Cyclists mega-thread (WARNING: Before posting you must read post #1)

07Lapierre

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Yea I know, would rather see more Gardai on bicycles handing out penalty points though...

I would LOVE that Job!...Great interval training chasing down cyclists who Jump Red Lights!

Danjamin1

Got squeezed out by an Aircoach at UCD flyover northbound this morning, I was stopped at the lights and he pulled up to them behind me. Lights went green, he got alongside me approaching the bus stop and proceeded to push me towards the kerb. He wasn't stopping at the stop, just going straight on, no other cars impeding him. Just a w@nker in a bus.

Jawgap

07Lapierre wrote: »

Gardai don't issue red cards..referees display red cards. I think it would be a good "non-confrontational" way of expressing your frustration at another road users actions. Totally agree though...the guys a nutter and does nothing but make cyclist/driver relations worse.

I'll endorse the cards idea, but only if these are the cards to be used

BTW - Aircoach are generally always w@nkers - they're an absolute menace through Whitehall / Drumcondra.

Danjamin1

Jawgap wrote: »

BTW - Aircoach are generally always w@nkers - they're an absolute menace through Whitehall / Drumcondra.

I can think of two reasons he may have done it:

1) he didn't want me ahead of him in the bus lane along the dual carriageway, but if this was the case why didn't he just overtake me? It would have been quicker than what he did!

2) he's just a miserable old w@nker

Seaswimmer

Danjamin1 wrote: »

I can think of two reasons he may have done it:

1) he didn't want me ahead of him in the bus lane along the dual carriageway, but if this was the case why didn't he just overtake me? It would have been quicker than what he did!

2) he's just a miserable old w@nker

I had 2 incidents with Aircoach over the years. One on Beach road Sandymount and one on Sean Moore Road. Each time I emailed their customer service department with the time of the incident, location and why I felt it was dangerous. Both times I got a call back from the operations manager apologising and saying they would talk to the driver. Maybe its just me but I feel they have improved slightly. The most trouble I have now around Whitehall/Drumcondra is with a certain coach operator from the north east starting with M.

Tenzor07

Seaswimmer wrote: »

I had 2 incidents with Aircoach over the years. One on Beach road Sandymount and one on Sean Moore Road. Each time I emailed their customer service department with the time of the incident, location and why I felt it was dangerous. Both times I got a call back from the operations manager apologising and saying they would talk to the driver. Maybe its just me but I feel they have improved slightly. The most trouble I have now around Whitehall/Drumcondra is with a certain coach operator from the north east starting with M.

I wonder if Aircoach and Dublin bus etc etc have the same procedures as the London bus company's..whereby drivers with 3 or more complaints in a year go back for re-training before they are allowed back out on the roads...

CramCycle

Tenzor07 wrote: »

I wonder if Aircoach and Dublin bus etc etc have the same procedures as the London bus company's..whereby drivers with 3 or more complaints in a year go back for re-training before they are allowed back out on the roads...

I fell out of my seat laughing with the thought they done anything other than had a laugh over a cup of coffee with the union rep about it unless the Gardai are involved, in which case, they do the same as above, wait two weeks and if there is a follow up claim that the on board footage was not recoverable, then have another, more sinister laugh about it.

This is sarcasm but they do give you the impression that this is the modus operandi

Jawgap

Seaswimmer wrote: »

I had 2 incidents with Aircoach over the years. One on Beach road Sandymount and one on Sean Moore Road. Each time I emailed their customer service department with the time of the incident, location and why I felt it was dangerous. Both times I got a call back from the operations manager apologising and saying they would talk to the driver. Maybe its just me but I feel they have improved slightly. The most trouble I have now around Whitehall/Drumcondra is with a certain coach operator from the north east starting with M.

Interestingly........I complained to Aircoach and got nowhere. Had an incident with the 'M' people and the man himself called me back to apologise - perhaps because I'm a regular user of the service and I added that in my email. I have noticed, however, that their (M's) current crop of drivers are not nearly as 'nice' as the lads they had a few years ago. Not sure why.

BE are another absolute shower - I'd put them with Aircoach and a certain company beginning with K.......

Tenzor07

CramCycle wrote: »

I fell out of my seat laughing with the thought they done anything other than had a laugh over a cup of coffee with the union rep about it unless the Gardai are involved, in which case, they do the same as above, wait two weeks and if there is a follow up claim that the on board footage was not recoverable, then have another, more sinister laugh about it.

We're a long way behind London so, they have a Transport authority responsible for roads, tube trains, bus's and taxi's.. and they log all complaints, even meet up with some of the "more regular" complainants..And Bus drivers are brought in for customer service training.

I guess this means then that Bus and Taxi drivers can drive with impunity around the streets of Dublin?

Seaswimmer

Tenzor07 wrote: »

I guess this means then that Bus and Taxi drivers can drive with impunity around the streets of Dublin?

and everyone else:rolleyes:

Tenzor07

Jawgap wrote: »

I have noticed, however, that their (M's) current crop of drivers are not nearly as 'nice' as the lads they had a few years ago. Not sure why.

I would say because of minimum wages and long hours, pressure from transport managers to be at a certain place at a certain time...

Though this doesn't excuse potentially dangerous driving!

Maybe hiring standards have gone down also due to the low-wages and conditions which means the (private) bus companies are failing to attract careful and professional drivers...As opposed to some guy who shows up with 10 years truck driving experience in Azerbaijan! :mad:

Macy0161

I've had a few "too close for comfort" moments with Aircoaches on the Rock Road. I have to say Dublin Bus would be a fair way down the list of vehicles that don't give enough space - in my experience they are pretty respectful. Aircoach, other Private Buses, Cars in the bus lane (that shouldn't be there), Taxis, Motorbikes and then Dublin Bus would be my ranking.

As it's a general whinge thread - what's the story with motorbikes/ scooters filtering up the left? Coming across it more in recent months, including in on road cycle lanes with a solid line.

07Lapierre

Macy0161 wrote: »

I've had a few "too close for comfort" moments with Aircoaches on the Rock Road. I have to say Dublin Bus would be a fair way down the list of vehicles that don't give enough space - in my experience they are pretty respectful. Aircoach, other Private Buses, Cars in the bus lane (that shouldn't be there), Taxis, Motorbikes and then Dublin Bus would be my ranking.

As it's a general whinge thread - what's the story with motorbikes/ scooters filtering up the left? Coming across it more in recent months, including in on road cycle lanes with a solid line.

The only issue I have with Motorbikes filtering thru traffic is they can't get thru the narrow gaps that I can...

Macy0161

07Lapierre wrote: »

The only issue I have with Motorbikes filtering thru traffic is they can't get thru the narrow gaps that I can...

Yeah, well that's my issue - they're in the cycle lane, and get stuck. Although on the merrion road I've noticed more and more scooters just sticking in the cycle lane the whole way from Bewleys down to Vincents, regardless of whether they're actually filtering.

CramCycle

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Maybe hiring standards have gone down also due to the low-wages and conditions which means the (private) bus companies are failing to attract careful and professional drivers...As opposed to some guy who shows up with 10 years truck driving experience in Azerbaijan! :mad:

Its not so much that hiring standards have gone down as minimum driving standards for Irish professional drivers were never that high.

My Dad was a professional driver in London for years, when we moved back to Ireland he was shocked at the behaviour of lorry drivers in Ireland but he slowly realised that it is an issue across the board. In London the rule was if you are bigger, you stop and give way were it was not clear. In Ireland it seems to be, I am bigger therefore you have to give way. PSV drivers are working and therefore have more right of way than those who are either out for leisure or only on their way to work. The hoop jumping and exhaustive testing for taxi drivers in London is equivalent to a 3rd level degree with an apprenticeship. Here it is a test where the minimum score and a fee gets you the license.

If you didn't indicate early when I lived there, it was likely that you'd have the cops on your tail or you would be lambasted and potentially beaten to death for your recklessness (slight exaggeration). Amber Gambler? The guy behind you would lay on the horn to give out (but he would have stopped) and if traffic was heavy, someone would have you reported before you made the next lights. Admittedly it sounds like standards have started to drop their too but it could not drop down to our levels.

Grandeeod

Discuss

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwqRqIvo4GU

Aard

^ You first?

Grandeeod

Aard wrote: »

^ You first?

Chicken.:D

Anyway. Bus does indeed intrude on the cyclelane and cyclist gets road rage. Bus driver doesn't apologise and digs himself into a big hole.

Not my video and don't know the uploader. Came across it on Facebook earlier.

punisher5112

Hi all they were talking on 98fm and maybe others all day it was the biggest news story they have ever had the way they were going on about it.

Liam Phelan is the cyclist he seems to absolutely adore been caught up in trouble and from all his other youtube videos goes looking for trouble.

He posts videos up all the time and his name is there on youtube account.

The bus driver is been made out to be the dangerous one but clearly the video has been edited and anything previous the cyclist/poster has cut out.

I myself have come across cyclists like himself many times and even have complaints sent in from some saying things like I was speeding, dangerous driving, I didn't let them into the bus lane? many things that didn't even happen.

By the way it isn't just cyclists but all road users can be up to all sorts.

I hope for Liam's sake he goes and does a course on how to cycle defensively and not aggressively and maybe takes a little step back so to speak and realize he is not in a cage that will crumble in order to help protect him.

I agree the driver could have handled things better and honestly would have been better not even getting into conversation.
The driver said if you cycle like that you will end up getting run over and the cyclist then changed this and brought threats into the game so to speak.

I don't see this as big news or even warrant getting a whole day on the news every hour as there are a hell of a lot worse and serious things going on.

Are wonderful Transport minister a while back thought up a great idea to open up the road as where before if a cycle lane was provided it must have been used but now that is not the case so what is the point of painting lines and putting down the special red anti slip surface.

What I have heard from cyclists is they hate the red surface as it eats their tyres and even in Liams videos he cycles most of the time in the middle of the road anyway.
I fully understand some cycle lanes were in bad shape but a lot have been redone and are in some cases better then the road surface but some cyclists still insist on cycling out in traffic and this is where trouble can happen.

Just some views I have and not condoning either parties behavior.
Also earlier he had a picture on his profile on youtube now this has been changed to a cute little cat ah he must be such a little angel...

monument

There's not just one mistake made by the bus driver, there's more than a few:

-- not indicating before moving in
-- not checking if his inside is clear before turning / crossing lane markings
-- going into a solid line cycle lane
-- very close to the turn, overtaking a second cyclist who was ahead of the bus before the driver started indicating and who ends up behind the bus by the time the driver stops away from the bus stop for a chat
-- opens his bus' door away from the kerb, apparently to let a passenger off (against Dublin Bus rules)
-- engaging in an argument with somebody he has nearly harmed
-- saying he's going to run somebody over regardless of why

Maybe one or two of those might be forgivable, but not all of then together.

suicide_circus

i find buses lethal when cycling

corktina

I'm amazed so many can be blaming the cyclist here. The bus pulled in to the reserved cycle lane where he had no right to be. Whatever else may have happened in the heat of the moment, that was the problem and the Bus Driver was 100% to blame in that had he not pulled into somewhere he shouldn't be, there would have been no incident

Alias G

I guess because whilst the cyclist may be technically correct in this and many of his other vids, where on earth does he think he gets the authority to go about lecturing and remonstrating with other road users.

monument

Alias G wrote: »

I guess because whilst the cyclist may be technically correct in this and many of his other vids, where on earth does he think he gets the authority to go about lecturing and remonstrating with other road users.

I'm guessing he thinks he gets that when people swing cars and buses ontop of him or otherwise endanger him!

CramCycle

monument wrote: »

-- opens his bus' door away from the kerb, apparently to let a passenger off (against Dublin Bus rules)

I seen him swerve out really wide and then wondered why he had pulled in at all, thought maybe he came back for the chat but it made no sense, never even noticed the passenger pick up.

corktina wrote: »

I'm amazed so many can be blaming the cyclist here. The bus pulled in to the reserved cycle lane where he had no right to be. Whatever else may have happened in the heat of the moment, that was the problem and the Bus Driver was 100% to blame in that had he not pulled into somewhere he shouldn't be, there would have been no incident

Definitely the bus drivers fault, I think the only criticism I would have of the cyclists was his own reaction in that slamming the brakes would have appeared safer (not more legal or right, just safer IMO) rather than the burst for the narrowing gap. That said, I have done it myself and when the fight or flight response kicks in it is hard to make the right call. His camera might also skew it a bit as I know my own makes everything look closer or further away depending on where I am looking as I initially thought he nearly clipped the cyclist in front.

Tenzor07

I reckon Liam needs to forget about uploading his daily commutes to YouTube, and just get along with his daily cycle. He will end up wrecking his own head and becoming paranoid that every motorised vehicle is out to get him.

I don't agree with self-appointed road vigilantes, stopping and lecturing people on there mistakes, e.g. caught over the advanced stop line.. it just antagonizes people. Let the Gards fine someone for breaking the rules.

Liam suffered from some road rage here, and posted it up online for all to see. I don't think it's painted him in a great light and seems to be stoking up some fierce anti-cyclist comments online also.

Danjamin1

Both in the wrong, the driver for encroaching and the cyclist for not having more sense in the situation. No point insisting on being in the right if you end up under a bus in the process.

CramCycle

Tenzor07 wrote: »

I don't agree with self-appointed road vigilantes, stopping and lecturing people on there mistakes, e.g. caught over the advanced stop line.. it just antagonizes people. Let the Gards fine someone for breaking the rules.

I haven't looked at any of his other videos so can't comment on the guy but you have a point to a degree. There are some guys in the UK like Traffic Droid or Wolf Simpson, where every slight, perceived or real (although TDs are technically true, the Wolf guy seems to fly off the handle over nothing in alot of cases) who do themselves no favours. I see road users of all types do stupid things every day, I rant about it on the cycling forum if I am in bad form, but that's it, the majority of the time I don't even remember it a minute later because it may have been stupid or illegal but it really did not affect me and that is the job of the Gardai to enforce these laws. If they ask for witnesses I would step forward but other than that, its not my place and as much as people may not like it, the Gardai are busy enough without having to hunt down minor traffic violations that won't hold up in court.

On the other hand, there have been a few instances where I felt I was either unnoticed or i was intentionally squeezed. Most of the time I roll up, say "excuse me, I don't know if you noticed but back there you nearly done a, b or c, I am not having a go, just saying, maybe be a bit more cautious", 99% of the time, I get a "So sorry, I honestly didn't see you (not a fair excuse but I accept it) or I misjudged it". I hope that these people learn, and think the next time, I usually avoid the situation being a near miss by using brakes and altering road position. A few don't accept the polite tone, and go off the handle, I usually smile and if I am awake enough say something drenched in sarcasm and sunshine. If they tell me they done it on purpose because I shouldn't be there I generally react differently, most times I report it to the Gardai (it has not been that many, maybe 1 a year) the rest I just use unparliamentary language and leave. I did have one guy park up the road, get out of his van and try to hit me as I passed because I stopped at a red light and he thought I was trying to block him, the truth is, in some cases, you will just never win.

Tenzor07

CramCycle wrote: »

I haven't looked at any of his other videos so can't comment on the guy but you have a point to a degree. There are some guys in the UK like Traffic Droid or Wolf Simpson, where every slight, perceived or real (although TDs are technically true, the Wolf guy seems to fly off the handle over nothing in alot of cases) who do themselves no favours..

What I think is that technology has brought the "Super-complainers" to the general public's attention where previously they remained anonymous.

It just so happens that Droid, Wolf, CycleDub, and even the likes of Liam are on bicycles, they could just as easily be on scooters, skates, foot, cars, trucks and videoing other road users making mistakes for upload to YouTube/Twitter etc. They won't discriminate, you make a mistake and you're going to be made a public show of on Social media.

I also don't entirely believe they have the greater good of promoting road safety and conditions for other road users at heart, are they involved with city cycling campaigns? Have they started there own safety campaign's? Are they in contact with there local Councillors about the issues out there? Probably not...

Tenzor07

New TV show coming out on ITV Soon, "Road Rage Britain"

http://vimeo.com/97111751

TV1 Monday 9th June 2014. 9.00pm

The British lead the world in Road Rage. Now, confrontations and clashes are all being caught on camera by the motorists & cyclist in the thick of it. In a fight for supremacy between two wheels versus four we attempt to discover what is causing these regular traffic temper tantrums. Featuring video clips & interviews with not only those who have suffered road rage, but also those who have dished it out. And in a unique experiment, 2 cyclists, a London cabbie and White Van Man trade their modes of transport to see if they can learn to respect their fellow road users in the never ending battle of road rage Britain.

Hilly Bill

monument wrote: »

I'm guessing he thinks he gets that when people swing cars and buses ontop of him or otherwise endanger him!

He put himself in danger but because he is a fellow cyclist you dont mention it.

He was at the rear of the bus when it moved in for a reason only the bus driver knows. The cyclists saw this and still cycled faster on the inside of the bus putting himself in danger and then moved into the front of the bus just to annoy the bus driver. Is it a coincidence that fellow cyclists will blame others before one of their own?

CramCycle

Hilly Bill wrote: »

He put himself in danger but because he is a fellow cyclist you dont mention it.

He was at the rear of the bus when it moved in for a reason only the bus driver knows. The cyclists saw this and still cycled faster on the inside of the bus putting himself in danger and then moved into the front of the bus just to annoy the bus driver. Is it a coincidence that fellow cyclists will blame others before one of their own?

That's rubbish, the bus put him in danger as it pulled in noticeably when he was half way up the inside. In hindsight the best (IMO) option would have been to slam on the brakes and let him cross over but as he was already traveling at speed, he might not be fully aware of who is behind him, the rush of adrenaline as your life is put at risk, he has several reasons why he sped up to get out the gap. Was he correct, I don't think so but he made it so maybe his reading of the situation was right. He pulled in front of the bus as if he kept going at the speed to clear the bus without pulling over he would have creamed the person in front and if he slowed down he would have been in the drivers blind spot.

The bus caused the near incident and the danger but the cyclist probably could have reacted better. Any sense they both would learn from it, the driver to use his mirrors and to better estimate traffic approaching from the rear, the cyclist to possibly react more for his own safety but as I said, he may have though it was the only option.

monument

Hilly Bill wrote: »

He put himself in danger but because he is a fellow cyclist you dont mention it.

He was at the rear of the bus when it moved in for a reason only the bus driver knows. The cyclists saw this and still cycled faster on the inside of the bus putting himself in danger and then moved into the front of the bus just to annoy the bus driver. Is it a coincidence that fellow cyclists will blame others before one of their own?

You need to get over the cyclist vs motorists -- it's people making mistakes and we should be looking at what has happened, not what type of road user they are or you or I are.

While the person cycling might have reacted better, he was only reacting to the driver's poor driving.

On the face of it the bus driver's actions should be against the law on a number of counts -- entering a solid lined cycle lane, moving in without rightly observing that there's a cyclist in the space, moving in before indicating, overtaking a second person on a bike just seconds before moving in, opening the bus doors without being at a kerb (likely against Dublin Bus rules but it should also be illegal too), and telling somebody they'll kill them (regardless of if it's implied that it'll be the victim's own fault.

Note: I'm saying should be illegal, should be against the law -- I can't say for sure the actions are so.

Hilly Bill

monument wrote: »

You need to get over the cyclist vs motorists -- it's people making mistakes and we should be looking at what has happened, not what type of road user they are or you or I are.

While the person cycling might have reacted better, he was only reacting to the driver's poor driving.

On the face of it the bus driver's actions should be against the law on a number of counts -- entering a solid lined cycle lane, moving in without rightly observing that there's a cyclist in the space, moving in before indicating, overtaking a second person on a bike just seconds before moving in, opening the bus doors without being at a kerb (likely against Dublin Bus rules but it should also be illegal too), and telling somebody they'll kill them (regardless of if it's implied that it'll be the victim's own fault.

Note: I'm saying should be illegal, should be against the law -- I can't say for sure the actions are so.

Cyclist v motorists? Why are you trying to make something out of nothing? S
I dont need to get over anything Monument, i read it as i see it , try it sometime it usually helps to see an impartial side to things instead of the side you favour. Thats a strange comment to make by a moderator.
So the bus moved a bit into a bike lane, its no big deal. It happens, the clip doesnt show what was happening on the other side.
The loon with the head cam wasnt in the space at the time the bus moved in, he moved into that space afterwards just to make an issue out of it.How do you know the driver didnt check his mirrors first?
The driver doesnt say anything about that he is going to kill him, are you looking at the same clip or just going by the OTT title of the clip by your fellow cyclist. What was said and you may know already is that if the cyclist keeps riding like he does he will end up dead. Trying to spin it for affect make him out to be a loon.
If the cyclist was as shaken as he said he was then why did he chase the bus in the middle of the road and even turn around and not even look where he was going?
The bus was pulled into a bus stop when it let people off the bus. The loon was that selfish that he doesnt care that he could have caused a serious accident with his road rage.

Spook_ie

From motoring

Spook_ie wrote: »

Actually if you look at the clip immediate start is a guy in a red T Shirt over taking (love the 1.5m Gap he gives the bus and the other Q )

At 6 secs you should also notice there is a cyclist pulls over from the cyclist lane across the front of the bus ( You can see the cyclist at 11 secs through the windscreen of the bus )

I therefore put it to the court that bus driver was actually taking avoiding action from the 2nd cyclist and to prevent injury to that cyclist and to his passengers he slowed and veered left and indicated ( all in a space of 4-5 seconds ) The camera man ( in hindsight ) should have taken account of other traffic and cyclists before berating the driver.

BTW After replaying it umpteen times the driver actually says
"If you wanna die, just go in front of me, I'll run you over no problem"
Probably not the best choice of words but I don't get an implied threat there, more of a warning about his cycling behavior, probably in response to him crossing in front of the bus

monument

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Thats a strange comment to make by a moderator.

Talking about moderation, including my status as a moderator won't be tolerated. Note: I have not moderated your comments and I was not even slight acting as a mod in my last post.

If I abuse my position there's robust means of dealing with this.

You really need to read the sections of the charter dealing with moderation, and, more generally, the sections of focusing on the poster rather than their post.

- moderator

monument

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Cyclist v motorists? Why are you trying to make something out of nothing? S
I dont need to get over anything Monument, i read it as i see it , try it sometime it usually helps to see an impartial side to things instead of the side you favour.

If you want to look at things impartial, deal with what I've said and not with the fact that I'm a cyclist.

Hilly Bill wrote: »

So the bus moved a bit into a bike lane, its no big deal. It happens, the clip doesnt show what was happening on the other side.

It's a big deal with there's a cyclist inside that cycle lane.

Hilly Bill wrote: »

The loon with the head cam wasnt in the space at the time the bus moved in, he moved into that space afterwards just to make an issue out of it.

He was in the cycle lane and alongside the bus when the bus driver entered the cycle lane.

I've already agreed that the cyclist could have acted better and by that I mean slowed down etc.

The cyclist was more than half way up the bus when the driver kept moving it. It looks to be a misjudgment but maybe the cyclist spotted what he viewed in a split second to be a safter way out by speeding up?

Hilly Bill wrote: »

How do you know the driver didnt check his mirrors first?

What did I say? Have a look back.

Hilly Bill wrote: »

The driver doesnt say anything about that he is going to kill him, are you looking at the same clip or just going by the OTT title of the clip by your fellow cyclist. What was said and you may know already is that if the cyclist keeps riding like he does he will end up dead.

Spook is hardly a cyclist's best friend and yet look what he thinks the driver said.

Hilly Bill wrote: »

If the cyclist was as shaken as he said he was then why did he chase the bus in the middle of the road and even turn around and not even look where he was going?

An adrenaline rush and nearly getting knocked over by a large bus can aid people in doing silly things.

Hilly Bill wrote: »

The bus was pulled into a bus stop when it let people off the bus. The loon was that selfish that he doesnt care that he could have caused a serious accident with his road rage.

The bus was NOT pulled into the bus stop. The video clearly shows that the bus is outside the bus stop markings where he stopped.

Maybe you're watching a different video?

CramCycle

Hilly Bill wrote: »

He put himself in danger but because he is a fellow cyclist you dont mention it.

Please stop using this phrase as it is what monument is referring to. We are not a homogeneous group, like all other road users, we are individuals, just because one DB driver does not merge properly/safely does not mean they all do, as with cyclists, one guy making a poor decision does not mean all cyclists do. Not all motorists sit on yellow boxes and amber gamble etc. Get my point?

CramCycle

Originally Posted by Spook_ie
Actually if you look at the clip immediate start is a guy in a red T Shirt over taking (love the 1.5m Gap he gives the bus and the other Q )

The next time you see this guy at the end of the video he has merged into the right lane of traffic as he had correctly started to merge over well before the right turn he was planning to take.

At 6 secs you should also notice there is a cyclist pulls over from the cyclist lane across the front of the bus ( You can see the cyclist at 11 secs through the windscreen of the bus )

And, he merged well before the bus was there, not sure why he is being brought into it.

I therefore put it to the court that bus driver was actually taking avoiding action from the 2nd cyclist and to prevent injury to that cyclist and to his passengers he slowed and veered left and indicated ( all in a space of 4-5 seconds ) The camera man ( in hindsight ) should have taken account of other traffic and cyclists before berating the driver.

Veered left for who? the guy in the red can be seen in a seperate lane of traffic, the guy in front was in front. If he wanted to avoid any of those cyclists all he needed to do was either a) nothing, they were not interfering with him or b) slow down

BTW After replaying it umpteen times the driver actually says
"If you wanna die, just go in front of me, I'll run you over no problem"
Probably not the best choice of words but I don't get an implied threat there, more of a warning about his cycling behavior, probably in response to him crossing in front of the bus

I agree with you here, I think in the moment, adrenaline and sarcasm got intertwined. He may have said it but I don't think he actually meant if you are in front of me I will run you over. Still an incredibly stupid statement though, pulling over to say it was equally stupid, he was miles away from the bus stop I presume he pulled in for.

Losty Dublin

monument wrote: »

You need to get over the cyclist vs motorists -- it's people making mistakes and we should be looking at what has happened, not what type of road user they are or you or I are.

While the person cycling might have reacted better, he was only reacting to the driver's poor driving.

On the face of it the bus driver's actions should be against the law on a number of counts -- entering a solid lined cycle lane, moving in without rightly observing that there's a cyclist in the space, moving in before indicating, overtaking a second person on a bike just seconds before moving in, opening the bus doors without being at a kerb (likely against Dublin Bus rules but it should also be illegal too), and telling somebody they'll kill them (regardless of if it's implied that it'll be the victim's own fault.

Note: I'm saying should be illegal, should be against the law -- I can't say for sure the actions are so.

It's rather hard for a large bus to stay out of the cycle lane on Arran Quay as the traffic lanes there are little narrow, especially when there is traffic on the outside lane to contend with. A lot of motorists and cyclists don't entertain this or the fact that buses and trucks need a little bit more room to manoeuvre around them or other obstacles on the road.

Whatever we may think of them, bus drivers for Dublin Bus are exceptionally well trained. They undergo driving testing to get their B and D licences, they have additional driver training on their respective classes of bus they drive and their CPC passes as well as regular refresher and inspections; more than any cyclist or car driver got, that's for sure. The cyclist should not be cutting inside buses or trucks regardless of cycle lanes being in situ. It is plain dangerous and it is an argument that a bike will not win, right or wrongs. By the looks of this guys Youtube channel, he seems to have a penchant for encountering dangerous drivers; thankfully he is a small minority when it comes to road users on two wheels.

Tenzor07

Hilly Bill wrote: »

So the bus moved a bit into a bike lane, its no big deal. It happens, the clip doesnt show what was happening on the other side.
The bus was pulled into a bus stop when it let people off the bus. The loon was that selfish that he doesnt care that he could have caused a serious accident with his road rage.

So, no big deal eh? If you were driving your car and a much larger vehicle started to stray into your lane without indicating what would you do?

The basic fact here is the bus driver didn't check his mirrors before moving in, and didn't indicate when he first moved in, and the bus stop was still further up the road so he didn't need to come into the kerb at that point, and in doing so he crossed a solid white line when he did not need to.

No one is saying the bicyclist was an angel though, and would he have done the same manoeuvre in front of the bus if it was an 18 wheel crane truck? Not unless he was feeling suicidal! but on the road the responsibility goes from the largest road user down to the smallest.

Spook_ie

CramCycle wrote: »

The next time you see this guy at the end of the video he has merged into the right lane of traffic as he had correctly started to merge over well before the right turn he was planning to take.

And, he merged well before the bus was there, not sure why he is being brought into it.

Veered left for who? the guy in the red can be seen in a seperate lane of traffic, the guy in front was in front. If he wanted to avoid any of those cyclists all he needed to do was either a) nothing, they were not interfering with him or b) slow down


I agree with you here, I think in the moment, adrenaline and sarcasm got intertwined. He may have said it but I don't think he actually meant if you are in front of me I will run you over. Still an incredibly stupid statement though, pulling over to say it was equally stupid, he was miles away from the bus stop I presume he pulled in for.

The 2nd guy, the one who veered from the cycle lane to turn right is part of the reason why the driver would have veered left, he made an instinctive call to slow and pull left to give that cyclist more room, at 12 seconds you can see that he is still on the left side of the white line, the bus driver is between a rock and a hard place does he

A Hit The Cyclist
B Hit the anchors and injure people on the bus ( as one passenger is seen to exit the bus It's a fair assumption she was probably standing at the time )
C Slow and make an instinctive move to the left and indicate as he manouvres

Neither of the options is an ideal but option C would probably have seemed the lessor of the 3 at the time

As to the stop itself it's quite conceviable that given a cyclist doing a U-Turn in front of him that he may have not been able to complete a tidy manouvre and ended up stuck there

hoodwinked

Tenzor07 wrote: »

So, no big deal eh? If you were driving your car and a much larger vehicle started to stray into your lane without indicating what would you do?
.

not find myself on the left hand side of a larger vehicle? you are completely in their blind spots and most buses and trucks have signs warning you not to drive there,

i would assume the same applies to cyclists more so?

honestly if i was cycling in that situation i would have stayed behind the bus, or overtook the bus, not undertake it and risk myself being squashed by a large vehicle where the driver cannot see me. expect the unexpected and all that.....

Tenzor07

hoodwinked wrote: »

not find myself on the left hand side of a larger vehicle? you are completely in their blind spots and most buses and trucks have signs warning you not to drive there,
i would assume the same applies to cyclists more so?

Having warning signs or stickers on the back of your vehicle doesn't absolve you from the responsibilities of checking your mirrors and indicating in good time?

hoodwinked

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Having warning signs or stickers on the back of your vehicle doesn't absolve you from the responsibilities of checking your mirrors and indicating in good time?

no but staying away from the blind spot on large vehicles can save your life and stop you getting squished.

Tenzor07

Thanks for the advice.

seamus

Spook_ie wrote: »

The 2nd guy, the onje who veered from the cycle lane to turn rightis part of the reason why the driver would have veered left, he made an instinctive call to slow and pull left to give that cyclist more room

The speed differential clearly isn't that big. There is already one cyclist in the cycle lane and another in the bus lane, so he's not moving at any great speed. The appropriate response here would clearly be to take your foot off the accelerator and/or brake gently.
I don't disagree that he was probably moving left to move around the right-turning bike, but that doesn't excuse his failure to check his left side.
Given that a Dublin Bus has a 23 tonne kerb weight, then when faced with the option of hitting the brakes or moving left without checking your left side, then braking is clearly the preferable option. 40 injured bus passengers are preferable to one dead cyclist.

There is a lot more being made of this than there needs to be. The driver's clearly not the best communicator in the world, and we all know that he was basically trying to say is, "Look, I'm driving a big fecking vehicle and if you act the maggot around it, you're going to get flattened". The driver could do with a crash course in defensive driving though, he's not giving himself much wiggle room in his maneuvers.
The cyclist likewise could do with being slapped with a bit of common sense. There are so many clear reasons why he should never have started that overtake, which would have avoided the whole incident.

patrickbrophy18

Having watched the video, the bus driver acted entirely unprofessional. He clearly forgot one of the mandatory rules of driving when he was pulling into the stop. When making a stop in this manner, you're supposed to check your mirrors, activate your signal indicators and move in (if it is safe to do so). Given that the cyclist was on the inside of the bus, the driver should have waited for the cyclist to pass before moving towards the path. Thank god the cyclist wasn't crushed as it could have been a lot worse.

monument wrote: »

On the face of it the bus driver's actions should be against the law on a number of counts -- entering a solid lined cycle lane, moving in without rightly observing that there's a cyclist in the space, moving in before indicating, overtaking a second person on a bike just seconds before moving in, opening the bus doors without being at a kerb (likely against Dublin Bus rules but it should also be illegal too), and telling somebody they'll kill them (regardless of if it's implied that it'll be the victim's own fault.

The word in bold is the most crucial factor in being a safe driver as it enables the driver to anticipate the actions of other (vulnerable) road users.

While the fault in this case is mostly that of the bus driver, I do put some of the blame on the abysmal design of the road in question. The lack of proper segregation coupled with the miniscule width of the cycle lane make it all to easy for buses to collide with cyclists. As a would-be cyclist, I would be terrified of using the cycle lane as there is very little clearance between myself and the bus. Going by the perspective of the cyclists camera, the cycle lane appears to be only 1 meter in width. Either that, or there isn't much in it. Cycle lanes should be a minimum of 1.5 meters in width. Sadly, in many cases, the cycle lane and bus lane are one in the same. The Rock Road QBC comes to mind. If a QBC is to be built, there should be a minimum width set to accommodate all modes comfortably and (most important of all) safely.

AlekSmart

Spook_ie wrote: »

.
As to the stop itself it's quite conceviable that given a cyclist doing a U-Turn in front of him that he may have not been able to complete a tidy manouvre and ended up stuck there

Without going into any further exchanges regarding the ongoing campaign to perceive Cyclists = Right vs Busdrivers = Wrong,I would prefer to richochet a wee bit to the location of the Bus-Stop to which Spook_ie refers,Stop 1477, which (hopefully) is easier to appreciate from the air....(Using the zoom and pan features)

https://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Examples/Google-Map/?routeNumber=145&direction=IO&towards=Kilmacanogue&from=Heuston+Rail+Station

I would invite any interested parties to comment upon the,supposedly professional,process which firstly relocated a previous non-contentious Stop outside of the,now disused Arran Quay Church, to this ablolutely batshyt crazy location.

I would have little hesitation in calling for some form of inquiry into the professional competence of whatever Civic or Garda functionary signed off on Stop 1477's location.

The actual Stop,and persons standing at it,remain largely invisible to an approaching busdriver until very late on an approach,which tends to encourage,or even enforce belated acute manouvere's of the 21 BAC routes required to serve this Stop.

Viewed from above,the lack of ANY professional design acumen is all the more apparent....The actual BAC stopping bay is curved,and bracketed by,firstly,a Disabled Parking Bay (:eek:) then a Delivery Bay (:eek: :eek:)

Any bus,having addressed the Stop (NB: it is impossible for many of BAC's current vehicle types to correctly and safely address it)then must exit it,within a VERY short stretch of roadway, by crossing at an acute angle into & through the Left-Turn Only Lane (Into Church St) AND a solid bordered Cycle Lane to re-enter the Bus Lane and then yet again track left to attain the now Left Hand Bus-Lane on Inns Quay.

It is,quite simply,one of the most workload intensive stretches of roadway along which BAC drivers operate,and this workload on the "average" driver is at extreme levels here,which were this in the aviation field,would have resulted in the removal of this inherently unsafe Stop long ago.

The Stop has,since it's inception,been the subject of strong representations from concerned Individual Busdrivers,Trade Union Reps AND Health & Safety Reps to BAC Management,Garda Siochana,Dublin City Council and I understand the RSA...however despite initial rumours that the Stop had comprehensively failed a Risk-Assessment,it remains standing proud as testimony to potentially fatal official intransigence.

I would also point out that the Bus Bay,also serves as a "Stop" for BOTH competing Open Top City Tours,with the attendant longer dwell times associated with their operations,which overlays yet another layer of danger onto the 21 routes required to "serve" it.

With the imminent expansion of the DublinBikes scheme,particularly in the Heuston Station area,I would suggest that ALL interested parties take a more active interest in encouraging "The Civic Authorities" to become pro-active in ensuring blatently dangerous and unsustainable Traffic Situations such as exist at Stop 1477,are not proceeded with in the fiirst place,rather than the all to familiar Admiral Nelson approach of blind-eyeing it until the (I believe inevitable) fatality occurs.

Seaswimmer

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

.

As a would-be cyclist,

Hey Patrick. Knew we would sign you up eventually. Dont forget to come on over to the cycling forum..