Cyclists mega-thread (WARNING: Before posting you must read post #1)

CramCycle

Pinch Flat wrote: »

All good points. I think a 'turn left on red' for cyclists and motorists (provided it is safe to do so) would be a good move

Works in countries where it was always there, and people respect it. Considering the concept of a red light seems difficult for a subset of all road users, giving them an excuse to do it seems lunacy. Maybe an idea to revisit when we see higher rates of compliance with the laws we already have.

Pinch Flat

Orion wrote: »

Like these two last night? While I was waiting for a bus across the road these two just parked up and I saw a number of cyclists having to do into the car lane to get around them.

Similar situation (with private cars) at the South East of St Stephens green - the road had been resurfaced and the cycle lane realigned which is much better. Unfortunately this has become a handy drop off zone for a school nearby. Spoke to one yummy mummy who along with about 3 or 4 other cars park in a busy cycle lane while dropping their little madams off. Her reaction said it all. My attitude is if you can afford to put your little darling through a posh private school, you can afford a few euros to park legally and responsibly.

Macy0161

Cops putting revenue raising above road safety this morning on the N11. Again, pulling cars for being in the bus lane before Brewery Road inbound and parking both themselves and offenders in the cycle lane. This morning it was on a fully separated bit, so forced cyclists down a kerb and onto the road. And they still weren't pulled in enough to let buses past anyway - might as well have just stopped them in the bus lane.

It's a section of the road I really don't know what my best approach is. The cycle lane is in pretty poor condition especially with tree roots breaking up the surface, is a shared space for a downhill, dumps you in a bus stop, and now regular blockages with the Gardai. However, when I take the road (which is my preferred option on this section), I'm regularly beeped out of it and attempts to squeeze me out of it, particularly by taxi's and private buses.

Macy0161

N11 a bit of a disaster the last week or so. Outbound, there's random roadworks blocking the cycle path, without real warning, so you have to go off the kerb (they don't give notice at the driveway/ junction before).

This morning, dlr decided the morning rush hour was the right time to road sweep the in bound cycle lane between kilmacud road and trees road. Now the leaves badly needed clearing, but the timing sucked.

dubscottie

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10206283994203301&set=a.10206283972842767.1073742067.1369415804&type=3&theater

Solid white line.. But the Idiot on the motorbike an the other in the car thinks its OK..

But worse is the cyclists on the wrong side of the road.. It is illegal unless you have a road closure order.

Glad to see 20+ cyclists stopped by the Garda at Harolds Cross for jumping lights ..

CramCycle

Picture conveniently missing the Garda squad car 30 metres in front that was leading them out on roads with rolling closures.

Glad to see people getting done for red light jumping though.

Spook_ie

CramCycle wrote: »

Picture conveniently missing the Garda squad car 30 metres in front that was leading them out on roads with rolling closures.

Glad to see people getting done for red light jumping though.

Not so sure it's what I'd term a rolling closure


To my mind a rolling closure would have to stop traffic in both directions, like the Giro D'Italia, perhaps it was more of a Garda escort who wouldn't be particularly concerned about what was happening immediately behind himself as long as no one was getting squished

CramCycle

Spook_ie wrote: »

Not so sure it's what I'd term a rolling closure


To my mind a rolling closure would have to stop traffic in both directions, like the Giro D'Italia, perhaps it was more of a Garda escort who wouldn't be particularly concerned about what was happening immediately behind himself as long as no one was getting squished

Being there myself, the Gardai were operating a rolling closure. There was directions given to traffic to stop and two motorcycle Marshall at that junction. One directly behind the camera stopping oncoming traffic and one to the left of the camera who was stopping traffic, it happens that people panic when given directions maybe there was an error made, maybe it was safer than the picture gives the impression. When I came round traffic was stopted at the junction. It was not a race and the pace was controlled so it's quite possible that with the drop in speed in the town the Marshall were OK letting some traffic go, you would have to ask them though..

Pinch Flat

Seems to be a crack down on RLJ'ing cyclists from what I can see in Dublin City centre recently.

I noticed a couple of Gardai at several sets of lights in Dublin City last night. It was quite funny actually - as I approached the lights crossing temple bar to the halfpenny bridge, the lights went red and I came to a controlled stop. Just as I stopped, the guards moved towards me, sure I was going to keep going and nab me. There was a quick nod and an "evening guard" then I was on my way again at green

Spook_ie

CramCycle wrote: »

Being there myself, the Gardai were operating a rolling closure. There was directions given to traffic to stop and two motorcycle Marshall at that junction. One directly behind the camera stopping oncoming traffic and one to the left of the camera who was stopping traffic, it happens that people panic when given directions maybe there was an error made, maybe it was safer than the picture gives the impression. When I came round traffic was stopted at the junction. It was not a race and the pace was controlled so it's quite possible that with the drop in speed in the town the Marshall were OK letting some traffic go, you would have to ask them though..

Perhaps, but road closures are subject to various regulations, neither DCC or SDCC appear to have anything about it, so I would query the legitimacy of it being called a rolling closure with the lifting of road regulations that would apply normally.
More a point of legality rather than anythig else as one of the duties of the traffic corp would be to keep traffic moving and if their view was to get cyclists shifted out of the way, then so be it, but to describe it as a rolling road closure is wrong.

EDIT If a traffic corp garda was ordering you to stop then you stop, but in the absence of a corrctly applied road closure from the council etc. then the marshall's would have no legitimacy

Pete_Cavan

Pinch Flat wrote: »

Seems to be a crack down on RLJ'ing cyclists from what I can see in Dublin City centre recently.

I noticed a couple of Gardai at several sets of lights in Dublin City last night. It was quite funny actually - as I approached the lights crossing temple bar to the halfpenny bridge, the lights went red and I came to a controlled stop. Just as I stopped, the guards moved towards me, sure I was going to keep going and nab me. There was a quick nod and an "evening guard" then I was on my way again at green

That is all well and good, any enforcement on this issue is to be welcomed however, the problem is that there is no punishment for cyclists who go through a red light unless they are brought in front of a court. Gardai need to be able to issue on-the-spot fines for those they see cycling through a red light, as well as other offences such as cycling on a footpath. There may be issues here around proving the offence and it coming down to the persons word against the Garda but the existing system is too complicated and needs to be simplified in order to ensure that there is some kind of deterrent.

Similarly, on-the-spot fines should be issued to drivers who obstruct cycle lanes. Clamping just isnt practical in a lot of cases, simply taking a photo of the offending car and issuing a ticket there and then, stick to the window and let the driver move the car and pay the fine later.

Pinch Flat

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

That is all well and good, any enforcement on this issue is to be welcomed however, the problem is that there is no punishment for cyclists who go through a red light unless they are brought in front of a court. Gardai need to be able to issue on-the-spot fines for those they see cycling through a red light, as well as other offences such as cycling on a footpath. There may be issues here around proving the offence and it coming down to the persons word against the Garda but the existing system is too complicated and needs to be simplified in order to ensure that there is some kind of deterrent.

All over the media recently

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/rogue-cyclists-set-to-face-onthespot-fines-30884855.html

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Similarly, on-the-spot fines should be issued to drivers who obstruct cycle lanes. Clamping just isnt practical in a lot of cases, simply taking a photo of the offending car and issuing a ticket there and then, stick to the window and let the driver move the car and pay the fine later.

I agree that on the spot fines should be issued to all road users who break the law - especially ones that are 'normalised', like red light breaking, blocking yellow boxes, clearways, double yellow lines and cycle lanes.

Some cars are towed - ones that are clamped it may not be practical all the time (for example parked between 2 cars) but yeah I would prefer see a car that's inconveniencing thousands illegally towed to a compound far far away. Hitting people hard financially usually gets the message through, but not always.

RainyDay

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

That is all well and good, any enforcement on this issue is to be welcomed however, the problem is that there is no punishment for cyclists who go through a red light unless they are brought in front of a court. Gardai need to be able to issue on-the-spot fines for those they see cycling through a red light, as well as other offences such as cycling on a footpath. There may be issues here around proving the offence and it coming down to the persons word against the Garda but the existing system is too complicated and needs to be simplified in order to ensure that there is some kind of deterrent.

Similarly, on-the-spot fines should be issued to drivers who obstruct cycle lanes. Clamping just isnt practical in a lot of cases, simply taking a photo of the offending car and issuing a ticket there and then, stick to the window and let the driver move the car and pay the fine later.

Most cyclists would be generally happy to see better enforcement of traffic law for cyclists. But let's keep risk and priorities in mind. Cyclists don't kill people. Motorists kill 200 people each year and maim thousands of others. Every hour of Garda time catching cyclists breezing through red lights is an hour not spent reducing the death toll on our roads.

Pete_Cavan

Pinch Flat wrote: »

All over the media recently

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/rogue-cyclists-set-to-face-onthespot-fines-30884855.html

Great news, I wasn’t aware of that.

RainyDay wrote: »

Most cyclists would be generally happy to see better enforcement of traffic law for cyclists. But let's keep risk and priorities in mind. Cyclists don't kill people. Motorists kill 200 people each year and maim thousands of others. Every hour of Garda time catching cyclists breezing through red lights is an hour not spent reducing the death toll on our roads.

I cycle regularly in Dublin city centre and want to see better standards amongst cyclists. Part of this is to punish cyclists who commit an offence (as well as better training, improved cycle infrastructure, etc.). People being killed and maimed by cars is a separate issue and has very little relevance in a cycling thread (unless we are discussing cyclists killed by cars) so in this case I don’t think we should keep “risk and priorities” in mind.

Gardai are unlikely to spend much time specifically catching cyclists breezing through red lights. The Garda Traffic Corps can watch for this as part of their general policing of traffic. Also, you would hope that Gardai generally on the streets in towns and cities will stop cyclists who they see committing an offence. A crack down on cyclists every now and then would also be welcome. Not all road deaths are the fault of motorists, fostering greater compliance with the rules of the road among cyclists can also contribute to reducing the death toll on our roads.

Danjamin1

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The Garda Traffic Corps can watch for this as part of their general policing of traffic. Also, you would hope that Gardai generally on the streets in towns and cities will stop cyclists who they see committing an offence.

I think what drives a lot of poor cycling on Irish roads is a lack of knowledge about your responsibilities when on a bike. Years back I was stopped by an off-duty Garda while cycling idly on the footpath, completely oblivious to the fact that I wasn't allowed to do so. He informed me of this in a polite way and I've not done it since! Following that incident I actually looked in to the rules in relation to cycling to better educate myself. Running red lights is a fairly obvious one that is inexcusable for people not to be aware of, but some people cycling on the pavement might simply not realise they're not allowed to.

Pete_Cavan

Danjamin1 wrote: »

I think what drives a lot of poor cycling on Irish roads is a lack of knowledge about your responsibilities when on a bike. Years back I was stopped by an off-duty Garda while cycling idly on the footpath, completely oblivious to the fact that I wasn't allowed to do so. He informed me of this in a polite way and I've not done it since! Following that incident I actually looked in to the rules in relation to cycling to better educate myself. Running red lights is a fairly obvious one that is inexcusable for people not to be aware of, but some people cycling on the pavement might simply not realise they're not allowed to.

Absolutely, simply being made aware of the rules, or being told them by a Garda, would be enough for most cyclists to change their ways. Others will need to be hit in the pocket before they get the message which is why on-the-spot fines are important. A bit of regulation would make a huge difference to standards of cycling which will benefit everyone.

CramCycle

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Great news, I wasn’t aware of that.

Part of this is to punish cyclists who commit an offence

Completely agree, I think all road users should be punished for offences.

as well as better training,

Should be part of the national school curriculum, no other cost effective and comprehensive way to do this.

improved cycle infrastructure,

Considering what a typical council believes good cycle infrastructure to be, I would rather this did not occur. Make footpaths wider, make bus lanes wider, and on roads where space is limited, remove parking in highly congested areas to make wider footpaths/bus lanes. Improve public transport links and frequency.

People being killed and maimed by cars is a separate issue and has very little relevance in a cycling thread (unless we are discussing cyclists killed by cars) so in this case I don’t think we should keep “risk and priorities” in mind.

It has relevance in that many of those who berate cyclists as a homogenous group, as they see it from their cars need to understand that in the grand scheme of things, priorities of the AGS with diminished feet on the ground and diminished resources should not be put where they will be not that useful.

Gardai are unlikely to spend much time specifically catching cyclists breezing through red lights. The Garda Traffic Corps can watch for this as part of their general policing of traffic. Also, you would hope that Gardai generally on the streets in towns and cities will stop cyclists who they see committing an offence.

They don't do it often now as it is a tremendous waste of their resources, having to take a day to go to court, ridiculous. Can't wait for the FPNs, should start to see a trickle down effect hopefully.

A crack down on cyclists every now and then would also be welcome.

Personally I find those "crackdowns" that they have every now and again a waste of time, should be renamed a stupidity tax, they are well advertised and they don't exactly hide. If they have a crackdown, it should not be advertised and all road users together should get it.

Not all road deaths are the fault of motorists, fostering greater compliance with the rules of the road among cyclists can also contribute to reducing the death toll on our roads.

While there seemed to be a statistical blip in the number of deaths of cyclists last year, it still seems to be a waste of time. Education would have stopped two of the ones I heard of, stupidity made one inevitable, and the rest seemed to be the fault of either bad luck or other road users, of the three that pop to mind, one was were a car did not yield and hit the cyclists coming through a junction (cyclist had right of way), one was a hit and run and the other was a hit and run where the driver with something along the lines of 69 previous convictions was ordered abroad or "back home" by the judge.

CramCycle

Danjamin1 wrote: »

I think what drives a lot of poor cycling on Irish roads is a lack of knowledge about your responsibilities when on a bike. Years back I was stopped by an off-duty Garda while cycling idly on the footpath, completely oblivious to the fact that I wasn't allowed to do so. He informed me of this in a polite way and I've not done it since! Following that incident I actually looked in to the rules in relation to cycling to better educate myself. Running red lights is a fairly obvious one that is inexcusable for people not to be aware of, but some people cycling on the pavement might simply not realise they're not allowed to.

I have had people get out of their cars to attempt to assault me because when I stopped at a Red they thought I was doing it to annoy them, I remember another poster having people tell him when he stopped at a Red on O'Connell bridge that pedestrians were telling him "you know that cyclists don't have to stop". Alot of people don't realise, again, this is why road/cycling instruction should come through at ntional school level, with maybe a mandatory follow up course in 4th year of Secondary school, beneficial to all road users, not just cyclists.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Absolutely, simply being made aware of the rules, or being told them by a Garda, would be enough for most cyclists to change their ways. Others will need to be hit in the pocket before they get the message which is why on-the-spot fines are important. A bit of regulation would make a huge difference to standards of cycling which will benefit everyone.

I think fines are a quick way to get through to Joe Public, if someone has been ignoring or unaware of the rules for 10 years, only a penalty will sort it out as otherwise they will view it as busy body policing, getting a quiet word. No different to my view that is a Garda gives a verbal warning to a speeder, he might not speed in that area again but I don't think he slows down everywhere. Hit the law breaker in the pocket every time and they will hopefully get the message far quicker.

RainyDay

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I cycle regularly in Dublin city centre and want to see better standards amongst cyclists. Part of this is to punish cyclists who commit an offence (as well as better training, improved cycle infrastructure, etc.). People being killed and maimed by cars is a separate issue and has very little relevance in a cycling thread (unless we are discussing cyclists killed by cars) so in this case I don’t think we should keep “risk and priorities” in mind.

The relevance of people being killed and maimed by cars is down to the fact that we have one Garda force. Therefore, every minute spent by Gardai dealing with cyclists is a minute spent not reducing the death toll on our roads.

I want to see better standards of cycling too, in an ideal world. But I don't want to devote resources that would otherwise be reducing the death toll on our roads to cycling. I'd also like to see better standards of pedestrians - ones who don't walk out on the road into traffic without looking - but I wouldn't suggest that this is a good use of Garda resources at the moment.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Gardai are unlikely to spend much time specifically catching cyclists breezing through red lights. The Garda Traffic Corps can watch for this as part of their general policing of traffic. Also, you would hope that Gardai generally on the streets in towns and cities will stop cyclists who they see committing an offence. A crack down on cyclists every now and then would also be welcome. Not all road deaths are the fault of motorists, fostering greater compliance with the rules of the road among cyclists can also contribute to reducing the death toll on our roads.

I'm not so sure of the practicalities of Gardai watching for this as part of 'general policing'. If every Garda on every street tried to stop every traffic offence that he sees, the whole system would collapse under the weight of huge volume of processing within hours. Stand at any traffic lights in Dublin and you'll see 2 or 3 drivers breaking the red light at each change of lights, you'll see a few drivers on their phones and 1 or 2 without seat belts, you'll see cyclists mooching through the red lights and 1 or 2 unlit cyclists at night.

Everything that I read about cyclist deaths on the roads suggests that stopping cyclists breaking red lights will make SFA difference. Everything that I read about road deaths suggests that stopping cyclists breaking red lights will make SFA difference.

The reality of the situation is that many road users break many traffic laws many times. So we have to prioritise and focus.

Now, do we want to focus on the minor irritation of cyclists breaking red lights, or do we want to reduce the death toll.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Absolutely, simply being made aware of the rules, or being told them by a Garda, would be enough for most cyclists to change their ways. Others will need to be hit in the pocket before they get the message which is why on-the-spot fines are important. A bit of regulation would make a huge difference to standards of cycling which will benefit everyone.

Danjamin1 wrote: »

I think what drives a lot of poor cycling on Irish roads is a lack of knowledge about your responsibilities when on a bike. Years back I was stopped by an off-duty Garda while cycling idly on the footpath, completely oblivious to the fact that I wasn't allowed to do so. He informed me of this in a polite way and I've not done it since! Following that incident I actually looked in to the rules in relation to cycling to better educate myself. Running red lights is a fairly obvious one that is inexcusable for people not to be aware of, but some people cycling on the pavement might simply not realise they're not allowed to.

I'm not so sure about the 'lack of knowledge' thing at all. Surely the vast majority of people know that it is against the law. They just do the Irish thing of kidding themselves that the law is for other people.

And I'm not so sure that we have Garda resources that we can devote to this issue. But we do have other resources.

If a pavement cyclist was met with a firm assertive (not aggressive) tirade of 'get off the path and onto the road' from every 2nd or 3rd pedestrian he meets, he might soon reconsider his approach.

Danjamin1

CramCycle wrote: »

I have had people get out of their cars to attempt to assault me because when I stopped at a Red they thought I was doing it to annoy them, I remember another poster having people tell him when he stopped at a Red on O'Connell bridge that pedestrians were telling him "you know that cyclists don't have to stop". Alot of people don't realise, again, this is why road/cycling instruction should come through at ntional school level, with maybe a mandatory follow up course in 4th year of Secondary school, beneficial to all road users, not just cyclists.

I totally agree, it's not just cyclists that need educating but everyone, similarly I met a bus driver last year who insisted that under the law I had to use the cycle lane if provided, this was apparently the instruction they had been given by the Gardai at a refresher training course. His interpretation of this meant that it was perfectly fine to overtake me incredibly closely while honking his horn on approach and throughout the overtake.

RainyDay wrote: »

I'm not so sure about the 'lack of knowledge' thing at all. Surely the vast majority of people know that it is against the law. They just do the Irish thing of kidding themselves that the law is for other people.

Of course there's going to be plenty of that as well, some people are just ass hats.

CramCycle

Danjamin1 wrote: »

I totally agree, it's not just cyclists that need educating but everyone, similarly I met a bus driver last year who insisted that under the law I had to use the cycle lane if provided, this was apparently the instruction they had been given by the Gardai at a refresher training course. His interpretation of this meant that it was perfectly fine to overtake me incredibly closely while honking his horn on approach and throughout the overtake.

I always astonished by this mentality. Let's say for example, he was right (I have had this conversation with a bus driver, quite politely I might add). So you see someone breaking the law, they theoretically are delaying you through this action (they are not really, in rush hour the majority of bikes are faster than a bus due to not having to stop at bus stops and getting caught up to other buses, out of rush hour they can easily overtake as the lane beside them is relatively clear enough to do so). Either way, because someone is breaking the law, they have decided to "teach" that person a lesson. Not by, having a polite word, not by a harmless flash of the lights, or a less harmless beep of the horn (could scare someone off their bike) but by cutting in so close that they could very easily either knock the cyclist off or actually hit them, neither of which will end terribly well, possibly fatally in the right situation. Is this vigilante reaction justified, taking the law into your own hands and administering it. It is not much different, if lets say a car decided to skip traffic and use the bus lane (actually illegal), and instead of hoping they get caught by the Gardai, the bus driver pushes against their bumper the next time they stop, and then pushes them into a junction. That's the equivalent.

One misjudgement on space or road surface and it changes from a lesson taught to vehicular manslaughter, although the judge will probably hand down some measly comment about hi vis not being worn and this is a mitigating factor or some such rubbish.

Of course there's going to be plenty of that as well, some people are just ass hats.

Their are loads of assh@s who know its illegal but there are many who don't, who honestly believe that the laws for motorised traffic are actually the same laws for all traffic. Education will instill it in the young (no excuses) and fines/enforcement will get around alot quicker for the older.

Danjamin1

CramCycle wrote: »

Their are loads of assh@s who know its illegal but there are many who don't, who honestly believe that the laws for motorised traffic are actually the same laws for all traffic. Education will instill it in the young (no excuses) and fines/enforcement will get around alot quicker for the older.

Exactly my point, until I was told I didn't realise. All it took was for the Garda to tell me. I got off the bike once he did and walked to the next point of road I could cycle on and haven't used a footpath as a route since.

I recently lived in Switzerland and near to where I worked there was regularly groups of young cyclists being instructed on how to use the road safely, including the roundabout outside our office. If we had something like that in school at some point it'd make a huge difference in cyclist behaviour (hopefully!).

Pinch Flat

I noticed a lot of private bus operators travelling down the quays out of Dublin are fans of flashing lights, blaring horns and close passing when it comes to cyclists. I don't know if it's stupidity or lack of manners or a bit of both perhaps

I had a guy follow me in a bus within a couple of feet at guinness the other evening, all the time flashing his lights. In the end he passed so close I could have touched the bus. It's pointless reporting these incidents - I don't have faith in what the guards will do.

Might be time to invest in an on bike camera.....

Pete_Cavan

RainyDay wrote: »

The relevance of people being killed and maimed by cars is down to the fact that we have one Garda force. Therefore, every minute spent by Gardai dealing with cyclists is a minute spent not reducing the death toll on our roads.

I want to see better standards of cycling too, in an ideal world. But I don't want to devote resources that would otherwise be reducing the death toll on our roads to cycling. I'd also like to see better standards of pedestrians - ones who don't walk out on the road into traffic without looking - but I wouldn't suggest that this is a good use of Garda resources at the moment.

...

The reality of the situation is that many road users break many traffic laws many times. So we have to prioritise and focus.

Now, do we want to focus on the minor irritation of cyclists breaking red lights, or do we want to reduce the death toll.

My point was that improving standards of cyclists makes the roads and streets a more pleasant place for everyone. Removing the need to go to court in order to punish a cyclist and streamlining that process is going to improving standards of cyclists, which is to be welcomed. The allocation of Gardai is largely irrelevant, cyclists can be monitored by Traffic Corps Gardai in the course of their regular duties and Gardai on the street can also assist. There are no additional resources or a dedicated branch of the Gardai specifically targeting cyclists, merely that Gardai on duty deal with offending cyclists appropriately. Gardai don’t leave the station to enforce one area of the law and turn a blind eye to all other breaches. If a Garda on the street sees a cyclist cycling towards him on the footpath, or a Garda at a junction sees cyclist cycling through a red light, they should do nothing about it because they are out to get drivers or bank robbers only today?

The opportunity cost of a Garda dealing with a cyclist breaking a red light is not a death on the road.

RainyDay wrote: »

I'm not so sure about the 'lack of knowledge' thing at all. Surely the vast majority of people know that it is against the law. They just do the Irish thing of kidding themselves that the law is for other people.

And I'm not so sure that we have Garda resources that we can devote to this issue. But we do have other resources.

If a pavement cyclist was met with a firm assertive (not aggressive) tirade of 'get off the path and onto the road' from every 2nd or 3rd pedestrian he meets, he might soon reconsider his approach.

Yes, some people are fully aware of the laws but choose to break them, that is why enforcement and suitable punishment is necessary. This is better done by Gardai, not vigilanty pedestrians. And again, it does not require extra resources.

RainyDay

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

My point was that improving standards of cyclists makes the roads and streets a more pleasant place for everyone.

Fully agree. So does planting flowers, picking up cigarette butts and giving out free hugs. But that doesn’t make it a priority area for action for the limited Garda resources that we have.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Removing the need to go to court in order to punish a cyclist and streamlining that process is going to improving standards of cyclists, which is to be welcomed.

Fully agree.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The allocation of Gardai is largely irrelevant, cyclists can be monitored by Traffic Corps Gardai in the course of their regular duties and Gardai on the street can also assist. There are no additional resources or a dedicated branch of the Gardai specifically targeting cyclists, merely that Gardai on duty deal with offending cyclists appropriately.

The allocation of Gardai is very relevant. Yes, Gardai will deal with multiple issues during the course of any duty shift. This doesn’t change the fact that every minute spent dealing with cyclists breaking red lights is one minute less to deal with those who kill 200 people each year.
There will be no significant change in cyclist behaviour unless there is significant emphasis and resources put behind this initiative by the Gardai. That will take resources away from something else.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The opportunity cost of a Garda dealing with a cyclist breaking a red light is not a death on the road.

Fully agree. But the opportunity cost of a Garda dealing with x cyclists breaking a red lights is = y deaths on the road. Now I don’t know what X and Y are in real life. But there is a relationship. Every minute spent dealing with cyclists is a minute less spent dealing with motorists.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Yes, some people are fully aware of the laws but choose to break them, that is why enforcement and suitable punishment is necessary. This is better done by Gardai, not vigilanty pedestrians. And again, it does not require extra resources.

What’s the chances that the Garda will actually be on the spot, and see it happening. Speaking to someone assertively is not ‘vigilanty’. It does not involve enforcement, or punishment – just delivering a clear message about the social unacceptability of their actions.

I wouldn't quote go as far as these guys, but I do like their style;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0etjMuBB4Dc

Danjamin1

RainyDay wrote: »

What’s the chances that the Garda will actually be on the spot, and see it happening. Speaking to someone assertively is not ‘vigilanty’. It does not involve enforcement, or punishment – just delivering a clear message about the social unacceptability of their actions.

Ah that's easier in theory than it is in practice, it requires a collective mindset whereas in reality some people will be very perturbed by it and other won't give a sh*t. You're likely to get a response along the lines of "F**k off".

Aard

Pinch Flat wrote: »

I noticed a lot of private bus operators travelling down the quays out of Dublin are fans of flashing lights, blaring horns and close passing when it comes to cyclists.

I have noticed this too. Dublin Bus drivers are generally very cognisant that somebody on a bike needs to cycle a bit out from the kerb in most instances due to drains, potholes etc. Pretty much every other bus company seem to make it their business to "teach a lesson" -- forcing their way in, overtaking without giving enough room, driving/parking in the (continuously white-lined) cycle lane. The worst offender by far in the city centre is, imo, Dublin Coach and their related "luxury" tourist bus. I also notice a lack of awareness from Bus Eireann and JJ Kavanagh. The Dublin Bus tourist buses aren't great either -- maybe the drivers are too preoccupied narrating the city's sights?

RainyDay

Aard wrote: »

I have noticed this too. Dublin Bus drivers are generally very cognisant that somebody on a bike needs to cycle a bit out from the kerb in most instances due to drains, potholes etc. Pretty much every other bus company seem to make it their business to "teach a lesson" -- forcing their way in, overtaking without giving enough room, driving/parking in the (continuously white-lined) cycle lane. The worst offender by far in the city centre is, imo, Dublin Coach and their related "luxury" tourist bus. I also notice a lack of awareness from Bus Eireann and JJ Kavanagh. The Dublin Bus tourist buses aren't great either -- maybe the drivers are too preoccupied narrating the city's sights?

I know some of those firms have the drivers under fierce pressure to keep schedules and meet deadlines, which probably isn't conducive to safe driving.

Danjamin1 wrote: »

Ah that's easier in theory than it is in practice, it requires a collective mindset whereas in reality some people will be very perturbed by it and other won't give a sh*t. You're likely to get a response along the lines of "F**k off".

Yep, you'll got a lot of those responses. But you'll also get some 'fair enough' responses, and you'll get other pedestrians saying 'fair play'. And maybe tomorrow, the pavement cyclist will have to F-off to two people. And the day after, maybe 3 people. And the day will come where it's just less hassle to stay on the roads.

cdebru

Pinch Flat wrote: »

I noticed a lot of private bus operators travelling down the quays out of Dublin are fans of flashing lights, blaring horns and close passing when it comes to cyclists. I don't know if it's stupidity or lack of manners or a bit of both perhaps

I had a guy follow me in a bus within a couple of feet at guinness the other evening, all the time flashing his lights. In the end he passed so close I could have touched the bus. It's pointless reporting these incidents - I don't have faith in what the guards will do.

Might be time to invest in an on bike camera.....

I think it is 2 things one is lack of training, and the second is commercial pressure, for private operators it is all about profit, time is money and that pressure is transferred to their drivers and they are under pressure to get to where they are going.

cdebru

Danjamin1 wrote: »

I think what drives a lot of poor cycling on Irish roads is a lack of knowledge about your responsibilities when on a bike. Years back I was stopped by an off-duty Garda while cycling idly on the footpath, completely oblivious to the fact that I wasn't allowed to do so. He informed me of this in a polite way and I've not done it since! Following that incident I actually looked in to the rules in relation to cycling to better educate myself. Running red lights is a fairly obvious one that is inexcusable for people not to be aware of, but some people cycling on the pavement might simply not realise they're not allowed to.

I don't think so, it is mixed messages if it is not OK to cycle on the footpath then why keep putting cycle lanes on footpaths ? If it is not OK to cycle through a red light why keep designing traffic junctions that ignore cyclists ? The new contra flow at Camden street is a perfect example, cyclists can use it but don't set of the lights only a bus will trigger the lights, so what do you do ? Sit there waiting for a bus or jump the light. Thousands of cyclists face this every day leaving an estate with a light only triggered by a motor vehicle etc.

I think you have to differentiate between the cyclists who just boot through a pedestrian crossing or junction and dont give a **** and those who stop give way and take off if the road is clear, the same with those who mount the footpath because the road way is completely blocked and they are getting around the blockage and those who just bfly down a footpath and think pedestrians should get out of their way.

Taking off a little early at a red light if the way is clear is often a lot safer than fighting for road space with cars, buses and trucks and the new cycle lights in the city center are I believe supposed in the future to give cyclists a green ahead if other traffic for that exact reason.

Other times it is a lack of common sense provision of infrastructure take Clare street/ Leinster street Nassau street, why isn't there a contra flow by cycle lane to the Dublin bikes station, do we seriously expect cyclist to go all around pearse street and back down or off uptowards Stephens Green and down Dawson street maybe the car parking spaces along there are more important.

Spook_ie

cdebru wrote: »

I don't think so, it is mixed messages if it is not OK to cycle on the footpath then why keep putting cycle lanes on footpaths ? If it is not OK to cycle through a red light why keep designing traffic junctions that ignore cyclists ? The new contra flow at Camden street is a perfect example, cyclists can use it but don't set of the lights only a bus will trigger the lights, so what do you do ? Sit there waiting for a bus or jump the light. Thousands of cyclists face this every day leaving an estate with a light only triggered by a motor vehicle etc.

You learn patience
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=94037148&postcount=9

from DreamerB

Sorry for the delay in getting back to this. Work is seven shades of frantic. After Doctor Bob's helpful posts (and his cycling the route especially to check my allegations), I spent a few commutes carefully observing how the lights are working.

He's perfectly right about the pedestrian lights at the Bleeding Horse.<snipped>.

cdebru wrote: »

I think you have to differentiate between the cyclists who just boot through a pedestrian crossing or junction and dont give a **** and those who stop give way and take off if the road is clear, the same with those who mount the footpath because the road way is completely blocked and they are getting around the blockage and those who just bfly down a footpath and think pedestrians should get out of their way.

Err, both are breaking the same laws, why differentiate?

Taking off a little early at a red light if the way is clear is often a lot safer than fighting for road space with cars, buses and trucks and the new cycle lights in the city center are I believe supposed in the future to give cyclists a green ahead if other traffic for that exact reason.

Correct, and until such time as a set of lights is updated then follow the law

Other times it is a lack of common sense provision of infrastructure take Clare street/ Leinster street Nassau street, why isn't there a contra flow by cycle lane to the Dublin bikes station, do we seriously expect cyclist to go all around pearse street and back down or off uptowards Stephens Green and down Dawson street maybe the car parking spaces along there are more important.

Again, correct but until such time as you are allowed, either walk the bike or follow the designated traffic route, probably even more so whilst road users are distracted trying to work out where they are meant to be while Luas works are in progress

cdebru

Spook_ie wrote: »

You learn patience
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=94037148&postcount=9




Err, both are breaking the same law, why differentiate?



Correct, and until such time as a set of lights is updated then follow the law


Again, correct but until such time as you are allowed, either walk the bike or follow the designated traffic route, probably even more so whilst road users are distracted trying to work out where they are meant to be while Luas works are in progress

I actually used it the day after it opened there was a guy there from Dublin cycling handing out a leaflet and bike lights and the lights didn't change and he informed me that they were set up to change only for buses, if they have changed that's welcome but that is how they were set up when it opened. Also it doesn't address the lights all over the city that are set up to only be triggered by a motor vehicle? What should you do there wait for a car to come and change the lights ?


One is breaking the law without any thought for their own or anyone elses safety the other is protecting themselves from mixing with vehicles that can kill them at one of the most dangerous times taking of from a stop, they are completely different. The same way legally you shouldn't cross a stop line at traffic lights but when cycling it is often safer to do so to try and ensure traffic can see you especially at junctions that dont have the stacking area for cyclists.

I don't use Dublin bikes but I see loads of users taking the direct route either on the footpath or going against the flow of traffic everyday and common sense would say it is stupid to place a bike station on a one way street and not provide access.

Also during the strong wind there a few weeks back I saw a few people take to the footpaths and I wouldn't be blame them as long as they are not putting pedestrians at risk.

Aard

cdebru wrote: »

I don't use Dublin bikes but I see loads of users taking the direct route either on the footpath or going against the flow of traffic everyday and common sense would say it is stupid to place a bike station on a one way street and not provide access.

You're absolutely right. A few that come to mind are:

- Cathal Brugha Street: it'd be nice to be able to cycle straight onto O'Connell Street, especially to access Parnell St westbound.

- Parnell Street: difficult to access the station to/from the westbound carriageway.

- Great Strand Street: no access to Liffey St; huge detour via Capel Street necessary to get onto the north quays.

- Exchequer Street: no access onto George's Street.

- Greek Street: no access onto north quays.

- Smithfield: generally confusing oneway system and cobbled streets (impossible to cycle on); I'm sure nobody uses the streets here according to the one-way system.


In most of these cases, there is plenty of space to put in a 1.5m contraflow lane. It's often the case that there are double yellow lines along these routes so there wouldn't even be a loss of car parking (not that I would particularly lament it if there were).

HydeRoad

This is what happens when people who don't cycle in Dublin, design cycle lanes; people who don't drive buses, design bus lanes; people with no real interest in any of this, appoint the people to plan it all.

It is not for want of people to plan these things properly. Rather, the problem lies in rotten government, local and national. People who can do their jobs properly are not wanted, because they show up all the others who are there solely because of their connections, and their party politics.

There's no answer to this. Excuse me for being a cynic. You're banging your head off a wall explaining why things should be better designed than they are. It's plainly obvious they should. But it's not wanted.

Sheldons Brain

I wonder do the cyclists yield to the pedestrians?

monument

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

I wonder do the cyclists yield to the pedestrians?

Off-topic post moved from this thread: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057461776

pclive

cdebru wrote: »

I actually used it the day after it opened there was a guy there from Dublin cycling handing out a leaflet and bike lights and the lights didn't change and he informed me that they were set up to change only for buses, if they have changed that's welcome but that is how they were set up when it opened. Also it doesn't address the lights all over the city that are set up to only be triggered by a motor vehicle? What should you do there wait for a car to come and change the lights ?

If you position your bicycle (metal framed bikes only) over the induction loop detector before the stop line you will call the phase. Works for me every time

Bicycle induction loops are also on the contra flow at the Bleeding Horse similar to the ones used on the Grand Canal cycle track

redmicky

HydeRoad wrote: »

This is what happens when people who don't cycle in Dublin, design cycle lanes; people who don't drive buses, design bus lanes; people with no real interest in any of this, appoint the people to plan it all.

Its not what you know, its who you know.
NTA is just a handy job for people loyal to the party, they are making a mess of things.
How hard can it be to sort it out?
1, make fare simple.
2, straighten out routes.
3, remove at least 20% of stops.
4, get the police to arrest a few of the dirt bags on public transport.
This would take many people out of their cars onto public transport, freeing up more road space making it safer for cyclists, even more would leave the car to cycle and it would only increase the safety on the roads, leading to more cyclist, less traffic, the bus could travel faster. Better for everyone.
Thats all it would take to vastly improve the transport in dublin.

ceannair06

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

I wonder do the cyclists yield to the pedestrians?

Never. Ever, ever, ever. I walk up from Heuston daily and dream Dame Street/Great George's Street. Cyclists couldn't give a **** about pedestrians.

ceannair06

HydeRoad wrote: »

This is what happens when people who don't cycle in Dublin, design cycle lanes; people who don't drive buses, design bus lanes; people with no real interest in any of this, appoint the people to plan it all.

It is not for want of people to plan these things properly. Rather, the problem lies in rotten government, local and national. People who can do their jobs properly are not wanted, because they show up all the others who are there solely because of their connections, and their party politics.

There's no answer to this. Excuse me for being a cynic. You're banging your head off a wall explaining why things should be better designed than they are. It's plainly obvious they should. But it's not wanted.

How does the design of a road excuse running a red light en masse oblivious to pedestrians trying to cross ?

seamus

ceannair06 wrote: »

How does the design of a road excuse running a red light en masse oblivious to pedestrians trying to cross ?

It doesn't. And in no part of that post was he excusing anything.

RainyDay

ceannair06 wrote: »

Never. Ever, ever, ever. I walk up from Heuston daily and dream Dame Street/Great George's Street. Cyclists couldn't give a **** about pedestrians.

All of them? They're all the same, are they? Or is it just possible that you only notice the ones who are causing problems? BTW, do you notice the drivers breaking the red lights too? And speeding? And on their phones?

redmicky wrote: »

How hard can it be to sort it out?

You know your job? It's as hard as that.

Except with the added bonus of changing political priorities and changing resources.

n97 mini

I've been driving in south Dublin after dark a lot lately and I'm astonished at the number of cyclists with no lights. So I decided to do a count the other night. 12 out of 20 had none at all and only around 4 had full front and rear lights.

Last night I nearly hit one with no lights cycling across a junction in Donnybrook (he broke a red light too, another common phenomenon). So I decided to contact the ministers for transport and justice as enforcement seems to be absent.

Anyone else witnessing what seems to me to be a chronic problem?

Wheety

I've seen it a lot too and they tend to be wearing dark clothes too. Very hard to see them. Do they have a death wish?

I say this as a cyclist too in case people think I'm cyclist bashing. it's just common sense to have lights on your bike at night time and high-vis too.

Fighting Tao

Ah the famous bike ninjas that apparently can't be seen but really are seen. Some people have a death wish. To quote Forrest Gump...Stupid is as stupid does. As a driver, cyclist and pedestrian I don't understand it but then the human brain works (or sometimes doesn't work) in mysterious ways.

The cycling forum has it's own thread on it too: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=101668803

amcalester

I see the same fella each evening dressed in all black with no lights on his bike, surely only a matter of time until he comes a cropper.

hmmm

If the guards can put a checkpoint on the M50, it shouldn't be too hard to stand in the cycle lane on the quays and pull over every cyclist who does not have lights.

lucernarian

It's incredible how many people do that despite the law being clear on the requirement for over 50 years now.

More people are kitted with high vis clothing than lights in my experience, if on their own bike.

I suspect thats in part due to free high vis jackets being easy enough to come by from RSA etc., and the mistaken emphasis in the public domain on high vis clothing even though it's not a legal requirement.

One blessing of the Dublin bikes scheme is that it's much easier to see them coming with their lights.

Hrududu

I genuinely think some people think "If I can see you then you can see me." Lots of ninjas out these evenings.

First Up

Deedsie wrote:

Not in a whataboutery way but cars with missing headlights/brake lights are also deadly.

Driving with broken lights is a human right - like free water. Of no interest to the RSA as it doesn't involve speed, texting or drink and we all know they are the only things that cause accidents.