected him emotionally for a very long time and just threw money at him to make up for the absenteeism before he ever got to this juncture).
Neglect between the social classes is a strange one tbh.
I would imagine that it would appear to be more prevalent in the poorer classes but only because..
A: Well there's more poor people than there are rich! And it gets reported in the media and by bodies who have more access to them etc way more than they would have access to wealthier people and......
B: Wealthy people get to hide it better. Private doctors, lawyers and the appearance of support ie clean, new clothes, well fed and not malnourished, latest gadgets, good dental health etc(you get my point).
This however, imo does not mean that the children of wealthy people are not neglected in near proportionate amounts to children of poorer families(and again our definition of neglect may differ)
It's also, I'd like to add just complete speculation that we are all doing at the minute as we haven't a clue what these peoples lives really entailed.

Un Croissant

This guys videos would have been a gold mine for South Park. That's how cringe some of his videos are. Alas, he was too crazy.

Azwaldo55

Elliot Rodger posted his life story online in a 140 page manifesto:

http://www.scribd.com/fullscreen/225936731?access_key=key-m7xk0kePAsy2MdKx3uH6&allow_share=true&escape=false&view_mode=scroll

He describes the process which led to him become hatefilled and bitter toward women and why he chose the path he took.

If you ever wanted to get a window into the mind of a psychopathic killer you should read it.

His only friend a little boy was a Madeleine Humphreys the daughter of the famous musician Paul Humphreys.

I always enjoyed my family’s get
-togethers with the Humphreys. These get-togethers became a common occurrence in my life. Maddy became a very close friend of mine. She was the only friend from Farm School who I continued to see after I graduated. They had a huge back yard area, and the two of us would go on adventures. She also grew up watching The Land Before Time, and we would watch the sequels together whenever they released a new one. Sometimes when I went to her house, she would have other female friends there, and I played with them too. I had no trouble interacting with girls at that age, surprisingly. My six-year-old self was playing with girls, unbeknownst to the horror and misery the female gender would inflict upon me later in my life. In the present day, these girls would treat me like the scum of the earth; but at that time, we were all equals. Such bitter irony.

Czarcasm

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

Elliot Rodger posted his life story online in a 140 page manifesto:

http://www.scribd.com/fullscreen/225936731?access_key=key-m7xk0kePAsy2MdKx3uH6&allow_share=true&escape=false&view_mode=scroll

He describes the process which led to him become hatefilled and bitter toward women and why he chose the path he took.

If you ever wanted to get a window into the mind of a psychopathic killer you should read it.

His only friend a little boy was a Madeleine Humphreys the daughter of the famous musician Paul Humphreys.

That's exactly what he wanted you to think. Me personally, I'm not too interested in reading through 140 pages of narcissistic navel-gazing drivel given the vagina monologues he posted on YouTube.

Son Of A Vidic

Personally, I would prefer if the media didn't facilitate this self-publicist by airing his rambling nonsense.

Thomas D

This guy gives alphas and true PUAs like myself a bad name.

carraig2

Czarcasm wrote: »

There's a difference between a person who registers on the autism spectrum that is incapable of processing emotions and empathy, and this snivelling snotrag who was bitter at the world for their lack of recognition of him. He was emotionally invested in himself, and was fully aware of his actions at the time, even to the point where I imagine he rehearsed that little speech behind the steering wheel many times over. Some of this makes for interesting reading -


The Disturbing Internet Footprint Of Santa Barbara Shooter Elliot Rodger

From my experience with my brother many people with aspergers are self absorbed and they rely on close family to interpret people's actions for them. They have to be taught how not to be so self absorbed. Don't get me wrong I am not saying his AS is an excuse at all. I am saying that it is common to be detached from humanity.

carraig2

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

There's quite an interesting qoute from his manifesto. I haven't read it, I don't want to link, and i'd rather not give this little prick any more attention, but it is quite interesting.

He said, when planning to kill his own family, that he hoped his father was away because he didn't want to deal with him.

I got a strange familial abuse vibe from that sentence

Maybe it's just always seeing the parents as the problem and not the little ****.



Hmm, I tried to reply and I seemed to thank the post. Strange.

Honestly, I think social isolation is the real danger with aspergers/autism.

You need some form of societal conditioning from peers. Strangely, I would agree with the MRA thing as an explanation if I didn't think he was trying to get infamy.

Exactly what I meant. My family often had to condition my brother in how to behave, teach him how to act. I agree with you. The AS was part of him but it was not the cause of this tragedy.

Amirani

no_shadow wrote: »

its incredibly difficult to get someone committed nowadays , in both the usa and ireland , the system is ran by liberals who vehemently oppose pre emptive action regardless of the behaviour of the person involved

since the universal closure of old style mental institutions , seriously disturbed people end up in one of three places

1 . in prison

2. homeless

3. living with their long suffering immediete relatives

unfortunatley the overwhelming narrative is that no one should ever be institutionalised so a debate on the grey area which is the subject is impossible

the so called " care in the community " programe we have here is a bad joke , espoused by do gooders in the likes of the labour party

What exactly should this guy have been institutionalised for? What crimes had he committed before his murderous rampage?

EDIT: Also, what does Ireland have to do with this? How many murderous rampages have there been in Ireland in recent years?

Manic Moran

Just to keep the focus clear, the tally seems to be:

3 killed by knife
3 killed by gunfire
8 injured by gunfire
4 injured by vehicle.

But let's focus only on the guns...

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

Questions need to be asked as to why he was allowed to legally purchase a gun in the first place. Isnt there a psych evaluation and medical history and background check prior to any purchase?

I understand that if he really wanted a firearm he could get it one way or another but buying one legally shouldn't have been so easy. Has the system also failed the innocents that died yesterday?

Fair question. California has a ten-day waiting period for firearms purchases. (Put the money down, ten days later the government says yay or nay). The Constitutionality of this is currently under review in the courts systems (Most other States have figured out how to look up someone in the computer system in less than five minutes), but that's the way it stands right now.

There are two subsets.
1) What level of illness requires reporting by the mental health professional to the government system? Merely seeking psychiatric help is not, and should not be, a trigger for it. There has to be something more to it to indicate that the patient is likely to cause harm to himself or others. I doubt merely a diagnosis of some degree of Asperger's is sufficient to trigger this requirement.
2) The mechanism of the reporting system. This was the issue with Virginia Tech: The framework -should- have caught Cho, but the government, after passing this wonderful law to check mental history (to get lots of votes), didn't actually divert any money towards a coherent database to get all the systems to talk to one another. I do not know if California's state system is in a similar situation or not.

diveout

Manic Moran wrote: »

Just to keep the focus clear, the tally seems to be:

3 killed by knife
3 killed by gunfire
8 injured by gunfire
4 injured by vehicle.

But let's focus only on the guns...



Fair question. California has a ten-day waiting period for firearms purchases. (Put the money down, ten days later the government says yay or nay). The Constitutionality of this is currently under review in the courts systems (Most other States have figured out how to look up someone in the computer system in less than five minutes), but that's the way it stands right now.

There are two subsets.
1) What level of illness requires reporting by the mental health professional to the government system? Merely seeking psychiatric help is not, and should not be, a trigger for it. There has to be something more to it to indicate that the patient is likely to cause harm to himself or others. I doubt merely a diagnosis of some degree of Asperger's is sufficient to trigger this requirement.
2) The mechanism of the reporting system. This was the issue with Virginia Tech: The framework -should- have caught Cho, but the government, after passing this wonderful law to check mental history (to get lots of votes), didn't actually divert any money towards a coherent database to get all the systems to talk to one another. I do not know if California's state system is in a similar situation or not.

The other question is discrimination of Constitutional rights when it comes to mental illness. For example, is this not a thin edge of the wedge?

Amirani

no_shadow wrote: »

this guy in america was recognised as being disturbed by those close to him , that was sufficent reason to act , had action been taken , those innocent people would still be alive

They did act, police officers visited his residence and decided he wasn't a threat.

Or by act do you mean "forcibly institutionalise"? Should I be able to get a family member I don't like forcibly institutionalised or is that a terrible idea?

Corkfeen

Thomas D wrote: »

This guy gives alphas and true PUAs like myself a bad name.

Being a 'pickup artist' and 'alpha' gives yourself a bad name all on its own tbh. To describe yourself as such is egotistical and arrogant. You objectify women and tends toward being misogynistic. So really I don't feel much sympathy towards the bad name of fecking pickup artists.

Hande hoche!

Corkfeen wrote: »

Being a 'pickup artist' and 'alpha' gives yourself a bad name all on its own tbh. To describe yourself as such is egotistical and arrogant. You objectify women and tends toward being misogynistic. So really I don't feel much sympathy towards the bad name of fecking pickup artists.

Might have been traces of sarcasm in the original post.

Smidge

Diego Simeone wrote: »

They did act, police officers visited his residence and decided he wasn't a threat.

Or by act do you mean "forcibly institutionalise"? Should I be able to get a family member I don't like forcibly institutionalised or is that a terrible idea?

What has not liking a family member got to do with anything?
The family could have had him commited on mental health grounds(and given what we have read about his history, I would imagine this wouldn't have been too difficult).
They were also wealthy which would have made this much more accessible.

tvnutz

Read the last few pages of his "manifesto", disturbing to say the least. He talks about going to kill his little brother who is only a child because he didn't want the brother growing up to be one of the people he hated. Was the brother a victim? Or did he not go through with that part. His videos are so cringey as well, seriously messed up.

Amirani

no_shadow wrote: »

if proper disgression is used , its not a terrible idea to institutionalise someone before they carry out a ( lets talk about kevin ) act , unfortunatley hyperbole like " can i have someone i dont like locked up " does nothing to deal with the reality that some people are simply not well enough to be free

I don't think its feasible or ethical to institutionalise and psychoanalyse everybody who has a rant on the internet. Have a read of Reddit, Youtube comments and even the Ranting & Raving forum on Boards and you may get an idea how impractical that would be.

The idea of institutionalising people without a court order is extremely dangerous. Ireland has a terrible history of misuse and abuse in this area, some of which still exists today.

diveout

no_shadow wrote: »

if proper disgression is used , its not a terrible idea to institutionalise someone before they carry out a ( lets talk about kevin ) act , unfortunatley hyperbole like " can i have someone i dont like locked up " does nothing to deal with the reality that some people are simply not well enough to be free

In fairness, can you really lock up every nutjob ranting on youtube?

Amirani

Smidge wrote: »

What has not liking a family member got to do with anything?
The family could have had him commited on mental health grounds(and given what we have read about his history, I would imagine this wouldn't have been too difficult).
They were also wealthy which would have made this much more accessible.

On what mental health grounds could they have had him committed on? He was a legal adult and hadn't really done anything wrong outside of posting a few rants on the internet? He had been in college and seemed to not be any sort of genuine threat to himself or others.

Mackas_view

Foxhound38 wrote: »

How many times does some unhinged nutcase need to shoot up a school before the US does something about its gun culture?

There's so many guns over there now they would never clean it up.

eviltwin

no_shadow wrote: »

probably not but the current ( idealogically driven ) policy of completely ruling out taking action prior to an atrocity is insane ( no pun intended )

What do you suggest then?