registering a car as new... issues and how to

andrew.dowling

ok guys have trawled the web and can find bits and pieces on this but nothing comprehensive.
In essence im looking to find out what i need to do to make a car from scratch and register it as a 2014 car?
What makes the car new? i'm using classic mini's as an example here as i have two and love the idea of a essentially new car.
1)Would a brand new shell with old sub-frames and old running gear engine etc. be enough?
2)New shell and sub-frames old engine and running gear?
3)New everything (shell, sub-frame, engine, breaks, suspension basically a full nut and bolt build)
what testing is it subject too?
i know it needs an IVA (individual vehicle approval) but then is it nct every year or what?

Any insight or thoughts would be appreciated.

corktina

Most people are trying to convince the world their classic car is old enough to attract cheap insurance and Tax! Never heard of someone volunteering to pay VRT on a classic mini before!

swarlb

From a purely logical point of view, I would have thought that a brand new car (or brand new anything) is just that, brand new. As in every single component. Essentially an Andrew Dowling Mk 1 Chassis number 1.
Apart from that, would it not be a kitcar, obviously based on something else, and now essentially new.
Maybe if you register yourself as a car manufacturer, get a name, and build a car from scratch, then present it to the relevant authority.

shineon23

I'd say existing car companies invest a considerable amount of money in R&D, testing and meeting safety standards and if you're building a new car would you not have to pass similar test/meet standards.

Emissions testing may be another once one is at that stage of having built a complete car.

I'm sure you're looking for more concrete information, but in my opinion a kit car approach as mentioned above may be most feasible?

corktina

There is no need for it to be regarded as a kit car. It is quite permissible to use a new body shell provided that it actually is new and is of the same type as original. The vehicle would take on the ID of the donor of the major components (ie subframes engine gearbox suspension etc)
If you were using all new components, it would be registered through the same system as a kitcar, but I can't see you doing that as it would attract VRT

hi5

The NSAI covers the IVA test in Ireland

http://www.nsai.ie/Our-Services/Certification/Automotive-Certification/Type-Approval/IVA---Individual-Vehicle-Approval.aspx

andrew.dowling

I'm running with the assumption that it needs to pass safety testing.
Essentially a nct can't remember the name.
This tests it for everything from decibel tests, emissions testing, breaks etc...
They can hardly do safety testing as it's not mass produced eg. Crash testing or side impact tests would render it useless.
Has anyone got anything conclusive or past experience?
Honestly spent hours googling it, worded any and every way possible and can't find a definitive answer.
American law seems to state that the chassis make it a new car and I'm fairly certain the UK have something similar. Eg. You can buy a vintage beetle and once the chassis are original you can change everything else including, but not limited to, shell, engine, breaks and major suspension components.
On a side note what qualifies as a minis chassis as that will probably lead to the explanation being slightly clearer.
However other times a heavily modified chassis is still qualified as the same car.
This example springs to mind.
***** it won't let me post URL or photos but google:: 1971 mini classic mini coupe extended 18"
And it will come up. If someone could post the link below I'd appreciate it******

There is very little standard about this car from the new engine, (turbo'd and new engine management system, now fule injected) the +18" lengthening of the chassis or possibly a new chassis (couldn't work out the reference to firefly chassis) and there seems to be nothing standard about the car save it was created from the base of an old car.
Regarding paying VRT that's a % of the cars value as far as I'm aware and to that end having built the car personally it will be up to the creator to value it, either at it's possible resale value or the cost of combined parts. Having carried out most of the labour personally that will greatly cut costs.
Also the answer to what parts need to be new would greatly effect costs as I recently picked up a rotten mini that drives and would be suited to a doner car because replacing the rotten parts will equate to the cost of buying a new shell in the long run.

Thanks for taking the time to read and reply and for putting up with my ramblings.

corktina

it will be up to Revenue and Customs to decide the value of it.

A Mini doesn't have a separate chassis like a Beetle and I very much doubt they will regard the sub-frames as all or part of a chassis.

I can't really see why you are set on getting it declared "new". It seems that a lot of work and cost lie down that road as opposed to just re-building the donor mini and using it's ID with a new shell.

hi5

Heres what revenue say...

1.2.3.1 Re-built Passenger Vehicles

Re-built passenger vehicles which are determined to be unregistered vehicles under
the terms of s130A of Finance Act, 1992, as amended, will require an Individual
Type-Approval from the National Standards Authority of Ireland (NSAI).
Where Revenue determines that the chassis has been obtained from a registered
vehicle and the rebuild does not amount to a conversion, as defined, registration is not
required. The owner should be directed to notify the Department of Transport,
Tourism and Sport in Shannon, of the changes in the registered particulars. Where
Revenue determines that a conversion has been effected, the owner should be directed
12
Revenue Operational Manual VRT Section 1
to make a declaration of conversion, supported by a certificate from a Suitably
Qualified Individual.
It is the owner’s responsibility to notify the Department of Transport, Tourism and
Sport in Shannon, of the scrapping of a vehicle, i.e. of the irrevocable destruction of
the chassis, monocoque, or assembly serving an equivalent purpose. There is no need
to notify Revenue because Revenue does not maintain records for more than five
years and because Revenue confines itself, for the most part, to making VRT-sensitive
amendments.


1.2.3.2 Kit Cars

Kit Car vehicles which are determined to be unregistered vehicles under the terms of
s130A of Finance Act 1992 as amended, will require an Individual Type-Approval
from the National Standards Authority of Ireland (NSAI).
A Kit Car, which is usually EU Category M1, is constructed from an amalgam of
parts some of which are supplied unassembled in kit form. In general, the kit will
include a variety of body panels and may include a new chassis that must be
assembled. The mechanics (e.g. engine, motors, etc.) and trim are usually obtained
from another vehicle to enable the process to be completed. In most cases the donor
vehicle will be a vehicle already registered in the State, but no allowance is
made/granted in this respect when VRT payable on the completed kit car is being
calculated.
In the case of Kit Trikes, usually EU category “L” (motorcycles), the practice has
been to consider the age of the major components for the purpose of deciding the age
reduction for the purpose of VRT. However it should be noted that trikes, as with kit
cars built using a new chassis, will be assigned a registration mark reflecting the year
of entry into use of the completed project.
It should also be noted that where a private individual acquires a newly-assembled kit
car abroad, the normal VAT rules should be applied, i.e. VAT is payable if the vehicle
is less than 6 months old or has traveled less than 6,000 km. Kit cars assembled in the
State are not liable for VAT where the sale/purchase invoice indicates that it has been
paid at the time of purchase of the kit.

Type 17

As has been mentioned above, it might not be desirable to have a car based on the old Mini registered as a 2014 vehicle, as the NCT criteria might then be based on 2014 regulations, which include having a cat-converter with very low emissions (much lower than early 90's cat-equipped cars, not to mention older non-cat cars), which might be difficult to achieve with an older-design engine. You might also need ABS, ESP, or airbags, as these things have become, or are soon to become, mandatory for new cars sold within the EU.

Of course the IVA may exempt a non-standard car from some of these regs, but you would need to do a lot of research to confirm this before finding out too late that you need to add complex systems to get it to pass inspection. Given the make-it-up-as-you-go ethos that Revenue and Dep't of Transport have about stuff like VRT values and Licensing for EB trailer towing, I would reckon that getting firm answers for unusual stuff like this would be difficult ("Would ye not just buy a new car?…").

Stuff like this is the main reason that old-but-still-popular models like the Brazilian VW T2 bus, the South African VW CitiGolf and the original Lada Riva eventually had to cease production - they just couldn't be redesigned any further to work with then-current regs for new cars.

Obviously, the solution is to use the reg of the donor car, if possible.

andrew.dowling

I appreciate all the responses.
Thanks especially hi5 for going to the trouble of quoting from the book as such.
type17
I wasn't really set on building the car if it was going to be more trouble than its worth (if testing is going to be excessive).
A simple idea to avoid the stringent emission testing is to update the exhaust system and Terraclean the engine. A slightly more interesting and, in the grand scheme of a total car build, relatively doable job is to install the more modern and certainly more reliable v-tec conversion (sub-frame, engine, modified exhaust, wiring looms etc..)
I know, i know someones going to mention insurance at this point but it is available.

With regards to abs that's not even an optional extra on certain modern car's so its not a necessity and airbags are not currently a requirement, however most mass produced cars will include them to reduce their crash testing damage therefore increasing there NCAP rating and (id like to think more importantly) keep drivers and passengers safer. As this would avoid these safety tests and so forth it may not get a high safety rating and that may effect insurance ratings.

Corktina its more an interest then anything else the relatively cheap materials and the cars exclusivity would have given a potential profit margin down the road (depending on what needs to be new and how its vrt is calculated ect...)
More then anything else it would have been something unique in a scene where just about any and every modification has been tried. from the pint sized "shorty" to the aforementioned 18" extension, then there's convertibles, any number of 200+ bhp engines you can front mount, twin Yamaha R1 rear wheel drive monsters, v8 rover lumps, hot rods, fully carbon fiber shells for autocross, show cars and every little custom touch imaginable it has been done.

more a train of thought then a project i will be jumping into any time soon but again the responses have been encouraging.

corktina

If it's a new car, it will have a new engine and not need terracleaning.

andrew.dowling

corktina wrote: »

If it's a new car, it will have a new engine and not need terracleaning.

So to register it as a new car it needs a new engine?
I don't think that's quite right I know when your registering a kit car the engine doesn't have to be new only the chassis.
So with the case in hand I assume that to be true also and based on that a second hand engine would be greatly cheaper.

corktina

I don't know.

In the UK they have a points system....so many for the various components and you must have more than so many to retain the original reg no or you get a Q reg (which no one wants). The engine and running gear would have to be pretty much all there from the donor to qualify with a new shell to keep the old ID

Who knows here? Maybe you would need all new components to qualify as a new car. I thought you said this is what you planned anyway

PaddyFagan

andrew.dowling wrote: »

With regards to abs that's not even an optional extra on certain modern car's so its not a necessity

http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/sectors/automotive/safety/index_en.htm

Seems to suggest that as of 2014, ESC & ABS are mandatory for new cars in the EU. (Some of the documents seem to suggest day time running lights as well.)

BUT I think there really is two distinct issues here -
* taxation - at what point your restoration/rebuild is treated as a new car and taxed based on that
* Car manufacturing - at what point are you deemed to be building new cars for the EU market

I'm not convinced these are the same and I don't think you'd ever (want to) cross into the second category.

Paddy

andrew.dowling

Again thanks for the replays. At this sage I'm in above my head and it looks like more trouble then it's worth. If anyone has had experience with a similar matter I'd love to hear the results but I think for the minute that dream is dead. If someone stumbles across a definitive answer by all means let me know.
Iv enjoyed discussing the topic and thanks to everyone's insight feel I have enough to write it off