More job losses

manor

Great post.

spankmemunkey

Hijpo wrote: »

i take exception to that statement

They are skilled jobs that require a lot of training and the employees must adhere to strict quality compliance due to it being a medical devices manufacturer. They are not assembling two peice jig saws.

Bigger picture, its over one thousand people in the city with 20% less disposable income.

To be fair im not having a personal pop at anybody its just economics. I worked for pharmaceutical companies and we werent getting 18 euros an hour coming off the streets with no training. We were trained up and adhered to strict bma records and sop's and the max was and still is 12 euros or so after several appraisals and time served. At the end of the day most places that hire staff have to train them but they dont get 18 euro an hour! Skilled tradesmen dont get 18:euros an hour

mcko

I was speaking in general not this case, Waterford seems to be forgotten when it comes to investment.
Again people complain about inflexible workforce, why should people not standup for their rights.
Working men and women fought hard to get the working conditions we expect and it is all being eroded.
I have 2 children and they will never see a job like mine good pay and conditions, sick pay for 26 weeks, share scheme, defined benefit pension and free health insurance.
It's a race to the bottom and people are all saying you should be lucky to have a job,and if working people fight for their rights they are wrong.

Sully

Government are investing in B&L after the restructuring. Presumably to make solid the plant and prevent further redundancies.

Thomas D

mcko wrote: »

I was speaking in general not this case, Waterford seems to be forgotten when it comes to investment.
Again people complain about inflexible workforce, why should people not standup for their rights.
Working men and women fought hard to get the working conditions we expect and it is all being eroded.
I have 2 children and they will never see a job like mine good pay and conditions, sick pay for 26 weeks, share scheme, defined benefit pension and free health insurance.
It's a race to the bottom and people are all saying you should be lucky to have a job,and if working people fight for their rights they are wrong.

Welcome to globalisation. This is the reality and the 20th century union attitudes will make unions redundant because there will be no jobs.

Cities and workers have to see themselves as products on a global marketplace. Drop the entitlement because the world doesn't owe Waterford a living no more than some city in the Philippines.

mcko

Goodman, keep shopping on Sundays where staff get flat time.Just rollover.

fricatus

mcko wrote: »

Goodman, keep shopping on Sundays where staff get flat time.Just rollover.

I'm in two minds about this statement. Certainly I don't like the idea of people working Sundays and not getting premium time. For me, it's a day for family.

But then, if they're working five days a week, should they get anything extra for working Sundays? They have the convenience (which I don't have) of getting say Monday and Tuesday off, and can therefore go to the bank, optician, doctor's, credit union, etc. - all things which I have to take time off to do.

If we all decided not to shop on Sundays, retailers wouldn't offer Sunday opening (Tesco stopped 24/7 opening in loads of shops around Ireland as there wasn't demand for it). It seems to be popular though. You and I might do our little protest, but what use is that if nobody else does?

Equally, if you or I turn our noses up at the flat rate, then in a city with 19% unemployment, someone else will be glad of that job and will do it instead of you. If you can get better pay elsewhere, then hand in your notice and good luck to you!

The only solution is via politics: ban Sunday opening. You can imagine the howls of protest from the major retailers at that one. Small retailers might be happy though, because then they could compete on a more level playing field.

Thomas D

You can't fight the free market. You can't force international companies to come here and force them to give certain wages and benefits.

If he staff don't like it then get a job elsewhere. Of my employer started to take the piss id go elsewhere. My old employer wasnt paying me enough so I left. The joys of the free market.

mooseknunkle

spankmemunkey wrote: »

To be fair im not having a personal pop at anybody its just economics. I worked for pharmaceutical companies and we werent getting 18 euros an hour coming off the streets with no training. We were trained up and adhered to strict bma records and sop's and the max was and still is 12 euros or so after several appraisals and time served. At the end of the day most places that hire staff have to train them but they dont get 18 euro an hour! Skilled tradesmen dont get 18:euros an hour

I work in B&L now and i didnt walk in off the street as you say and either did the other 1100 people,we have a very strict training program from your first week and its on going all through your employment.

Bausch & Lomb has been in Waterford for over 30 years do you really think they would have been here that long if the workers weren't trained at there jobs,you've no idea what your talking about.

mooseknunkle

mozattack wrote: »

I heard about this in February - such a surprise, not.

How did you hear about it back in February?

lewisdhead

Originally Posted by mozattack View Post
I heard about this in February - such a surprise, not.


Troll got second thoughts???? Delete. delete, delete.

spankmemunkey

mooseknunkle wrote: »

I work in B&L now and i didnt walk in off the street as you say and either did the other 1100 people,we have a very strict training program from your first week and its on going all through your employment.

Bausch & Lomb has been in Waterford for over 30 years do you really think they would have been here that long if the workers weren't trained at there jobs,you've no idea what your talking about.

in not making it personal or a personal attack on you sorry if u feel that i was and it is an upsetting time for you, my point is that most factory's be it pharma or plastic shelving the workers all have to be trained but they dont get the same wages. What i mean is if u were lucky to get a start in BanL u may not have any specifc skills to start with to begin in production i dont think u needed a degree say to start in production abd everybody knew that BanL were one of the best payers in the country for peoole who were unskilled before they started the job. High paying factory jobs are a thing of the past.

Wanderer2010

fricatus wrote: »

It's hardly the councillors' fault now, is it? They have fcukall power. If people want to protest, let them do it outside Leinster House or Richard Bruton's department.

Then what is the purpose of our councillors then? Why do we even elect them if they have no power and can do nothing to help us. For the record I voted independent and not because I think they can storm the Dail and demand change for industry and create jobs, no, its because Im sick of all the usual drivel spouted by all our local councillors coming up to election time when all they want is another easy few years to lay back and do nothing. We need people to represent us and state our case to the big government parties not wasters who sit back and have a very very cushy life with little to no action..

fricatus

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

Then what is the purpose of our councillors then? Why do we even elect them if they have no power and can do nothing to help us.

They have no power over something like this. The areas where they do have power is in stuff like commercial rates, planning, social housing, libraries, roads, footpaths, parks and museums.

The issues here are to do with the IDA, industrial support, tax policy, and things like the resourcing of WIT and whether it should become a university. These are national issues, and if you've something to say about these, you should contact your TD. Similarly if you're going to mount a protest, Leinster House is the place.

Hoffmans

Is it any coincidence they make a 49 million bid for allergen last week then try to save 20 million down here a few days later, botox is obviously more important to the valaient board crusties than peoples jobs!

Hijpo

Sully wrote: »

Widely reported it's the SME's that will get us back on our feet tbh.

Not likely, between rates and rent and setting up in an area where people are continuely being forced to prioritise their diminishing disposable income on essentials there will be nothing to support them and make a small business viable not to mention the welfare aspect of being self employed.

Max Powers

Hoffmans wrote: »

Is it any coincidence they make a 49 million bid for allergen last week then try to save 20 million down here a few days later, botox is obviously more important to the valaient board crusties than peoples jobs!

of course, bit naive if you thought otherwise

JPA

Hoffmans wrote: »

Is it any coincidence they make a 49 million bid for allergen last week then try to save 20 million down here a few days later, botox is obviously more important to the valaient board crusties than peoples jobs!

49 BILLION!

Digital Society

How could a workforce of 1100 with an average of 40k even last this long? This is just the start of the end.

Reality is that factory workers are being replaced by software and menial jobs are being filled by eastern Europeans.

Out go the overpaid workers who only work 8 hours per day and in come the machines that go 24/7 and don't walk around as if their better than people from other places. Get your kids out of this place while you can. You think its bad for you now. Wait till your kids grow up.

Hijpo

Digital Society wrote: »

How could a workforce of 1100 with an average of 40k even last this long? This is just the start of the end.

Reality is that factory workers are being replaced by software and menial jobs are being filled by eastern Europeans.

Out go the overpaid workers who only work 8 hours per day and in come the machines that go 24/7 and don't walk around as if their better than people from other places. Get your kids out of this place while you can. You think its bad for you now. Wait till your kids grow up.

It lasted this long because the plant was making enough of a profit for Warburg Pincus... its still making a profit just not enough of a profit for Valeant. They are the only plant in Valeant’s group that have a licence to sell a certain type of lens to the Japanese market.

A lot of speculation going on, one theory floating around is that they are gearing up for continental shifts as the 140 operators to go is around about the same number as operators on weekend shifts so by going continental they won’t need a weekend shift.

Other theory is that they want to make as much money as possible to increase the offer they put forward for this botox crowed they have been trying to buy. Seems Valeant have bought 6 or 8 plants over the last while and sold off 4 of them to create funding to up the price being offered for the botox business. Why would they buy and close a plant at could be a massive cost only to branch into a different market where lenses have no bearing instead of selling it to someone else?

Chances of the TEEU accepting a pay cut out there is slim to none so i would imagine the only road Valeant have to go down is closing the place as they said before, but when questioned what their plan was for winding up the plant they said they didn’t have one. Going by this people think B&L is being used as a tester to see how easy it would be for every other American company in Ireland to rock up with the same gun and cut their costs.

Either way this cannot end well.
A 20% wage cut for engineers, quality assurance staff and experienced managers etc. means that over time they will more than likely move on to places that will improve on the 20% reduction which will decrease the level of expertise in key areas of the plant.
The level of sales has not decreased, 140 less operators means alot more work for those that are left. I can’t see anyone willing to do significantly more work for significantly less pay and if they do then it certainly won’t be maintained to the standard they achieve at present.

fiachr_a

What the unions should do is vote for a 40% pay cut and keep those 200 jobs. That would be more beneficial for Waterford than the whole factory closing in a few years.

Hijpo

fiachr_a wrote: »

What the unions should do is vote for a 40% pay cut and keep those 200 jobs. That would be more beneficial for Waterford than the whole factory closing in a few years.

Surely to god your trolling, how will peope pay the mortgages interest hikes, USC increases, property taxes and water charges?

It was hard enough when they were just implimenting more expenses for people while wages are staying the same, now you want to cut pay by 40% while increasing expenses?

Finnbar01

How on earth are wages 30% lower in New York than here in Waterford?

Hijpo

Finnbar01 wrote: »

How on earth are wages 30% lower in New York than here in Waterford?

Is it that each wage is 30% less or is it that the collective wage bill is 30% less?
I would be interested to know how similar the plants are in scale. Is it even possible to make the large waterford plant competetive to the same level as a much smaller rochester plant for example.
If the waterford plant is 30% larger than the rochester one surely the operating costs are going to be 30% larger?

Finnbar01

Hijpo wrote: »

Is it that each wage is 30% less or is it that the collective wage bill is 30% less?
I would be interested to know how similar the plants are in scale. Is it even possible to make the large waterford plant competetive to the same level as a much smaller rochester plant for example.
If the waterford plant is 30% larger than the rochester one surely the operating costs are going to be 30% larger?

They are some very good questions but I don't know the answers though.

I wonder has the shale gas 'revolution' (cheaper energy costs) got anything to do with it?

spankmemunkey

Digital Society wrote: »

How could a workforce of 1100 with an average of 40k even last this long? This is just the start of the end.

Reality is that factory workers are being replaced by software and menial jobs are being filled by eastern Europeans.

Out go the overpaid workers who only work 8 hours per day and in come the machines that go 24/7 and don't walk around as if their better than people from other places. Get your kids out of this place while you can. You think its bad for you now. Wait till your kids grow up.

I agree, I mean i think the trend for most of these big companies is to move production to a cheaper country which they will do, they bought the company cos they want to move it to China or India most likely

Hijpo

Correct me if im wrong but i think if they move production out of Ireland they loose the entire Jap market as the waterford plant is the only one licenced to sell lenses to the Japanese, they wont even accept the same lens from the Rochester plant.

JPA

Finnbar01 wrote: »

How on earth are wages 30% lower in New York than here in Waterford?

It's Rochester, new York not exactly manhatten.
Comparing wages by Valeant is simply stupidity, just an excuse.

Digital Society

Hijpo wrote: »

Surely to god your trolling, how will peope pay the mortgages interest hikes, USC increases, property taxes and water charges?

It was hard enough when they were just implimenting more expenses for people while wages are staying the same, now you want to cut pay by 40% while increasing expenses?

40k minus 20% is still far more than most have to pay their mortgages.

Plenty of people on less than half that actually. Also i assume most people their are fairly old and a lot will even have their houses paid for. Someone who worked their commented on how old the average age is.

If you try get sympathy for a wage cut like that around here not many people will listen. Other people have been through far worse.

sparkling sea

Digital Society wrote: »

40k minus 20% is still far more than most have to pay their mortgages.

Plenty of people on less than half that actually. Also i assume most people their are fairly old and a lot will even have their houses paid for. Someone who worked their commented on how old the average age is.

If you try get sympathy for a wage cut like that around here not many people will listen. Other people have been through far worse.

I know alot of people in B and L traded up in the boom so I wouldn't assume that they have small mortgages just because they are older, in fact they could be worse off than you think.

Productivity at the Rochester plant versus Waterford plant should be looked into, no one can get an overall picture without weighting up every aspect and not just one:( I wouldn't rely on Siptu to look into this if I worked there either, people working in the factory might be better off doing the hard lifting with regard to facts and figures themselves.