Allergic to Potato Rice, Wheat and Soya Beans

Live at Three

Hi
I have discovered that my dog (5 year old King Charles) is allergic to wheat, potato, rice and soya beans. Would you anyone have any suggestions for a type of food ie. a dog nut, that doesn't contain any of these?

I have gone through a lot of different bags in Maxi Zoo but they all contain one of these. One I found said 'cereals' in the ingredients so I guess wheat is in there

He is fine with all meats so i was also wondering if it is economically viable to get
fish or meat from the butcher for feeding the dog? Someone suggested fish heads but I don't really want to bring those into my house!

Thanks in advance

Nody

Orijen works on at least three versions (Ocean, Regional Red and Adult) yes Raw is definitively possible at a reasonable cost. The key thing is not to think in terms of buying stakes but rather heart, carcasses etc. which are much cheaper.

tk123

If you go with kibble you'll have to go with one of the more expensive ones like Orijen, Taste of the Wild etc so in that respect you'll definitely save money with a home prepared diet. If you have freezer space you can buy in bulk and will save even more. I mainly feed duck necks - I'm lazy now and get them in 5kg bags @ €8 but, 5kgs of duck mince is €10. Another option would be to check out butchers who do deals/offers- e.g. I got to one that does 5 trays out a of big range for €20 - that would get you get 25 chicken legs which would feed your little dog for a month! (I have 2 retrievers ) If you don't want to raw feed you can always boil the chicken and just remove the bones etc. Quinoa would be a good option too if you want to add carbs because it's a plant not a cereal

Nody

tk123 wrote: »

If you go with kibble you'll have to go with one of the more expensive ones like Orijen, Taste of the Wild etc

Actually TotW don't work, got potato or potato starch, same with Acana, Applaws etc. of the other top line brands which was part of my original recommendation until I went looking them up.

tk123

Nody wrote: »

Actually TotW don't work, got potato or potato starch, same with Acana, Applaws etc. of the other top line brands which was part of my original recommendation until I went looking them up.

There's a new TOTW on zooplus that might be ok - Southwest Canyon

Ingredients:
Beef, peas, chickpeas, lamb meal, rapeseed oil, egg product, wild boar, ocean fish meal, brewer's yeast, tomato pomace, flaxseed, natural flavour, salt, choline chloride, dried chicory root, tomatoes, blueberries, raspberries, yucca schidigera extract, dried enterococcus faecium fermentation product, dried lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, dried lactobacillus casei fermentation product, dried lactobacillus plantarum fermentation product, dried trichoderma longibrachiatum fermentation extract, vitamin E supplement, iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, ferrous sulphate, zinc sulphate, copper sulphate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate (vitamin B1), manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, biotin, niacin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, sodium selenite, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin (vitamin B2), vitamin D supplement, folic acid

DBB

OP, you haven't much option but to steer clear of dry foods, but feeding raw or high-quality tinned food, or even a mix of both, will be really cheap for a Cavalier-sized dog!
Slaney pet foods do frozen meat complete with ground-up bones in handy little half-kilo packs, one box of which fits into a freezer drawer.
Zooplus.ie have a great range of great quality, high-meat tinned foods, the best value cereal- and spud-free brand is Rocco.
I'd go down either or both routes, and forget about dry food completely :-)

maggiepip

The new "Rocco Real Hearts" is fantastic. Its got lots of whole chicken hearts in it mixed with either chicken or beef. Best value is to get it from the german site zooplus.de (the voucher code is sammelbesteller)

DBB

maggiepip wrote: »

The new "Rocco Real Hearts" is fantastic. Its got lots of whole chicken hearts in it mixed with either chicken or beef.

+1
The hearty ones are the Rocco of choice amongst the discerning canine clientele here too!

aonb

OP, if you dont want to do raw (Im squeamish about meat) another option is home-cooked, I have been feeding my dogs home cooked food and they thrive on it. YOu can buy chicken thighs cheaply, boil them up in water, remove the bones, chop up the meat, add cooked quinoa for bulk or chickpeas (tin for approx 59c in Lidl or Tesco) - just mash them or chop finely, add a bit of mashed/chopped cooked carrot or green beans or peas. Add the water the chicken was cooked in to make it all soupy and moist. You can cook up enough to last the week, or freeze in tubs.
You can vary the diet by cooking up some beef or liver or fish (bags of frozen white fish fillets in Tesco for less than E3) and add different veg. You will find what veg your dog likes/doesnt like. Experiment. He will do great on the healthier option, raw or homecooked are usually better than mass-produced kibble/tins - and it works out very economical

DBB

I oscillate between raw, good-quality tinned, and the dogs' very, very favourite... Home cooked! I like throwing in some tinned purely in the hope that the manufacturers have thought of important ingredients that I haven't!
Most raw- and home-cooking vets and nutritionists I know add various supplements to their own dogs' diets, as they've explained to me to "fill any gaps" that the straightforward diet might miss out on.
Nevertheless, home cooked is the bizz, and whilst not as easy with big dogs due to having to cook up a stew more often, a great option for smaller pooches.

aonb

OP, dont forget to add a raw bone a couple of times a week too, for the calcium. Tinned fish is a great one for convenience too. If you dog likes fish (mine love it) - watch out for tins of salmon/tuna/mackeral on sale - handy for an emergency - I bulk it up with some grains - in your case a bit of a short list I know... what about lentils (green or orange or yellow - dried - in supermarket, very cheap) or Barley (again pearl barley in supermarket less than E1, my dogs like it) easy to 'boil' up in the home-cooked 'stew', or boil seperately and add to anything

I have the fondest memory is my elderly uncle with his little gas ring in his shed, with an enormous old suacepan sitting on top, Into this 'soup' for his greyhounds, he would have whatever meat he had got cheap at the butcher, onions, potatos, peas, carrots, barley, bones, lentils. The smell!! Then he would ladle out portions for each dog, into which he would crumble the home made brown soda bread. We kids would have eaten a bowl if he handed it up to us, but we were less deserving than his beloved greys!!

Live at Three

Thanks a lot everyone, great advice there. He doesn't even like the dry stuff, he would usually walk away from a bowl of nuts. He loves tins of fish and meat though, also he will eat a slice of apple or carrot. He's allowed eat oats which is great cause I can give him a bowl of porridge along with mine every morning.

Whatever about the cost of the food, it can't be as bad as the Atopica tablets he's on at the moment, 1 every day and they're €50 for 15!!

He's in a bad way when he starts scratching, he'll keep at it until his belly is raw, so hopefully we can make some progress now with the results of the allergy test.

tk123

Dunnes have 3 chickens for €10 atm so might be a good cheap option to see how you'd get on. You could either portion it up and feed it raw or if you're going to cook it I'd recommend getting a cheap slow cooker - throw in some veg, mug of water and the whole chicken breast side down, after a few hours strip the meat from the bone (it'll fall off) and done!

boomerang

One more idea for you, maybe while easing yourself into home-cooking or waiting on an order of Rocco... Royal Canin do a "sensitivity control" kibble with tapioca as the carb source.. It's expensive though - over €80 for a 12kg bag!

DBB

Has your dog been diagnosed with Atopy op? Has the vet tried the usual treatments before putting your dog on Atopica (usually steroids called Prednisone)? How about medicated shampoo?
Oily fish is particularly good for Atopy, as it contains immunity-balancing ingredients, and stuff that's great for healthy cell growth.

Live at Three

Yes DBB we've been to a few different vets, he has been diagnosed with atopy. We do occasionally put him on a course of steroids when he gets really bad, such as now, but these can't be used long-term. We have used medicated shampoo, apple cider vinegar, oat shampoo etc but these external remedies don't really help the internal problem.

We only have him 6 months and we only have the results of his allergy test a few days so at least now we know what is causing it. At least we can control food, if it was dust mites or pollen we wouldn't have a hope.

He'll be eating a lot of oily fish from now on anyway so hopefully the health benefits you mention along with avoiding the triggers will make a difference.

DBB

Ah, good to see he has an official diagnosis. Atopica is very good, very effective but yes, bloody expensive! And good that the triggers are controllable factors too.
It's unusual enough, I think, for Cavaliers to develop the condition, isn't it?
Having dealt with a fair few atopic dogs in my time, some owners have reported that "Dermacton" spray (it's a herbal spray) helps relieve the itch on the outside... The vet might also consider Cortavance spray (steroidal) as it is good at taking the itch out of an itchy spot. Atopic dogs will often have itchy spots even when they're on the mend, damaging the healing skin, so it can be useful to stop the itch artificially before damage is done. Some owners also protect the healing skin by sticking a Babygro on the dog :-D

aonb

Great that you have a specific diagnosis, and great that its a food allergy which as you say is easier to do something about (as opposed to mites or pollen). At 5 yrs old, has he always had this problem, or recently become an issue?? I believe there are negative issues with Atopicia - because its an immune system depressant - krill oil is supposed to be beneficial. If its a food allergy, and you remove the irritants, can you stop the Atopicia? Assume you have had this discussion with your vet - we looked at this whole issue with one of our dogs - thankfully it was a food allergy with him too, didnt want to do Atopicia, so between coconut oil, krill and cutting out allergens with home cooked only, his itching is really minimal (and mostly gone)

Poor dog, the misery of itching. Hope you get him sorted out. Good luck with the new food regime
(p.s. my dog always hated kibble (and hes food obsessed) its like he knew the cereal content would cause him trouble!)

Live at Three

We had a t-shirt on him at one stage, made no difference whatsoever...we also made 'boots' for him but they were just ridiculous!

I don't really know if it's unusual for the cavaliers, and with regard to atopica being effective, he still scratches away even when on it, so I wouldn't like to see him without it. The vets say that he's just extremely sensitive. Maybe now with the change in diet we can wean him off the atopica a little bit.

Yeah we might look into the spray, as you say he would scratch anyway even if he was on the mend. I'd say after a life of scratching he's doing it as much out of habit as anything else, we have to keep an eye on him when he goes outside as he will scrape his belly off the concrete path...it must be driving him mad!

Thanks for the tips, we will look into the sprays

Live at Three

Aonb, we got him from a rescue home and he's had several owners, so i guess nobody really followed through with the problem. We're the first ones to give him an allergy test.

The vets say that there is no cure for atopy, he will always be slightly itchy, so all we can do is manage it. We hope to wean him off atopica, and if the diet works well maybe get him off it altogether

DBB

No, atopy is not curable, it's an autoimmune disease, usually kicks in from about a year old but I've seen very young pups with it too.
As a general rule, if the Atopica works, it should have encouraged significant healing by 6 weeks of daily treatment. If so, then the process of scaling it back gradually starts, with the dog being dosed every second day. If he continues to improve, then it goes out to every 3 days, and so on.
There's a fair bit of variation between individuals, but ultimately quite a few owners can get their dogs down to two, perhaps even one Atopica per week,and I know some owners who can take their dogs off it altogether, only giving it at the first sign of flare-ups.
Will keep everything crossed that the new diet kicks in for your little fella op, fair play to you for adopting him. Atopic dogs are very difficult to rehome!

Live at Three

Thanks I'll let you know how the new diet works out.

aonb

Live at Three wrote: »

Aonb, we got him from a rescue home and he's had several owners, so i guess nobody really followed through with the problem. We're the first ones to give him an allergy test.

The vets say that there is no cure for atopy, he will always be slightly itchy, so all we can do is manage it. We hope to wean him off atopica, and if the diet works well maybe get him off it altogether

Wow, poor little dog. WELL DONE for giving him a chance of some relief. It would be fantastic (for you and him) if the diet was enough to give him significant relief. My dog has one specific spot that is still a little itchy (flares up a little bit now and then) but I put a dab of cortisone cream on to soothe it

I do believe that the itch/scratching can be a bit of a habit too - our fella used to enjoy us itching his hard to get at area, and the fuss of the cream too

Give the Atopicia time to kick in, and definately give the new diet time - it'll take several weeks to see some improvement/benefits. I have heard v.good things about the Dermacton spray DBB mentioned.
(look at Coconut oil too - I know Atopy is 'outside' allergens problem while Coconut oil is ingested but its supposed to help the dogs immune system - maybe check with your vet that its ok while on the meds:

http://wellnessmama.com/13700/benefits-coconut-oil-pets/

http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/the-health-benefits-of-coconut-oil/

muddypaws

Live at Three wrote: »

We only have him 6 months and we only have the results of his allergy test a few days so at least now we know what is causing it. At least we can control food, if it was dust mites or pollen we wouldn't have a hope.

OP, I recently attended a seminar given by a vet dermatologist, and she was very clear that there are no reliable laboratory tests for food allergy in dogs, she emphasised the point a couple of times, so can I ask what allergy test you have had the results of? She said that the only way to get a definitive way to find out which food a dog is allergic to is by an elimination diet that has to be fed exclusively for 6-8 weeks, which can be very difficult in the real world, as even if a dog is off lead for a walk, it may pick something up and eat it, which can obviously have an effect on the results, or could grab a bit of food that is dropped in the home - not impossible to do, but difficult. There then has to be a relapse when the original food is re-introduced, to ensure that it is the food that is causing the issues.

The vet is Sarah Warren, she's UK based, but I'm sure there must be a vet here that would be a dermatological expert.

lorebringer

Royal Canin Sensitivity Control is brilliant - it doesn't contain any of the problem ingredients for your dog and is great for skin and/or stomach issues. I don't usually like RC as a brand but that food is amazing, I highly recommend it. It is expensive but well worth it.

Live at Three

Muddypaws

The test we did was from a blood test. when we got the allergen result list I did ask if there was a possibility of false positives or negatives she seemed happy that these results were accurate. A few months back a different vet told me about an allergy test where you bring the dog to the lab and they inject different things under the skin, this was expensive and also not 100% reliable.

Interesting that you should mention a conference, a vet we were talking to said he was at a conference recently and they mentioned that there was a new drug coming on the market that could be better and cheaper than atopica.

muddypaws

From what I understand from the dermatologist, environmental allergies can be tested for (like with people) with skin tests, blood tests etc, but not food. She was also saying that food allergies go alongside environmental allergies, so in a lot of cases, the dog will be allergic to something as well as the food - fingers and paws crossed its not the case with your dog.

I wonder if a dog is allergic to something like grain, whether it would also react to meat from an animal that was fed that? I guess it would depend how severe the allergy is.

boomerang

Live at Three wrote: »

Interesting that you should mention a conference, a vet we were talking to said he was at a conference recently and they mentioned that there was a new drug coming on the market that could be better and cheaper than atopica.

Apoquel

Live at Three

Boomerang..

...I knew you'd come back.

boomerang

Live at Three wrote: »

Boomerang..

...I knew you'd come back.