BQ or Bust!

Murph_D

Mon 19 Aug - Thu 22 Aug

No running. Trying to rest the hamstring. Booked massage on the Weds and she offered dry needling instead. I am a little sceptical but I succumbed! A new experience - can’t say I enjoyed and limping around afterwards, but it seemed to release the tension and was feeling well rested by Friday.

Fri 23 Aug

5.1k @ 6:14

Gentle tester around College Park and Merrion Square. Frank Duffy is on, but not racing.

Sat 24 Aug

Frank Duffy 10 miles at MP (?) (79:05)

I was delighted to be able to tog out, as this is the only race left that I’ve managed to do every year since 2012. I enjoy the 10 mile distance, but this time I set out to complete it at marathon pace, whatever that is.

Recent LT suggests around 3:30. That sounded a bit conservative to me - especially as I’d felt so comfortable at around 4:44 pace in the recent 10k, so in my pigheadedness I decided that 4:50/k would be a good MP target for today at least. This felt fine for the first few kms but like everyone else, I started to feel the pace get much harder after the Wellington monument and up the North Road. Think I revived a bit on the way back down but the finish had me fairly gasping - a good bit harder than a MP run during a race should feel (although if I’d done it outside a race context I’d probably have felt happy enough). Still though, given the warm conditions (probably worth 12 sec/mile or two minutes over the race), and my relative lack of endurance at the moment, this was supposed to feel hard.

I didn’t have the new HR monitor with me - if the wrist monitor is anything to go by I ran the whole thing at 5k pace!

Bottom line - adjusting MP to 5:00/k (target 3:30) from here. Maybe it’ll come down after a few weeks, maybe not. Great to see everyone on Sat, even if they nearly all struggled. Some great results in the club, especially in the aul lad categories, where my own future looks bleak!

Sun 25 Aug

Rest. Hamstring a bit sensitive, but really feels like it’s on the mend.

WTD: 24 (15m)
MTD: 1119 (74)
YTD: 1,808 (1,124)

dtf

It was great to bump into you on Saturday. Pity we didn't have longer to chat, but I was a little too happy to see the first water station for the forecast to be good for the day.

Murph_D

dtf wrote: »

It was great to bump into you on Saturday. Pity we didn't have longer to chat, but I was a little too happy to see the first water station for the forecast to be good for the day.

Ah, good man D - had to think about this for a minute. Always happy to bump into old Cru buddies! Are you doing the half?

Murph_D

Hanson(ish) (truncated) Week 10

So with the distractions of the track out of the way, it's time to get ready for DCM. It's probably foolish to just jump into the second half of a marathon plan, but that's what I did last year and it had me in reasonable shape heading over to NYC. (Don't have the extra week this year, of course.) Anyway, we'll see how it goes. I've been averaging only 33 miles per week this year, which isn't high by any means, so hopefully I have enough endurance to not break over the next couple of months. Feel free to tell me what to do and where to go.

One thing I have to try to address is a relative lack of aerobic fitness due to the concentration over the last 6 months (and in fact 12 of the past 18 months) on 800m and 5k specific work. I've been given a few pointers on how to address this - more work at the aerobic threshold; avoidance of speedwork (not even strides!); long hill tempos when I can; long runs on empty. Hopefully I can fit some of this kind of session in, while still following at least the outline of the Hanson structure. This, however, is quite possibly the most stupid idea I've ever had, and I have a plan B if necessary. Or at least I think I have. Time, however, is short.

The upside is that the marathon target (3:30) is the slowest I've had in four years. I pulled it off on a difficult course last year (if you can say "pulled it off" for a race with an 8-min positive split), but the metaphorical hill to climb this year is a little higher. Hopefully it will work out. If it turns out to be too difficult, or too easy, as the training progresses, I'll adjust.

Mon 26 Aug

10k at 5:50 on the seafront.

A pleasant recovery run after dark, although it was a muggy night and I worked up a good sweat. Feeling OK after Saturday's efforts.

Tue 27 Aug

8.2k @ 5:26

Speed session scheduled. Happy to avoid as advised. I suppose this was an opportunity to get in some of the specific runs listed above but it was hot, time was short, I had to get back to the office etc etc so I opted for what felt like a pacy enough easy run by my standards. This isn't a problem, as I'm still in injury recovery mode, but one thing I will be trying to do over the next few weeks - again based on the LT test - is making some of my easy runs a little less easy - while still of course staying within the range. Just favouring the harder end of the range a bit more.

Let's do this.

WTD: 18k (11 mi)
MTD: 138 (86)
YTD: 1826 (1135)

skyblue46

Best of luck with it D. Hopefully there's no need for Plan B whatever that entails!

eyrie

Murph_D wrote: »

The upside is that the marathon target (3:30) is the slowest I've had in four years. I pulled it off on a difficult course last year (if you can say "pulled it off" for a race with an 8-min negative split), but the metaphorical hill to climb this year is a little higher.

Course you can
I hope it works well for you, and I'll be looking forward to a race report to match NYC

Murph_D

eyrie wrote: »

I'll be looking forward to a race report to match NYC

Ah here, that was a one-off!

And yes, oops, positive split, not negative. Edited!

eyrie

Murph_D wrote: »

Ah here, that was a one-off!

Unfortunately you've created a monster :P
No pressure though in reality, of course. I'm fascinated that you've been advised to avoid any speedwork at all, even strides. Not questioning it as I wouldn't have a notion, just interested that that's the way to balance what you've been doing and to build the aerobic side. I'll be interested to follow along!

dtf

Murph_D wrote: »

Ah, good man D - had to think about this for a minute. Always happy to bump into old Cru buddies! Are you doing the half?

No, I won't be doing the half. 10 miles is probably the max for me.
Will stick to the 5K for a while and see if the sub-20 is possible.

Murph_D

Tbh if you were struggling the other day I think the sub-20 is not there yet. (No point in sugar coating.) Have you considered targeting that time and going properly for it with some dedicated training? Happy to help!

dtf

Murph_D wrote: »

Tbh if you were struggling the other day I think the sub-20 is not there yet. (No point in sugar coating.) Have you considered targeting that time and going properly for it with some dedicated training? Happy to help!

Yeah, I got the 5k time down to 20:30 in last years Jingle Bells race, but the training hasn't been too good for the first half of this year. Am probably a good bit off the sub 20min right now.
Any tips or plans would be appreciated!

Murph_D

dtf wrote: »

Yeah, I got the 5k time down to 20:30 in last years Jingle Bells race, but the training hasn't been too good for the first half of this year. Am probably a good bit off the sub 20min right now.
Any tips or plans would be appreciated!

I had a good result this year with Matt Fitzgerald's 80/20 plan. It's difficult but if you choose the right paces and have good heart rate monitoring I think it delivers. Happy to lend you the book if you're interested.

Murph_D

Mon 26 Aug

10k recovery @ 5:50

Very warm evening on the seafront. Just a restorative recovery run. Bumped into one or two few clubmates along the way.

Tue 27 Aug

8.2k @ 5:28

Enjoyed this lunchtime tour of the IFSC and South City, including the last mile or so of the marathon route.

Wed 28 Aug

Rest.

Thu 29 Aug

17.2k inc 10k @ MP

Lunchtime session, warm and windy on the South seafront. The 5min/k pace felt tough from the start, and there seemed to be a headwind. I had a sneaking feeling from the last time I ran out here that the wind might well be more against me on the way home, and turned out to be right. The last 4k were very difficult, and I actually got a stitch with about 400m left that forced me to stop and try to massage it out. Humbling. Then to add to my woe I had a long cooldown jog home as I’d miscalculated the turnaround (dividing 10 by 2 is apparently harder than I thought). I know it was windy and humid but this was not an outing that inspired confidence.

Fri 30 Aug

Rest. The hamstring felt like it could use another day off.

Sat 31 Aug

16.7k inc. St. Anne’s parkrun

Overall this was an easy run but I upped the parkrun part to just under 24 min pace - which used to be MP but no more!

Total August mileage: 171k (107mi). Ouch - way too low.

Sun 1 Sep

16.1k @ 5:43

Enjoyable out and back as far as Castleknock, one of the staple 10-mile routes. Looped past Croker on each leg, atmosphere building nicely. Waved at lots of runners this morning, the mood seems positive all round.

WTD: 68 (42m)
MTD: 16 (10)
YTD: 1,876 (1,166)

Good to be back to something approaching a normal week. Last few runs are all about transitioning into marathon-specific work. Of course it’s way too short a block, and Frank Duffy has suggested that a 3:30 target is not as conservative as I originally thought it would be. Possibly a little overambitious, in fact. Will keep a close eye on the training and try to run more by HR than pace from hereon in (although I keep leaving my chest strap in the office). :rolleyes:

Up the Dubs!

Unthought Known

Murph_D wrote: »

Frank Duffy has suggested that a 3:30 target is not as conservative as I originally thought it would be. Possibly a little overambitious, in fact.

I think quite a few of us were caught out by the conditions at FD. You know more than anyone how your training is going, but maybe just write that one off as a bad day.

dtf

Murph_D wrote: »

I had a good result this year with Matt Fitzgerald's 80/20 plan. It's difficult but if you choose the right paces and have good heart rate monitoring I think it delivers. Happy to lend you the book if you're interested.

If you think it's worth it I'll order it online and give it a go.

Murph_D

dtf wrote: »

If you think it's worth it I'll order it online and give it a go.

This is the one. I found it tough but no doubt it contributed to one of my better races in recent times. Just be careful of which version of the schedule you choose - I found myself kind of between level 2 and 3 and switched a few of the sessions around.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/80-20-Running-Stronger-Training/dp/0451470885/ref=sr_1_1?qid=1567437126&refinements=p_27%3AMatt+Fitzgerald&s=books&sr=1-1

Murph_D

Unthought Known wrote: »

I think quite a few of us were caught out by the conditions at FD. You know more than anyone how your training is going, but maybe just write that one off as a bad day.

The thing is... I've trained and aimed for 3:20 for five marathons now, dating back to 2016. Times have ranged from 3:22-3:44. It's time to face facts - especially as I haven't trained properly for a marathon since the first of those six.

average_runner

Murph_D wrote: »

The thing is... I've trained and aimed for 3:20 for six marathons now, dating back to 2016. Times have ranged from 3:22-3:44. It's time to face facts - especially as I haven't trained properly for a marathon since the first of those six.

why not skip it and focus on next year marathon. Get a good cross country behind you and go from there?

Murph_D

average_runner wrote: »

why not skip it and focus on next year marathon. Get a good cross country behind you and go from there?

Not a bad idea but I enjoy the day out and I'm not going to waste the entry. The cross country suggestion is good - was thinking the same today actually.

Murph_D

More Hanson this week...

Mon 2 Sep

13.4k easy @ 5:32

Great to get out for this after a big day at work. It had gone well, so the run was one of pleasant relief rather than the pound-pavement-in-frustration kind. Headed out the last few miles of marathon route in reverse, to UCD. Took in a few of the trails there, and did a circuit of the famous track, still visible and decaying away under the parked cars. Beggars belief.

Tue 3 Sep

Strength: 6 x 1 mile (800)

Over to St. Annes for this session. As I’ve downwardly adjusted the marathon target, I expected this to feel a little easier than previous attempts - and it was, although I certainly still considered it a workout. Supposed to run these at 6s/km (10s/mi) faster than MP so 4:53 target/km (7:50/mi).

Splits:
7:48 7:47 7:47 7:46 7:56 7:48

Not sure about the fifth rep - maybe tree cover issue, certainly didn’t feel any different (few more 90 degree turns might account for some of the slack). Happy with this, although HR is a little high. Then again it was warm and windy. All told maybe not too out of whack.

WTD: 32 (20m)
MTD: 48 (30)
YTD: 1,908 (1,186)

Singer

Murph_D wrote: »

Strength: 6 x 1 mile (800)

800???

average_runner

Murph_D wrote: »

Not a bad idea but I enjoy the day out and I'm not going to waste the entry. The cross country suggestion is good - was thinking the same today actually.

When i said skip i meant by not racing it. You could still run it, but run it relax and take in the atmosphere?

Murph_D

Singer wrote: »

800???

Yes, loaded up saved workout from before. Was expecting the beep at 400 alright but went with it in the end, as I thought I remembered some conflicting advice in book. Seems it is wrong. No harm though, I think! It did feel a little indulgent. Oops!

Murph_D

average_runner wrote: »

When i said skip i meant by not racing it. You could still run it, but run it relax and take in the atmosphere?

Ah, I’d like it to feel something like a race. But I’ll keep an eye on things as the short training block progresses.

Murph_D

Thu 5 Sep

16.2 inc 11.2 (7m) @ M effort (165 bpm)

Hanson doesn’t really recommend running by heart rate, but recent experience and conversations with those who know better have convinced me to pay more attention. There’s no doubt that the HR sustained in recent ‘MP’ work is not sustainable. So I decided to do today’s 7 miles at or under the max HR specified by Emmet Dunleavy of perfectpacing.com as a result of recent LT test. I’d initially been sceptical of the resulting recommended paces but there’s only one way to find out if there’s anything to them, and ignoring them is not that one way.

In Copenhagen for a few days for a conference. The plane was 90 mins late so that meant I’d missed the opening event and could get out for the scheduled run. Happy days!

Around the lakes and levees of Peblinge Sø, Sortedams Sø and Sankt Jørgens Sø - a delightful series of former reservoirs with cinder running paths on the banks.

7m at 165 max was the order of the day, plus the usual pre/postambles. This meant even the recent 8:05 MP downgrade wasn’t achievable, but I’m learning something about myself. I hope. There was some wind, some stop starting for traffic lights (and figuring out where the bikes would be coming from), and a bumpy enough surface, so not all plain sailing although it’s a lovely place to run, don’t get me wrong.

Avg M effort - about 5:10 (8:20)

WTD: 48 (30m)
MTD: 64 (40)
YTD: 1,924 (1,196)

skyblue46

I'm interested to see how this goes for you. It's something I'm getting more and more interested in. I have been noticing recently that some people's bad races or sessions have them at unsustainable heart rates very early in the effort. I'd like to know how long I can hold an effort at a certain HR irrespective of pace.

skyblue46

I'm interested to see how this goes for you. It's something I'm getting more and more interested in. I have been noticing recently that some people's bad races or sessions have them at unsustainable heart rates very early in the effort. I'd like to know how long I can hold an effort at a certain HR irrespective of pace.

ariana`

Murph_D wrote: »

Hanson doesn’t really recommend running by heart rate, but recent experience and conversations with those who know better have convinced me to pay more attention. There’s no doubt that the HR sustained in recent ‘MP’ work is not sustainable. So I decided to do today’s 7 miles at or under the max HR specified by Emmet Dunleavy of perfectpacing.com as a result of recent LT test. I’d initially been sceptical of the resulting recommended paces but there’s only one way to find out if there’s anything to them, and ignoring them is not that one way.

Murph do you mind me asking how does the max HR specified to you for MP relate to your LTHR, maybe as a % of LTHR?

I've dithered a bit with training by HR this year but i plan to commit to it for a while again after my current cycle, it makes sense to me. I used it for a Threshold session last night in windy conditions and it took away the doubts i'd normally be having around perceived effort.

Murph_D

ariana` wrote: »

Murph do you mind me asking how does the max HR specified to you for MP relate to your LTHR, maybe as a % of LTHR?

I've dithered a bit with training by HR this year but i plan to commit to it for a while again after my current cycle, it makes sense to me. I used it for a Threshold session last night in windy conditions and it took away the doubts i'd normally be having around perceived effort.

I don't mind you asking me at all, although I'm not sure how universal the ratio between 'LT' (however defined) and MP actually is.

For the 'traditional' definition of LT - one hour race pace, usually measured (as I understand it) at 4 mmol/L (and all good testers will warn you of the limitation of this - I was given a number of 174 bpm.

Ideal MP (for me, taking my particular lactate profile into account) right now is the pace associated with 160-165 bpm.

I reckon my max is about 196, resting HR about 56, conservatively. So 165 amounts to 84% of Max (or 78% of HR reserve, if you use that measure).

Expressed (because you asked) as a percentage of LT as defined above it's about 95%.

Murph_D

Fri 6 Sep

15.4k early, touring some of the city. Got a bit lost a couple of times, so this ended up a mile or two longer than planned.

Sat 7 Sep

11.1k inc. Amager Faelled parkrun @ LT (22:23)

Tourist parkrun! The last time I was conferencing in Copenhagen I couldn’t do this one as it clashed, and A got to do it without me. Jogged down through the old city centre to the park, which is a very natural, unmanicured environment. A wild and huge park. There were a few fellow visitors, so the usual polite applause. It’s a small enough parkrun - 74 participants today. I was expecting more considering the large number of Danes you see running around the city. My LT-ish run was good enough for 16th place. Started out nice and steady, passing two guys in each of the two laps. Age category first finish! Another easy km over to the Metro to get home.

Sun 8 Sep

24.2k @ 5:40

Early LR through Copenhagen, taking in some tourist sites. The Little Mermaid is definitely a swizz, although I remembered it as being even smaller than it actually is. Got to do the Kastellet (star fort) in the clockwise direction at last. Also got to wave hello to some early risers in the ‘free state’ of Christiana, where the smell of weed seems to be permanent. Nice run. Ended it after two hours and hopped on a Lime electric scooter to cover the 3k back to hotel.

Big week by my standards - almost 60 miles

WTD: 95 (59m)
MTD: 111 (69)
YTD: 1,972 (1,225)

The hamstring is much improved but still a bit noticeable. Have already started slacking off on the stretches - must do better. May change the approach to the next 7 weeks based on some chats with the advisory board. Next: Homeward bound.