Smart guns

rowa

Seen this on bbc's "click" technology programme, a pistol being developed in germany that can only be fired by its owner.

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-27520267

http://www.armatix.de/iP1-Pistol.779.0.html?&L=1

Sparks

Something similar being developed for cops in the US - pull the gun and it automatically calls for backup with a GPS coordinate to save the cop from making the radio call.

That one in the BBC report though, has seen a lot of nasty ****e in the US with gun dealers getting death threats from gun owners for selling it and the woman who runs the company being sent death threats including photos of her walking around from a long-distance telephoto lens. Apparently there's a law in New Jersey that says once one of these hits the market, then within a set timeframe, no other kind of firearm can be sold legally anymore. The politician who authored the bill has offered to sponsor a new bill to repeal that law if the NRA would drop its opposition to "smart" guns, the NRA has refused so far to do so.

cerastes

It can still be fired within ten inches of the RFID wristwatch device, so the proper user might be shot at point blank range still, plus it goes on about RFID's being hacked, so a user (In the US) might not be able to defend themselves? or they might be rendered inoperable by someone else. I believe Apple can already render inoperable cameras and phones en masse if they want.

http://news.techeye.net/security/apple-patents-tech-to-let-cops-switch-off-iphone-video-camera-and-wi-fi

Sparks

Yeah, there are some technical issues that should be debated, and no technical solution is ever going to be perfect, that's rather a given.

Sending the CEO a photograph of her out walking and a note saying the photographer has no problem killing her because of the product is, however, not debate and not acceptable. The US lads are not covering themselves in glory here.

cerastes

Sparks wrote: »

Yeah, there are some technical issues that should be debated, and no technical solution is ever going to be perfect, that's rather a given.

Sending the CEO a photograph of her out walking and a note saying the photographer has no problem killing her because of the product is, however, not debate and not acceptable. The US lads are not covering themselves in glory here.

Last para, no doubt. I thought NJ had strict handgun laws already. I think there are other ways to restrict access to firearms. Although being more readily available means that would require more work.

rowa

Sparks wrote: »

Something similar being developed for cops in the US - pull the gun and it automatically calls for backup with a GPS coordinate to save the cop from making the radio call.

That one in the BBC report though, has seen a lot of nasty ****e in the US with gun dealers getting death threats from gun owners for selling it and the woman who runs the company being sent death threats including photos of her walking around from a long-distance telephoto lens. Apparently there's a law in New Jersey that says once one of these hits the market, then within a set timeframe, no other kind of firearm can be sold legally anymore. The politician who authored the bill has offered to sponsor a new bill to repeal that law if the NRA would drop its opposition to "smart" guns, the NRA has refused so far to do so.

The whole of new york state seems very anti-firearm, i know that a massive city like new york has only a couple of gunshops. Also last year i seen one newspaper printed a full list of people who had handguns licenced in NY, if that happened here there would be uproar.

Dr Turk Turkelton

rowa wrote: »

The whole of new york state seems very anti-firearm, i know that a massive city like new york has only a couple of gunshops. Also last year i seen one newspaper printed a full list of people who had handguns licenced in NY, if that happened here there would be uproar.

Once you go upstate NY then they are very pro firearm. I remember going to one shop and the warning sign said "owner lives on premises" with a .50 calibre bullet sellotaped to the sign.

Sparks

rowa wrote: »

Also last year i seen one newspaper printed a full list of people who had handguns licenced in NY, if that happened here there would be uproar.

There was uproar there too from what I remember. It was being compared to publication of the home addresses of muslims the day after the world trade center attacks because of the context (it was just after a mass shooting).

meathstevie

Smart guns would be the bullet, pardon the pun, for the so called public safety hobby horse some people need to jump on over here from time to time. A trigger mechanism or safety catch calibrated on the finger print of the licenced user, no match no bang..stolen guns blah blah criminals blah blah all dead in the water.

garv123

Did they get the idea from judge dredd? Pistol only fires if its in the judges hand.. blows up if anyone else fires it

Sparks

Other way round - the earliest ideas for this kind of tech go back before the Dredd comics. There was one that used a magnet in a ring and a corresponding magnet in a trigger lock, for example, that's from 1975, while the comics start in 1977.

tac foley

Weel, here on main land UK we have handguns that only the licensed owner is permitted to shoot, but this is different.

Personally, I don't see the point of using technology like this. The criminal, if so inclined, could beat somebody to death with their own gun without squeezing the trigger.

tac

cookimonster

Since the thread has drifted slightly, here's a interesting vid about high capacity mags, apologies if all ready up here.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=MCSySuemiHU

Grizzly 45

Dr Turk Turkelton wrote: »

Once you go upstate NY then they are very pro firearm. I remember going to one shop and the warning sign said "owner lives on premises" with a .50 calibre bullet sellotaped to the sign.

Apart from the fact it is one of the states that post Sandy Hook introduced a high cap mag ban and assault rifle ban under very dubious circumstances. You might as well own a straight pull bolt action UK AR15 in NY,as your chances of owning a semi are virtually NILL now.
The German company doing this is Armartix.A hated company by most German shooting organisations as it has been trying to meddle and push its gun saftey products,that are literally utter electronic gun control devices to the German govt and police forces.Their breech block device is known dispragingly by most German shooters as "the dildo" As it looks like a vibrator and does exactly that to your gun as well.

You dont have to worry about these guns being developed in the US or Germany.There is a company in good ol County Limerick developing this technology.

http://www.triggersmart.com/pages/company.aspx

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/irish-inventors-are-developing-a-james-bondstyle-smart-gun-30053262.html


The fear isnt in the US actual smart technology ,its how it could be applied.Say something like the LA riots happens,and the local govt decides to block all guns bar the police or military firearms...Sounds great,but what happens if the criminals have un chipped guns and you the innocent party trying to defend your house are have a blocked firearm because of law enforcement concerns??:eek:

tac foley

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

...but what happens if the criminals have un chipped guns and you the innocent party trying to defend your house are have a blocked firearm because of law enforcement concerns??:eek:

Yup, I can see it right now...lines of crimnals outside the conversion station getting their illegal guns all chipped up....

Not.

Why is it that politicians of all persuasions, in and out of government, and all over the world, still haven't latched on to the obvious FACT that criminals ignore any laws - that's why they are called criminals.

tac

Grizzly 45

Indeed,some peoples naive mindsets reminds me of an episode of the Simpsons where the entire world gets rid of all guns and arms,and the two tentacled drooling aliens arrive in Springfield and take over the planet armed with a catapult and a 2x4 with two nails stuck in it.:rolleyes:

Sparks

I can't really say that's a good argument against any development of "smart gun" tech. There's too much good potential in there, even with today's technology. Consider this one, for example:



http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/04/22/beretta-px4i-storm-i-protect-system/

The cop wears an undervest that has sensors on it for heartrate and so forth. If he/she pulls their sidearm, then the pistol itself calls for backup from nearby cops, reducing the cop's workload. The dispatcher can then monitor their vitals, whether shots are fired and so on. It gives the police far greater situational awareness. Strap a gun camera into that thing, and you now have a far easier time of things come after-action hearings. And in the event that you have police doing things they shouldn't the system makes it easier to spot that as well (easier, not easy).

tac foley

Removed on consideration of subsequent posts, and now incorporated into Post #25.

tac

Sparks

I don't think we need them here, given that we don't have guns for that kind of purpose here, but if you were living in the US and had to use a firearm in self-defence, I could see a gun camera being of benefit for the same reason dashcams are of benefit in Russia - as sources of additional evidence during the legal aftermath.

And that's smart gun tech too. Also, I can't help but notice that the first of these systems came on the market 30-odd years ago, and the furore today didn't erupt then; indicating that the problem is not the tech but the laws. So yelling at the tech (not to mention the downright nasty ****e pulled against it) seems like fury pointed in completely the wrong direction to me.

Witcher

The only thing is; what happens to models that can't be retrofitted with this tech? I imagine it would be hard to cram this stuff into a Walther PPK or a SAA.

I wouldn't find it hard to believe the hardline pro gun side in the US being against this and threatening lives because of it. Some of the things you read on US forums etc. would get you locked up here; threatening to shoot police if they come and try to round up AR-15's etc. The average person here has no idea how tightly some people grip the 2A in the US.

Sparks

But we're walking a really thin line beside the forum charter here, so to bring it back to the fold, what smart tech on your pistol would help with your sport?

Manach

Given the potential both to save lives from accidental use of the guns by unauthorised people within a domestic setting, and still be used by the proper owner in other circumstances - at first glance it does seem a good idea.

tac foley

Sparks wrote: »

But we're walking a really thin line beside the forum charter here, so to bring it back to the fold, what smart tech on your pistol would help with your sport?

A gyroscopic steadying device would have been useful yesterday for one noob who was shooting my Ruger Old Army - he sure had some shakes going on.

After all, if you can have one in a cheaper digital camera..........

tac

Sparks

Has actually come up in ISSF rules discussions in the past, that one...

tac foley

Manach wrote: »

Given the potential both to save lives from accidental use of the guns by unauthorised people within a domestic setting, and still be used by the proper owner in other circumstances - at first glance it does seem a good idea.

Yup, it would have stopped a number of pointless and heartbreaking shootings in the US over the last couple of years if the 'child of the house with mental health issues' could not have gotten hold of dad's or mom's guns and gone a'slaughtering other kids and their teachers.

tac

tac foley

Sparks wrote: »

Has actually come up in ISSF rules discussions in the past, that one...

Of that I have no doubt. Fact is, particularly in handgun shooting, you reach a plateau of ability from which there is only a steady and inexorable descent into mediocrity, assuming, of course, that you were once better than mediocre anyhow.

I consider myself lucky these days to hit the high eighties with any degree of consistency with any of my handguns.

Wistful ain't even in it.

tac

Grizzly 45

tac foley wrote: »

Yup, it would have stopped a number of pointless and heartbreaking shootings in the US over the last couple of years if the 'child of the house with mental health issues' could not have gotten hold of dad's or mom's guns and gone a'slaughtering other kids and their teachers.

tac

Apart if Mommy or Daddy leave their super dooper smart gun and ring,watch,pendant or whatever "key" lying around as well for Jnr the looper to pick up as well as with the ammo. Unless we all want to get "chipped" like our dogs I cant see a way round this.. Whats to stop a criminal threatning to lop off your finger or whatever for your ring that activates the firing mechanism??
Also most people who are involved in using guns as part of their profession on aday to day basis arent too impressed with these smart guns either.

The guns sofar have not been able to unlock and allow the activation of the mechanism in the average LEO draw time from holster to being on target and firing in an average leisurely time of 1.5 seconds or less.They take on average 3.5 secs to 5 secs to activate.An eternity in a gunfight!

Something like this happened in Germany in Wenigenden/Winnidigen in the last school shooting. Dad left the gun in his bedside locker and left the keys out of his possesion to the the locked ammo box as well as the gun safe.Both in contravention to German gun laws.

In short proably not in our lifetimes and until all guns become somehow electronically triggered or "phased plasma rifles in the 40 watt range" or portable railguns,they are for the forseeable future still mechanical devices and the electronics an add on.

What current technology would be useful.
Micro cams,AKA guncams already available and useable.

Lazing rangefinder scopes ALA Burris Eleminator,handy if you want to teach people long distance shooting without confusing them about hold over,mil dots,etc.Better still buy a Leatherwood Hilux M1000 Camputer scope which is mechanical techonolgy of Vietnam vintage for a third of the price,does the same job and doesnt need a bunch of batteries to fail at a critical moment.:D

Thermal or FLIR scopes going to be the next thing that will put NV in the antique pile once they get below 1000 dollars.

Or just buy at ten thousand dollars a pop the smart rifle from tracking point
tracking-point.com/ and be able to reach out and touch to 1000 meters with little or no skill anymore.

Grizzly 45

tac foley wrote: »

Yu heartbreaking shootings in the US over the last e 'child of the house with mental health issues'
tac

"

"Troubled" Child or teenager is the polite expression these days Tac.:D:rolleyes:

What in our generation would have been generally sorted out by a swift application of a size 12[/EU size 46] boot to said "troubled childs" posterior,and some fatherly advice on the lines of copping on or growing up abit would be spoken.
It seemed to work pretty well for any childish infractions or disipline issues with us who grew up in the 60s or 70s.:p

Sparks

@Grizzly - (a) child mortality rates in the 1970s were almost exactly ten times what they are today, which is not a good thing; (b) the way we handled "troubled" kids in Ireland back then is now documented in things like the Ryan Report and the documentaries on the Magdelene Laundries and a dozen other heartbreaking documents; and (c) I can't even see the line in the charter from this thread anymore, so I'm chalking this thread up as another example of why RKBA ain't a good topic for in here.