Heysel disaster

DARK-KNIGHT

Leftist wrote: »

it isn't pointscoring. maybe one or two instances, but generally it's discussing points which are still open for debate.

it's kind of a weak get out of jail card that is used whenever people discuss heysel. The liverpool support want to silence it, but it's confusing because every aspect of the hillsborough disaster was brought to light and discussed openly.

when people ask why the same isn't done for heysel, it's not always cheap point scoring. it's a relevant question.

Great post.

K-9

tayto lover wrote: »

The wall was there for years until one section of the fans attacked another set of fans and forced them to up against that wall. Heysel never had a collapse before that happened. The wall would have been there still if that didn't happen. Stop deflecting.

So the state of the wall and stadium had no bearing on events?

Nothing would have changed if Heysel never happened?

Hooliganism and the attitude of the authorities all miraculously cured.

The FA had the same type of attitude about Hillsborough, wasn't the first time crushing occurred, and the authorities had been warned previously about Heysel.

K-9

Leftist wrote: »

it isn't pointscoring. maybe one or two instances, but generally it's discussing points which are still open for debate.

it's kind of a weak get out of jail card that is used whenever people discuss heysel. The liverpool support want to silence it, but it's confusing because every aspect of the hillsborough disaster was brought to light and discussed openly.

when people ask why the same isn't done for heysel, it's not always cheap point scoring. it's a relevant question.

I don't know why the Italian football authorities don't seem to give it the attention it deserves. What that has got to do with Liverpool fans I don't know.

eigrod

Leftist wrote: »

it's kind of a weak get out of jail card that is used whenever people discuss heysel. The liverpool support want to silence it, but it's confusing because every aspect of the hillsborough disaster was brought to light and discussed openly.

when people ask why the same isn't done for heysel, it's not always cheap point scoring. it's a relevant question.

Possibly because, as has been said many times, people were brought to justice for Heysel, nobody has for Hillsborough.

Not so sure you are right in saying that Liverpool support want to silence it. They just want the mitigating circumstances to be put out there.

Leftist

K-9 wrote: »

I don't know why the Italian football authorities don't seem to give it the attention it deserves. What that has got to do with Liverpool fans I don't know.

two separate debates really.

what is clearly still open to debate, in regards to liverpool's involvement, is the existence of a lot of people who still claim it was chelsea supporters who rushed the fans.
What is also a matter of debate, or at least an open opinion, is that juventus should take responsibility some how. I don't get that one at all. Has been mentioned numerous times on here. Could you really imagine someone asking liverpool supporters to take responsibility for their disaster 4 years later?

As for Italian authorities. What would you wish for them to do?

Agueroooo

DARK-KNIGHT wrote: »

Great post.

its not really and shows those that have, and have not read the official report, and what has been done since.

some wont be happy til they bolt Hysel onto the side of Hillsborough and then say ' see I told ya'

Leftist

Agueroooo wrote: »

its not really and shows those that have, and have not read the official report, and what had been done since.

some wont be happy til they bolt Hysel onto the side of Hillsborough and then say ' I told ya so'

now this is what is meant by hushing debate.

questions asked about heysel are implied as an insult to hillsborough.

you can't really have an honest debate when people do this.

Agueroooo

Leftist wrote: »

two separate debates really.

what is clearly still open to debate, in regards to liverpool's involvement, is the existence of a lot of people who still claim it was chelsea supporters who rushed the fans.


What is also a matter of debate, or at least an open opinion, is that juventus should take responsibility some how. I don't get that one at all. Has been mentioned numerous times on here. Could you really imagine someone asking liverpool supporters to take responsibility for their disaster 4 years later?

As for Italian authorities. What would you wish for them to do?

the bits in bold.

that is only your opinion tbh

Agueroooo

Leftist wrote: »

now this is what is meant by hushing debate.

questions asked about heysel are implied as an insult to hillsborough.

you can't really have an honest debate when people do this.

wasn't directed at you, but hang around here long enough and you will see what I mean.

Francie Barrett

eigrod wrote: »

Possibly because, as has been said many times, people were brought to justice for Heysel, nobody has for Hillsborough.

Not so sure you are right in saying that Liverpool support want to silence it. They just want the mitigating circumstances to be put out there.

+1

The thugs responsible for the disaster who call themselves Liverpool fans were prosecuted. Some of the authorities involved were also called to justice.

Hillsborough was a completely different scenario.

eigrod

Leftist wrote: »

two separate debates really.

what is clearly still open to debate, in regards to liverpool's involvement, is the existence of a lot of people who still claim it was chelsea supporters who rushed the fans.
What is also a matter of debate, or at least an open opinion, is that juventus should take responsibility some how. I don't get that one at all. Has been mentioned numerous times on here. Could you really imagine someone asking liverpool supporters to take responsibility for their disaster 4 years later?

Who makes these 2 claims ? If you're making judgements based on a few posts on an Irish internet forum (and probably by people under the age of 45 who won't have a clue what really went on), then your point has absolutely no basis. If someone in a somewhat official LFC capacity, or LFC supporters capacity is making these claims, then name them.

The facts really are simple enough and are summed up extremely well in the second last paragraph of Tony Evans piece quoted above : "The disaster has a long causal chain — stabbings and beatings in Rome, hair-trigger tempers, aggression on both sides, excessive drinking, poor policing and a stadium ripe for disaster. Remove any one link and the game may have passed off peacefully. But it didn’t."

Fescue

This is a great piece written about the events of that day by Tony Evans.

[/QUOTE] Apologies I din't realise it had been already linked to.

Mod Note : No posting of full articles.

DARK-KNIGHT

Agueroooo wrote: »

its not really and shows those that have, and have not read the official report, and what has been done since.

some wont be happy til they bolt Hysel onto the side of Hillsborough and then say ' see I told ya'

Heysel has nothing to do with hillsborough. Nobody thinks it was or think it should be thrown at hillsborough as a remember what happened thing.. respect to the hillsborough dead but that tradgedy has its day to remember tge dead and rightly so.


why is hillsborough being dragged into this thread? This thread should be to remember those that died in that horrible
Atrocity. I know work has been done to ease tensions but the turin faithful will always hold it against lfc as a club rather than the individuals responsible. It could be a lot to do with lenient punishment for the offenders.

All i will say is its a terrible atrocity that should never have happened sad to think 39 lives lost while trying to watch a game.

darced

This post has been deleted.

NTMK

DARK-KNIGHT wrote: »

why is hillsborough being dragged into this thread? This thread should be to remember those that died in that horrible
Atrocity. I know work has been done to ease tensions but the turin faithful will always hold it against lfc as a club rather than the individuals responsible. It could be a lot to do with lenient punishment for the offenders.

a lot of Juve fans dont give 2 ****s what either clubs to ease tensions since that doesnt translate to the fans they play eachother so rarely that heysel is always at the forefront

Juve and Liverpool were ****ing awful in their response to Heysel and the fans are still raw about it and i cant blame them

Fescue

I think Liverpool should accept any and all of the blame attributed to them for the events that happened that day.

The fact it doesn't get as much coverage as Hillsborough is not the fault of Liverpool though. I don't think people should assume it gets less coverage because Liverpool as a club and its supporters have attempted to silence it.

The Bradford fire is another example of an incident that doesn't get as much coverage as Hillsborough, I don't think there is an effort to silence that either.

Hillsborough has remained in the minds of people for so long because of the efforts of the families of the victims to uncover the truth behind what happened.

Utopia Parkway

jmayo wrote: »

UEFA, the local organisers and authorities have some questions to answer, but ultimately the fault lies with English fans.
And the weird thing is it happened at a Liverpool match, because their fans were never the worst in terms of hooliganism.

As you say Liverpool didn't even have much of a hooligan element in comparison to most clubs in England at the time. Young scallies would do some thieving abroad alright as Liverpool were in Europe practically every season but many other clubs had far worse problems with organised violence around football grounds. Liverpool were not known for having any kind of serious hooligan element at the time. At least at an organised level.

Heysel like Hillsborough was never down to just one thing but a variety of factors that came together to lead to a tragedy. Fans throwing rocks from a crumbling stand at each other, a decrepit stadium, poor policing, excessive drinking, etc. The multiple stabbings received by Liverpool fans in Rome the previous year probably heightened tension amongst an element of the Liverpool support. Certainly fans throwing stuff and charging at each other was not an uncommon sight during the 80's but usually they could not get at each other so easily.

Definitely one of the saddest and most tragic days in football history. And not really an appropriate subject for point scoring IMO. No more so than something like Hillsborough or Munich.

Pro. F

RasTa wrote: »

No, why? Same to other teams back then who had scum ruining matches

Well the reason I asked was to try to get you to admit that there was more that caused the disaster than just the fact that the Liverpool fans involved were "scum" or whatever you think of them.

The truth is that the same could have happened with any set of fans if they were treated the same way and put in the same situation. A lot has been discovered about how humans react in large football crowds depending on the surroundings and treatment since the nightmares of the 80s. And a lot has been learned about why safe structures matter. Those lessons have been put to good use and thankfully we're all a lot safer these days because of that.

However it's clear now that you don't care or are unaware of this.

Leftist

eigrod wrote: »

Who makes these 2 claims ? If you're making judgements based on a few posts on an Irish internet forum (and probably by people under the age of 45 who won't have a clue what really went on), then your point has absolutely no basis. If someone in a somewhat official LFC capacity, or LFC supporters capacity is making these claims, then name them.

we're all just posters on an internet forum and if none of our opinions matter, then what's the point of any discussion?

No, not having that. To say that it's not relevant unless it's an official statement is just a cop out. Or a means to snuff out the discussion.

tayto lover

K-9 wrote: »

So the state of the wall and stadium had no bearing on events?

Nothing would have changed if Heysel never happened?

Hooliganism and the attitude of the authorities all miraculously cured.

The FA had the same type of attitude about Hillsborough, wasn't the first time crushing occurred, and the authorities had been warned previously about Heysel.

Another attempt to deflect.

Why did the wall not fall in the previous match?
Answer - Nobody rioted.

Regardless of the state of the wall it was the riot that started the chain of events.
If people behaved themselves nobody would have been killed that night but they didn't.
It's a bit like saying "the drink made me do it" that you read in court cases.

Fescue

tayto lover wrote: »

Another attempt to deflect.

Why did the wall not fall in the previous match?
Answer - Nobody rioted.

Regardless of the state of the wall it was the riot that started the chain of events.
If people behaved themselves nobody would have been killed that night but they didn't.

I don't think anyone is absolving the Liverpool fans of responsibility for the incident. However, when a disaster occurs all factors are accounted for.

eigrod

Leftist wrote: »

we're all just posters on an internet forum and if none of our opinions matter, then what's the point of any discussion?

No, not having that. To say that it's not relevant unless it's an official statement is just a cop out. Or a means to snuff out the discussion.

But you said "a lot of people", and you still haven't named 1 !

tayto lover

Fescue wrote: »

I don't think anyone is absolving the Liverpool fans of responsibility for the incident. However, when a disaster occurs all factors are accounted for.

I don't care which fans caused it. Bad manners caused it.

Agueroooo

tayto lover wrote: »

I don't care which fans caused it. Bad manners caused it.

ever heard of risk assessment ?

Fescue

tayto lover wrote: »

I don't care which fans caused it. Bad manners caused it.

It was a lot more than bad manners. It was a multitude of factors with the main one being the behaviour of Liverpool fans.

LuckyLloyd

Leftist wrote: »

it isn't pointscoring. maybe one or two instances, but generally it's discussing points which are still open for debate.

it's kind of a weak get out of jail card that is used whenever people discuss heysel. The liverpool support want to silence it, but it's confusing because every aspect of the hillsborough disaster was brought to light and discussed openly.

when people ask why the same isn't done for heysel, it's not always cheap point scoring. it's a relevant question.

Interesting, because it isn't Liverpool fans on this thread who don't seem open to discussing all aspects of the tragedy:

RasTa wrote: »

Nonsense tbh, all the blame lies at Liverpool fans for this one. You're moaning about their ultras at a game in 2005 trying to deflect as usual. I wouldn't have said anything until you started.

RasTa wrote: »

Thread is fine tbh until we started talking about other reasons for the fans who were killed on that day.

RasTa wrote: »

FFS isn't this thread about respecting who were killed?

RasTa wrote: »

Banned Liverpool from Europe, 10 years.

Pro. F wrote: »

And nothing else?

RasTa wrote: »

No, why? Same to other teams back then who had scum ruining matches

Fescue wrote: »

I think Liverpool should accept any and all of the blame attributed to them for the events that happened that day.

The positive thing is that, too long after should have been the case, today we don't have the kind of institutional incompetence and widespread fan hooliganism that could cause this sort of disaster. Grounds are better spec'ed and policing around major football games is far better organised and planned. It is a severe long shot that we ever see a similar type of incident occur.

tayto lover

Agueroooo wrote: »

ever heard of risk assessment ?

How did that figure in the previous game held there?
How do you know that nobody would have died even if the wall didn't collapse?

Augmerson

English football was rife with hooliganism in the 1980s. If you ever read a good book on English soccer, read Fever Pitch by Nick Hornby. Hornby describes most matches he attends as having some hooligan element present and that it was almost elemental to the game in England. He pretty much says, if it hadn't of happened at Heysel, it would have happened elsewhere.

That said, it did happen it Heysel. And as a Liverpool supporter, I have always felt pretty sickened by it all. I wish it had never happened, because it set back European football for English clubs (should I care about English soccer when I'm Irish?) at a time when they were set to dominate and were.

Heysel should have never been chosen, it was a decrepit ruin really. But it still doesn't excuse what happened.

RIP to the victims and their families, your loss is our loss too.

Fescue

Those who feel that Liverpool don't do enough to remember the people who lost their lives at Heysel may well have a point. Perhaps a greater effort should be made to commerate the victims each year.

But its a difficult one. Its difficult to know if that kind of effort is welcomed by the families of the victims, perhaps its not.

Augmerson

Fescue wrote: »

Those who feel that Liverpool don't do enough to remember the people who lost their lives at Heysel may well have a point. Perhaps a greater effort should be made to commerate the victims each year.

But its a difficult one. Its difficult to know if that kind of effort is welcomed by the families of the victims, perhaps its not.

I think Liverpool played Juventus in a UEFA Cup tie a couple of years back and at the Anfield leg there was quiet an effort made to express sympathy and apologize. Many Juventus fans turned their back on that and I don't blame them, it's easy to say sorry, harder to forgive.

RasTa

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Interesting, because it isn't Liverpool fans on this thread who don't seem open to discussing all aspects of the tragedy:

Well I've being responding to questions and my first comment was aimed at Mike for having the cheek to insult their fans or ultras in his mind for turning their back and giving the club the finger in 2005.

K-9

Leftist wrote: »

Could you really imagine someone asking liverpool supporters to take responsibility for their disaster 4 years later?

I don't have to imagine it, it happened.

DARK-KNIGHT wrote: »

Heysel has nothing to do with hillsborough. Nobody thinks it was or think it should be thrown at hillsborough as a remember what happened thing.. respect to the hillsborough dead but that tradgedy has its day to remember tge dead and rightly so.


why is hillsborough being dragged into this thread? This thread should be to remember those that died in that horrible
Atrocity. I know work has been done to ease tensions but the turin faithful will always hold it against lfc as a club rather than the individuals responsible. It could be a lot to do with lenient punishment for the offenders.

All i will say is its a terrible atrocity that should never have happened sad to think 39 lives lost while trying to watch a game.

I'd say they are very much related and share common causes. Indeed one of the reasons Hillsborough happened was the policy as regards events like Heysel.

A common reaction when Hillsborough occurred was to blame it on hooliganism, something the authorities took full advantage of. Heysel would have been in many peoples minds and many would have blamed Liverpool fans because of it.

That attitude in my opinion still forms a basis for the conspiracy theorists about Hillsborough.

Chucky the tree

Not surprising to see the usual suspects all over this one. A large portion of blame is with Liverpool fans, don't think you'll find any Liverpool fans here who will disagree.

K-9

tayto lover wrote: »

Another attempt to deflect.

Why did the wall not fall in the previous match?
Answer - Nobody rioted.

Regardless of the state of the wall it was the riot that started the chain of events.
If people behaved themselves nobody would have been killed that night but they didn't.
It's a bit like saying "the drink made me do it" that you read in court cases.

Nope, my first post deflected nothing, Liverpool fans are to blame.

If you aren't interested in the context and the history of the time, fair enough, gives a rather black and white opinion on things in my opinion, but fair enough.

If you think the state of the stadium had no bearing on the events, fair enough.

patmac

For those of us old enough to attend matches in the 70's and 80's it could easily have happened if United, Leeds, Chelsea etc were playing in that final unfortunately most teams had a sizeable hooligan element attached to them, Heysel was a disaster waiting to happen, if it didn't happen then it was going to happen the following season. A terrible tragedy but the lesson's learned have made soccer a much safer place. I still get a sickening feeling when I remember some of the horrible events of those times and they should never be forgotten. (Utd fan BTW)

Mr Alan

This thread is a ****ing abortion.

There's something remarkably pathetic about using a tragedy where people actually died to wind up rival fans. Most people here are not doing it out of genuine sorrow for the victims who died, they're just using the deaths of these people to slate a club they hate and to wind up fans of that club now. Honestly, it's ****ing pathetic.

The Liverpool fans involved on the night should be ashamed, it's undoubtably a black mark against the history of the club. But there was also clearly other factors. This doesn't remove blame. The whole thing was just a tragedy. RIP.

Vinz Mesrine

Mr Alan wrote: »

This thread is a ****ing abortion.

There's something remarkably pathetic about using a tragedy where people actually died to wind up rival fans. Most people here are not doing it out of genuine sorrow for the victims who died, they're just using the deaths of these people to slate a club they hate and to wind up fans of that club now. Honestly, it's ****ing pathetic.

The Liverpool fans involved on the night should be ashamed, it's undoubtably a black mark against the history of the club. But there was also clearly other factors. This doesn't remove blame. The whole thing was just a tragedy. RIP.

You're wasting your time trying to speak sense with those people who have no interest here bar point scoring.

RasTa

Oh look the usual posters in moaning about the usual posters without adding anything.

See I can do it too? I do disagree that it was a disaster waiting to happen, that was Hillsborough.

The_Kew_Tour

fair play to the Liverpool fans here.(well most)

Really showing class about situation and not blaming others like the false allegations past.

I know few Juve fans who would appreciate the comments in here.

I hope to head over for 30th anniversey next year with few lads.

read a lot about this over past number of years.

I be far more pissed off with Italian Government and certain clubs in Italy as much as anyone else.

slingerz

K-9 wrote: »

Nope, my first post deflected nothing, Liverpool fans are to blame.

If you aren't interested in the context and the history of the time, fair enough, gives a rather black and white opinion on things in my opinion, but fair enough.

If you think the state of the stadium had no bearing on the events, fair enough.

In any event such as Heysel or Hillsborough there are more than 1 factor to blame as nothing can happen in isolation.

For example, the actions of the SYP and those involved in hosting the game who placed the Liverpool fans, who had the larger support base, in the Leppings Lane end are all contributing factors. The cover up that followed would predominantly lay at the feet of the SYP but also at the door of the FA

Similarly for Heysel, the actions of the Liverpool fans on that day were the main contributing factor to the disaster. However as with Hillsborough and the FA's culpability, UEFA need to be apportioned the blame for scheduling a fixture of that magnitude in Heysel.

Separate to all of this, is the approach and mindset of those in authority at the time among the football clubs, associations and police regarding football matches, their staging and the widespread football violence and hooliganism that was commonplace at the time across all clubs. This is perhaps the summation of the factors behind both tragedies and others such as the Bradford fire and Ibrox. The change of approach that was taken by all those parties since those days has ensured that it is now safer for all to attend football matches for fans.

Vinz Mesrine

RasTa wrote: »

Oh look the usual posters in moaning about the usual posters without adding anything.

See I can do it too? I do disagree that it was a disaster waiting to happen, that was Hillsborough.

What have you added to the discussion?

That it was solely the fault of Liverpool fans and nobody else? A great input alright.

Fescue

RasTa wrote: »

Oh look the usual posters in moaning about the usual posters without adding anything.

See I can do it too? I do disagree that it was a disaster waiting to happen, that was Hillsborough.

Why?

RasTa

Fescue wrote: »

Why?

You can't guarantee that a bunch of hooligans charging at fans was inevitable

It hosted European Cup finals in 1958, 1966, 1974, and 1985 and Cup Winners' Cup finals in 1964, 1976 and 1980.

Vinz Mesrine wrote: »

What have you added to the discussion?

That it was solely the fault of Liverpool fans and nobody else? A great input alright.

Why do I always have to repeat myself to you people, just pay your respects and move on.

Vinz Mesrine

RasTa wrote: »

Why do I always have to repeat myself to you people, just pay your respects and move on.

Another great addition to the thread. I asked you a fairly simple question.

Fescue

RasTa wrote: »

You can't guarantee that a bunch of hooligans charging at fans was inevitable

I think you have a point but at the same time, there is unanimous consensus that the stadium was in a bad condition. Even just by the use of common sense, UEFA might have chosen another venue in the interests of safety.

Godge

tayto lover wrote: »

Another attempt to deflect.

Why did the wall not fall in the previous match?
Answer - Nobody rioted.

Regardless of the state of the wall it was the riot that started the chain of events.
If people behaved themselves nobody would have been killed that night but they didn't.
It's a bit like saying "the drink made me do it" that you read in court cases.

K-9 wrote: »

I don't have to imagine it, it happened.



I'd say they are very much related and share common causes. Indeed one of the reasons Hillsborough happened was the policy as regards events like Heysel.

A common reaction when Hillsborough occurred was to blame it on hooliganism, something the authorities took full advantage of. Heysel would have been in many peoples minds and many would have blamed Liverpool fans because of it.

That attitude in my opinion still forms a basis for the conspiracy theorists about Hillsborough.

K-9 wrote: »

Nope, my first post deflected nothing, Liverpool fans are to blame.

If you aren't interested in the context and the history of the time, fair enough, gives a rather black and white opinion on things in my opinion, but fair enough.

If you think the state of the stadium had no bearing on the events, fair enough.

As with any major incident there are multiple factors involved.

In the same way that Liverpool fans are not 100% responsible for Heysel, they are not 0% responsible for Hillsborough.

The problem with both incidents is that too many people take absolutist views - Hillsborough was all the fault of the SYP and
- Heysel was all the fault of Liverpool fans.

Neither statement is true.

Vinz Mesrine

Fescue wrote: »

I think you have a point but at the same time, there is unanimous consensus that the stadium was in a bad condition. Even just by the use of common sense, UEFA might have chosen another venue in the interests of safety.

Except by those posters with a blatant agenda.

RainMaker

RasTa wrote: »

You can't guarantee that a bunch of hooligans charging at fans was inevitable





Why do I always have to repeat myself to you people, just pay your respects and move on.

Independent reports afterwards clearly criticized the choice of stadium. Both teams even tried to get it moved beforehand.
It may have hosted European finals previously, but it was in a state of disrepair by the time of the 1985 final

Washington Irving

RasTa wrote: »

Why do I always have to repeat myself to you people, just pay your respects and move on.

You're not exactly leading by example on that count.

K-9

RasTa wrote: »

You can't guarantee that a bunch of hooligans charging at fans was inevitable





Why do I always have to repeat myself to you people, just pay your respects and move on.

It isn't in dispute that it held finals before. Errr, that's actually the whole point.