BQ or Bust!

Murph_D

FRR 5k Week 10 of 12

Only 3 weeks left. Two and a half, actually, as the goal race is on a Tuesday. Two races this week - 1500 at Graded Meet 2 in Tallaght, and the Terenure 5 at the weekend. At least the tune up race is in the plan!

Mon 7 May

Plan/actual - Rest day

Tue 8 May

Plan - 14k General aerobic + strides
Actual - 9k GA/recovery + strides

Took it easy as racing tomorrow. Strides to stay in touch. Lovely night for a run on the seafront.

Wed 2 May

Plan - GA 13k :
Actual - Graded Meet 2: 1500m

Over to Tallaght this time. A lot of waiting around (because I was very early) but I timed things better and made sure not to miss the call to the start line this time. :pac: Had done a few kms warming up, and some dynamics, strides, so felt quite good by the time we lined up. There were 8 or 9 runners in the race, I think. On the gun a clubmate shot into the lead. Very fast. I know I’m within a few seconds over this distance but I didn’t want to repeat the mistake from last time, and settled into fifth position by 100m, and stayed there for the rest of the race. Based on recent 800m and mile races, I reckoned 5:20 would be a very good result but there was no one to chase or push and so it was more like a time trial. Lap three is my weakness - drifted off the pace by a couple of seconds and didn’t get it back, despite a decent final lap, where I was closing on my clubmate, who finished fourth in the end.

Splits (approx):

1:04 (300m)
1:28
1:30
1:21

Happy enough given the isolated nature of the race. Lap three needs work. Finished strong and there was definitely more, so confident that things are going in the right direction. Guaranteed PB but I’ll take it as it indicates a mile time faster than my actual mile PB. Total with warmup and cooldown: 9.3km

Previous PB: n/a
Target: 5:20
Actual: 5:22.61
5th position (of 8?)
VDOT: 50.2
Age grade: 77.3
Verdict: still learning! More to come.

WTD: 18k (11m)
MTD: 98 (61)
YTD: 1,133 (704)

OOnegative

PB is a PB D, all the best in Terenure Sunday. Eyeballs out and go for it as i’m sure you will.

Duanington

Love that last lap, D - well done, as you say, more to come

Huzzah!

Best of luck on Sunday!

Singer

Nice finish there on Wednesday. Bottle it up for tomorrow!

Murph_D

FRR 5k Week 10 of 12 cont.

Thu 10 May

Plan - Recovery 11k
Actual - No running

Didn’t manage to get out today. Extra rest day won’t do any harm.

Fri 11 May

Plan - recovery 6k
Actual - 10k Gen aerobic

Meant to meet up with others but stuck in traffic so abandoned car and did a loop of Phoenix Park instead. Bumped into skyblue on the Upper Glen Rd and traded waves.

Sat 12 May

Plan: 5k tune-up race
Actual: 6k recovery

Tune up tomorrow instead, so recovery today.

Sun 6 May

Plan Endurance 14k
Actual - Terenure 5 (33:55)?

Not a good day. Poor prep really - a couple of drinks the night before (just a couple, mind), and a fitful night’s sleep. Sunny morning. Drove over with the missus, who was running too. Didn’t feel great warming up with some clubmates. But once the gun went it felt reasonably OK through the first two miles. Had lined up near enough to the front and wasn’t too worried about the congested start. Tried to avoid bobbing and weaving and just take it handy for the fast start down Templeogue Road. On Terenure Road West it had thinned out a bit and I slotted in behind three Tallaght lads for a bit. Recognised one of them, a (sur)namesake, from my 1500m race the other day. By the KCR I'd pulled ahead of him but the other two Tallaght gents had gone a good bit up the road. I thought I was beginning to feel the residual effects of that track race as the legs started to protest, but was still moving well enough down the back side of the course on Wainsfort Road and around onto Templeville, holding ground, passing a few runners here and there.

Approaching the turn back onto Templeogue Rd, just past the halfway point, I was starting to suffer with a few dry heaves and not feeling very good anymore. But there was some relief as the slope was downward again, and I managed to hold it together in first section of second lap, although a couple of clubmates passed and I was finding it difficult to respond. Back on Terenure Road and the guts were protesting again, with a stitch thrown into the mix too (first time in a long time during a race, just my luck). My Tallaght track friend passed again during this phase and I resolved to keep him honest at least. He wasn’t far ahead and I tracked him around the KCR turn and at last the left turn to the long 800m finish was in sight.

My goal of sub-33 was out the window by now but a PB was surely on, as a glance at average pace with a mile to go had suggested (turned out my arithmetic was a little optimistic - it was on, but not by as much as I’d thought). I was really feeling shyte by now, but I managed a bit of a spurt here and passed Tallaght again, dialing it up fairly impressively, I thought - for all of maybe 100m when I died again and had to step off the acccelarator :rolleyes: I’d been gaining on HelenAnne, just ahead, for a couple of miles now, and one of the clubmates was in my sights, but my goose was truly cooked and I wouldn’t catch them or anyone else of note. At last the finish line was in view and with maybe 100m to go I mustered up another sprint and passed a few in a crowd, but Tallaght was still silently on my shoulder and I think he managed to take me on the line.

Splits: 6:39 6:42 6:52 6:49 6:53

The watch said 33:55 which is 2 seconds slower than my PB, which I had considered ripe for some reduction, so all in all a poor result. Should have managed those extra 3 seconds at least. To compound my misery, my chip doesn’t seem to have been working, and I’m not in the results. Oh well. Well organised race as always by Sportsworld, and it seemed to go off impeccably (thanks for the shout, Adrian). One day I’ll learn how to run this course.

A couple of kms in Bushy Park to cool down. Total for the day: 13.5k

Previous PB: 33:53 (Raheny 5, Jan 2017)
Target: 32:59
Actual: 33:55 (unofficial)
180th of 1,315 (unofficial)
6th M55 (of 35) (unofficial)
VDOT: 48.3

Age Grade: 75.2
Verdict: Simply disappointing


WTD: 48k (30m)
MTD: 128 (79)
YTD: 1,162 (722)

OOnegative

Surprising result that if i’m honest D, maybe as FBOT stated a few to many races in the legs lately? Am sure you’ll take some lessons from the race all the same.

Murph_D

OOnegative wrote: »

Surprising result that if i’m honest D, maybe as FBOT stated a few to many races in the legs lately? Am sure you’ll take some lessons from the race all the same.

Yeah, you’re right - I didn’t have the stomach for it (literally) but I have to suspect that a lot of this is mental rather than physical at this stage. I don’t think a midweek 1500m should really impact on a Sunday race too much, although to be honest I just don’t know as this track stuff is all so new!

Safiri

Murph_D wrote: »

Yeah, you’re right - I didn’t have the stomach for it (literally) but I have to suspect that a lot of this is mental rather than physical at this stage. I don’t think a midweek 1500m should really impact on a Sunday race too much, although to be honest I just don’t know as this track stuff is all so new!

5k training prior to an 800/1500m goal race is usually done as a kind of transitional base training phase into more specific track training, you won't see many of those guys running a ton of longer races or races in general in that phase of training. 24 weeks of heavy racing and specific enough training is a long time to keep that going. How exactly are you structuring those 24 weeks?

Besides that. I think you are overcooking it slightly with the goals and training paces. At the start of this block of pfitzinger training, you were already running LT workouts sub around 6:55 pace, one in week 2 was 6:47 pace. I know from my own experience that I wouldn't be running that pace for LT until I was knocking on the door of a sub-40 10k. The race results also contradict these as those workouts worked out about the same pace as your 10k race and not much slower than your recent 5 mile. You would also be knocking on the door of a sub-1:30 half to be running those paces in training.

All your longer races of 4 Miles + are actually in line with each other and would be equivalent performances but are you taking these performances into account in training to set training paces at current fitness or still working at target pace and beyond?

Another issue with heavy racing is that it comes at a price of good ol aerobic training. You see it all the time with people who race really heavy or peak early where they haven't balanced their training right where the stimulus is low on the aerobic front, the aerobic threshold starts to shift and get slower and once that happens, you are screwed for a lack of a better word. This would also tie in with 24 weeks being a long time.

Murph_D

Cheers, S.

Yes, this 5k phase is supposed to be transitional and I would certainly agree that I am probably racing too much. I'm kind of anxious to get a few track races under the belt to try to get a feel for them, as well as setting some markers and getting some sense of where my strengths might lie in the various distances (I suspect 800 is the sweet spot, but I wouldn't really have known that for sure without trying a few 800s, a few 1500/mile, and possibly even a 400 or two). Perhaps I'm trying to do too much - but I am enjoying the process. The point about longer races (4m, 5m, 10k) during the 5k phase is also noted. I stated at the outset that the plan would be implemented very loosely because I want to race a bit more than I have been doing to date, and I realise that this means that the training is probably compromised.

Re the paces, it's an interesting point, especially as I've always considered myself to be pretty conservative (sensible?) re pace setting.

I've looked back at the LT sessions - don't see one at the pace you mention in week 2 of the plan. There's one in week 6, 20 mins LT @ 4:13/k, perhaps that's the one you mean?

It's a good question - how do we decide training paces?

I used to just base my LT pace on standard formulas that you'd get from the likes of Pfitzinger or MacMillan or Daniels based on race results. In 2016 I had a LT test from Emmett Dunleavey at perfectpacing.ie which more or less confirmed the pace I had been using at the time, which tested at 4:19/k (6:57/m) using HR data combined with pinprick test. At the time my 5k time was in and around 21 mins, and 10k time was 44+.

I do update my theoretical training paces after every significant (PB) race. As I am doing a Pfitzinger plan at the moment, I am computing paces based on what Pftiziger & Latter recommend in Faster Road Running. Based on current 5k PB time (19:47 last December, last time I raced the distance), Ptizinger suggests LT is 4:10-4:16/m (6:42-6:52). I take the point that my longer distances don’t match up particularly well to that 5k time (yet), but I’ve always assumed that the paces should be determined by the stronger results - but within reason (for instance, my 800m time would indicate far faster paces, but that’s the outlier).

I certainly found that LT pace hard to achieve earlier in the plan. I’d be more inclined to adjust downwards if it was a HM or M training block, but as the current block - deviations notwithstanding - is 5k specific, I’m assuming the Pfitzinger paces indicated by 5k PB are appropriate? (And of course, I struggled today to maintain that LT range in a 5m race).

To be honest, most of the time the training paces ‘feel’ right, and while the mid-plan race results haven’t been spectacular, I think they’re probably within the range you’d expect for races carried out mid-plan with little taper, etc.

I certainly welcome the input and am open to suggestions.

Safiri

Murph_D wrote: »

Cheers, S.

Yes, this 5k phase is supposed to be transitional and I would certainly agree that I am probably racing too much. I'm kind of anxious to get a few track races under the belt to try to get a feel for them, as well as setting some markers and getting some sense of where my strengths might lie in the various distances (I suspect 800 is the sweet spot, but I wouldn't really have known that for sure without trying a few 800s, a few 1500/mile, and possibly even a 400 or two). Perhaps I'm trying to do too much - but I am enjoying the process. The point about longer races (4m, 5m, 10k) during the 5k phase is also noted. I stated at the outset that the plan would be implemented very loosely because I want to race a bit more than I have been doing to date, and I realise that this means that the training is probably compromised.

Re the paces, it's an interesting point, especially as I've always considered myself to be pretty conservative (sensible?) re pace setting.

I've looked back at the LT sessions - don't see one at the pace you mention in week 2 of the plan. There's one in week 6, 20 mins LT @ 4:13/k, perhaps that's the one you mean?

It's a good question - how do we decide training paces?

I used to just base my LT pace on standard formulas that you'd get from the likes of Pfitzinger or MacMillan or Daniels based on race results. In 2016 I had a LT test from Emmett Dunleavey at perfectpacing.ie which more or less confirmed the pace I had been using at the time, which tested at 4:19/k (6:57/m) using HR data combined with pinprick test. At the time my 5k time was in and around 21 mins, and 10k time was 44+.

I do update my theoretical training paces after every significant (PB) race. As I am doing a Pfitzinger plan at the moment, I am computing paces based on what Pftiziger & Latter recommend in Faster Road Running. Based on current 5k PB time (19:47 last December, last time I raced the distance), Ptizinger suggests LT is 4:10-4:16/m (6:42-6:52). I take the point that my longer distances don’t match up particularly well to that 5k time (yet), but I’ve always assumed that the paces should be determined by the stronger results - but within reason (for instance, my 800m time would indicate far faster paces, but that’s the outlier).

I certainly found that LT pace hard to achieve earlier in the plan. I’d be more inclined to adjust downwards if it was a HM or M training block, but as the current block - deviations notwithstanding - is 5k specific, I’m assuming the Pfitzinger paces indicated by 5k PB are appropriate? (And of course, I struggled today to maintain that LT range in a 5m race).

To be honest, most of the time the training paces ‘feel’ right, and while the mid-plan race results haven’t been spectacular, I think they’re probably within the range you’d expect for races carried out mid-plan with little taper, etc.

I certainly welcome the input and am open to suggestions.

I know Cru have a good group of Mid-d guys(thinking KU and the likes and faster) so I presume there is a fairly knowledgeable coaching system in place there for mid-distance guys. Wondering if you would benefit from approaching some of those guys and coaches to see what they are doing? The variation in training phases in the 800m is probably a lot more complicated than the marathon etc. and is maybe not something you can get a lot from piecing bits of plans from a book together on. It's not something I know a lot on either to be really offering advice on. From what I've seen in your training, I'd agree that the 800m is definitely your sweetspot and is probably something you could still improve massively with the right training and coach. You'd probably learn an awful lot as well from the experience of it.

Murph_D

Safiri wrote: »

I know Cru have a good group of Mid-d guys(thinking KU and the likes and faster) so I presume there is a fairly knowledgeable coaching system in place there for mid-distance guys. Wondering if you would benefit from approaching some of those guys and coaches to see what they are doing? The variation in training phases in the 800m is probably a lot more complicated than the marathon etc. and is maybe not something you can get a lot from piecing bits of plans from a book together on. It's not something I know a lot on either to be really offering advice on. From what I've seen in your training, I'd agree that the 800m is definitely your sweetspot and is probably something you could still improve massively with the right training and coach. You'd probably learn an awful lot as well from the experience of it.

Yes, I’ve made my intentions known to the coaches and joined one of the track groups.

Murph_D

FRR 5k Week 11/12 of 12

With 9 days to the race, I’ll be scything out most of the penultimate week. So It’s all been a bit of a mess, unfortunately, with so many adjustments to accommodate so many races. But tremendous fun! Will be fascinating to see if the plan still works.

Mon 14 May

Plan - rest
Actual - 11.2k endurance

The tune-up race was to be followed with 14k endurance. As the race was 3k longer than specified I figured I could cut the tired-legs session a little short. Enjoyed this Phoenix Park run, hugging the perimeter to extract maximum distance from a single circuit.

Tue 15 May

Plan/actual - rest

I’m now on yesterday’s planned rest day. Confusing? This kicks off the final week of the schedule.

Wed 16 May

Plan/actual - 8k Recovery

What it says. Enjoyable sunshiny loop from MU to canal and Carton House, a familiar circuit, but changing the direction and therefore uncovering a load of Maynooth 10k strava segments. No CRs. :pac:

Thu 17 May

Plan/actual - 11k inc 4x100 strides and 800m race pace

Joined FBOT for lunchtime run to the Bull Wall and back. 800 was wind assisted but at 3:51/k the effort was about right. Enjoyed this. M likes to skimp on recovery period so strides were a challenge. All good.

WTD: 30k (19m)
MTD: 158 (98)
YTD: 1,192 (741)

Murph_D

FRR 5k Week 12 of 12 cont.

After a query re last Sunday's missing result, myrunresults confirmed a chip time of 33:53 for Terenure, which equals my PB from Raheny 2017. Still disappointed with the performance, but a small consolation, and at least it keeps a decent streak of PB results alive.

Fri 18 May

Plan - Gen aerobic 10k
Actual - Recovery 10k

Late night on Thurs. Was tired and downgraded this run to recovery pace.

Sat 19 May

Plan/actual - 8k recovery

Pleasant jog around St. Anne’s parkrun with Bungy Girl, followed by a few extra kms and the obligatory coffee and chats.

Sun 20 May

Plan/actual - rest.

WTD: 49k (30m)
MTD: 177 (110)
YTD: 1,211 (753)

Bungy Girl

Best of luck for Tuesday !!

FBOT01

Murph_D wrote: »

Thu 17 May

Plan/actual - 11k inc 4x100 strides and 800m race pace

Joined FBOT for lunchtime run to the Bull Wall and back. 800 was wind assisted but at 3:51/k the effort was about right. Enjoyed this. M likes to skimp on recovery period so strides were a challenge. All good.

WTD: 30k (19m)
MTD: 158 (98)
YTD: 1,192 (741)

Track fairies who'd be up to them :rolleyes:

I'll bring the tea and sambos next day:P

Murph_D

FRR 5k Week 12 of 12 cont.

Showtime. Can we go 2 for 2 with the Faster Road Running method?

Mon 21 May

Plan/actual - 8k recovery with strides.

Carton House loop, doing the strides on the canal. Muggy afternoon. Typical taper run - i.e. felt impossibly sluggish.

Tue 22 May

Plan/actual - Race: Bob Heffernan 5k (20:09)

I feel pretty deflated after this. The drill has usually been: do the training, feel crap in the final week, then somehow pull out a decent result on the day. With the exception of the marathon-that-must-not-be-named, this has pretty much always been the case. Tonight was different. A fast and confident start, a grinding of gears in the middle, and a painful finish. The only slight consolation is being able to pull out a sub-4min final km despite the discomfort and the disillusionment of the mid-section of the race. I started well, went backwards in kms 3 and 4, helpless when people streamed past. I might have dug in more, but I let it get to me. Beyond that, I won’t bore you with the details.

Splits: 3:51 3:56 4:11 4:13 3:58

Previous PB: 19:47 (St. Anne’s, Dec 2017)
Target: 19:39
Actual: 20:09
208th (of 519)
6th M55 (of 21)
VDOT: 49.4
Age grade: 77.3
Verdict: I was s h i t e

laura_ac3

I'd feel ****e if I was trying for a PB for just shy of 2,000 years as well

In all seriousness don't rush past the "boring details" too much, if nothing else use it as a mental motivation to endure the hurt of the next race. Always a chance for redemption around the next race corner.

Murph_D

laura_ac3 wrote: »

I'd feel ****e if I was trying for a PB for just shy of 2,000 years as well

In all seriousness don't rush past the "boring details" too much, if nothing else use it as a mental motivation to endure the hurt of the next race. Always a chance for redemption around the next race corner.

Haha, that almost cheered me up! It was a good year, 207. Edited.

OOnegative

I honestly thought you didn’t race, was looking through the results last night and once I didn’t see you at 19.30mins or so I stopped looking and figured you didn’t make it. Having raced with you i’m surprised to see you threw the towel in a small bit in the middle kms. Not a criticism just an observation, your normally a great man at digging in. Not a result your training indicated, chin up and plough on D.

Murph_D

OOnegative wrote: »

I honestly thought you didn’t race, was looking through the results last night and once I didn’t see you at 19.30mins or so I stopped looking and figured you didn’t make it. Having raced with you i’m surprised to see you threw the towel in a small bit in the middle kms. Not a criticism just an observation, your normally a great man at digging in. Not a result your training indicated, chin up and plough on D.

I'm afraid the evidence doesn't really back this up, B, but thanks anyway!

OOnegative

Murph_D wrote: »

I'm afraid the evidence doesn't really back this up, B, but thanks anyway!

Your recent 1,500m you dug in on the last lap and ran a 1.21 or so. The Terenure 5m you dug in and held your Tallaght for off. Just two recent examples off top of my head. Lip service I know which won’t change how you feel about yesterday evenings result.

AuldManKing

Murph_D wrote: »

Verdict: I was s h i t e

yep - you were. No where near your potential.

So - what do you do about it?

Murph_D

OOnegative wrote: »

Your recent 1,500m you dug in on the last lap and ran a 1.21 or so. The Terenure 5m you dug in and held your Tallaght for off. Just two recent examples off top of my head. Lip service I know which won’t change how you feel about yesterday evenings result.

Fair enough - I think this ability to finish reasonably well though is directly connected to a poor middle third: a tendency to go missing when things start to get tough and there's still a long way to go.

Wubble Wubble

Here's the thing. From my own experience, being in 5ks with huge numbers of similar standard runners (see also Docklands, Jingle Bells etc) can work both ways. You can either get swept along to that much sought after PB, or get swiftly washed away in the tide and get disheartened as a result. It's been the latter for me more often than not, and I've rarely been in a 5k with over 200 sub-20s. The shorter distance means less time to repair the damage if you're not fully mentally tuned in throughout, or if some physical niggle starts to come into play.

10ks, HMs etc, you can get away with a lot more sins compared to the less forgiving 5ks. You know yourself there's a PB coming soon. Keep up the good work.

TL/DR: It happens. Better days ahead.

Murph_D

AuldManKing wrote: »

yep - you were. No where near your potential.

So - what do you do about it?

Nothing right away! The next 12 weeks is all about 800m training.

Longer term, I suspect the solution is somewhere in the more-tempo-runs realm. I don't think (yet) that it's got anything to do with over-training or under-recovery, even taking age-related extra recovery care into account. But I could be wrong on all counts.

My HR was maxed out last night by the third km, so the effort was there and I had to step off, that's possibly something. Plus the usual gagging, which again appears to be related to maxing out. If I can learn to avoid that, or do it without having to slow, I'll be getting somewhere.

AuldManKing

Murph_D wrote: »

Nothing right away! The next 12 weeks is all about 800m training.

Longer term, I suspect the solution is somewhere in the more-tempo-runs realm. I don't think (yet) that it's got anything to do with over-training or under-recovery, even taking age-related extra recovery care into account. But I could be wrong on all counts.

My HR was maxed out last night by the third km, so the effort was there and I had to step off, that's possibly something. Plus the usual gagging, which again appears to be related to maxing out. If I can learn to avoid that, or do it without having to slow, I'll be getting somewhere.

The tempo thing could be the thing - from memory FRR is light on Tempos (open to correction).
I'd love to know if there's any studies been done regarding 'more mature' runners like us.
Do we need more tempo type efforts as we get older or do shorter intervals help more - or is it all just the same no matter what age.

I felt I had a good year last year and that was down to following JD - who is high on Tempos.

Your PB was at St Annes - I think thats a difficult course to PB on - something about the long avenue .

What kinda stuff were you doing around then?

Murph_D

AuldManKing wrote: »

The tempo thing could be the thing - from memory FRR is light on Tempos (open to correction).
I'd love to know if there's any studies been done regarding 'more mature' runners like us.
Do we need more tempo type efforts as we get older or do shorter intervals help more - or is it all just the same no matter what age.

I felt I had a good year last year and that was down to following JD - who is high on Tempos.

Your PB was at St Annes - I think thats a difficult course to PB on - something about the long avenue .

What kinda stuff were you doing around then?

Well I made a lot of changes to the FRR schedule to fit in races, so I won't blame the plan. I don't think the FRR version I was using (5k/55m) is particularly light on tempos (at LT as specified in the plan). There was one 6 weeks out - 20 mins @ 21m pace essentially - that I completed without any real trouble. After that, there are plenty of VO2 sessions and the tempos get replaced by even more specific tune-up 5k races, which I was kind of randomly replacing with shorter (road relays, track meets) and longer (Terenure) races, so hence my suspicion that I may have been undercooking on the tempo and tempo-like sessions because I was replacing the races with a different kinds of races (I had a suspicion this would bite me in the ass but didn't want to really contemplate this too much as the whole exercise was really just some base building anyway for the 800 stuff).

PB was about 6 weeks post-marathon, so still getting the benefit of those gruelling Hanson long MP runs. I disagree re St. Anne's - the long avenue doesn't bother me as I've gotten very used to it and I know that time can be made up here with the long slightly downhill and often downwind nature of it. And of course you do it twice. And I had a dedicated 'flying wedge' pacer team. :pac:

I'm not going to worry too much about Tuesday. I'm putting it down to starting a little too fast, hence the inevitable wallop happening a little sooner (2k in) than it might otherwise have. I recovered somewhat towards the end (no doubt helped by the downhill finish) but too late - to paraphrase something Ray suggested elsewhere, if can get to two miles you can hang on, but if you blow up before that you're f@*ked! :pac:

I'll learn from it. I don't race many 5ks. I pace plenty of them at parkrun and always try to lay down an even pace for my pacees, letting them save something for the last third. Should practice what I preach!

Duanington

and yet your last k was only 2 seconds slower than your 2nd k......shows you had the strength there to drag yourself back up to that kind of pace.

Like you, I rarely race 5ks ( coz I hate them), I think I've raced more marathons actually which is a bit odd but there certainly is a fine line between going out brave and going out too fast.

I don't think you were too far wide of the mark on Tuesday looking at your splits.

Murph_D

Thanks D. It's certainly an awful lot easier when you have a pacer (or pacers) to do the thinking for you and you can just switch off and focus on doing the work.