Cyclists mega-thread (WARNING: Before posting you must read post #1)

CramCycle

Aard wrote: »

No different than fining somebody on the Luas really is it? Except nobody's gonna bald-faced lie about their name and address to a Garda.

They might but Gardai have experience with this and if they suspect (doesn't have to be true) they can sieze the bicycle and potentially detain the person as well.

Spook_ie

beauf wrote: »

5 cops in the one spot, stopping cyclists. A lot of resources. They have no number plates though. How do they manage?

Aard wrote: »

No different than fining somebody on the Luas really is it? Except nobody's gonna bald-faced lie about their name and address to a Garda.

CramCycle wrote: »

They might but Gardai have experience with this and if they suspect (doesn't have to be true) they can sieze the bicycle and potentially detain the person as well.

Far easier to bring in identity cards like the Netherlands then

Although it is not compulsory to carry a proof of identity at all times, since 1 January 2005 it is compulsory to show identification, when an authorized officer asks for it, from the age of 14. An authorized officer can only do so under certain circumstances. Such circumstances include suspicious behaviour, committing any offense, or if a person is interviewed as a witness of a crime. Identity checks at events where the public order may be in danger are also allowed. Otherwise random identity checks by the police are not allowed in principle but can happen in certain areas such as a train station or doubtful areas i.e. redlight district, and a fine for not showing proof of identity may be successfully challenged in such cases. The fine for not being able to show proof of identity when legally required is €60.- (16 and over) or €30.- (14 or 15). Proof of identity is also required when opening a bank account and when entering an employment contract.[14]

end of the road

beauf wrote: »

Maybe require all drivers and cyclists to carry their PPS on them at all times. If identity is a problem.

Or maybe change the rules like Paris did allowing cyclist to go through a red light where appropriate.

absolutely not. no way should cyclists be able to have an exemption for running through red lights. red lights exist for a reason.

beauf

There's different reasons for lights.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_turn_on_red

beauf

Also this...

http://www.interfaithenergy.com/rss/131-stoplight-removal-in-philadelphia

Macy0161

end of the road wrote: »

sadly some cyclists miss behave, and sweeping that under the carpet and pretending cyclists don't break rules isn't going to end well. so we will have to make it law for every bike to have a number plate so they can easily be dealt with if they break the rules.

Number plates don't make motorised vehicle drivers abide by the rules, why would it make cyclists? It'd only work if there was enforcement, and if there's going to be enforcement, they could be doing it now and it doesn't need a number plate!

I'm getting more annoyed at the focus on just cyclists for breaking reds. Every morning when I'm on the roads, I see every category of road user break lights. Motorised vehicles going well beyond amber gambling*. Pedestrians not waiting for their lights/ crossing at a junction on the side without the ped crossing. Maybe pedestrians should have number plates too?

*The N11/ Kilmacud Road Lower/ Stillorgan Park Road junction is really ridiculous with cars crossing the N11 breaking the lights. Since I've been doing my current commute, every morning (without fail) the cyclist/ ped crossing on this junction going into town has a green, and there's still motorised vehicles coming from Stillorgan Park Road. This morning I counted 6 cars/ vans going through where I had a green.

Pinch Flat

Cycled in this morning. Cars break reds at almost every junction I pass - sure they're in a rush and the traffic is a nightmare, so it's ok, the odd cyclist as well breaking reds.

Also drivers here have a fascination with the yellow box - it's like a little game to see how many cars can be crammed into it - never mind blocking the traffic coming the other way when the light changes. Also blocking the cycle lane at Kevin St - making it impossible to pass and having to weave around cars plonked in the yellow box.

Also was confronted by a car coming up the cycle lane on the wrong side of the road to get a space on St Stephens green opposite loreto - sure he has his hazards on so that's ok.

Macy0161

Was unsure whether to mention the cops blocking the cycle lane so they could pull cars for driving in the bus lane, and then parking them in the cycle lane to ticket them this morning!

Orion

Saw a brilliant one yesterday in Maynooth. Cycling down Mill St there was a ground sign for the car tyre shop placed smack in the middle of the cycle lane. It's probably the only decent cycle lane in Maynooth. I picked it up and moved it off the cycle lane - I was in a rush back to work otherwise I'd have mentioned it to the manager. I will next time I see that.

CramCycle

Macy0161 wrote: »

Was unsure whether to mention the cops blocking the cycle lane so they could pull cars for driving in the bus lane, and then parking them in the cycle lane to ticket them this morning!

almost as good as the NYC guy who was told that obstruction or not you must remain in the bike lane, his video response is quite hilarious, particularly the last obstacle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzE-IMaegzQ

beauf

An oldie but a goldie.

RainyDay

end of the road wrote: »

sadly some cyclists miss behave, and sweeping that under the carpet and pretending cyclists don't break rules isn't going to end well. so we will have to make it law for every bike to have a number plate so they can easily be dealt with if they break the rules.

What percentage of law-breaking car drivers 'are easily dealt with if they break the law'? You know, the 2 or 3 or 4 cars who speed through the junction after the red, or the ones on their phone calling or Facebooking, or hell, even the ones with a missing brake light? What percentage of them get caught?

Spook_ie

RainyDay wrote: »

What percentage of law-breaking car drivers 'are easily dealt with if they break the law'? You know, the 2 or 3 or 4 cars who speed through the junction after the red, or the ones on their phone calling or Facebooking, or hell, even the ones with a missing brake light? What percentage of them get caught?

%wise, in all likely hood more than the cyclists, purely because there is a penalty system in operation and offenders can be traced via registration numbers. The fact that the RSA have statistics availiable for penalty points issued shows you to be barking up a wrong tree. Sure some drivers get away with it but then so do some murderers, drug dealers, burglars, rapists, cyclists etc. The GS can't be everywhere all the time.
http://www.rsa.ie/en/RSA/Road-Safety/Our-Research/Penalty-Point-Statistics/

RainyDay

Spook_ie wrote: »

%wise, in all likely hood more than the cyclists, purely because there is a penalty system in operation and offenders can be traced via registration numbers.[/url]

Perhaps not surprisingly, you're looking at only one side of the issue. You fail to look at the number of offences committed by drivers. How many times did you break the urban speed limit today? How many orange or even red lights did you go through? How many times did you have your phone in your hand?

Now add it all up and multiply it out, and see how useless the licencing system is at preventing breaches of road traffic law. And btw, cyclists do get prosecuted - thousands of them; http://irishcycle.com/2014/10/07/3200-irish-cyclists-summoned-to-court-in-ten-years/

Spook_ie

RainyDay wrote: »

Perhaps not surprisingly, you're looking at only one side of the issue. You fail to look at the number of offences committed by drivers. How many times did you break the urban speed limit today? How many orange or even red lights did you go through? How many times did you have your phone in your hand?

Now add it all up and multiply it out, and see how useless the licencing system is at preventing breaches of road traffic law. And btw, cyclists do get prosecuted - thousands of them; http://irishcycle.com/2014/10/07/3200-irish-cyclists-summoned-to-court-in-ten-years/

Oh yeah thats what 0.87 a day! Probably spot that many in 5 minutes at one set of lights if I was inclined, so you do the math instead

As to the number of times I broke the laws, very presumptious of you to infer that I broke any laws today or any day for that matter

monument

Spook_ie wrote: »

Sure some drivers get away with it but then so do some murderers, drug dealers, burglars, rapists, cyclists etc. The GS can't be everywhere all the time.

Compare general cycling or driving offences to rape or murder again and you will be infracted. This kind of over-the-top, provocative posting is viewed as trolling.

This thread is not a free-for-all.

-- Mod

RainyDay

Spook_ie wrote: »

Oh yeah thats what 0.87 a day! Probably spot that many in 5 minutes at one set of lights if I was inclined, so you do the math instead

Yes, I think perhaps I should do the maths rather than you doing the maths, because you seem to be struggling at some of the basics there.

Spook_ie wrote: »

As to the number of times I broke the laws, very presumptious of you to infer that I broke any laws today or any day for that matter

Are you seriously telling me that you didn't break the urban speed limit today? If yes, you are a very unusual driver and an absolutely unique taxi driver.

Spook_ie

RainyDay wrote: »

Yes, I think perhaps I should do the maths rather than you doing the maths, because you seem to be struggling at some of the basics there.


Are you seriously telling me that you didn't break the urban speed limit today? If yes, you are a very unusual driver and an absolutely unique taxi driver.

Perhaps you'd like to do the math then, from your link 3200 cyclists in 10 years, my math makes that 320 per year 3200/10

Divide that by 365 320/365 = 0.87 per day

From the article itself

– Over 350 brought to court for cycling by red lights last year in Dublin alone

Over 3,200 people were summoned to Irish courts for cycling road traffic offences between 2003 and 2013.

So lets see 350/365 is still only 0.95 per day


Again very presumptious of you to reckon I break any motoring laws as a taxi driver or otherwise

RainyDay

Spook_ie wrote: »

Perhaps you'd like to do the math then, from your link 3200 cyclists in 10 years, my math makes that 320 per year 3200/10

Divide that by 365 320/365 = 0.87 per day

From the article itself


So lets see 350/365 is still only 0.95 per day

Perhaps you missed it the first time I said, so I'll say it again. You're looking at one side only. Take off the blinkers.

Spook_ie wrote: »

Again very presumptious of you to reckon I break any motoring laws as a taxi driver or otherwise

So you're telling me that you never break the urban speed limit then? And you never drive around with a broken light bulb?

Pinch Flat

RainyDay wrote: »

Are you seriously telling me that you didn't break the urban speed limit today? If yes, you are a very unusual driver and an absolutely unique taxi driver.

I'd say in a very low minority. Driving standards are poor at the best of times. Taxi drivers have to be amongst the worst its a free for all. U turns out of the blue or the 'in' manoeuvre in dublin seems to be reversing backwards against the flow of traffic to either pick up a fare or take up a space in a rank. What about pulling in left to drop / collect a fare without warning / signalling - sure if it's a busy bike lane, roundabout or a street corner what does it matter?Or driving in bus lanes with no fares. Or parking on double yellows, creating impromptu ranks, even if it means bringing standstill to the street as the guy who parked outside the bookies on merrion row a couple of days back.

To continually give these one sided opinions and single out cyclists as the focus of all that is wrong with our roads is frankly laughable. There's plenty if plonkers out there on 2 and 4 wheels.

Aard

Seeing as this is the megathread, might as well drop my two cents in. I will preface this by saying that generally Dublin Bus (and not other bus companies) drivers are courteous or at least conscientious towards my when I'm on my bike. Taxi drivers -- less so, to understate in the extreme. The worst offences are speeding and sudden stopping. In fact, the sudden stopping I can live with (as in literally live and not die from), whereas the speeding can be frightening. Yes, non-taxis speed too, but I find in the city centre (30kmph zone my arse) that taxi drivers are most often the culprits.

Spook_ie

RainyDay wrote: »

What percentage of law-breaking car drivers 'are easily dealt with if they break the law'? You know, the 2 or 3 or 4 cars who speed through the junction after the red, or the ones on their phone calling or Facebooking, or hell, even the ones with a missing brake light? What percentage of them get caught?

RainyDay wrote: »

Perhaps you missed it the first time I said, so I'll say it again. You're looking at one side only. Take off the blinkers.


So you're telling me that you never break the urban speed limit then? And you never drive around with a broken light bulb?

And which set of blinkers are you wearing?


I'm telling you to stop accusing me of breaking laws, I haven't accused you.

Now if you're ready to actually debate the whys and wherefores instead of casting your needless aspersions around we'll continue...

Using data for 2012 as NDLS only provide that month online

In Dec 2012 there were 2,666,559 learner and driver permits in Ireland (source NDLS.ie)

16
What is the total number of learner permits and driving licences in Ireland at the present?
As of 31st December 2012 there were 271,428 learner permits and 2,395,131 full driving licences in Ireland

In Dec 2012 there were 826,554 Drivers issued with PPs of which 339,496 were recorded as no driver number i.e foreign or NI drivers, so 487,058 holders of Irish Drivers Licenses received PP's
{source RSA.IE http://www.rsa.ie/en/RSA/Road-Safety/Our-Research/Penalty-Point-Statistics/)

So just over 18% of Irish drivers received PPs in Dec 2012, so now tell me in all honesty that there is no/little enforcement

Edit. I might mail the RSA as I'm not sure if that's a cumulative total or a monthly total, I suspect cumulative

Now I wonder just what percentage of cyclists were prosecuted as a comparison for RLJ, Cycling on footpaths etc?

Spook_ie

Pinch Flat wrote: »

I'd say in a very low minority. Driving standards are poor at the best of times. Taxi drivers have to be amongst the worst its a free for all. U turns out of the blue or the 'in' manoeuvre in dublin seems to be reversing backwards against the flow of traffic to either pick up a fare or take up a space in a rank. What about pulling in left to drop / collect a fare without warning / signalling - sure if it's a busy bike lane, roundabout or a street corner what does it matter?Or driving in bus lanes with no fares. Or parking on double yellows, creating impromptu ranks, even if it means bringing standstill to the street as the guy who parked outside the bookies on merrion row a couple of days back.

To continually give these one sided opinions and single out cyclists as the focus of all that is wrong with our roads is frankly laughable. There's plenty if plonkers out there on 2 and 4 wheels.

I don't ( contrary to most boards.ie cyclist's opinions ) single out cyclists, I do point out the inefficiencies of legislating for cyclists given the lack of identification on or being carried by cyclists and some cyclist's presumed immunity from the law by virtue of being unidentifiable.

As to your points of some taxi drivers behavior, I agree, absolutely reprehensible, and I for one would welcome a driving test aspect to the issue of taxi drivers licenses, however, so many people would object that it would seem an impossibility to achieve.

I actually wrote to the Taxi Regulator to ask why can't we at least have ALL taxi drivers being required to have Irish driving licenses that are endorsable for driving offenses but this is apparently against EU regulations.

But one point that I have mentioned before ( possibly in a previous reply to you, possibly someone else mentioned the same erroneous statement ) but taxis are allowed to use bus lanes when plying for hire, also taxis are permitted to stop on clearways ( during clearway times ) for the purposes of picking up or dropping off passengers.

I believe their should be some education to pedestrians as to where isn't a good idea to flag down a taxi but there y'go I also think it's a good idea to educate cyclists on road regulations before allowing them out, but then again there y'go

CramCycle

Spook_ie wrote: »

I don't ( contrary to most boards.ie cyclist's opinions ) single out cyclists, I do point out the inefficiencies of legislating for cyclists given the lack of identification on or being carried by cyclists and some cyclist's presumed immunity from the law by virtue of being unidentifiable.

Most cyclists on boards agree that the lack of FPNs is ridiculous but they have also in several threads pointed out the ridiculous idea of licensing cyclists, why it's a bad idea and why it won't work unless you think I should pay 250euro a year for my son to cycle when he is 5. Not too mention get a license etc.

As to your points of some taxi drivers behavior, I agree, absolutely reprehensible, and I for one would welcome a driving test aspect to the issue of taxi drivers licenses, however, so many people would object that it would seem an impossibility to achieve.

I don't think that many would fight it. Many taxi drivers I meet complain about the volume of drivers competing. Anything that would potentially filter this down might meet more support than you would expect.

I actually wrote to the Taxi Regulator to ask why can't we at least have ALL taxi drivers being required to have Irish driving licenses that are endorsable for driving offenses but this is apparently against EU regulations.

It is however not illegal to have an entrance exam or a repeatable exam for the holding of a licence. A pass rate of 70% for a best route/time of day aptitude test would also filter out alot of inept taxi drivers like it does in London.

I believe their should be some education to pedestrians as to where isn't a good idea to flag down a taxi but there y'go I also think it's a good idea to educate cyclists on road regulations before allowing them out, but then again there y'go

But surely the onus is on the taxi driver to not stop on corners or pull in dangerously. Just because a pedestrian flags you doesn't mean you don't have an obligation to wait to an appropriate place to pull in.

Completely agree about the education, why this is not part of the national school curriculum is beyond my comprehension.

Jawgap

Other countries manage their taxis and taxi drivers much better.

The general theory is that when you have quantitative de-regulation it should be balanced by qualitative re-regulation in other words you lift the bar on numbers but put in place higher quality standards.

Ireland did the de-regulation and never did the re-regulation because taxi drivers objected to, a proper driver testing and registration regime; proper vehicle standards and liveries (I don't think, for example, EU Full Type Approval has been brought in here); and proper driver fitness criteria.

They don't want an objectively fair system because it would mean that some of those who've obtained grandfather rights would lose them - in short they want a two tier regulatory system that benefits the incumbents.

Now they are complaining there are too many taxis!

Macy0161

Aard wrote: »

In fact, the sudden stopping I can live with (as in literally live and not die from), whereas the speeding can be frightening.

If anyone watched 24 Hours in A&E last night, there are consequences to running into the back of a vehicle. In the last month I've had to emergency stop 3 or 4 times because of taxis practically doing an emergency stop and swinging in in front of me into the cycle lane/ bus stop. Responsibility for that is 100% with the driver - to try and shift that to the customer is ridiculous.

They're by far the worst for beeping you out of it/ trying to squeeze past/ intimidate you if you dare to be in the bus lane when there's a cycle lane. The fact that the cycle lane is bumpy and full off wet leaves, and that you're legally entitled to be on the road, doesn't seem to matter to them.

Regarding cyclists, I am 100% in favour of Fixed Penalty Notices. I don't think licencing is practical at all (even to down to how a plate would be mounted that would make it visible for camera/ remote identification). There should be much greater enforcement on the roads - cameras at traffic lights to catch motorised vehicles, and to identify junctions where cyclist and pedestrians are a danger to themselves or other road users which could then be targeted.

Pinch Flat

Spook_ie wrote: »

I don't ( contrary to most boards.ie cyclist's opinions ) single out cyclists, I do point out the inefficiencies of legislating for cyclists given the lack of identification on or being carried by cyclists and some cyclist's presumed immunity from the law by virtue of being unidentifiable.

We'll agree to disagree there. I find it peculiar that you cosnstently call for licencing cyclists, while anyone with a driving licence can drive a taxi - no training necessary. This is obvious in the standard of PSV driving out there.

Spook_ie wrote: »

As to your points of some taxi drivers behavior, I agree, absolutely reprehensible, and I for one would welcome a driving test aspect to the issue of taxi drivers licenses, however, so many people would object that it would seem an impossibility to achieve.

I actually wrote to the Taxi Regulator to ask why can't we at least have ALL taxi drivers being required to have Irish driving licenses that are endorsable for driving offenses but this is apparently against EU regulations.

Fair enough, a test would set some sort of standard. I think you'll find though that a lot of road users (motorists and cyclists alike) find taxi driving standards to be poor at the best of times. It's a mixture of 'sure I'm a taxi I cab stop anywhere' attitude at one end of the scale to down right aggressive / abusive driving at the other end.

Spook_ie wrote: »

But one point that I have mentioned before ( possibly in a previous reply to you, possibly someone else mentioned the same erroneous statement ) but taxis are allowed to use bus lanes when plying for hire, also taxis are permitted to stop on clearways ( during clearway times ) for the purposes of picking up or dropping off passengers.

I believe their should be some education to pedestrians as to where isn't a good idea to flag down a taxi but there y'go I also think it's a good idea to educate cyclists on road regulations before allowing them out, but then again there y'go

Ok, so checkefd oiut the following link:http://www.nationaltransport.ie/taxi-and-bus-licensing/taxi/operating-an-spsv/bus-lanes/

Which says:

"A taxi can use a normal (with-flow) bus lane only while it is operating as an SPSV – carrying a passenger, on the way to pick up a pre-booked customer, or plying for hire. Taxis must not use bus lanes if they are not operating as an SPSV – for example, driving home at the end of a shift, travelling on personal business, or transporting only goods and not passengers.

Taxis are not allowed to use contra-flow bus lanes (in which traffic travels in the opposite direction to the traffic beside it) under any circumstances.

Hackneys and limousines are not permitted to use bus lanes."

I personally don't have an issue with taxi's using bus lanes - it's how they use them around cyclists - I find (in my own experience as a driver, cyclist and passenger in a taxi) a lot of taxi drivers will squeeze by anyway whether their entitled to use the lane or not.

One of the difficulties in interpreting whether a taxi can use a lane or not probably lies in the inconsistency to which they use the roof light. So light off - hand out, taxi stops and takes fare. Taxi full - light on - taxi passes. In reality it's saying taxi's can use bus lanes all the time. Very difficult to police.

Spook_ie wrote: »

I believe their should be some education to pedestrians as to where isn't a good idea to flag down a taxi but there y'go I also think it's a good idea to educate cyclists on road regulations before allowing them out, but then again there y'go

No, disagree. The taxi driver is the one in the fast moving car and should be aware of their surroundings, and especially other vulnerable road users, especially when taking a fare.

RainyDay

Spook_ie wrote: »

And which set of blinkers are you wearing?
I'm telling you to stop accusing me of breaking laws, I haven't accused you.

I don't do accusations. I've asked you a question, as to whether you've ever or frequently broken the urban speed limit. I note that you've avoided giving a straight answer.

Spook_ie wrote: »

Using data for 2012 as NDLS only provide that month online

In Dec 2012 there were 2,666,559 learner and driver permits in Ireland (source NDLS.ie)


In Dec 2012 there were 826,554 Drivers issued with PPs of which 339,496 were recorded as no driver number i.e foreign or NI drivers, so 487,058 holders of Irish Drivers Licenses received PP's
{source RSA.IE http://www.rsa.ie/en/RSA/Road-Safety/Our-Research/Penalty-Point-Statistics/)

So just over 18% of Irish drivers received PPs in Dec 2012, so now tell me in all honesty that there is no/little enforcement

Edit. I might mail the RSA as I'm not sure if that's a cumulative total or a monthly total, I suspect cumulative

Now I wonder just what percentage of cyclists were prosecuted as a comparison for RLJ, Cycling on footpaths etc?

I didn't say that there was no/little enforcement. But your figures are fairly meaningless for comparison against the cyclist figures, until you factor in the distance travelled and the frequency of undetected offences.

Give what we all see all around everyday, with drivers routinely breaking red lights, using their phones and failing to have proper brake lights, the idea that a licensing system results in compliance with road traffic law is nonsense.

If you want more compliance, get more enforcement - for drivers, cyclists and pedestrians. If you want to save lives, focus on the road group that kills 200+ people each year and maims thousands of others.

Take your pick...

Spook_ie

RainyDay wrote: »

I don't do accusations. I've asked you a question, as to whether you've ever or frequently broken the urban speed limit. I note that you've avoided giving a straight answer.


I didn't say that there was no/little enforcement. But your figures are fairly meaningless for comparison against the cyclist figures, until you factor in the distance travelled and the frequency of undetected offences.

Give what we all see all around everyday, with drivers routinely breaking red lights, using their phones and failing to have proper brake lights, the idea that a licensing system results in compliance with road traffic law is nonsense.

If you want more compliance, get more enforcement - for drivers, cyclists and pedestrians. If you want to save lives, focus on the road group that kills 200+ people each year and maims thousands of others.

Take your pick...

Yeah sure, so we have Dublin Bikes alone , 7,000,000 plus uses since launch in 2009
http://www.dublinbikes.ie/Magazine/Reports/Coca-Cola-Zero-dublinbikes-the-stats!
and even if all the 3200 prosecutions for the last 10 years were attributed just to Dublin Bike rental users in the last 5 years, your prosecution rate is 4.5% of users, so pretty fair conclusion that the enforcement of cyclists is just above ZERO, a far cry from your original statement in reply to end of the road which is proven to be misleading just by the imbalance of prosecutions

end of the road wrote: »

sadly some cyclists miss behave, and sweeping that under the carpet and pretending cyclists don't break rules isn't going to end well. so we will have to make it law for every bike to have a number plate so they can easily be dealt with if they break the rules.

RainyDay wrote: »

What percentage of law-breaking car drivers 'are easily dealt with if they break the law'? You know, the 2 or 3 or 4 cars who speed through the junction after the red, or the ones on their phone calling or Facebooking, or hell, even the ones with a missing brake light? What percentage of them get caught?

Jawgap

Spook_ie wrote: »

Yeah sure, so we have Dublin Bikes alone , 7,000,000 plus uses since launch in 2009
http://www.dublinbikes.ie/Magazine/Reports/Coca-Cola-Zero-dublinbikes-the-stats!
and even if all the 3200 prosecutions for the last 10 years were attributed just to Dublin Bike rental users in the last 5 years, your prosecution rate is 4.5% of users, so pretty fair conclusion that the enforcement of cyclists is just above ZERO, a far cry from your original statement in reply to end of the road which is proven to be misleading just by the imbalance of prosecutions

they're not individual uses - they're 'uses' - some users (most I'd imagine) will make multiple journeys. I've used the scheme three times this week, and I'd consider myself to be a fairly light user.

Plus, 3200 as a % of 7,000,000 is 0.045% not 4.5%.

RainyDay

Spook_ie wrote: »

Yeah sure, so we have Dublin Bikes alone , 7,000,000 plus uses since launch in 2009
http://www.dublinbikes.ie/Magazine/Reports/Coca-Cola-Zero-dublinbikes-the-stats!
and even if all the 3200 prosecutions for the last 10 years were attributed just to Dublin Bike rental users in the last 5 years, your prosecution rate is 4.5% of users, so pretty fair conclusion that the enforcement of cyclists is just above ZERO, a far cry from your original statement in reply to end of the road which is proven to be misleading just by the imbalance of prosecutions

And you're still choosing to ignore;

1) the mileage driven by motorists
2) the number of offences committed by motorists
3) my question about whether you ever break the urban speed limit

They're some blinkers all right.

For the record, I didn't make any 'statement' to end of the road. I asked some questions.

Pinch Flat

RainyDay wrote: »

And you're still choosing to ignore;

1) the mileage driven by motorists
2) the number of offences committed by motorists
3) my question about whether you ever break the urban speed limit

They're some blinkers all right.

For the record, I didn't make any 'statement' to end of the road. I asked some questions.

Loving end of the roads number plate suggestion though. It comes up again and again and again (and again) and is never going to

A) happen
work

CramCycle

Spook_ie wrote: »

Yeah sure, so we have Dublin Bikes alone , 7,000,000 plus uses since launch in 2009
http://www.dublinbikes.ie/Magazine/Reports/Coca-Cola-Zero-dublinbikes-the-stats!
and even if all the 3200 prosecutions for the last 10 years were attributed just to Dublin Bike rental users in the last 5 years, your prosecution rate is 4.5% of users, so pretty fair conclusion that the enforcement of cyclists is just above ZERO, a far cry from your original statement in reply to end of the road which is proven to be misleading just by the imbalance of prosecutions

There are far less cyclists on the roads, those that are on the roads presumably do far less mileage on their bikes than someone who solely drives a car. On the balance of probability, you are going to have far more motorists charged with offences than cyclists due to sheer volume of numbers.

Every morning I see loads of motorists breaking the rules of the road, I see many cyclists breaking the rules of the road and I see a few Bus drivers breaking the rules of the road.

Number of operators in Dublin:
Private Car drivers: Loads
Cyclists: Many
Buses: A few

Number of convictions for breach of the RTA:
Private Car drivers: Loads
Cyclists: Many
Buses: A few

Fair enough, made up the figures :P but I hope you get my point, whether cyclists are licensed or not, it won't make a difference. The Gardai cannot be everywhere, and unfortunately people know this, and use it to their advantage.

I have reported vehicles before for dangerous driving, with video evidence and license plates, and an admission of guilt from the driver, and nothing was done about it. The truth is, without the manpower, cameras on lights (which will catch cyclists) and some minor changes (more FPNs for all road users), nothing will change much.

TL:DR , the prosecution rate among cyclists compared to motorists as a percentage of miles travelled or sheer numbers of journeys, they are more than likely alot closer than you think, and I imagine, below 1% for both groups.

Spook_ie

CramCycle wrote: »

There are far less cyclists on the roads, those that are on the roads presumably do far less mileage on their bikes than someone who solely drives a car. On the balance of probability, you are going to have far more motorists charged with offences than cyclists due to sheer volume of numbers.

Every morning I see loads of motorists breaking the rules of the road, I see many cyclists breaking the rules of the road and I see a few Bus drivers breaking the rules of the road.

Number of operators in Dublin:
Private Car drivers: Loads
Cyclists: Many
Buses: A few

Number of convictions for breach of the RTA:
Private Car drivers: Loads
Cyclists: Many Negligable
Buses: A few

Fair enough, made up the figures :P but I hope you get my point, whether cyclists are licensed or not, it won't make a difference. The Gardai cannot be everywhere, and unfortunately people know this, and use it to their advantage.

I have reported vehicles before for dangerous driving, with video evidence and license plates, and an admission of guilt from the driver, and nothing was done about it. The truth is, without the manpower, cameras on lights (which will catch cyclists) and some minor changes (more FPNs for all road users), nothing will change much.

TL:DR , the prosecution rate among cyclists compared to motorists as a percentage of miles travelled or sheer numbers of journeys, they are more than likely alot closer than you think, and I imagine, below 1% for both groups.

FYP

As to the prosecutions, as stated before which people seem to like to ignore, prosecutions for cyclists entail a Gard taking a day in court, their reluctance to prosecute is probably just for that reason, but that isn't a reason to constantly harp on about "what about the drivers that don't get caught" when there is virtualy zero chance as a cyclist as compared to 18% as a motorist

As I've also said before putting points onto cyclists driving licenses for breaking redlights would be an excellant idea and is an option already under Irish Law according to this solicitors blog
http://barronmorris.com/blog/2014/02/08/cyclists-and-road-traffic-offences/
Jawgaps correction to 0.045% Thankyou

Spook_ie

Jawgap wrote: »

they're not individual uses - they're 'uses' - some users (most I'd imagine) will make multiple journeys. I've used the scheme three times this week, and I'd consider myself to be a fairly light user.

Plus, 3200 as a % of 7,000,000 is 0.045% not 4.5%.

Wouldn't probably make a difference if it was 7,000,000 users doing 1 trip or 1 user doing 7,000,000 trips ( other than he'd probably have a sore backside ) or any combination in between, as it's a figure to show how many cycle trips were made in Dublin alone just on Dublin Bikes, add to that the number of privately owned cycles making trips throughout the country for the same time period

Thankyou for the correction, I hate my calculator at times, but it shows even worse for the comparitive %'s

Jawgap

Your calculations make no account of either the length of journey time or length of trip - which makes it impossible to establish if the level of conviction / enforcement is high, medium, low or even negligible as I believe the correct approach here would be to conduct a probabilistic anaylsis using the usage data from the DB system and the enforcement time availability from AGS.

You have two data points - you can't read anything good or bad into any combination of them.

RainyDay

Jawgap wrote: »

Your calculations make no account of either the length of journey time or length of trip - which makes it impossible to establish if the level of conviction / enforcement is high, medium, low or even negligible as I believe the correct approach here would be to conduct a probabilistic anaylsis using the usage data from the DB system and the enforcement time availability from AGS.

And he's also taking no account of the number of occasions that motorists break the law. Just look at the number of cars breaking the urban speed limit on any urban road to put this in context.

And he's taking no account of the relative risk of damage caused. Remind me again, is it cyclists that kill 200+ people each year and maim thousands of others?

Aard

The "statistics" being bandied about here are laughable. Apple, meet orange.

CramCycle

Aard wrote: »

The "statistics" being bandied about here are laughable. Apple, meet orange.

I'll meet your statistics and raise you. I present my favourite form of internet evidence, the most trustworthy of all, "anecdotal" evidence.

CramCycle

Spook_ie wrote: »

FYP

As to the prosecutions, as stated before which people seem to like to ignore, prosecutions for cyclists entail a Gard taking a day in court, their reluctance to prosecute is probably just for that reason, but that isn't a reason to constantly harp on about "what about the drivers that don't get caught" when there is virtualy zero chance as a cyclist as compared to 18% as a motorist

And pretty much every cyclists posting here has called for the introduction of FPNs, not licensing or number plates, but FPNs, the legislation is ready to go, easy to operate, and for some reason, it has not been implemented.

SeanW

RainyDay wrote: »

And he's also taking no account of the number of occasions that motorists break the law. Just look at the number of cars breaking the urban speed limit on any urban road to put this in context.

"Urban roads" like this?

As a pedestrian, I do not have to worry about speeding motorists because I'm on the footpath and they're on the road, where they mostly treat red lights as absolutes. I also do not have to worry about motorists driving on footpaths and pedestrian areas.

Yet cyclists break each of these rules in a profligate fashion, and despite me seeing cyclists break laws up to 100 times a day - on occasions threatening my safety in the process, I've only once in two years seen a cyclist held to account - a cyclist had been stopped by the Guards on Grafton Street.

Get your own house in order before you start going on about lawbreaking by others.

Pinch Flat

SeanW wrote: »

"Urban roads" like this?

As a pedestrian, I do not have to worry about speeding motorists because I'm on the footpath and they're on the road, where they mostly treat red lights as absolutes. I also do not have to worry about motorists driving on footpaths and pedestrian areas

Where is this utopia you talk of? Red light breaking by cars happens at almost every junction on my commute from suburban to Central Dublin.

Speeding motorists are a constant to threat pedestrians - breaking a red at pedestrian crossings is quite common, to the extent I'll never trust a green man until I'm 100% sure the cars are stopped both ways. Have been nearly ploughed out of it so many times by drivers who are too happy to ignore these.

monument

SeanW wrote: »

As a pedestrian, I do not have to worry about speeding motorists because I'm on the footpath and they're on the road, where they mostly treat red lights as absolutes. I also do not have to worry about motorists driving on footpaths and pedestrian areas.

Parking on -- and thus also driving on --footpaths is at epidemic levels in Ireland. It's strange that you're unware of this.

Motorists also have a habit of driving onto footpaths when they crash - them hitting signs, bollards etc which are on footpaths is not uncommon and hitting people on footpaths is sadly less common that many people think.

http://www.thejournal.ie/pedestrians-jervis-street-749913-Jan2013/

SeanW wrote: »

Yet cyclists break each of these rules in a profligate fashion, and despite me seeing cyclists break laws up to 100 times a day - on occasions threatening my safety in the process, I've only once in two years seen a cyclist held to account - a cyclist had been stopped by the Guards on Grafton Street.

Get your own house in order before you start going on about lawbreaking by others.

Never mind 100 times a day, you could see 100 pedestrians jaywalking in half a hour in Dublin city centre -- err... Does that mean you have to "Get your own house in order before you start going on about lawbreaking by others"?

And if you want to wear your motorist hat, an hour at many junctions would show 100 motorists far from treating traffic lights as absolutes.

suicide_circus

From my experience, about 10% of cyclists in Dublin city centre obey traffic lights. I say this as a Dublin city centre cyclist.

Mucco

SeanW wrote: »

As a pedestrian, I do not have to worry about speeding motorists because I'm on the footpath and they're on the road, where they mostly treat red lights as absolutes. I also do not have to worry about motorists driving on footpaths and pedestrian areas.

You may not worry, but you're much more likely to be killed by a car mounting the footpath than by a bike:

RSA Provisional Review of Road Crashes 2013: Pedestrian Fatalities wrote:

Vehicle involved: In the majority of cases, a car was involved in the pedestrian fatality (23 fatalities). HGV’s were involved in 2 fatalities, Vans also in 2 fatalities. There was 1 fatality involving a motorcycle, 1 involving a bus and 1 involving a tele-porter.

One of the car fatalities was classified as "Car mounted footpath".

Link: http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Road%20Safety/Crash%20Stats/Provisional%20Review%20of%20Road%20Crash%202013.pdf

RainyDay

SeanW wrote: »

As a pedestrian, I do not have to worry about speeding motorists because I'm on the footpath and they're on the road, where they mostly treat red lights as absolutes.

Absolutes? Bwaahaahaa, you're joking, right? Red lights as absolutes? Do you wear blinkers on the road that cause you not to see this stuff?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45YTXXqBCdk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGNdF6Unj9Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlSCSqvrXBI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCBRzLNCNto

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySxPg7LNQus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DSJjSbxJ98

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ij9r_lWaVZg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lh0jvw2VJkE

Sorry if this comes as a shock to you, and I’ll be happy to post more examples if this really comes as a surprise to you. But really, many motorists do not treat red lights as absolutes, unless you mean ‘I absolutely must get through this junction now regardless of the danger to others’.

SeanW wrote: »

I also do not have to worry about motorists driving on footpaths and pedestrian areas.

Slightly less, so just bwaaha for this one. How often do you see cars parked on footpaths? How do you think they got there?

SeanW wrote: »

Get your own house in order before you start going on about lawbreaking by others.

I’ve no idea why you would try to hold me responsible for the actions of other cyclists? I don’t hold you responsible for the actions of other pedestrians or other drivers. There are crap drivers, crap pedestrians and crap cyclists out there. I don’t think anyone suggests otherwise.
But remind me again, which road group is it that kills 200+ people each year and maims thousands of others?

CramCycle

I don't own a house to get in order, might tidy my rented one before I post again :pac:

Orion

monument wrote: »

I hope somebody calls the clampers on you -- you're not allowed to park inside a solid white centre line on a street with just one traffic lane (unless there's marked parking spaces).

Like these two last night? While I was waiting for a bus across the road these two just parked up and I saw a number of cyclists having to do into the car lane to get around them.

Macy0161

SeanW wrote: »

As a pedestrian, I do not have to worry about speeding motorists because I'm on the footpath and they're on the road, where they mostly treat red lights as absolutes. I also do not have to worry about motorists driving on footpaths and pedestrian areas.

This is a nonsense - the level of compliance with Red lights by all road users is shocking. Next time you cut it fine on an amber on a Dublin commute, check your mirrors for how many came through behind? If you brake for an amber, you're regularly beeped/ flashed out of it for bloody stopping!

I've already given my anecdotal evidence from my commute of one particular junction - this morning I hit a red wave, and at every junction the whole way in, I had a green and motorised vehicles were still crossing in front of me. So my arse are cyclists the only road users to break reds (incidentally, at two of those junctions, pedestrians also dodged traffic to jay walk a red man).

I regularly come across cars parked in shared use pedestrian/ cycle lanes, forcing cyclists and pedestrians out into the road. It seems to be accepted practice for breakdowns to move into these areas and force the most vulnerable road users out into the traffic, rather than leave it in the bus lane. That's not even mentioning parked cars - church and schools trump cyclelanes and footpaths.

I'll repeat, as a cyclist and motorist, more (or every) junction should have red light cameras. It would actually speed up traffic, as after a while when compliance increases, signals could alter. If particular junctions are revealed to be dangerous in terms of cyclist red light jumpers, these could be targeted. There should be fixed penalty notices for cyclists. Licencing just isn't practical for many reasons. Motorists with a bee in their bonnet on cyclists should be pushing for this, as I think garda enforcement would increase without the ballache for them of summons and court.

Pinch Flat

All good points. I think a 'turn left on red' for cyclists and motorists (provided it is safe to do so) would be a good move