7 dead in Californian Shooting

diveout

Diego Simeone wrote: »

On what mental health grounds could they have had him committed on? He was a legal adult and hadn't really done anything wrong outside of posting a few rants on the internet? He had been in college and seemed to not be any sort of genuine threat to himself or others.

Exactly. And psychiatry already has a dodgy history with facism. I wouldn't want to see it happen even more or again.

Chattastrophe!

tvnutz wrote: »

Read the last few pages of his "manifesto", disturbing to say the least. He talks about going to kill his little brother who is only a child because he didn't want the brother growing up to be one of the people he hated. Was the brother a victim? Or did he not go through with that part. His videos are so cringey as well, seriously messed up.

I was reading that ... imagine being the younger brother, reading of your brother's plans to kill you! :eek: Thankfully he was stopped before he got any further.

Smidge

Diego Simeone wrote: »

I don't think its feasible or ethical to institutionalise and psychoanalyse everybody who has a rant on the internet. Have a read of Reddit, Youtube comments and even the Ranting & Raving forum on Boards and you may get an idea how impractical that would be.

The idea of institutionalising people without a court order is extremely dangerous. Ireland has a terrible history of misuse and abuse in this area, some of which still exists today.

You can't institutionalise someone in California WITHOUT a court order.

Smidge

no_shadow wrote: »

its incredibly difficult to get someone committed in a liberal state like california , perhaps not as difficult as in ireland but very very hard to achieve

You're incorrect there, I'm afraid.
Its much easier to have someone committed in Ireland than it is in California

auldgranny

I think that we find it very difficult to understand why someone could do something as bad as this man did. We can understand why it hapoens that a person would kill someone who hurt them, kill someone to protect themselves or their family or even half understand why they could kill someone in a fit of rage or under the influence of drink or drugs. The human mind wants to understand how and why things happen and this is incomprehensible.

Now I am old fashioned. I don't know if he had asperger's syndrome or adhd or mental problems. But how about this. He did a bad thing because he was a bad person. No excuses or labels. He certainly seemed sane in the video. He was an evil person and that's why he did it.

Smidge

Diego Simeone wrote: »

On what mental health grounds could they have had him committed on? He was a legal adult and hadn't really done anything wrong outside of posting a few rants on the internet? He had been in college and seemed to not be any sort of genuine threat to himself or others.

Ah look, if you're going to purposely obtuse there's really no point.
He CLEARLY didn't wake up one morning a bit "iffy". He must have displayed signs of serious issues to family given his manifestos etc.And also, people with Aspergers do date/have relationships but quite clearly there were other reasons why women DIDN'T date him. He was wealthy, good-looking and educated. Not even a kiss!! That speaks volumes.
Its not only about someone posting a few weird videos on youtube etc.

His parents,had they been present and proactive in his life,(which we don't know if they were or were not but given the outcome I tend to fall on the side of not)would have know for many years(his own words in his video that he has been having "issues" for years) that there were serious issues surroundings this guy's mental health. I'd say "Red Flags" abounded with this guy.
Had they had him in treatment any psychiatrist would have been able to monitor him and if there were other psychological disorders present, diagnose and treat them. Had he have been under the care of any psychiatrist worth their salt they would have surely noticed that he had reached some sort of mental crisis that brought about him murdering innocent people. They may have been able to push for committal before that ever took place.

Manic Moran

diveout wrote: »

The other question is discrimination of Constitutional rights when it comes to mental illness. For example, is this not a thin edge of the wedge?

Only amongst the most hyperbolic. Few Constitutional rights are considered as absolute, and I have never personally encountered anyone arguing that those deemed mentally incompetent should still be given access to firearms.

On the other matter, unless the family member wanting their relative committed happens to be a mental health professional, I would not support confinement on their word.

bumper234

Smidge wrote: »

Ah look, if you're going to purposely obtuse there's really no point.
He CLEARLY didn't wake up one morning a bit "iffy". He must have displayed signs of serious issues to family given his manifestos etc.And also, people with Aspergers do date/have relationships but quite clearly there were other reasons why women DIDN'T date him. He was wealthy, good-looking and educated. Not even a kiss!! That speaks volumes.
Its not only about someone posting a few weird videos on youtube etc.

His parents,had they been present and proactive in his life,(which we don't know if they were or were not but given the outcome I tend to fall on the side of not)would have know for many years(his own words in his video that he has been having "issues" for years) that there were serious issues surroundings this guy's mental health. I'd say "Red Flags" abounded with this guy.
Had they had him in treatment any psychiatrist would have been able to monitor him and if there were other psychological disorders present, diagnose and treat them. Had he have been under the care of [b!]any psychiatrist worth their salt they would have surely noticed that he had reached some sort of mental crisis that brought about him murdering innocent people. They may have been able to push for committal before that ever took place.[/b]

Didn't the parents already admit he had seen many mental health professionals and even reported his recent behaviour to the police?

Shakespeare's Sister

auldgranny wrote: »

I don't know if he had asperger's syndrome or adhd or mental problems. But how about this. He did a bad thing because he was a bad person. No excuses or labels. He certainly seemed sane in the video. He was an evil person and that's why he did it.

Can still be the case if he had mental problems. It seems he's bound to have. I'd be surprised if he didn't.
It's not an excuse, just an acknowledgement.

The One Who Knocks

Had a look through his 140 page manifesto

Some seriously disturbing stuff in there.

the_monkey

I lived in Isla vista in 2000, 2002
They're was a similar incident when a guy rammed a load of people in his car on del playa drive , he was the son of some famous movie producer too - strange coincidence
It's a ****ed up society there tho . Not surprised every so often people snap

Azwaldo55

The One Who Knocks wrote: »

Had a look through his 140 page manifesto

Some seriously disturbing stuff in there.

What I have read so far his parents' divorce seems to have lit the fuse.

There is an interesting incident when he describes how he became separated from his class on an outing and this triggered a feeling of terror.

As the Jesuits said give me the boy and I will give you man.

The One Who Knocks

the_monkey wrote: »

I lived in Isla vista in 2000, 2002
They're was a similar incident when a guy rammed a load of people in his car on del playa drive , he was the son of some famous movie producer too - strange coincidence
It's a ****ed up society there tho . Not surprised every so often people snap

Oh yeah I read about that

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_Isla_Vista_massacre

There are very specific and stringent criteria that have to be met, both here and in the US. If he didn't meet the criteria in medical opinion, then his family were helpless in the process.

Smidge

bumper234 wrote: »

Didn't the parents already admit he had seen many mental health professionals and even reported his recent behaviour to the police?

That's all very possible.
My point is, if this were your child and you were involved enough with them, then you would know things were not right. If he had been my child, I wouldn't have rested till I got him help. I wouldn't have cared HOW many dr's he had to see until I found the right one that would HELP him. They had the money so that wasn't an issue. It could be a case of(and ironically its something that the "lower classes" get accused of quite frequently here) "Oh we brought him to the Doctor, he said its x/y/x. Sure what can I do about it?"
The ball was definitely dropped a long time ago.

Chattastrophe!

Sounds to me like the guy was a complete psychological mess from a very young age.

It seems that the parents did their best to get him the best care available, and they had the resources to do so.

Apparently, on his parents request, seven police officers arrived on his doorstep not long ago. This was because of the videos he'd posted. He says that he was scared because it would have all been over if they'd come in there and then and found the weapons in his bedroom.

But they didn't. If that story is true, then given the content of the videos, it's amazing he wasn't investigated further.

Corkfeen

Hande hoche! wrote: »

Might have been traces of sarcasm in the original post.

Sarcasm detector was broken today, I thought it was the guy who regularly praises PUA. :P

Azwaldo55

Chattastrophe! wrote: »

Sounds to me like the guy was a complete psychological mess from a very young age.

It seems that the parents did their best to get him the best care available, and they had the resources to do so.

Apparently, on his parents request, seven police officers arrived on his doorstep not long ago. This was because of the videos he'd posted. He says that he was scared because it would have all been over if they'd come in there and then and found the weapons in his bedroom.

But they didn't. If that story is true, then given the content of the videos, it's amazing he wasn't investigated further.

There are any number of disturbed people on youtube. The US is not a police state and law enforcement simply do not have the time or the resources to check up on every lunatic.

Standman

Foxhound38 wrote: »

How many times does some unhinged nutcase need to shoot up a school before the US does something about its gun culture?

Don't forget knife culture, he also stabbed three people to death.

Azwaldo55

Standman wrote: »

Don't forget knife culture, he also stabbed three people to death.

He also used his car to knock down some cyclists.

If he couldn't have got his hands on guns this crazy would have built himself a bomb or poisoned the water cooler.

bumper234

Smidge wrote: »

That's all very possible.
My point is, if this were your child and you were involved enough with them, then you would know things were not right. If he had been my child, I wouldn't have rested till I got him help. I wouldn't have cared HOW many dr's he had to see until I found the right one that would HELP him. They had the money so that wasn't an issue. It could be a case of(and ironically its something that the "lower classes" get accused of quite frequently here) "Oh we brought him to the Doctor, he said its x/y/x. Sure what can I do about it?"
The ball was definitely dropped a long time ago.

I vet what you're saying but at the end of the day if someone doesn't want help then there isn't much you can do. For all we know he made all the right moves and said all the right things to the doctors that made them think he was ok. Apart from locking him in his room 24/7 i don't think there was much his pare ts could have done.

bumper234

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

There are any number of disturbed people on youtube. The US is not a police state and law enforcement simply do not have the time or the resources to check up on every lunatic.

Even then you have to ask if they had the right under law? Not sure if they would have needed a warrant. Either way a lot of innocent people dead due to another shooting spree by a mentally unstable person with easy access to firearms.

Carlos Orange

bumper234 wrote: »

I vet what you're saying but at the end of the day if someone doesn't want help then there isn't much you can do. For all we know he made all the right moves and said all the right things to the doctors that made them think he was ok. Apart from locking him in his room 24/7 i don't think there was much his pare ts could have done.

There isn't much parents of mentally ill people can do once they are adults. It is a tough thing to be.

Smidge

bumper234 wrote: »

I vet what you're saying but at the end of the day if someone doesn't want help then there isn't much you can do. For all we know he made all the right moves and said all the right things to the doctors that made them think he was ok. Apart from locking him in his room 24/7 i don't think there was much his pare ts could have done.

Very true(first sentance in bold) but only really applies once he was older.

(Second sentance in bold)The parents apparently took him to dr's so they were obv aware of issues regardless of what the dr's thought. And if a child could fool a decent psychiatrist, well then he wouldn't be a decent psychiatrist

Azwaldo55

bumper234 wrote: »

Even then you have to ask if they had the right under law? Not sure if they would have needed a warrant. Either way a lot of innocent people dead due to another shooting spree by a mentally unstable person with easy access to firearms.

Banning guns or introducing stricter regulation of guns would make little difference in the U.S. such is the quantity of firearms in private hands.
Cops in the U.S. would have to be suicidal not to wear a gun and assume that every person they stop and search could potentially draw a gun and shoot them.
So what about private citizens who obey the law? Only law abiding would disarmed or would have their access to guns limited and restricted.
Criminals and maniacs don't obey laws and prohibition would be like ordering water not to be wet.
I have relatives in the U.S. and in their neighborhoods every house has a 9mm pistol, twelve gauge shotgun, hunting rifle and AR-15/AK-47.
Criminals and psychopaths have and do rob houses and rape/slaughter entire families.
If you call 9/11 often the cops will take nice photos of your mutilated body.

Munster46

the_monkey wrote: »

I lived in Isla vista in 2000, 2002
They're was a similar incident when a guy rammed a load of people in his car on del playa drive , he was the son of some famous movie producer too - strange coincidence
It's a ****ed up society there tho . Not surprised every so often people snap

What's so ****ed up about the society there?

Dontfadeaway

His family did make him see doctors and they got him life coaches to help with his social life. It's all in his manifesto. He was obsessed with girls, but i think even if he did get a girl he would still be unhappy.

Mars Bar

I'm quickly scanning the manifesto

He decided at the age of 14 that "Infamy is better than total obscurity."

His mother was very, very good to him it seemed. He loved being in her home because it was warm and kind although a lot of it had to do wit her giving him what he wanted too.

carraig2

Dontfadeaway wrote: »

His family did make him see doctors and they got him life coaches to help with his social life. It's all in his manifesto. He was obsessed with girls, but i think even if he did get a girl he would still be unhappy.

Or become so obsessed with the girl being his possession that she would never get to leave him and if she tried he would kill her.

Hande hoche!

carraig2 wrote: »

Or become so obsessed with the girl being his possession that she would never get to leave him and if she tried he would kill her.

Seems like the sort that would be into stalking or worse.