Basic training Ukranian national gaurd

daithicarr

I dont want to start a thread on the conflict in Ukraine, I wanted to ask about basic training of the national guard there.

Ive seen a few times from various news sources that the Ukrainian National guard basic training is two weeks. This seems to be exceptionally short to me, given its a few months in most military's I know of.

Can anyone tell me what kind of things could they learn in two weeks?
Could they even learn to function properly as a unit?
Im aware some will have past military experience, but younger members wont.

What would be the minimum time required for a unit to be trained to fight in a counter insurgency campaign , where winning hearts and minds is as crucial as combat skills?

c-90

daithicarr wrote: »

I dont want to start a thread on the conflict in Ukraine, I wanted to ask about basic training of the national guard there.

Ive seen a few times from various news sources that the Ukrainian National guard basic training is two weeks. This seems to be exceptionally short to me, given its a few months in most military's I know of.

Can anyone tell me what kind of things could they learn in two weeks?
Could they even learn to function properly as a unit?
Im aware some will have past military experience, but younger members wont.

What would be the minimum time required for a unit to be trained to fight in a counter insurgency campaign , where winning hearts and minds is as crucial as combat skills?

I'd imagine givin the Ukraines exceptional circumstances they're function is to simply increase the size of they're defence force as a deterrent for Russian invasion.
2 weeks of training couldn't amount to much more than weapons handling/ small introduction to tactical training and a kit issue. More of a liability IMO than a deterrent.

daithicarr

It seemed to me not only would they be a liability for the general public, but also themselves, not to mention that they could be a easy target for anyone on the opposing side looking for more weapons?

I was wondering is it really the case they are so under trained ? I wonder if the reporters got it right. often they will do thinks like say "tanks entered the town" then show pictures of a few APC's, or say the snipers opened fire on the crowed and show a picture of some guy firing a shotgun. Which makes you wonder did the events take place as they stated and do they know the difference between very simple military terms (sniper rifle vs shotgun, Tank vs APC)

discus

2 weeks may not seem like much, however

Eastern europeans are hard as ****
Those who are joining now have the motivation of staving off invasion
And a lot can be learned in 2 weeks, by hard as **** motivated blokes.

daithicarr

Wow, a wee bit of a sweeping generalisation there , no?

I know lots and lots of "eastern Europeans, from various country's .
And they are by no means all hard as nails.
certainly there seems to be a slightly bigger macho culture. But the vast majority are just normal folk.
Plus if you watch a lot of the vidoes, listen to reports look at the photos, there is an extremely mixed bag of recruits, including a lot of skinny students

Being hard as , doesn't make one a good soldier. Im not expert but id bet my money that a cohesive unit of 10 well trained normal guys is worth at least two or three times its number of hard men strutting about with guns all thinking they are the top dog and with very little unit cohesion

discus

Of course being 'hard as' makes you a good soldier.

daithicarr

How exactly does being a hard man make you good at being a soldier.
Being physically fit, intelligent, able to work well in a group, adaptable are all characteristics which are far more important than being hard.
I know maybe a dozen people who serve in either our own, the UK or the US military, and not one would i describe as being a hard man. Yet a lot of them have risen high up the ranks. So obviously those military's at least dont prize being hard as an important attribute.

Navy seals for example are already fully trained members of the armed forces before they go through another year of training. its the training which makes a good soldier.

c-90

A 7.62 Round won't differentiate between someone who is hard as **** and a "normal" guy.

discus

eing physically fit, intelligent, able to work well in a group, adaptable are all characteristics which are far more important than being hard.

Yeah, maybe if you are working in a HR department.

daithicarr

think youre watching too much steven seagal movies

blindside88

discus wrote: »

eing physically fit, intelligent, able to work well in a group, adaptable are all characteristics which are far more important than being hard.

Yeah, maybe if you are working in a HR department.

So are you saying that those attributes aren't important in a soldier?

discus

daithicarr wrote: »

think youre watching too much steven seagal movies

Action movies are a good source of informatiob on military matters

Renegade Mechanic

Does Ukraine have automatic conscription? If everyone's already been through boot camp at an earlier stage of life, the two week course might only be to "oil the hinges", so to speak.

Xios

I set up this thread on reddit, hopefully there will be a response from the guys in Ukraine, you won't get a direct answer on boards, but on reddit you might.

http://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/26lnl0/request_anyone_who_trained_in_the_new_national/


Here's a blog from a national guardsman
http://vyuko-z-lycka.livejournal.com/ Need to use google translate on it though.

Here's an excerpt.

At night our positions were fired from battalion mortars (who does not vkursi then a terrible thing). And we're already accustomed to anything, no problem. Position bombardment was 1.2 km. so retaliation volleys of AGS yavlyalos no problem. And volleys was not ... Shelling was carried out of the court kindergarten ...
Peace locals resist the Nazis Bandera, who hands the blood on his shoulders alone. So they call it ...
And they have heretofore appeared ATGM also likely to mistsevoyu supermarket purchased ...

daithicarr

Thanks for That xios.
His blog is fairly hard to understand due to google translate not being the best, but you get an idea of whats going on.
Id read that excerpt as being under not very effective shelling, they are able to identify the position of the attach but unable to respond as it is in an area likely to cause collateral damage and provide propaganda boost to opponents that they are fighting facists. Then a bit about the enemy having an ATGM which he supposes they must have bought in the local supermarket ?

I know they did have conscription and it was being fazed out, from what i can gather they were not considered terribly well trained even after conscription. not sure why though.
Then there is always the chance that reporters might interview people with little prior military training cause it makes a better story ? David vs Goliath stuff.

Xios

daithicarr wrote: »

Then a bit about the enemy having an ATGM which he supposes they must have bought in the local supermarket ?

That's a joke, where are these militants getting these anti-tank missles? Sure down the local supermarket sells em, not getting support from an outside military at all.

The joke suggests that russia is arming the rebels, but I think a lot of smugglers have been crossing the border, and the incompetence of the UA has let many weapons caches fall into the rebel hands.

Here is an interview with a recent recruit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzAIXo9BeFA#t=420

This is about the pro-ukraine militants, or Donbass Battallion
https://news.vice.com/video/russian-roulette-dispatch-39

And this gives a picture of the rebel side, and how the locals support them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ceDd-q86_k#t=470

riffmongous

I saw an article on the Vostok battalion mentioned on the BBC earlier, I didn't realise that was the video it was referring to, thanks for posting it. The article in question was about Kadyrov's denial that them being there had anything to do with him, I had read too that the Vostok battalion was disbanded after the Georgian War.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27599836

Fantom

daithicarr wrote: »

I dont want to start a thread on the conflict in Ukraine, I wanted to ask about basic training of the national guard there.

Ive seen a few times from various news sources that the Ukrainian National guard basic training is two weeks. This seems to be exceptionally short to me, given its a few months in most military's I know of.

Can anyone tell me what kind of things could they learn in two weeks?
Could they even learn to function properly as a unit?
Im aware some will have past military experience, but younger members wont.

What would be the minimum time required for a unit to be trained to fight in a counter insurgency campaign , where winning hearts and minds is as crucial as combat skills?

You have to remember this first of all

The late Soviet Armed Forces were manned by mandatory draft (with some exceptions) for all able-bodied males for 2 years (3 years in the Navy), based on a 1967 law. A bi-annual call-up in spring and fall was introduced then, replacing the annual draft in fall. The conscripts were normally sent to serve far away from their place of residence.

Men were subject to draft at the age of 18. The draft could be postponed due to continued education.

"Most universities had an obligatory Military Chair which were in charge of military training of all able-bodied male students to become reserve officers of a particular military specialty depending on the university"


You can't leave the military unit for 2-3 years while you in Army.
can't have a pint or any alcohol,
smoke a few times a day (if u allowed),
no visitors, no mobile phones etc.
Have to get up at 6 am, run a few miles every day.
after breakfast will be a full day training.
free time between 7 pm and 9 pm only
10 pm to the bed strictly.

Its a bit different compare to Army here in Ireland.
Therefore 95% of them already have been trained for.

daithicarr

Fantom wrote: »

You can't leave the military unit for 2-3 years while you in Army.
can't have a pint or any alcohol,
smoke a few times a day (if u allowed),
no visitors, no mobile phones etc.

Are you saying they are not allowed away from their units at any time over 2-3 years?

Did Ukraine maintain a comparable system after independence ? As i understand it the military was quite run down by successive governments

Fantom

daithicarr wrote: »

Are you saying they are not allowed away from their units at any time over 2-3 years?

Did Ukraine maintain a comparable system after independence ? As i understand it the military was quite run down by successive governments

Yes not at all for 2-3 years. I have done it my self.
Some soldiers if they lucky may get a 1 week to visit theirs family
If you in Moscow region for example you will be sent to Far East. Witch is 9 hours flight
Almost same as US from here.

Regarding your other question I don't really want to raise here any political argument as some one's view or reaction may be a different.

People u are talking about are Nazi, not regular army and they have been very well trained a few month in advance in Poland & Baltic for take a control over in Ukraine.

Will send a few links as a private message.

The biggest territory of Ukraine will be Russian speaking.
Most of us have a mixed family's, sister, brothers, etc.
My wife is Ukrainian, my Mother's 2 sisters live in Ukraine
Ukrainian army doesn't want to fight against theirs people, this is why they recruit Nazi's

you may also Google a few articles or go to this site foreignpolicy.com

search for these 2 posts.

"Ukraine's Military: Undermanned, Underfunded, and in Trouble"


"Sorry, America, the New World Order Is Dead
Putin isn't dragging the world back to the 19th century. Obama just needs to stop pretending it's 1991"

Regards

comongethappy

Looks like anyone not complying with Putin is labeled a "NAZI".

Seemingly eastern Europe is teeming with them! Only Tsar Putin, fights alone, last bastion of liberty!
(Except none of that is true).

Fantom

comongethappy wrote: »

Looks like anyone not complying with Putin is labeled a "NAZI".

Seemingly eastern Europe is teeming with them! Only Tsar Putin, fights alone, last bastion of liberty!
(Except none of that is true).

If US say's so, most probably you are right Putin is Devil.

We do not need to consider that Putin the most popular all over Russia & South East of Ukraine.
We can also forget last vote in Crimea where 97% of people voted for joining Russia

We can forget that Moscow cooperate on Iran and Syria, and on broader issues of nuclear security and counterterrorism.
We can forget US still rely on Russian facilities to supply troops in Afghanistan

Sometimes we just need to pick the wrong allies, and end up empowering corrupt, unpopular, or incompetent leaders.

Well done America !!!

Its great strategy to go abroad in search of monsters to destroy !!!

Nobody is really good at doing that sort of thing.
As we have learned in Kosovo, Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Libya, Yemen, Somalia, Sudan, Vietnam and many other places,
well-intentioned efforts to guide and shape the internal politics of other countries.


Sometimes I feel sorry for some people who still live in "one polar world" dream where America is always right, and what ever who is not suitable for US will be an enemy
Guantanamo Bay is the right camp for them

I perfectly understand that while US financially support EU you have to pay them back, and support.

While Russia holdings $138 billion of U.S. Treasuries by foreign central banks
and China $1 trillion.

Part of the EU already start to understand this, regarding last EU vote.
In a few years time EU will be changed completely, as you can't really survive on base of Brussels quotes for long.
You can't keep going by opening Germans super markets and shot your own small business and help others to build theirs economy.
Ireland needs to think how to support own economy

EU is already divided for creditors and debtors. Its not going to happened for long.
Greece have to already pay this bills by selling theirs lands.

Unfortunately there are no free lunches in this live, you still have to pay you bills at some stage.

This is what US will be happy to see due theirs weak economy.
Confrontation EU-Russia-China and of course Russia- Ukraine is the priority.


I think she gave pretty clear answer who is ruling
Just google it

"Victoria Nuland Says F*CK The EU in Leaked Phone Call"

Regards

Lemming

Fantom wrote: »

We do not need to consider that Putin the most popular all over Russia & South East of Ukraine.
We can also forget last vote in Crimea where 97% of people voted for joining Russia

You can print this in stone because it's true no matter what country on earth you visit; ANY vote with a vote count that high has been fixed & is rife with corruption.

Fantom

Lemming wrote: »

You can print this in stone because it's true no matter what country on earth you visit; ANY vote with a vote count that high has been fixed & is rife with corruption.

Sure !
If big Dada say's yes that vote was fake, no doubt about. People are nothing.
But we have a few families friends there who is very happy to see this changes.
This is a fact.

The Hill Billy

OP - I have a Ukrainian mate who used to work for me. I was in touch recently to see how he & his family were doing (they only live a 45 minute drive from the Russian border).

He has just completed his 'refresher course'. I'll drop him a line & try to get the low-down on what training he has had to go through - from conscription through to recent times.

riffmongous

Fantom wrote: »

If US say's so, most probably you are right Putin is Devil.
Regards

Is it possible for anyone to defend Russia without referring to the US?

comongethappy

Fantom wrote: »

Sure !
If big Dada say's yes that vote was fake, no doubt about. People are nothing.
But we have a few families friends there who is very happy to see this changes.
This is a fact.

Your own government said the results were false.... (30% turnout, 50% in favour)

But that gets away from your point I suppose.... All Ukrainians are Nazis.

Terrific argument.

comongethappy

riffmongous wrote: »

Is it possible for anyone to defend Russia without referring to the US?

Whataboutery is the main weapon of the Putinista.

Symptom of the total control the Kremlin have on Russian media.

Fantom

The Hill Billy wrote: »

OP - I have a Ukrainian mate who used to work for me. I was in touch recently to see how he & his family were doing (they only live a 45 minute drive from the Russian border).

He has just completed his 'refresher course'. I'll drop him a line & try to get the low-down on what training he has had to go through - from conscription through to recent times.

War is not between Ukraine and Russia. He can be in trouble even far away from Russian border, like people in Odessa. Unless he support West.

The war is between South East and West of Ukraine.
South East is would be mainly Russian & Russian speaking
West would support a new Government while South East are not. They refuse last President election


More than 35 people were killed (they call them Rebels) the battle for the airport, as Ukrainian forces launched helicopter attacks.

Fantom

comongethappy wrote: »

Your own government said the results were false.... (30% turnout, 50% in favour)

But that gets away from your point I suppose.... All Ukrainians are Nazis.

Terrific argument.

What vote are you talking? Crimea?

As I mention I'm Russian, my wife is Ukrainian. We all have a mixed family's
Our Mam's, Dads sisters, brothers lives over there in a both Country's.
We are not enemies to each other as your media want to present it or you like to see it

Some people just been zombie by US-EU promises for a few good Credits.

Fantom

riffmongous wrote: »

Is it possible for anyone to defend Russia without referring to the US?

Presume its same as seeking for US protection.
Is it possible not to?

Lemming

Fantom wrote: »

Sure !
If big Dada say's yes that vote was fake, no doubt about. People are nothing.
But we have a few families friends there who is very happy to see this changes.
This is a fact.

If I said the sun would rise in the east & set in the west would you argue against it?

It is so statistically improbable as to be impossible to get any national legislative vote into that kind of result range without seriously cooking the books. Even allowing for accidental spoilage you can't get that sort of result. That is regardless of nationality or who you call president/prime minister/premier/dear leader/whatever.

As for your questions about the Crimean vote being false; yes Russian officials accidentally released statistics that showed the vote breakdown; with numbers that did not add up (indeed they over added ....*cough* ). When the wider world latched onto the statistcs, they were quickly removed.

Fantom

Lemming wrote: »

As for your questions about the Crimean vote being false; yes Russian officials accidentally released statistics that showed the vote breakdown; with numbers that did not add up (indeed they over added ....*cough* ). When the wider world latched onto the statistcs, they were quickly removed.

Maybe I have not see this fact. Would you mind to send me a link?

Sure if vote for Crimea was faked, than we should see at least few thousand protesters.
Can you see it on TV? Have you not see people celebrating in dependency?
And no protests at all

Why don't you stop Scottish Referendum? Catalonia too?
Why don't you call them separatists?
Why not consider to give North back to Ireland?

Crimea was always Russia till 1954 and people who lives there too
Pretty much same as North Ireland, except Crimea got back to Russia

Now people can make a choice of what Citizenship you'll be picking up.
No one asked people if they have to drop Ukrainian Citizenship or to leave Crimea.
They are all happy to live there.

Its your just simple answer to label some one as pro Russians (Putinst), Pro Americans, Pro British
Presume you happy to see this fight, but we are Ukrainians and Russians still friends and families except, those who looking for free launch from US-EU (credits)

I'm surprised how media can turn upside down every thing and make some one to believe in that without real facts

I have my own business for last 20 years and I analysed a long time ago, Limited information can destroy some one view on business too.
Especially get people to believe in things as wrong economy, Celtic Tiger, property boom, etc.
People just fallowing like blind this info and buying apartment abroad, property etc. and they suddenly start realise what I'm doing till notice it as fault.

Fantom

Lemming wrote: »

If I said the sun would rise in the east & set in the west would you argue against it?

What is your main blame to Russia? Crimea?

Would you consider North going back to Irish?
If I said historically North of Ireland was Ireland, would you argue against it?

Or its a bit different story? and its pretty much clear for you Northern Ireland, a part of the United Kingdom?

How would you label The Real Irish Republican Army?
Separatists? or Paramilitary organisation?

Would be interesting to get your view on it.

Lemming

Right. Well, sorry to burst your trying-to-be-clever bubble, but I'm Irish. I just happen to live in the UK.

Fantom

Lemming wrote: »

Right. Well, sorry to burst your trying-to-be-clever bubble, but I'm Irish. I just happen to live in the UK, so that's my "view on it". Sorry.

I knew you are. That was the reason I have asked u question
You did not answer me. Will repeat it

"How would you label The Real Irish Republican Army
Separatists? or Paramilitary organisation?"


Where were you at that time? When Ireland started army camping in County Meath?
person who's obviously knows what is human rights & and how to protect your Country independence.

Sorry for being straight forward to you.
Presume its much easy to be brave and sarcastic, while you hiding behind some one's back

The Hill Billy

Fantom wrote: »

War is not between Ukraine and Russia. He can be in trouble even far away from Russian border, like people in Odessa. Unless he support West.

The war is between South East and West of Ukraine.
South East is would be mainly Russian & Russian speaking
West would support a new Government while South East are not. They refuse last President election


More than 35 people were killed (they call them Rebels) the battle for the airport, as Ukrainian forces launched helicopter attacks.

I have no idea why you quoted me & posted this, but as a point of clarification - there is no war in Ukraine.

Manic Moran

Presume its much easy to be brave and sarcastic, while you hiding behind some one's back

[Mod]OK, Fantom. I realize that English is likely not your primary language, so I'm giving you a bit of slack, but I've been looking over your posts in general on the various threads, and I think you need to take a look at how aggressive you're coming across. Not everyone is a US puppet, I suggest you stop treating them as such. Insults like the above are unwarranted and not welcome here.

Please try to avoid expanding a topic beyond the purpose of a thread: This thread is about he level of military training the Ukrainian forces have, not whether or not the "Crimean Militia" (Or whatever) are terrorists or freedom fighters.[/Mod]

Fantom

Manic Moran wrote: »

[Mod]OK, Fantom. I realize that English is likely not your primary language, so I'm giving you a bit of slack[/Mod]

I remember in the 90-95s the Irish expat community in Moscow. I think it was over 2000 members.
I knew many Irish people that time, include those who set up bars such as Shamrock, Rosie O’Gradys, Sally O’Briens and Silvers, supermarkets and even D.I.Y. , Aer Rianta

As far I remember 95% of them did not speak any Russian at all.
Except Seamus Martin (Irish Time) He was the only one as far I remember good Russian speaking.

However every year the St Patrick parade was attended by thousands Russians and no one point any Irish person for this language issue's.
Moscow is no exception to this global rule there are many languages on this planet.

Sorry Manic Moran
I did not pay attention there are certain language rules applied on this forum.
My apologies for being not native English speaking & my grammar mistakes.
You can ban me for it.

Sorry if I insult any one. Was trying not to.


T.S. My biggest apologies to you, for changing the main subject of this tread.
"Putinist" now leaving this conversation)))

Manic Moran

Fandom, it's nothing to do with language rules. We are quite pleased to have foreigners contribute, it's always nice to have differing opinions. I just don't think you understand, culturally and linguistically how you're coming across. I'm not going to ban you for not being fluent in English, I'm just asking that you take a little extra effort before you hit "post" to make sure that the post does not come across as aggressive or off-topic.

Akimini

Hi. Here is a link from Ukraine news site about "training" of "national guard" (a la - "right sector"). I think you can use chrome to translate it.

telegraf.com.ua/ukraina/obshhestvo/1311012-semenchenko-raskritikoval-pravyiy-sektor.html

c-90

Fantom wrote: »

You have to remember this first of all

The late Soviet Armed Forces were manned by mandatory draft (with some exceptions) for all able-bodied males for 2 years (3 years in the Navy), based on a 1967 law. A bi-annual call-up in spring and fall was introduced then, replacing the annual draft in fall. The conscripts were normally sent to serve far away from their place of residence.

Men were subject to draft at the age of 18. The draft could be postponed due to continued education.

"Most universities had an obligatory Military Chair which were in charge of military training of all able-bodied male students to become reserve officers of a particular military specialty depending on the university"


You can't leave the military unit for 2-3 years while you in Army.
can't have a pint or any alcohol,
smoke a few times a day (if u allowed),
no visitors, no mobile phones etc.
Have to get up at 6 am, run a few miles every day.
after breakfast will be a full day training.
free time between 7 pm and 9 pm only
10 pm to the bed strictly.

Its a bit different compare to Army here in Ireland.
Therefore 95% of them already have been trained for.

Sounds a lot like my training. If they maintain this routine for 2-3 years your not going to have better soldiers your going to have soldiers with low moral and little regard for the military, especially if they were conscripted.

Fantom

c-90 wrote: »

Sounds a lot like my training. If they maintain this routine for 2-3 years your not going to have better soldiers your going to have soldiers with low moral and little regard for the military, especially if they were conscripted.

The main point of my answer was % of army trained male proportion, but not who is the best.
Can be same. I don't really into what is going on in Irish Army
I did not say we are all heroes while others are not.
Most probably all depends on the nature of human and endurance.
Some are good in real box, some are good in chat boxing

What I obviously know its Russian soldier duty.
They can be very wide, while you serve in army. It can be anything like:

control of the tank, armored troop-carrier, parachute jumps, military diving,
monitoring or manage rocket radar-tracking systems, and many more other things.


Regarding low morals:
Personally I did not get it while I was there to be honest Maybe there was no time to think of it. Definitely it helped me to mature and helps me in my life.
I think discipline is the most important if you serve in army. I can't really see how you going to get it, if you can go home while you in army.
Except of course officers as they into that game for the whole life.


Most probably some people, may take it again as propaganda or quote me as Soviet.
I don't really want to discuss this thread any more.
This will only develop more sarcasm.


If you really interested about it, get some more links like this.

youtube.com/watch?v=2CYVw4dne-0

youtube.com/watch?v=Sh-5AzN9afg

youtube.com/watch?v=XVi1iZvvERU

youtube.com/watch?v=b0DQ_7TJpmk


Regards

jimeryan22

Fantom wrote: »

The main point of my answer was % of army trained male proportion, but not who is the best.
Can be same. I don't really into what is going on in Irish Army
I did not say we are all heroes while others are not.
Most probably all depends on the nature of human and endurance.
Some are good in real box, some are good in chat boxing

What I obviously know its Russian soldier duty.
They can be very wide, while you serve in army. It can be anything like:

control of the tank, armored troop-carrier, parachute jumps, military diving,
monitoring or manage rocket radar-tracking systems, and many more other things.


Regarding low morals:
Personally I did not get it while I was there to be honest Maybe there was no time to think of it. Definitely it helped me to mature and helps me in my life.
I think discipline is the most important if you serve in army. I can't really see how you going to get it, if you can go home while you in army.
Except of course officers as they into that game for the whole life.


Most probably some people, may take it again as propaganda or quote me as Soviet.
I don't really want to discuss this thread any more.
This will only develop more sarcasm.


If you really interested about it, get some more links like this.

youtube.com/watch?v=2CYVw4dne-0

youtube.com/watch?v=Sh-5AzN9afg

youtube.com/watch?v=XVi1iZvvERU

youtube.com/watch?v=b0DQ_7TJpmk


Regards

Well said squadie

Xios

More info may be found here on reddit comments.
http://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/27gn3c/a_look_into_an_insurgent_training_camp_in_luhansk/

Fantom

Xios wrote: »

This video about exact same what I was trying to say.
Nothing to do with Russia.
He is saying they will never accept Nazi's in South East of Ukraine and theirs rules, even if they all die.

Xios