The all new and only slightly recycled off topic thread (read post 1)

Buer

P_1 wrote: »

The thing is where do you draw the line when it comes to what stimulants (or indeed what levels of them) should be banned. I mean just look at how even such mild things as Lucazade or Berocca are advertised

Absolutely. It's a very grey area and I expect more substances to be added to the banned list as time goes on. Many over the counter items can contain illegal substances. On the 1997 Lions tour, Eric Miller's father gave him some over the counter medicine he picked up in a pharmacy which Miller took. If he had been tested, he'd have failed and been open to a ban.

EPO, which is probably the most discussed drug of recent times, was legal until 1986. It's a near impossible battle as new drugs are continually developed.

The onus has to be on the athletes and their coaches to know what they're putting in their body and to be aware of what's on the banned list which I assume is ever evolving.

Swiwi.

Buer wrote: »

I've completely lost faith in top level athletics, particularly the sprinting. It's reached the point where I struggle to believe anyone in a 100m Olympic final could be drug free.

A Mexican chemist who provided drugs to top athletes did a candid and in depth interview with a German magazine a few years ago. He revealed just how prevalent drug taking was. He had money transfers that could be traced back to top athletes for supplying them with tailor made drug cocktails which were one step ahead of testing. He had worked with several disgraced sprinters and was adamant that all top sprinters were involved in drugs.

When asked about sprinting, he said that it was perhaps possible for these guys to go under 10 seconds maybe once or twice in a year if drug free but there's no way they were doing it every race without drugs. If you look back at someone like Bolt's progression, it's remarkable and very hard to take at face value. For example, in 2007, he ran 19.91 in the World Championships to take silver. A year later he smashed Michael Johnson's 200m long standing world record. In the 100m, he had not broken the 10 second barrier at the age of 21. At the age of 22 he broke the world record with 9.69 seconds at the Olympics.

James Dasolau of GB is in the papers at the moment for running a scorching 100m this weekend. He ran 9.91 which is his PB and faster than Bolt has gone this year. The bloke is almost 26. He scraped out of the heat in last year's Olympics before finishing second last in the next round and being eliminated in 10.18 seconds.

Perhaps these guys are clean but I would be stunned if they genuinely were.

It's crying out for a Michael Moore style documentary. But I can't stand Moore's style, so I'd go with the guy who directed "Senna", that was a fantastic documentary. The science behind doping and the methods used to detect it are interesting. I hope Bolt is clean, but you can never be sure. Anytime sometime sets a world record on the track from Turkey or the like, I am 100% dubious.

P.Walnuts

Buer wrote: »

Absolutely. It's a very grey area and I expect more substances to be added to the banned list as time goes on. Many over the counter items can contain illegal substances. On the 1997 Lions tour, Eric Miller's father gave him some over the counter medicine he picked up in a pharmacy which Miller took. If he had been tested, he'd have failed and been open to a ban.

EPO, which is probably the most discussed drug of recent times, was legal until 1986. It's a near impossible battle as new drugs are continually developed.

The onus has to be on the athletes and their coaches to know what they're putting in their body and to be aware of what's on the banned list which I assume is ever evolving.

Is creatine legal in all forms of Athletics?

I thought I heard somebody say it would fail you a Olympics drug test, but as far as I know it is legal.

Buer

P.Walnuts wrote: »

Is creatine legal in all forms of Athletics?

I thought I heard somebody say it would fail you a Olympics drug test, but as far as I know it is legal.

Don't think it's on the banned list in any sports, although I'm open to correction. It's a naturally occurring substance and is found in some foods so it would be extremely difficult for it to be banned.

Swiwi.

I think some of doping also comes down to the country concerned. Like, I know your swimmer (Michelle de Bruin?) was vilified, and it would definitely be the same back home. In some of those old Eastern bloc countries, it's all about the glory, and the population are fairly anaesthetised to systematic cheating.

P_1

Le vieux renard wrote: »

I think some of doping also comes down to the country concerned. Like, I know your swimmer (Michelle de Bruin?) was vilified, and it would definitely be the same back home. In some of those old Eastern bloc countries, it's all about the glory, and the population are fairly anaesthetised to systematic cheating.

Very true, it's tough where you draw the line though. For example at rugby and all the Maxmuscle stuff that seems to be in vogue today, what would the reaction to that have been say just 10 years ago

Buer

Le vieux renard wrote: »

It's crying out for a Michael Moore style documentary. But I can't stand Moore's style, so I'd go with the guy who directed "Senna", that was a fantastic documentary. The science behind doping and the methods used to detect it are interesting. I hope Bolt is clean, but you can never be sure. Anytime sometime sets a world record on the track from Turkey or the like, I am 100% dubious.

When Bolt came on the scene, I was delighted. Sprinting had become mundane and was crying out for a personality to bring it back to the top of the athletics tree. However, it wasn't long before there were whispers about his training and rapid improvement and the cracks began to appear, for me.

After reading interviews from those involved in the supply of the drugs as well as noting his coach Glenn Mills has had several of his athletes convicted of drugs offences (Yohann Blake among them), I stopped believing that he was clean. Knocking huge chunks of time off a PB in a relatively short space of time is pretty much impossible.

Most damning though is the fact that a member of Bolt's support team is Angel Hernandez, formerly Angel Heredia. He's the man who gave the interview with the German publication I referred to above. Here's a link to his interview: http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/a-571031.html

From a bloke who has worked with Bolt, the most stark comment in the interview is in the opening few lines:

SPIEGEL: Mr. Heredia, you will watch the 100-meter final in Beijing?

Heredia: Of course. But a clean Olympic champion we will not experience. Not even a clean party.

SPIEGEL: Of eight runners ...

Heredia: ... eight will be doped.

P.Walnuts

Buer wrote: »

Don't think it's on the banned list in any sports, although I'm open to correction. It's a naturally occurring substance and is found in some foods so it would be extremely difficult for it to be banned.

Ye I didn't think it was banned either.

On your other point though, couldn't it work like Testosterone, eg elevated levels would prove positive?

Swiwi.

Buer wrote: »

When Bolt came on the scene, I was delighted. Sprinting had become mundane and was crying out for a personality to bring it back to the top of the athletics tree. However, it wasn't long before there were whispers about his training and rapid improvement and the cracks began to appear, for me.

After reading interviews from those involved in the supply of the drugs as well as noting his coach Glenn Mills has had several of his athletes convicted of drugs offences (Yohann Blake among them), I stopped believing that he was clean. Knocking huge chunks of time off a PB in a relatively short space of time is pretty much impossible.

Most damning though is the fact that a member of Bolt's support team is Angel Hernandez, formerly Angel Heredia. He's the man who gave the interview with the German publication I referred to above. Here's a link to his interview: http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/a-571031.html

From a bloke who has worked with Bolt, the most stark comment in the interview is in the opening few lines:

SPIEGEL: Mr. Heredia, you will watch the 100-meter final in Beijing?

Heredia: Of course. But a clean Olympic champion we will not experience. Not even a clean party.

SPIEGEL: Of eight runners ...

Heredia: ... eight will be doped.

This is interesting too

http://www.labonline.com.au/articles/54801-Catching-the-drug-cheats

Buer

Le vieux renard wrote: »

I think some of doping also comes down to the country concerned. Like, I know your swimmer (Michelle de Bruin?) was vilified, and it would definitely be the same back home. In some of those old Eastern bloc countries, it's all about the glory, and the population are fairly anaesthetised to systematic cheating.

I think the worst example of it (or perhaps that should be best), is the athletes coming from China in the early 1990s. Sonia O'Sullivan went to the 1993 World Championships as clear favourite for the 3000m and 1500m but was beaten to both by Chinese athletes who had incredible years. They set world records later that year that still stand today, 20 years later!

Wang Junxia ran 8m 06sec for the 3000m. That's incredible for a woman. No other woman has ever broken 8m 21sec. Her 10000m WR is 22 seconds ahead of the next fastest time in history. Both were set at internal events in China.

Most of these athletes ran for a few years in the mid-nineties and retired, still young, never to be heard from again. There was a clear and obvious doping system at work yet these people still hold the records to this day and it's unlikely they'll be broken anytime soon as they're simply inhuman.

Buer

P.Walnuts wrote: »

Ye I didn't think it was banned either.

On your other point though, couldn't it work like Testosterone, eg elevated levels would prove positive?

Well, I suppose the issue is that it occurs in foods particularly foods that are nutritious which athletes would be consuming in large portions already. Steak, fish etc. all contain high levels. It would be very difficult for them to set an accepted level of creatine in the body when the athlete could claim they were loading on tuna (which has high levels).

Testosterone is naturally occurring but the body will only produce so much so is easier to identify when levels have been artificially altered.

.ak

mfceiling wrote: »

AK you've just went up another notch in my estimation. Great to hear some proper music. I was a lover of the house music and the harder house back in the day.

Just found dj Tim and dj misjah access on YouTube recently - brought back some great memories of nights gone by!!

I found myself in the Temple for a few hard house nights back in the day. Madness, complete madness.

Chabals Beard

Must say, the Cork fans are a credit to their county. Shared a drink with a couple of lads outside Jetland while waiting for the traffic to pass and they were a sound bunch. Not one ounce of bitterness from them.

mfceiling

.ak wrote: »

I found myself in the Temple for a few hard house nights back in the day. Madness, complete madness.

I don't know if you've kids but it's a pleasure letting them listen to your musical tastes.

I gave my little one a leftfield CD to bring into class - her teacher wanted them to bring in music to dance to. I got a decent "thanks" from the teacher at the gates one morning shortly after and then - "could i borrow that CD from you!!"

.ak

Heh.. 'CDs'... Showing your age!

duckysauce

.ak wrote: »

I found myself in the Temple for a few hard house nights back in the day. Madness, complete madness.

Temple of sound on Thursday nights was nuts , but UFO was nuttier :cool:. Jesus getting old .

RuggieBear

RuggieBear wrote: »

took the old bike out for a spin today...really love the runkeeper app for the phone...maps/avg speed/pace etc is pretty cool. Is this the best app for tracking runs/ride outs etc? Wondering if anyone has recomendations for similar or better android apps?

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.strava&hl=en

Buer

Just on the topic of drugs in sports, a very good article was published on drugs in football. Bizarrely, given it's by far the most popular sport in the world, the level of testing within the game is far less stringent than other sports. Joey Barton, of all people, highlighted the poor testing that exist in the sport. He has been a professional for 10 years and never, once in his career, has been required to give a blood sample.

Some fairly blatant examples of drugs in the article: http://www.4dfoot.com/2013/02/09/doping-in-football-fifty-years-of-evidence/

Buer

Buer wrote: »

Just on the topic of drugs in sports, a very good article was published on drugs in football. Bizarrely, given it's by far the most popular sport in the world, the level of testing within the game is far less stringent than other sports. Joey Barton, of all people, highlighted the poor testing that exist in the sport. He has been a professional for 10 years and never, once in his career, has been required to give a blood sample.

Some fairly blatant examples of drugs in the article: http://www.4dfoot.com/2013/02/09/doping-in-football-fifty-years-of-evidence/

great article.

A certain Spanish tennis star apparently linked to the final example there too...

ConFurioso

Fascinating read.

Zayden Small Tambourine wrote:

A certain Spanish tennis start apparently linked to the final example there too..

Is Fuentes linked with ? :eek:

ConFurioso

ConFurioso wrote: »

Fascinating read.

Is Fuentes linked with .... too? :eek:

Not naming names. Not going to get in trouble over it!

Plenty of Spanish tennis players about.

Buer

Plenty of accusatory articles on tennis also but nothing in terms of the evidence and obviousness that it involved in athletics and cycling. The circumstantial evidence out there on athletics is ridiculous. I can't understand how there isn't a huge amount more outcry when athletes smash their PB in events after years of the mundane. Even guys like Linford Christie, who has been found guilty of drug use on more than one occasion, are still considered heroes in their respective nations.

I'm not sure how much drug use there is in tennis but certainly a lot of claims made against a few top players.

fitz

Le vieux renard wrote: »

I play drums. If push ever came to shove, looks like the rugby forum could produce a band!

Funnily enough, when I'm not ranting on here, I play music too.
Here's a new track I just finished:

http://tonyfitz.com/cut-me-up-download

justsomebloke

Buer wrote: »

Plenty of accusatory articles on tennis also but nothing in terms of the evidence and obviousness that it involved in athletics and cycling. The circumstantial evidence out there on athletics is ridiculous. I can't understand how there isn't a huge amount more outcry when athletes smash their PB in events after years of the mundane. Even guys like Linford Christie, who has been found guilty of drug use on more than one occasion, are still considered heroes in their respective nations.

I'm not sure how much drug use there is in tennis but certainly a lot of claims made against a few top players.

Truthfully I just assume drugs are rampant in any sport where you don't get big scandal cases as people in any sport are willing to cheat so it's never a good omen when people aren't getting caught.

But I was really surprised by the number of athletes recently outed in athletics as it is a sport where people are routinely caught so I didn't think that many would be caught in one go.

Any sports where drugs can help massively and the policing isn't totalitarian and up to scratch should have drug cheats in it.

(logic should, not subjective should)

From a Game Theory perspective, any risks/chances that you can take that have a positive expectation should be taken. Taking drugs to improve your chances of being a top pro if the likelihood of getting caught is low and if the long term health prospects of said drugs are known and acceptable to the athlete is pretty much a no-brainer. People will always push boundaries.

----

Without opening a massive, massive can of worms.

Sports where explosive strength are important and can be built out-of-season and allow you to bring these facets to the game long term are bound to be even more susceptible to drug use than others.

Rugby is a sport where explosive strength can be a massive advantage.

If these two sentences aren't connected, I'd be surprised.

fitz

Friend of mine was explaining the doping situation in cycling to me, and was saying that the lab where guys were having their blood stored was also being visited by members of the Barcelona soccer team staff when the cycling people went in looking at samples.
I'd say soccer is rife with it tbh.

P.Walnuts

fitz wrote: »

Friend of mine was explaining the doping situation in cycling to me, and was saying that the lab where guys were having their blood stored was also being visited by members of the Barcelona soccer team staff when the cycling people went in looking at samples.
I'd say soccer is rife with it tbh.

I'd completely disagree there...

Rio Ferdinand got 8 months suspension for missing a piss test, not testing positive. That is a zero tolerance standpoint. Plus he was a top England centre half at the time, and the ban was handed out by the FA

Also doping wouldn't really benefit footballers all that much, yes they are very very fit, but never overly muscled. If you look at the very top teams there are players who don't seem in overly good shape at all, technique is king is football not strength. Stamina of course is important, but with the pre seasons most clubs go through I would be surprised if there was players that needed to dope to keep up.

P.Walnuts

P.Walnuts wrote: »

I'd completely disagree there...

Rio Ferdinand got 8 months suspension for missing a piss test, not testing positive. That is a zero tolerance standpoint. Plus he was a top England centre half at the time, and the ban was handed out by the FA

Also doping wouldn't really benefit footballers all that much, yes they are very very fit, but never overly muscled. If you look at the very top teams there are players who don't seem in overly good shape at all, technique is king is football not strength. Stamina of course is important, but with the pre seasons most clubs go through I would be surprised if there was players that needed to dope to keep up.

first highlighted

---

That's not a whole lot for someone at the very very top of the sport.

http://www.rfu.com/thegame/antidoping/education/casestudies

2 years for this guy playing First Division Rugby in England

http://www.rfu.com/thegame/antidoping/education/~/media/files/2009/antidoping/case%20study%20-%20james%20rothwell%20-%20failure%20to%20comply.ashx

---

second

that entire paragraph is contended excellently in the article posted yesterday. The range of drugs available to help recovery, increase oxygen intake into muscles, prevent concentration lapses etc are vast. These would all be of enormous benefits to soccer players.

P.Walnuts

Deleted User wrote: »

first highlighted

---

That's not a whole lot for someone at the very very top of the sport.

http://www.rfu.com/thegame/antidoping/education/casestudies

2 years for this guy playing First Division Rugby in England

http://www.rfu.com/thegame/antidoping/education/~/media/files/2009/antidoping/case%20study%20-%20james%20rothwell%20-%20failure%20to%20comply.ashx

---

second

that entire paragraph is contended excellently in the article posted yesterday. The range of drugs available to help recovery, increase oxygen intake into muscles, prevent concentration lapses etc are vast. These would all be of enormous benefits to soccer players.

Its a little bit different to be fair, sounds like that fella heard there was a drug test and scarpered, at least Ferdinand's excuse was a little less suspicious

Ferdinand tested negative the next day and offered a hair follicle test that would (apparently) show results for the previous months..

Doesn't change the fact that doping just wouldn't have the benefits to risk ratio that it would in other sports

P.Walnuts

P.Walnuts wrote: »

Its a little bit different to be fair, sounds like that fella heard there was a drug test and scarpered, at least Ferdinand's excuse was a little less suspicious

Ferdinand tested negative the next day and offered a hair follicle test that would (apparently) show results for the previous months..

Doesn't change the fact that doping just wouldn't have the benefits to risk ratio that it would in other sports

have you read the article posted yesterday? It pretty much completely disagrees with this.

The reward/risk ratio is massive! At the top end of any sport, a 1/2% increase in (almost) anything can be enough to move you from 50th to top 10. The payments are skewed massively towards those players at the top table.

With margins that thin any edge whatsoever can be ridiculously valuable!

P.Walnuts

Deleted User wrote: »

have you read the article posted yesterday? It pretty much completely disagrees with this.

The reward/risk ratio is massive! At the top end of any sport, a 1/2% increase in (almost) anything can be enough to move you from 50th to top 10. The payments are skewed massively towards those players at the top table.

With margins that thin any edge whatsoever can be ridiculously valuable!

Ok fair enough there is some drugs that would seem beneficial to soccer.

That doesn't mean they are being used though, looking back on the most successful teams/players in the past few years (Barca come to mind) I would find it impossible to believe that any of their success was down to doping...

justsomebloke

P.Walnuts wrote: »

Ok fair enough there is some drugs that would seem beneficial to soccer.

That doesn't mean they are being used though, looking back on the most successful teams/players in the past few years (Barca come to mind) I would find it impossible to believe that any of their success was down to doping...

Seriously? of all the teams you could choose to believe, you pick a Spanish team. Truthfully at the moment Spanish sport is one of the least trust worthy

fitz

P.Walnuts wrote: »

Ok fair enough there is some drugs that would seem beneficial to soccer.

That doesn't mean they are being used though, looking back on the most successful teams/players in the past few years (Barca come to mind) I would find it impossible to believe that any of their success was down to doping...

Now, I may be completely wrong here, my memory of the explaination is sketchy, but the doping isn't really about taking a regimen of drugs to improve performance throughout the year.

They take drugs to increase red blood cell count that aids oxegenation and recover, etc...
Then they get blood drawn and stored, for transfusion later in the year/season/tour/etc, giving their body a red blood cell rich boost.

Apparently, Spain is terrible at regulating this stuff, so I'd say it's the opposite. I'd be very surprised if Barca weren't at it. Was all their success down to it if they were? No, but I'm sure it'd be a big contributory factor...

P.Walnuts

I'm not sure i'm going to take the teams nationality as proof of their guilt...

I'm also not sure if i'm talking to people here that watch football, but Barcelona of the past few years have dominated teams by out passing them, pressing them out thinking them and of course having Lionel Messi and a great coach...

Now maybe their passing, pressing and Messi's ability to keep the ball on a shoestring were augmented by drugs, but I doubt it.

P.Walnuts

P.Walnuts wrote: »

I'm not sure i'm going to take the teams nationality as proof of their guilt...

I'm also not sure if i'm talking to people here that watch football, but Barcelona of the past few years have dominated teams by out passing them, pressing them out thinking them and of course having Lionel Messi and a great coach...

Now maybe their passing, pressing and Messi's ability to keep the ball on a shoestring were augmented by drugs, but I doubt it.

seriously, read this

http://www.4dfoot.com/2013/02/09/doping-in-football-fifty-years-of-evidence/

P.Walnuts

Deleted User wrote: »

seriously, read this

http://www.4dfoot.com/2013/02/09/doping-in-football-fifty-years-of-evidence/

That article certainly has gone for quantity over quality....so the author basically has an enormous amount really pointless quotes that have absolutely nothing to back them up, and only the odd scandal over the past 20 years to rely on?

I'm sorry i'll need more than that, it reads like the author started at his conclusion and worked backwards to fill in the evidence where he needed.

molloyjh

fitz wrote: »

Funnily enough, when I'm not ranting on here, I play music too.
Here's a new track I just finished:

http://tonyfitz.com/cut-me-up-download

Holy crap....real music! :P

That's not half bad fitz. Ken O'Neill is pretty good too.

Buer

Barcelona have had an incredible work rate on the field in recent years. They have chased and hassled every ball, showing amazing stamina. Spanish football has had major suspicions around it for a decade.

When Valencia won their La Liga titles in 2002 and 2004, they worked with Dr.Eufemiano Fuentes who has since been convicted of drugs offences and was the central figure in probably the biggest doping bust in cycling that took down, among others, Alberto Contador.

Last year, Barcelona had to stringently deny working alongside Dr. Luis Garcia del Moral who had been one of the main doctors involved with Lance Armstrong. They could prove he had never been on the Barcelona payroll but would not say if he had been employed on an ad hoc basis.

The article I posted yesterday highlights how prevalent is has been in top teams over the decades to give them the edge. That's what drugs do, give you an edge. They'll allow you to sprint for the ball and chase teams down after 75 minutes when other players are dead on their feet. It won't turn players into technical geniuses but it makes them physically more capable.

There are big gaps in the testing of footballers. As Joey Barton states in the article, he has never once been required to supply a blood test in his entire career. That seems absolutely ludicrous for the biggest and richest game on the planet.

irishbucsfan

Not to mention Guardiola's history with drugs

Buer

P.Walnuts wrote: »

That article certainly has gone for quantity over quality....so the author basically has an enormous amount really pointless quotes that have absolutely nothing to back them up, and only the odd scandal over the past 20 years to rely on?

I'm sorry i'll need more than that, it reads like the author started at his conclusion and worked backwards to fill in the evidence where he needed.

There is an element of that but there are also direct quotes from people who took drugs.

I assume you're looking for actual convictions against players as evidence. If so, you're not going to find a huge amount. You'll find a lot of circumstantial evidence though. For instance, the independent sampling officers spoke to the BBC previously about doping and said that clubs are tipped off as to their upcoming attendance and actively withdraw certain players from training until the sampling has been conducted.

They also said that, in England, random tests are conducted twice as many times as they take place on the continent. Even with that frequency, a player can go a decade without being tested post-match in England.

There aren't proven cases in football because they haven't put resources into testing and trying to see if the sport is clean. To put into context the lack of testing, in the 1999/00 season, there were 3,500 games in Britain that were eligible for testing. Testers attended 32 of those games and took samples from 2 players off each side.

I'm not sure how much testing has changed since but I'd wager it hasn't altered hugely.

Dear rugby season,

please start soon.

yours sincerely,

A starved fan.

justsomebloke

Deleted User wrote: »

Dear rugby season,

please start soon.

yours sincerely,

A starved fan.

As I had zero interest in the Lions tour I really can't wait for the rugby season to start. And with boy wonder being at the age where he is a little more robust we should get to bring him to a lot more games this season

P_1

Deleted User wrote: »

Dear rugby season,

please start soon.

yours sincerely,

A starved fan.

+10000000

Rugby league and canadian football are poor substitutes

LeeroyJones

Sky Sports 2 turning into Sky Sports Ashes is just an insult to injury too

awec

Aye I need something to watch!

pickarooney

Super xv playoffs are on soon. Catch up on some match highlights from the season and pick a team.

Swiwi.

Deleted User wrote: »

Dear rugby season,

please start soon.

yours sincerely,

A starved fan.

Dear Zayden Small Tambourine,

The season is just heating up.

Yours,
The (Super XV) rugby season

duckysauce

justsomebloke wrote: »

As I had zero interest in the Lions tour I really can't wait for the rugby season to start. And with boy wonder being at the age where he is a little more robust we should get to bring him to a lot more games this season

why did you have zero interest , gattyitis or something more serious ?

duckysauce

Le vieux renard wrote: »

Dear Zayden Small Tambourine,

The season is just heating up.

Yours,
The (Super XV) rugby season

Hope Cooper runs riot at the weekend , the crowd will have a shi t fit

Le vieux renard

Le vieux renard wrote: »

Dear Zayden Small Tambourine,

The season is just heating up.

Yours,
The (Super XV) rugby season

I can watch Tag rugby out the window!