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Apt timer - light always on

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  • 27-05-2014 9:23am
    #1
    CountingCrows
    Registered Users Posts: 1,830 ✭✭✭


    Hello,

    Had an APT timer (like this) fitted last night for the immersion heater. It seems to be working correctly however the indicator light is constantly on, even when switched to off. The instructions say the light indicates power to the appliance. By 'appliance' does that mean the actual timer or the immersion heater?


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    #2
    Doom
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,381 ✭✭✭Doom


    CountingCrows wrote: »
    Hello,

    Had an APT timer (like this) fitted last night for the immersion heater. It seems to be working correctly however the indicator light is constantly on, even when switched to off. The instructions say the light indicates power to the appliance. By appliance does that mean the actual timer or the immersion heater?

    Was it fitted by a "competent" person?


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    #3
    CountingCrows
    Registered Users Posts: 1,830 ✭✭✭CountingCrows


    Doom wrote: »
    Was it fitted by a "competent" person?

    Yes but don't think electrician is his primary trade. Doesn't seem right, the indicator light on even when it's off?


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    #4
    tomdempsey200
    Registered Users Posts: 1,890 ✭✭✭tomdempsey200


    the feed and switched live are mixed up


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    #5
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 17,092 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    Not a "competent" person so.
    :-(


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    #6
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    tpmcompany1 wrote: »
    Not a "competent" person so.
    :-(

    He might be competent at plumbing


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    #7
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 17,092 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    Every plumber should know how to do this. It's very basic & a plumber just doing call outs would be replacing 2 to 4 elements per month. Sometimes the timer will need to be replaced.

    We were thought to wire an immersion, timer, pull cord (32 years ago) at the very start of our training. "sink the black".

    Any plumber should know that a pull cord switch, cooker switch, immersion switch with the light on when it is in the off position is wired wrong.

    The person that wired this be they plumber, electrician or handyman is not competent person.


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    #8
    adrian92
    Registered Users Posts: 566 ✭✭✭adrian92


    I am inclined to concur with earlier comments - unless the timer is faulty (unlikely , in my view unless it was an old one, even then unlikely). It looks like , in the first instance, the wiring to the timer is incorrect . Suggest you get someone (else) to check how timer is wired


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    #9
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    tpmcompany1 wrote: »
    Every plumber should know how to do this. It's very basic & a plumber just doing call outs would be replacing 2 to 4 elements per month. Sometimes the timer will need to be replaced.

    We were thought to wire an immersion, timer, pull cord (32 years ago) at the very start of our training. "sink the black".

    Any plumber should know that a pull cord switch, cooker switch, immersion switch with the light on when it is in the off position is wired wrong.

    The person that wired this be they plumber, electrician or handyman is not competent person.
    The point is, what is a competent person? You think someone who can't wire a timer is incompetent? What if he is a competent carpenter? Can a competent person pipe a shower? According to you only a competent plumber can.

    Sink the black? I think a competent person would confirm, not just connect according to brain training. Or else take up snooker.


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    #10
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    adrian92 wrote: »
    I am inclined to concur with earlier comments - unless the timer is faulty (unlikely , in my view unless it was an old one, even then unlikely). It looks like , in the first instance, the wiring to the timer is incorrect . Suggest you get someone (else) to check how timer is wired

    Its highly likely the supply and switch wires are mixed up.

    It would then be likely that the timer is not in fact working correctly. The clock would probably stop when the timer switches off the immersion.


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    #11
    CountingCrows
    Registered Users Posts: 1,830 ✭✭✭CountingCrows


    Qualified electrician calling tomorrow to sort it out.


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    #12
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 17,092 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    I believe the new electric regulations using the term competent person, they are talking about the person being competent enough to wire a plug, switch, timer, pull cord, electric shower etc. Obviously some people are competent at other things but if they are not competent at the electric job in hand then it is illegal for them to be doing it. For example the guy that wired in the timer for the OP.

    President Obama seems very competent to me but I wouldn't be asking his advice on how to wire in a timer.

    This is what the new law is all about.
    It's not that complicated. If this still confuses you try phone the governing body (safety Ireland I think). They had a website but I can't find it now. I rang them almost a year ago now and they were able to explain in simple language who is aloud work on what.


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    #13
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    tpmcompany1 wrote: »
    .

    This is what the new law is all about.
    Eh no, the new law is about one single thing, exchequer revenue.
    It's not that complicated. If this still confuses you try phone the governing body (safety Ireland I think).
    Yea, a competent person can fit sockets, light switches etc, yet a fully qualified electrician can't swap an MCB. Safety my arse.

    I rang them almost a year ago now and they were able to explain in simple language who is aloud work on what.
    A qualified electrician is what I see as a competent person for electrical work. But like I said, they see it in terms of revenue.


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    #14
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    CountingCrows wrote: »
    Qualified electrician calling tomorrow to sort it out.

    Should be sorted no problem then. Simple fix most likely with swap of wires.


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    #15
    tomdempsey200
    Registered Users Posts: 1,890 ✭✭✭tomdempsey200


    Bruthal wrote: »
    The point is, what is a competent person? You think someone who can't wire a timer is incompetent? What if he is a competent carpenter? Can a competent person pipe a shower? According to you only a competent plumber can.

    Sink the black? I think a competent person would confirm, not just connect according to brain training. Or else take up snooker.

    "sink the black" is the problem

    people sometimes assume they know something

    a lot of new immersion heaters are sink= brown

    you have to check them


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    #16
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    tomdempsey200 wrote: »
    "sink the black" is the problem

    people sometimes assume they know something

    a lot of new immersion heaters are sink= brown and you have to check them

    Yes. A few immersions wrongly connected due to that I'd say.


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    #17
    tomdempsey200
    Registered Users Posts: 1,890 ✭✭✭tomdempsey200


    Bruthal wrote: »
    Yes. A few immersions wrongly connected due to that I'd say.

    it's only a little thing

    but there's a lot of little things to simple jobs like showers and immersions

    whether it be confirming the sink/bath on an immersion...

    a customer notice adjacent to an rcd...

    the purpose of an isolating switch...

    I'm sure tpm1 is beginning to realise by now that he doesn't know
    quite as much as he first assumed


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    #18
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 17,092 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    tomdempsey200 wrote: »
    "sink the black" is the problem

    people sometimes assume they know something

    a lot of new immersion heaters are sink= brown

    you have to check them

    But most are black / sink.

    Again a competent electrician, plumber etc will check their work before they leave the job. So sink the black shouldn't contribute to any immersion being wrongly wired if the tradesman checks their own work afterwards.

    I guess it's different for the lads who only ever worked on sites but all of my work is call out. I get paid for one call out. I don't get paid to go back a second time to rectify something I did yesterday. I don't like working for free so I learned a long, long time ago to check your work and then check it again.


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    #19
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    tomdempsey200 wrote: »
    it's only a little thing

    but there's a lot of little things to simple jobs like showers and immersions

    whether it be confirming the sink/bath on an immersion...

    a customer notice adjacent to an rcd...

    the purpose of an isolating switch...

    I'm sure tpm1 is beginning to realise by now that he doesn't know
    quite as much as he first assumed

    Was giving impression he fully installed showers. Now seems just does the plumbing.

    If immersion neutral is mixed up with sink or bath, the stat can be bypassed and both elements come on in series.


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    #20
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    tpmcompany1 wrote: »
    But most are black / sink.

    Again a competent electrician, plumber etc will check their work before they leave the job. So sink the black shouldn't contribute to any immersion being wrongly wired if the tradesman checks their own work afterwards.

    I guess it's different for the lads who only ever worked on sites but all of my work is call out. I get paid for one call out. I don't get paid to go back a second time to rectify something I did yesterday. I don't like working for free so I learned a long, long time ago to check your work and then check it again.
    That's where you and I differ. I never managed to become mistake free.


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    #21
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 17,092 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    Bruthal your statement that I claimed to fully install showers is untrue. If you go back over any of my comments on any thread you won't find me claiming that. I have never worked on a fusebox. Most of my work is replacing & repairing showers. For a full information I bring a reci electrician. I have said I've been trained by triton, Aqualisa & mira for repairs & installation. For the manufacturer the plumbing is the hard part. ( I'm not claiming that to be true) but they have more call backs because it's not plumbed properly. For example someone fitting a triton T80 without testing the water pressure. Or my last job today a triton t90xr connected to the mains. I drove back from balbriggan soaked from that one. I've seen lots of power showers with the hot & cold mixed up, the shower at the wrong end of the bath. The list goes on & on.

    The reason the manufacturer sees the electrictricans job as easy (or not a problem for them is they say it must meet local electrical laws. They are vague on cable size etc.

    Anyway I'm not going back and forward all night we need to find common ground (on another thread we agreed a fair wage for a fair days work, so to speak. We do agree on some things). I'm only replying now to say you were mistaken about my claiming to do full installs without an electrician.


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    #22
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    tpmcompany1 wrote: »
    Bruthal your statement that I claimed to fully install showers is untrue. If you go back over any of my comments on any thread you won't find me claiming that. I have never worked on a fusebox. Most of my work is replacing & repairing showers. For a full information I bring a reci electrician. I have said I've been trained by triton, Aqualisa & mira for repairs & installation. For the manufacturer the plumbing is the hard part. ( I'm not claiming that to be true) but they have more call backs because it's not plumbed properly. For example someone fitting a triton T80 without testing the water pressure. Or my last job today a triton t90xr connected to the mains. I drove back from balbriggan soaked from that one. I've seen lots of power showers with the hot & cold mixed up, the shower at the wrong end of the bath. The list goes on & on.

    The reason the manufacturer sees the electrictricans job as easy (or not a problem for them is they say it must meet local electrical laws. They are vague on cable size etc.

    Anyway I'm not going back and forward all night we need to find common ground (on another thread we agreed a fair wage for a fair days work, so to speak. We do agree on some things). I'm only replying now to say you were mistaken about my claiming to do full installs without an electrician.

    I used the phrase "impression". I didn't really say you claimed anything.

    You said last week you install, repair and replace up to 1000 showers a year. That gives a slight impression that you install them yourself.

    No big deal, it was just the impression I was getting.


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    #23
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 17,092 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    tomdempsey200 wrote: »
    must be mental busy

    that's about 5 every working day

    I said I'm wouldn't go back and forth all night & yet here I am again.
    Installing a shower doesn't necessarily mean working on a fusebox. Usually I install the shower and the electrictrican either works back from the pull cord or at times I'd run cable to the fuseboad & he'd wire it to the rcbo though this is rare.

    5 showers a day would not be mad busy. We average 1 full instruction per week. A replacement takes 45 minutes or less & a repair usually takes 20 minutes. I cover bray to balbriggan. I'll go further info wicklow or into dundalk but charge extra. I usually spend longer driving to a job than actually working there. As I say I check & recheck every job I do. 1 call out. It's nearly a 2 hour round trip from my house to bray. It'd kill me to have to make a free visit because I didn't check my work properly
    The longest day I had was 9 showers & some days I only have 2 or 3. I work 6 days every week & some Sunday's too when very busy. Also being self employed I don't take 4 weeks holidays, usually 2 weeks spread over the year. I don't work Christmas day or Stephens day. Outside of that if the work is there I'll take it

    Long story short iit's not mad busy. They are mostly call outs


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    #24
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,594 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Lets stop all of the personal stuff and stay on topic.
    Thanks.


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    #25
    CountingCrows
    Registered Users Posts: 1,830 ✭✭✭CountingCrows


    Electrician called and the new timer is also faulty! Apparently it was wired correctly. Timer #3 due on Tuesday.......


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    #26
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,594 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    CountingCrows wrote: »
    Electrician called and the new timer is also faulty! Apparently it was wired correctly. Timer #3 due on Tuesday.......

    I am not really a fan of APT timers. They never seem to last.

    IMHO you would be better off with a digital timer.
    These are more reliable and offer extra handy features such as a boost function.


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    #27
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 17,092 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    2011 wrote: »
    I am not really a fan of APT timers. They never seem to last.

    IMHO you would be better off with a digital timer.
    These are more reliable and offer extra handy features such as a boost function.
    I totally agree. I have a sangamo digital timer. The boost button means you'll never leave the immersion on overnight by mistake. A must if you have teenagers!
    God forbid, worse still if your thermostat is not working. Then you'd be listening to banging pipes, gurgling water & wondering why you have lukewarm water coming out of the cold tap!
    :-)


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    #28
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    All them mechanical timers are at bit crude really. The one on my gas heating failed early enough
    Made a count back type one from 1 to 7 hours selectable then, which was used for couple years. Lightwave-rf setup on it now which so far works very well.


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    #29
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    tpmcompany1 wrote: »
    I totally agree. I have a sangamo digital timer. The boost button means you'll never leave the immersion on overnight by mistake. A must if you have teenagers!
    God forbid, worse still if your thermostat is not working. Then you'd be listening to banging pipes, gurgling water & wondering why you have lukewarm water coming out of the cold tap!
    :-)
    If someone can sit in a house through a boiling cylinder only to wonder why cold tap dispensing is a little warm, then their senses are a little subdued:)


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    #30
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 17,092 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    Alas Bruthal there are plenty out there.
    My wife would tell you in her childhood days (1970s) they would wake up in the middle of the night with what sounded like the house was going to explode. They'd dash to the bathroom & kitchen & turn on all the taps to release the pressure. Obviously this didn't happen every night or anywhere near it but happened often enough that they all remember it (she has 6 brothers and sisters). Her older sister got blamed every time. What her dad didn't know was that, that wasn't normal. Didn't seem to know that there is a thermostat & it was broken. He was a director of a company so you would think he'd know better. I guess they were just different times.
    I still smile whenever any of her family bring this childhood memory up. :-)


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    #31
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    It's actually possible to connect immersion flex incorrectly at the switch and bypass the immersion stat. Ends up at 1.2kw with both elements in series. Never seen it happen though.


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