Heysel disaster

RasTa

Vinz Mesrine wrote: »

You're wasting your time trying to speak sense with those people who have no interest here bar point scoring.

Vinz Mesrine wrote: »

Could someone not just close this train wreck of a thread?

Vinz Mesrine wrote: »

Mike I hope they don't get drawn against each other, I seem to recall a rather hostile atmosphere in 2005.

Vinz Mesrine wrote: »

What have you added to the discussion?

That it was solely the fault of Liverpool fans and nobody else? A great input alright.

Vinz Mesrine wrote: »

Except by those posters with a blatant agenda.

I've said twice already that I only started posting when mike called their fans cheerleaders in 05. However well done for adding nothing as usual.

Vinz Mesrine

RasTa wrote: »

I've said twice already that I only started posting when mike called their fans cheerleaders in 05. However well done for adding nothing as usual.

And you know for a fact that those people in the picture definitely knew someone who was killed at Heysel? No, you are just trying to take a cheap shot at Liverpool fans, it's pathetic and completely see through.

RasTa

RainMaker wrote: »

Independent reports afterwards clearly criticized the choice of stadium. Both teams even tried to get it moved beforehand.
It may have hosted European finals previously, but it was in a state of disrepair by the time of the 1985 final

K-9 wrote: »

It isn't in dispute that it held finals before. Errr, that's actually the whole point.

The whole point to me is that if Liverpool fans hadn't charged that day nobody would have died, it's that black and white to me and Juvents fans.

This was no fire or overcrowding.

Vinz Mesrine wrote: »

And you know for a fact that those people in the picture definitely knew someone who was killed at Heysel? No, you are just trying to take a cheap shot at Liverpool fans, it's pathetic and completely see through.

What are you waffling about now? The fact you think I'm using deaths to take a cheap shot at Liverpool says more about you then me tbh. Why would they have to definitely know someone who was killed to stick the finger up anyway, bizarre stuff.

DARK-KNIGHT

Some of you should be ****ing ashamed of yourselves bickering on this thread tbh. If the thread gets closed because of you then shame on you

Vinz Mesrine

RasTa wrote: »

The whole point to me is that if Liverpool fans hadn't charged that day nobody would have died, it's that black and white to me and Juvents fans.

This was no fire or overcrowding.

And if Juventus fans hadn't started trouble outside, the Liverpool fans wouldn't have charged.

If it was in a decent stadium, the wall wouldn't have collapsed which would have meant a lot less deaths.

See, I can do that too.

Fescue

RasTa wrote: »

The whole point to me is that if Liverpool fans hadn't charged that day nobody would have died, it's that black and white to me and Juvents fans.

This was no fire or overcrowding.

Life isn't black and white though is it. Its much more complicated than that.

MaroonAndGreen

Vinz Mesrine wrote: »

And if Juventus fans hadn't started trouble outside, the Liverpool fans wouldn't have charged.

If it was in a decent stadium, the wall wouldn't have collapsed which would have meant a lot less deaths.

See, I can do that too.

Ah now come on, thats the kinda comment that absolutely riles up people. Of course there is blame on alot of people: UEFA for stadium choice, Juventus fans and Liverpool fans have blame as obviously there was conflict on both sides, I think lots are more than willing to accept that.

But your practically saying it was their own fault 39 of them got killed cos they started a bit of trouble outside the ground. Thats ridiculous, maybe they started trouble outside but thats no justification for the Liverpool fans charging.

Bounty Hunter

DARK-KNIGHT wrote: »

Some of you should be ****ing ashamed of yourselves bickering on this thread tbh. If the thread gets closed because of you then shame on you

i'd like to remind everyone of this post from a page or two back

Mickeroo wrote: »

Ok folks, I think people need to take a step back here. Respect the victims of the tragedy and leave blame at the door. It's possible to have civil discussion and commemorate the tragedy without causing offence to people on both sides.

now I know it was argued by people that it's not pointscoring thats going on and that instead there are relevant questions being asked but it would be a shame if a thread commemorating when 39 people died 29 years ago today had to be closed. Please keep it civil people

Thanx 4 The Fish

murpho999 wrote: »

What a stupid comment.

Nobody was squashed in Hillsborough before 89, did not make it safe.

Bradford stadium never went on fire before, did not mean it was safe.

Could list loads of examples outside football too.

People were crushed in hillsborough in 81, 40 or so injuries, fortunately though nobody died that day.

Agueroooo

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote: »

People were crushed in hillsborough in 81, 40 or so injuries, fortunately though nobody died that day.

Yep at Leppings lane end as well.

Spurs cup game.
http://hotspurhq.com/2014/04/11/tottenham-day-hillsborough-spurs/

Al Capwned

Some of the posts in this thread are shocking.

I remember sitting down to watch it, I was 8. I didn't comprehend or appreciate what was happening, and just wanted to watch a football match.

Same as the lads that died. RIP.

DARK-KNIGHT

Vinz Mesrine wrote: »

And if Juventus fans hadn't started trouble outside, the Liverpool fans wouldn't have charged.

If it was in a decent stadium, the wall wouldn't have collapsed which would have meant a lot less deaths.

See, I can do that too.

Disgusting

DARK-KNIGHT

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote: »

People were crushed in hillsborough in 81, 40 or so injuries, fortunately though nobody died that day.

The fact that happened in 81 makes hillsborough tragedy where the 96 died even more tragic. How did they not put a plan in action in 81

Fescue

DARK-KNIGHT wrote: »

The fact that happened in 81 makes hillsborough tragedy where the 96 died even more tragic. How did they not put a plan in action in 81

I think all that showed how football fans were viewed by the authorities during the 80's.

Pro. F

Fescue wrote: »

I think all that showed how football fans were viewed by the authorities during the 80's.

Exactly.

- Blame everything on hooligans;
- Take no account of the driving factors that were fostering hooliganism and making it more dangerous;
- Focus on how horrible hooligans are (and by association all other football fans) and so more easily overlook safety issues at football grounds.

It's the same thought process that you can see being expressed by RasTa in this thread. Thankfully the people and organisations in power have matured beyond that type of thought process these days.

nice_guy80

I'd just like to say

RIP Heysel 39
That is all

barone

your man utd vs liverpool bull ****e has no place in a thread like this, people died ffs, because of other people ,its not up for debate.

if i was a juve fan i would never forgive those responsible either, none of those who were are posting in this thread ,or post in the lfc superthread im pretty confident of that so using the deaths of those poor people to ,and lets call it for what it is,cause a ruckus in a thread in a hope bans get handed out to rival fans is beyond appalling .


bottom line is juve fans died because of pool's hooligans and shoddy stadium and security .. its never been refuted,it really shouldnt be even debated as its well documented, look it up before commenting on it ,
sorry i even looked in here.

bad2dabone

A very sad affair, RIP to all those who lost their lives.

Benimar

RIP to the 39 people who lost their lives.

Anyone even thinking about using this thread to have a pop at Liverpool and their fans needs to take a long hard look at themselves.

This is a thread to show respect to those who died.

keane2097

Decent effort by rasta if he's trolling, if not just wow.

I am pie

I know it has been posted already, but seriously, just read Tony Evan's account of the day.

Each party involved can only admit to their own guilt. Liverpools fans who took part in violence anywhere in Brussels contributed, there were a number of catalytic factors which fanned the flames, but ultimately those don't excuse the violence.

UEFA and the Belgian authorities also have blood on their hands it would become them to own up.

I haven't read any Italian accounts so I can't speak to the behaviour of their crowd, my suspicion would be that there behaviour was no more or less provocative than in other away days. It is no secret Italian football has an Ultra element and there have been incidents but I suspect (again, no idea) that they did not provoke the Liverpool fans any more than ever happens on large away days in Europe.

It is right and correct that apologies are continuously offered and respects paid. We can't change the past but we can respect it and learn from it.

Any point scoring in here just speaks to the emotional immaturity of the poster responsible. Not the day for it.

Hulk Hands

Francie Barrett wrote: »

+1

The thugs responsible for the disaster who call themselves Liverpool fans were prosecuted. Some of the authorities involved were also called to justice.

Hillsborough was a completely different scenario.

Perhaps im wrong but I was always under the impression that there were shockingly inept punishments handed out for Heysel, for all parties involved, and indeed many of the jail terms were never even fufilled? It was given as a reason why Juventus fans hatred still ran so deep in 05.

Soft Falling Rain

RIP to the 39, such a tragedy.

I don't think Liverpool as a club or in their support try to bury or ignore what happened. The club in particular has very much recognised the tragedy in a respectful and above all else, a lamentable manner.

I think that's the best word to describe LFC's menality towards Heysel. It would be wrong to overegg it as to be frank, it's not the club's tragedy. It had its role in it, and it's acknowledged in a tactful manner. To do anymore than that would be disingenuous and patronising towards Juve and their fans.

niallo27

I was only 5 myself when it happened. Did the match just kick off at the normal time while everything was happening around it.

Al Capwned

niallo27 wrote: »

I was only 5 myself when it happened. Did the match just kick off at the normal time while everything was happening around it.

Nah it was delayed for a while. 90 minutes or so? Open to correction on that.

I remember reading once that the decision was made to go ahead with it because it was felt that if they abandoned it, there'd be killings outside the ground. Literally.

darced

This post has been deleted.

Blatter

I thought it was a terrible decision to go ahead with the match.

mike65

Blatter wrote: »

I thought it was a terrible decision to go ahead with the match.

It may have seemed almost inexplicable but at the time the view was that the match taking place would give the authorities time to organise themselves while no doubt hoping that the immediate anger/adrenalin would have a chance to subside.

SEPT 23 1989

Blatter wrote: »

I thought it was a terrible decision to go ahead with the match.

Going ahead with the match saved more lives

The_Kew_Tour

Its not been mentioned at all in here and it shows the lack of knowledge most people have on the subject, but people do realise there was also a cover up by Italian authorities at the time and to this day.

People should read up on this and you will see that the victims fight for justice will never happen and has been brushed under the carpet.(im talking proper justice)

Clubs Juve play weekly can be seen with disrespectful slogans and chants. It happens so much yet nothing is done about it.

The Italian Government have a lot to answer for. Its beyond words what excuses and the lack of care they gave the victims.

kingtubby

MaroonAndGreen wrote: »

Ah now come on, thats the kinda comment that absolutely riles up people. Of course there is blame on alot of people: UEFA for stadium choice, Juventus fans and Liverpool fans have blame as obviously there was conflict on both sides, I think lots are more than willing to accept that.

But your practically saying it was their own fault 39 of them got killed cos they started a bit of trouble outside the ground. Thats ridiculous, maybe they started trouble outside but thats no justification for the Liverpool fans charging.

I just read this piece written by Daglaish on the event.
http://www.contrast.org/hillsborough/history/dalglish-heysel.shtm


He seemed to exhibit this exact attitude. All he seems to care about is deflecting as much blame from Liverpool fans as possible.

kingtubby

Hulk Hands wrote: »

Perhaps im wrong but I was always under the impression that there were shockingly inept punishments handed out for Heysel, for all parties involved, and indeed many of the jail terms were never even fufilled? It was given as a reason why Juventus fans hatred still ran so deep in 05.

7 fans got 3 years. Another 7 got 3 years but they were suspended.

To say the least with 39 people dead that does not seem fair.

losthorizon

iDave wrote: »

Watched a Youtube documentary on this. It was just such a bizarre night.
Amazing to think that despite the deaths they played the match anyway. Juventus players and fans celebrated at the end like nothing happened. Winning that match was like instant revenge for them.
Shameful day for football, Liverpool in particular.
At least in the aftermath of this and Hillsbourough as well as Bradford and Ibrox we got better stadiums built around Europe (except Ireland).

The Juventus fans in the other parts of the ground actually didnt know that had happened (ie injury and deaths) - they certainly didnt know about the deaths. Neither did the players who were told for safety reasons it was perhaps better to play the game.

I was watching the game live on TV and I certainly wasnt aware when it was happening that all those people had died. Maybe if memory serves me right it might have been mentioned towards the end of the game that there was a causality or two - could be wrong about that as its a long time ago.

Interesting set of interviews here although Phil Neal comes across like a complete prick.
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2005/apr/03/newsstory.sport

MonkeyTennis

It was never a penalty.

padd b1975

Phil Neal ....

shamrock55

MonkeyTennis wrote: »

It was never a penalty.

That was crazy tbf, it was about 3ft ouside the box, but i guess the ref just wanted the game to end and get the hell outta there

Dozen Wicked Words

padd b1975 wrote: »

Phil Neal ....

Horrible, horrible way for Phil Neal to answer but the journalist stitched him up by printing what he said word for word. Declined to comment would have covered it, he was just point scoring there.

OnTheCouch

Think this review of Heysel is fairly objective, looks at different viewpoints and tries to explain why some myths about the disaster continue to persist even to this day. (Scroll down for Heysel part).


http://thegreatcritique.wordpress.com/2013/12/09/hillsborough-heysel-valley-parade-and-ibrox-why-are-stadium-disasters-always-prone-to-urban-mythology/

monkey9

Heysel, like Hillsborough, is something that should be read up on. But the sad sad people who want to point score by using the deaths of football fans won't to do that. It doesn't suit them.

DARK-KNIGHT

29 years ago today 39 families were dealing with loss of family members. So sad.

R.I.P

Al Capwned

OnTheCouch wrote: »

Think this review of Heysel is fairly objective, looks at different viewpoints and tries to explain why some myths about the disaster continue to persist even to this day. (Scroll down for Heysel part).


http://thegreatcritique.wordpress.com/2013/12/09/hillsborough-heysel-valley-parade-and-ibrox-why-are-stadium-disasters-always-prone-to-urban-mythology/

Yeah that's the article I referred to in my answer to Niallos question earlier in the thread. I read it around the time of the Bradford Fire anniversary a couple weeks ago.

willmunny1990

RIP to the 39.

Such a shame real justice wasn't dished out to the perpetrators of that day.

Primarily the Liverpool fans who charged, but the UEFA officials who let the match go ahead at that stadium should of been punished more severely also IMO, also the Belgian authorities have a lot to answer for too.

Flint Fredstone

Bump.
Anniversary today. Not much mention of it across the forum?

Harry Palmr

Well unlike Hillsborough the law took its course (though as pointed out above not nearly extensively enough), obviously the Juve forums will be talking about this. I've seen threads on reddit/Liverpool and RAWK among various LFC related message boards and sites today.

citytillidie

http://www.liverpoolfc.com/news/announcements/223457-lfc-marks-31st-anniversary-of-heysel-stadium-disaster

Flint Fredstone

I didn't say nobody on earth mentioned it. I just thought it strange there wasn't one mention of it in this forum.

omega man

RIP.

The 11 year boy who died with his father always stuck with me. How excited must he have been travelling abroad with his dad to watch his team play in a European cup final. The excitement of the build up and walking into the stadium and witnessing the colour and atmosphere. He must have been in awe of it all. Tragically he never left the stadium that night, never even saw the damn game, the celebrations and never returned home to his mother.

Truly awful stuff and as a dad who brings his young kids to stadium matches regularly the story of this boy is always in my thoughts, particularly on the anniversary.

DARK-KNIGHT

Just like hillsborough the victims never really got justice well until now with hillsborough and they deserved the justice they finally got this year.

But the 39 juve fans were never truly justified and i hope they eventually do get justice the sentences handed out were a joke... 39 deaths just let that sink in..

Once again i hope their families find peace

K-9

I can still vividly remember running home to watch it, my Mam stopped the car while I was walking back from the shop, she was going away somewhere so I ran back to the house to watch it. Ended up watching the match in disbelief, couldn't comprehend what had happened.
RIP to all. Hopefully I'll never have to see anything like it, Bradford or Hillsborough ever again.

DARK-KNIGHT

DARK-KNIGHT wrote: »

Just like hillsborough the victims never really got justice well until now with hillsborough and they deserved the justice they finally got this year.

But the 39 juve fans were never truly justified and i hope they eventually do get justice the sentences handed out were a joke... 39 deaths just let that sink in..

Once again i hope their families find peace

I'm not sure they were a joke. You could hardly get less of an apologist for LFC fan behaviour than me, I don't like the attempt to whitewash Liverpool fans as a whole, they were primarily responsible for the deaths that night for all the protests about the stadium, ticketing, the police etc. (I recall even an attempt to blame fans of other English clubs for joining in with Liverpool fans and causing the riot). Many Liverpool fans were charged with manslaughter and rightly paid a penalty, many were jailed. But they were part of a crowd mentality, they acted as part of a mob, I think it's hard to imagine that when they charged into the Juve fans, they knew that 39 would die. Not that ignorance of the consequences is a complete defence when one participates in a criminal act. But there is something to be said about studies of crowd behaviour, you become slightly stripped of critical analysis, you join with your fellow fans, you become desensitised to a certain extent, jump to conclusions. I have stood on terraces and watched fans fight and got caught up in it, you hear rumours about what the other teams fans have done (was it Euro 88 or Italia 90 when many Irish fans believed that English fans had lynched an Irishman?). You move with the crowd when it surges...it's all a bit strange and something that you can't explain later when analysing it.