Heysel disaster

Leftist

mike65 wrote: »

They'll be the cheerleaders.

interesting.

are they wrong to blame the liverpool support? given that it's really just the ultras.

RasTa

mike65 wrote: »

They'll be the cheerleaders.

How dare they be pissed at people they know being murdered, jesus....

ronjo

This really isnt helping, is it?

mike65

RasTa wrote: »

How dare they be pissed at people they know being murdered, jesus....

Well done you. I come in peace and you take offence on behalf of the stricken, wind your neck in.

golfball37

Bruce Grobelaar said in later life it was BNP types from Chelsea and Millwall who went over to Brussels and started all the trouble that week.

He met one of them a few years later who told Bruce thinking Bruce might be a kindred spirit being a white African. I have no reason to disbelieve him.

greendom

golfball37 wrote: »

Bruce Grobelaar said in later life it was BNP types from Chelsea and Millwall who went over to Brussels and started all the trouble that week.

He met one of them a few years later who told Bruce thinking Bruce might be a kindred spirit being a white African. I have no reason to disbelieve him.

Was this verified in the courts - we're any of the accused not from Liverpool or not Liverpool supporters ?

anncoates

golfball37 wrote: »

Bruce Grobelaar said in later life it was BNP types from Chelsea and Millwall who went over to Brussels and started all the trouble that week.

He met one of them a few years later who told Bruce thinking Bruce might be a kindred spirit being a white African. I have no reason to disbelieve him.

I guess those type of people from different clubs mob up with England but it's a bit weird to imagine Chelsea and Millwall going on a club away fixture with a northern club like Liverpool, in the 80s, of all times.

Johner

golfball37 wrote: »

Bruce Grobelaar said in later life it was BNP types from Chelsea and Millwall who went over to Brussels and started all the trouble that week.

He met one of them a few years later who told Bruce thinking Bruce might be a kindred spirit being a white African. I have no reason to disbelieve him.

greendom wrote: »

Was this verified in the courts - we're any of the accused not from Liverpool or not Liverpool supporters ?

John Smith the Liverpool chairman at the time tried to put the blame on Chelsea fans.

tayto lover

mike65 wrote: »

Well done you. I come in peace and you take offence on behalf of the stricken, wind your neck in.

People need to lay the blame where it deserves to be lain.
The stadium might not have been well stewarded but the stewards did not start the trouble.

SEPT 23 1989

Liverpool fans got a terrible hiding in Rome the previous year,there was always going to be trouble in Belgium

Leftist

I thought the 'it was chelsea' defence was just a joke in this day and age.

there is no way that the support who pushed that wall that day were all chelsea supporters. It's almost laughable if it wasn't so tragic.

smileyj1987

What happened at heysel and hillsborough never should have happened . They are both a black mark on the sport and always will be .

What the Liverpool fans did that day was horrendous but I can see why it happened too . The Italians are some of the worst behaved fans in the world . Liverpool fans where stabbed in Rome the year before . So I can see why they had taken a dislike to Italian fans .

Even nowadays Italian fans are still at it . Didn't Manchester United give fans a brochure to tell them to stay out of certain areas in 2009 for the final . The Liverpool fans attacked in Naples . Manchester United fans attacked in 2007 during a game by Roma fans .

The thing I find shocking is the fact Italian fans still get away with this to this day . They really need to be told get your house in order ASAP .

Uefa should also take a portion of the blame the stadium at heysel was falling apart and that meant people had ammunition ready to start trouble . The game should never have taken place at that stadium .

Anyway enough of the moaning about certain fans or playing the blame game . I will say it again it shouldn't have ever happened . I do think it's time that Juventus and Liverpool came together and fix the damage that was done .

RIP to the people who died at heysel .

iDave

Cant say I approve of the 'Steaua Bucuresti 1986' banner from Liverpool fans. Poor taste.

scudzilla

Johner wrote: »

John Smith the Liverpool chairman at the time tried to put the blame on Chelsea fans.

A Liverpool chairman blaming someone else? Nah, don't believe it

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Liverpool fans got a terrible hiding in Rome the previous year,there was always going to be trouble in Belgium

So it was all about revenge?

Leftist

smileyj1987 wrote: »

. I do think it's time that Juventus and Liverpool came together and fix the damage that was done .

don't really agree with your tone that the italians brought it on themselves. if someone said something about hillsborough in the same vein, there would be outrage, and right so.

but this quoted line; that the onus is on juventus as much as liverpool to make things right, when they are the soul victims of this tragedy. It's just wrong imo.

Jelle1880

smileyj1987 wrote: »

What happened at heysel and hillsborough never should have happened . They are both a black mark on the sport and always will be .

What the Liverpool fans did that day was horrendous but I can see why it happened too . The Italians are some of the worst behaved fans in the world . Liverpool fans where stabbed in Rome the year before . So I can see why they had taken a dislike to Italian fans .

Even nowadays Italian fans are still at it . Didn't Manchester United give fans a brochure to tell them to stay out of certain areas in 2009 for the final . The Liverpool fans attacked in Naples . Manchester United fans attacked in 2007 during a game by Roma fans .

The thing I find shocking is the fact Italian fans still get away with this to this day . They really need to be told get your house in order ASAP .

Uefa should also take a portion of the blame the stadium at heysel was falling apart and that meant people had ammunition ready to start trouble . The game should never have taken place at that stadium .

Anyway enough of the moaning about certain fans or playing the blame game . I will say it again it shouldn't have ever happened . I do think it's time that Juventus and Liverpool came together and fix the damage that was done .

RIP to the people who died at heysel .

Posts like this (even though you obviously mean it with the best intentions) are one of the reasons why Juventus fans will probably never forgive Liverpool for what happened.

'It should have never happened but...' will always sound like somehow we should take other things in consideration and there are extenuating circumstances that caused it.

It should not matter whether Liverpool fans were attacked in Rome, or that the stadium was crumbling.

After reading Kenny Dalglish's comments it seems clear that there is a section within the Liverpool support that is all too willing to shift any blame that may lay with their fellow fans to Juventus fans, the stadium, UEFA, the police,...

shamrock55

fifa or uefa have never been held accountable for having this game played in a crumbling heap of rubble death trap (literally) no doubt the stadiums condition contributed to the deaths

Dozen Wicked Words

golfball37 wrote: »

Bruce Grobelaar said in later life it was BNP types from Chelsea and Millwall who went over to Brussels and started all the trouble that week.

He met one of them a few years later who told Bruce thinking Bruce might be a kindred spirit being a white African. I have no reason to disbelieve him.

Salt of the earth, totally trustworthy that man. Or possibly not.

Here's a nice quote about him from his libel trial by the trial judge.

Lord Bingham said: 'He had in fact acted in a way in which no decent or honest footballer would act, and in a way which could, if not exposed and stamped on, undermine the integrity of a game which earns the loyalty and support of millions.

'It would be an affront to justice if a court of law were to award substantial damages to a man shown to have acted in such flagrant breach of his legal and moral obligations.'

His ex wife paints a nice picture too.

http://nehandaradio.com/2010/01/04/grobbelaars-ex-wife-breaks-her-silence/

tayto lover

shamrock55 wrote: »

fifa or uefa have never been held accountable for having this game played in a crumbling heap of rubble death trap (literally) no doubt the stadiums condition contributed to the deaths

That wall didn't crumble in the previous match though.
Something made it crumble in that match.

K-9

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Posts like this (even though you obviously mean it with the best intentions) are one of the reasons why Juventus fans will probably never forgive Liverpool for what happened.

'It should have never happened but...' will always sound like somehow we should take other things in consideration and there are extenuating circumstances that caused it.

It should not matter whether Liverpool fans were attacked in Rome, or that the stadium was crumbling.

After reading Kenny Dalglish's comments it seems clear that there is a section within the Liverpool support that is all too willing to shift any blame that may lay with their fellow fans to Juventus fans, the stadium, UEFA, the police,...

When you're explaining you are losing.

There were extenuating circumstances, hooliganism the big one, the state of the stadium, poor police reaction and organisation, UEFA not giving a bollicks, stuff like that. That doesn't take away from what happened and where the ultimate blame lies.

It's something the club has to live with, for some (a decreasing number) it somehow tarnishes Hillsborough by association. They both share similarities and Heysel goes some way to explain the attitude of the authorities at Hillsborough.

As for Juventus fans, only the passage of time will help, Liverpool can make as many overtures as they want but some Juve fans just aren't ready for it, and tbh, I don't blame them.

Reading a piece about it a few months ago, it's a shame that the Italian authorities don't seem to mark it very well, which is a shame. Anniversaries like these should always be remembered, the lessons are still relevant today.

SEPT 23 1989

scudzilla wrote: »

So it was all about revenge?

Not initially but ii am sure it was in the back of the Liverpool's fans minds when the Italians started up again in the stadium

murpho999

I can't believe how people would think that this all descends down to what club you support.

The common factor here is people, and the behaviour of people is nothing to do with the club they support.

Met arseholes and nice people from different clubs and countries, it's just human nature.

Heysel was awful, remember watching it happen and was truly shocked. Stadium was the major issue that was deadly when combined with hooligans.

I think LFC have worked very hard with Juventus since to foster relations and an unsourced article from Sydney or picture of a minority does not reflect the truth,

Leftist

tayto lover wrote: »

That wall didn't crumble in the previous match though.
Something made it crumble in that match.

I think it might have been the people rushing the juve fans, attacking them and forcing them to crush into a wall.

but that's purely an architectural issue and juventus should make things better?

it appears from this pic that they are all chelsea supporters.

shamrock55

tayto lover wrote: »

That wall didn't crumble in the previous match though.
Something made it crumble in that match.

the wall that collapsed had zero foundations, it was buit straight on top of the ground, people throwing rocks at eachother were literally tearing chunks out of the stadium, i know what you are saying, but im also right in saying that the game should never have been held there in the first place, it didnt help matters

RasTa

mike65 wrote: »

Well done you. I come in peace and you take offence on behalf of the stricken, wind your neck in.

Nonsense tbh, all the blame lies at Liverpool fans for this one. You're moaning about their ultras at a game in 2005 trying to deflect as usual. I wouldn't have said anything until you started.

murpho999

tayto lover wrote: »

That wall didn't crumble in the previous match though.
Something made it crumble in that match.

What a stupid comment.

Nobody was squashed in Hillsborough before 89, did not make it safe.

Bradford stadium never went on fire before, did not mean it was safe.

Could list loads of examples outside football too.

5starpool

RasTa wrote: »

Nonsense tbh, all the blame lies at Liverpool fans for this one. You're moaning about their ultras at a game in 2005 trying to deflect as usual. I wouldn't have said anything until you started.

All the blame doesn't lie with Liverpool, but a very significant amount lies with those that charged that day, yes. I don't buy the whole non Liverpool fans being the ones that charged thing of course, but English football in general then was being destroyed by hooliganism and something big was always a possibility. The fact that that this happened is a disgrace to those hooligans whose actions on the day lead to the deaths of those fans, but uefas negligence contributed as well, as was borne out in the official report.

Agueroooo

RasTa wrote: »

Nonsense tbh, all the blame lies at Liverpool fans for this one. You're moaning about their ultras at a game in 2005 trying to deflect as usual. I wouldn't have said anything until you started.

yep the major factor was the behaviour of Liverpool supporters that day that wouldn't have minded a fight, but you need to read up and see there was other factors at play...some which when compared to todays public safety polices would have you double think.

but hey why go to the trouble when there is silly points to be scored on an internet forum.

this threads gone to the dogs, and within a matter of hours past its best before.

shame really.

Francie Barrett

RasTa wrote: »

all the blame lies at Liverpool fans for this one.

srfc d16

5starpool wrote: »

Good article here on this from last year. It's on a Liverpool related site, but written by Rory Smith of the times.

http://www.theanfieldwrap.com/2013/05/what-about-justice-for-heysel/#.U4bzXtDMmDw.twitter

Good piece.
I found this one very open and honest by Tony Evans of The Times.
He was at the game.
http://www.lfchistory.net/articles/article/3228

Vinz Mesrine

Could someone not just close this train wreck of a thread?

jmayo

UEFA, the local organisers and authorities have some questions to answer, but ultimately the fault lies with English fans.
And the weird thing is it happened at a Liverpool match, because their fans were never the worst in terms of hooliganism.

It was inevitable something major was going to some day happen involving an English team, either the naiotnal team or one of the clubs.

One of my first memories of the European championship is coming home one evening to see Italian riot police charging through the rioting English fans in their game against Belgium.
If I am not mistaken the ref gave his hankerchief to the English goalkeeper Ray Clemence because he was feeling the affects of the tear gas.

English fans were a huge problem, and yes some clubs had a worse deserved reputation than others.
Even after Heysel see how much trouble have their fans created in Germany 88, Holland group qualifiying game, England 96, France 98.

Thankfully with much tighter police monitoring the incidents have been eradicated.

Leftist

Agueroooo wrote: »

this threads gone to the dogs, and within a matter of hours past its best before.

shame really.

absolute nonsense.

apart from one or two posts which are either radically one way or the other, the rest have been reasonably balanced.

liverpool supporters and the authorities who chose the stage are responsible.

RasTa

Thread is fine tbh until we started talking about other reasons for the fans who were killed on that day.

DARK-KNIGHT

Vinz Mesrine wrote: »

Could someone not just close this train wreck of a thread?

Why would the thread be closed?

Leftist

DARK-KNIGHT wrote: »

Why would the thread be closed?

i think some sections don't want to hear anymore about responsibility.

DARK-KNIGHT

Its not about scoring points lads 39 people died i have family in the turin area and are juve fans believe me its still raw there and lfc will never be forgiven by juventus fans that lost friends and family.

just be respectful lads big irish italian community in ireland and lots use the boards forums it would be easy to cause offense here

scudzilla

srfc d16 wrote: »

Good piece.
I found this one very open and honest by Tony Evans of The Times.
He was at the game.
http://www.lfchistory.net/articles/article/3228

That about sums it up, great read

smileyj1987

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Posts like this (even though you obviously mean it with the best intentions) are one of the reasons why Juventus fans will probably never forgive Liverpool for what happened.

'It should have never happened but...' will always sound like somehow we should take other things in consideration and there are extenuating circumstances that caused it.

It should not matter whether Liverpool fans were attacked in Rome, or that the stadium was crumbling.

..

I don't want to offend anyone but when I look back something I like to judge it on all the angles and views from the time . What happened shouldn't have ever happened . No one should go to a football game and not come home .
I think there was a lot of circumstances that brought about the events that unfolded that day . A big chunk of the blame lies on the door of Liverpool fans but there was also other factors at play here . Events in Rome , hooliganism being rife and a badly crumbling stadium .

Agueroooo

DARK-KNIGHT wrote: »

Its not about scoring points lads 39 people died i have family in the turin area and are juve fans believe me its still raw there and lfc will never be forgiven by juventus fans that lost friends and family.

just be respectful lads big irish italian community in ireland and lots use the boards forums it would be easy to cause offense here

That is twice now you have spouted this tosh?

who is being disrespectful to the Juve dead?

Mickeroo

Ok folks, I think people need to take a step back here. Respect the victims of the tragedy and leave blame at the door. It's possible to have civil discussion and commemorate the tragedy without causing offence to people on both sides.

GavRedKing

My non-mod 2cents :

Heysel was a kip of stadium, run down and desperate need for repair, it was getting running repairs for years and was never fit for prupose, UEFa made a huge blunder in selecting it and then allowing to be sued for the final.

English fans for years have been going to Italy and getting atatcked with little or no protection from the local cops many of them not even travelling to Italy now a days as its an ongoing issue.

The report stated that a couple of Liverpool fans got in a bit of trouble with a vendor around the ground and he pulled a knife, arms and legs were added and word got around that the Italian fans had brought knives and Liverpool fans had been attacked, as with the way of second hand info, it all got blown way out of proportion.

There was holes found in the outer wall where extra fans which led to extra fans gaining access to the stadium.

Given the stadium was so sh*te, it was reportedly very easy to peel off brick, mortar, concrete which allowed both sets of fans to volley objects at each other.

LFC fans shouldnt have charged Juventus fans, it was reported that a few LFc fans ended up in the Juventus end and this is why they charged but there was no evidence of any LFC fans among the injured in the Juventus end neither was there any evidence of there ever been fans in with the Juventus fans.

The charge should have occured and again, going back to the stadium, the wall which collapsed was basically a free standing structure, it was so poorly constructed.

It was a shocking incident and a huge footballing tragedy and one that shouldnt be taken lightly no matter what side you fall on.

LFc have to shoulder a large degree of the blame but Juventus, UEFa and the Belgian police also have blame on their doorstep, the Police done f**k all about the missles and charging in the first place.

So can we stop trying get 1 up here, its a tragedy and fans got killed trying watch the game they loved.

RasTa

FFS isn't this thread about respecting who were killed?

DARK-KNIGHT

Agueroooo wrote: »

That is twice now you have spouted this tosh?

who is being disrespectful to the Juve dead?

I did not say once anyone was disrespectful to the dead

Pro. F

RasTa wrote: »

Nonsense tbh, all the blame lies at Liverpool fans for this one.

If you had been made head of Fifa and UEFA on the day after Heysel what would you have done to prevent that type of thing from happening again in future?

tayto lover

murpho999 wrote: »

What a stupid comment.

Nobody was squashed in Hillsborough before 89, did not make it safe.

Bradford stadium never went on fire before, did not mean it was safe.

Could list loads of examples outside football too.

The wall was there for years until one section of the fans attacked another set of fans and forced them to up against that wall. Heysel never had a collapse before that happened. The wall would have been there still if that didn't happen. Stop deflecting.

RasTa

Pro. F wrote: »

If you had been made head of Fifa and UEFA on the day after Heysel what would you have done to prevent that type of thing from happening again in future?

Banned Liverpool from Europe, 10 years.

Pro. F

RasTa wrote: »

Banned Liverpool from Europe, 10 years.

And nothing else?

RasTa

Pro. F wrote: »

And nothing else?

No, why? Same to other teams back then who had scum ruining matches

Leftist

Mickeroo wrote: »

Ok folks, I think people need to take a step back here. Respect the victims of the tragedy and leave blame at the door. It's possible to have civil discussion and commemorate the tragedy without causing offence to people on both sides.

it isn't pointscoring. maybe one or two instances, but generally it's discussing points which are still open for debate.

it's kind of a weak get out of jail card that is used whenever people discuss heysel. The liverpool support want to silence it, but it's confusing because every aspect of the hillsborough disaster was brought to light and discussed openly.

when people ask why the same isn't done for heysel, it's not always cheap point scoring. it's a relevant question.