Mass unmarked grave for 800 babies in Tuam

bumper234

mrsbyrne wrote: »

I've no idea. I'm sure all will be revealed after the investigation. Out of respect for any surviving family members I think it would be cruel offensive and distatsefull to speculate.

Do you think they may be speculating the same thing? I know if my child died and was dumped in a pit with hundreds of others and there was no record of what they died of or how they came to be tossed into pit then i would be speculating the hell out of it.

Czarcasm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Yes, the Gardaí should have arrested the nuns, the DPP should have prosecuted them, the Government should have seized their assets, and provided for the imprisoned women and children...

The Gardaí at the time Zub colluded with the nuns, as did the DPP, and the Government, and the civil servants of the State, and even the families of these women and children themselves supported the workhouses and laundries, so they were hardly going to have a word said against them!

I think it's worth noting too that the last laundry/asylum only closed in 1996.

Nodin

Czarcasm wrote: »

The Gardaí at the time Zub colluded with the nuns, as did the DPP, and the Government, and the civil servants of the State, and even the families of these women and children themselves supported the workhouses and laundries, so they were hardly going to have a word said against them!

I think it's worth noting too that the last laundry/asylum only closed in 1996.

Yes, because if you tried to stand up to the church, they'd just say sorry and do the right thing.

"A couple of days later I had a visit in Dublin from the nuns' man of affairs and he was followed by the Dean of Cork, Monsignor Sexton, and finally the Bishop of Cork complained to the Papal Nuncio who went to see Devalera"
http://goldenbridgeinmate39.wordpress.com/2013/08/21/bessborough-house-co-cork/

shruikan2553

mrsbyrne wrote: »

I've no idea. I'm sure all will be revealed after the investigation. Out of respect for any surviving family members I think it would be cruel offensive and distatsefull to speculate.

You do realise that when investigating a crime lots of speculation is done right? Here we have a place containing children with reported deaths but no reports of where these children where buried. Where did the bodies go? We just happen to come across a mass unmarked grave on the premises. These didnt get here on their own so how did they get there?

So what we have is known dead children but not where they were buried and a mass grave of children on the same site. Who would have put these bodies there? Did they grow out of the ground? Did the locals secretly put their children here? Is it all and atheist ethnic cleansing conspiracy? Did the nuns put them there?

Any other ideas? Considering the track record of nuns and children in this country it is very probable it was the nuns. Which part of this is the "wild" part?

mrsbyrne

Dades wrote: »

I've been following this thread. The usage of "FYP" is an Internet discussion norm. It's not everyone's cup of tea, and overuse is frowned upon. But single usage such as in this thread is not breaking any rules.

The inclusion of the term "FYP" lets people know that your quote has been edited, so it doesn't change your original post in any way.

I'm only seeing this reply now. Fair enough. I still think in this context it was cheap point scoring , but we'll leave it at that. Thanks for the prompt reply.

mrsbyrne

SeaDaily wrote: »

Nope. The first question asked "why", the second asked "who".

I would be giving you the same reply to Who What Where or Why or When. I don't know, neither do you.

Terrlock

It really sickens be to the core the amount of evil acts like this that have occurred in our country only to be covered up and not investigated, and when they are brought to light no through apologies are given, just excuses of why they happened.

This really needs thorough investigation, we need to know what happened, why it happened and what have been done to stop this from ever happening again.

Even if the people who committed this most evil act are passed on at this stage the organisation of the Catholic Church must be brought to justice, if it has any wrong doing on it's part.

I don't get why people here though associate the Catholic Church with Christianity, if anything it's anti Christianity, it's just another Cult that was given way to much power over the people and abused that power.

They enslaved people for their so called sins, the made people feel that they were bad people and needed to pay for their sins true cruel punishment and all for the greed of money and power.

The truth should come out and Justice needs to be done for all those lives that were lost to their cruel deeds.

I don't know why people conclude from one organisation's evil acts that this is proof there is no God.

If anything it's proof of how willing people are to be ruled by evil, how we give evil control over our lives and how Governments stand by while there citizens are under control.

Jesus came to show people how to live free from sin and free from evil. He did not condemn the prostitute when the people brought her to him to be stoned to death, in fact he did the opposite he set her free.

True Christianity is about how we can break free from evil and not live our lives as slaves.

I pray that Justice will be done, for all those lives lost and the people that suffered from these cruel acts.

smokingman

mrsbyrne wrote: »

I've just answered that question. Its the post right above yours.

Are you really that wilfully ignorant that you don't think the people running the place were responsible? Really? Are you seriously trying to say that with a straight face? Are you really, honestly trying to say that?

bumper234

iguana wrote: »

Less than 4 hours since it went live and we've passed 250 signatures on the petition. Hopefully it will gain momentum and we'll meet the initial goal of 2000 tomorrow. Once we achieve that number I'm going to start sending the link to TDs.

Could you post the Link to the petition please.

Czarcasm

SeaDaily wrote: »

Chill out there now, no need to resort to swearing.

I apologize for that. Civility and tolerance are in short supply when you inaccurately infer that I support the repugnant actions of reprehensible human beings as if I think they are in any way representative of anything the RCC represents.

SeaDaily wrote: »

I never once referred to you at any point btw.

You did, only your inference was inaccurate -

SeaDaily wrote: »

If you feel the church did not have a part to play in this then that's okay, but I simply disagree.

mrsbyrne

Nodin wrote: »

And ive provided more insight into the conditions in such homes in the period. Care to comment now?

You seem to be confusing an article you lifted from the well known left wing liberal website journal.is with proven facts relating to this tragedy in Tuam. So, no, I've nothing further to add except to reiterate that unfounded allegations of criminality are hurtfull to surviving family members.

shruikan2553

mrsbyrne wrote: »

You seem to be confusing an article you lifted from the well known left wing liberal website journal.is with proven facts relating to this tragedy in Tuam. So, no, I've nothing further to add except to reiterate that unfounded allegations of criminality are hurtfull to surviving family members.

Do you have evidence they find these comments hurtful or are you just speculating?

bumper234

Terrlock wrote: »

It really sickens be to the core the amount of evil acts like this that have occurred in our country only to be covered up and not investigated, and when they are brought to light no through apologies are given, just excuses of why they happened.

This really needs thorough investigation, we need to know what happened, why it happened and what have been done to stop this from ever happening again.

Even if the people who committed this most evil act are passed on at this stage the organisation of the Catholic Church must be brought to justice, if it has any wrong doing on it's part.

I don't get why people here though associate the Catholic Church with Christianity, if anything it's anti Christianity, it's just another Cult that was given way to much power over the people and abused that power.

They enslaved people for their so called sins, the made people feel that they were bad people and needed to pay for their sins true cruel punishment and all for the greed of money and power.

The truth should come out and Justice needs to be done for all those lives that were lost to their cruel deeds.

I don't know why people conclude from one organisation's evil acts that this is proof there is no God.

If anything it's proof of how willing people are to be ruled by evil, how we give evil control over our lives and how Governments stand by while there citizens are under control.

Jesus came to show people how to live free from sin and free from evil. He did not condemn the prostitute when the people brought her to him to be stoned to death, in fact he did the opposite he set her free.

True Christianity is about how we can break free from evil and not live our lives as slaves.

I pray that Justice will be done, for all those lives lost and the people that suffered from these cruel acts.

If your "god" allows this kind of evil to exist and allow his so called representatives on Earth to carry out these acts then i will happily denounce it from every rooftop.

Nodin

mrsbyrne wrote: »

You seem to be confusing an article you lifted from the well known left wing liberal website journal.is with proven facts relating to this tragedy in Tuam. So, no, I've nothing further to add except to reiterate that unfounded allegations of criminality are hurtfull to surviving family members.

Are you stating that |Bessborough house and the others did not have high mortality rates?

Are you saying that Dr Neenys account is false?

mrsbyrne

smokingman wrote: »

Are you really that wilfully ignorant that you don't think the people running the place were responsible? Really? Are you seriously trying to say that with a straight face? Are you really, honestly trying to say that?

I think that what's wilfully ignorant is to continue speculating slanderously about an uninvestigated tragedy, when its clear that this speculation would be distressing for any surviving family members. Why do you think the mainstream media are taking a softly softly approach?

iguana

bumper234 wrote: »

Could you post the Link to the petition please.

Here you go;

https://secure.avaaz.org/en/petition/Frances_Fitzgerald_Irish_Minister_for_Justice_and_Equality_A_full_Gardai_investigation_into_the_mass_grave_in_Tuam_Co_Ga/

Can people who sign it also share it through their social networks. It's picking up momentum now (nearly 400) and the faster it's shared the more signatures it will get.

mrsbyrne

Nodin wrote: »

Are you stating that |Bessborough house and the others did not have high mortality rates?

Are you saying that Dr Neenys account is false?

I'm saying that I fail to see what bearing these cases have on the Tuam tragedy. Taking into account that we are still totally in the dark about Tuam. As I've now said many, many times.

Nodin

mrsbyrne wrote: »

I think that what's wilfully ignorant is to continue speculating slanderously about an uninvestigated tragedy, when its clear that this speculation would be distressing for any surviving family members. Why do you think the mainstream media are taking a softly softly approach?

This account was produced by Griffith college.
http://www.indymedia.ie/attachments/jun2011/bethany_home_and_state_nm_for_min_24may11.pdf

Nodin

mrsbyrne wrote: »

I'm saying that I fail to see what bearing these cases have on the Tuam tragedy. Taking into account that we are still totally in the dark about Team. As I've now said many, many times.

The place was run concurrently with the others. It too had a massive death rate.

smokingman

mrsbyrne wrote: »

I think that what's wilfully ignorant is to continue speculating slanderously about an uninvestigated tragedy, when its clear that this speculation would be distressing for any surviving family members. Why do you think the mainstream media are taking a softly softly approach?

I guess it is true so, the studied link between religiosity and the total lack of empathy for fellow humankind.

smokingman

iguana wrote: »

Here you go;

https://secure.avaaz.org/en/petition/Frances_Fitzgerald_Irish_Minister_for_Justice_and_Equality_A_full_Gardai_investigation_into_the_mass_grave_in_Tuam_Co_Ga/

Can people who sign it also share it through their social networks. It's picking up momentum now (nearly 400) and the faster it's shared the more signatures it will get.

Signed and shared. Here's hoping it has some effect

daveohdave

iguana wrote: »

Here you go;

https://secure.avaaz.org/en/petition/Frances_Fitzgerald_Irish_Minister_for_Justice_and_Equality_A_full_Gardai_investigation_into_the_mass_grave_in_Tuam_Co_Ga/

Can people who sign it also share it through their social networks. It's picking up momentum now (nearly 400) and the faster it's shared the more signatures it will get.

Sorry, I won't sign an Avaaz petition, they're not too be trusted. Just Google the name.

Terrlock

bumper234 wrote: »

If your "god" allows this kind of evil to exist and allow his so called representatives on Earth to carry out these acts then i will happily denounce it from every rooftop.

Exactly that, who are these so called representatives.....certainly not the Catholic church. Why to people think they can possible represent anything to do with God. They have proven themselves quite the opposite in my view.

Many religions and cults claim to represent God around the world, all for money, power and control over people.

bumper234

iguana wrote: »

Here you go;

https://secure.avaaz.org/en/petition/Frances_Fitzgerald_Irish_Minister_for_Justice_and_Equality_A_full_Gardai_investigation_into_the_mass_grave_in_Tuam_Co_Ga/

Can people who sign it also share it through their social networks. It's picking up momentum now (nearly 400) and the faster it's shared the more signatures it will get.

Done and done.

Hannibal Smith

iguana wrote: »

Here you go;

https://secure.avaaz.org/en/petition/Frances_Fitzgerald_Irish_Minister_for_Justice_and_Equality_A_full_Gardai_investigation_into_the_mass_grave_in_Tuam_Co_Ga/

Can people who sign it also share it through their social networks. It's picking up momentum now (nearly 400) and the faster it's shared the more signatures it will get.

Signed and shared

Hannibal Smith

iguana wrote: »

Here you go;

https://secure.avaaz.org/en/petition/Frances_Fitzgerald_Irish_Minister_for_Justice_and_Equality_A_full_Gardai_investigation_into_the_mass_grave_in_Tuam_Co_Ga/

Can people who sign it also share it through their social networks. It's picking up momentum now (nearly 400) and the faster it's shared the more signatures it will get.

Signed and shared

mrsbyrne

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Do you have evidence they find these comments hurtful or are you just speculating?

Not speculating. Concerned. I can just try to put myself in their shoes (its called having empathy). I think that if I had given birth 50 years ago to a baby which I was later told had died, then I would have preferred to imagine that that baby had been given a decent funeral, had died of natural causes, was lying peacefully. I would be distraught if I became aware that people who knew less about it then I were alleging murder , negligence, cruelty etc. That's all.

Turtwig

Czarcasm wrote: »

Get the fcuk down off your moral high horse.

Ahh now, you can say that sentence (and your post) in far more politer tones. Please do in future.

shruikan2553

mrsbyrne wrote: »

Not speculating. Concerned. I can just try to put myself in their shoes (its called having empathy). I think that if I had given birth 50 years ago to a baby which I was later told had died, then I would have offered to imagine that that baby had been given a decent funeral, had died of natural causes, was lying peacefully. I would be distraught if I became aware that people who knew less about it then I were alleging murder , negligence, cruelty etc. That's all.

Knew less the the person who had the child? Did the women know what was happening? Did they know how their children were "buried" after dying in poor conditions created by the nuns? You would be distraught if others wanted justice for what happened to your child? It would give me some hope knowing that there was someone who cared about what happened.

Hannibal Smith

mrsbyrne wrote: »

Not speculating. Concerned. I can just try to put myself in their shoes (its called having empathy). I think that if I had given birth 50 years ago to a baby which I was later told had died, then I would have preferred to imagine that that baby had been given a decent funeral, had died of natural causes, was lying peacefully. I would be distraught if I became aware that people who knew less about it then I were alleging murder , negligence, cruelty etc. That's all.

You're speculating on people's reaction when such reaction is completely subjective. You wouldn't know how you'd feel unless you experienced it. I doubt any of the mothers give a monkeys about what strangers think. ..I would imagine they'd be more outraged that their bodies ended up in a septic tank for two kids to find purely by accident.

To try and clutch at straws like this to quieten people speaking negatively about the Catholic Church is absolutely incredible.

Flippyfloppy

mrsbyrne wrote: »

I think that what's wilfully ignorant is to continue speculating slanderously about an uninvestigated tragedy, when its clear that this speculation would be distressing for any surviving family members. Why do you think the mainstream media are taking a softly softly approach?

'

What speculation? This whole thread has been I Heart Internet and you posting thinly veiled rcc can do no wrong comments.

Aside from that, these kids families may not know what happened to them. I would imagine they want justice. Which is what this 'speculation' (look up defintion) will hopefully bring about. These children are not alone anymore. They will have people to fight for them. These nuns will not be able to remain silent and shun their victims just like they have with the Magdelene ladies, or people they seperated from their mothers/children.

mrsbyrne wrote: »

Not speculating. Concerned. I can just try to put myself in their shoes (its called having empathy). I think that if I had given birth 50 years ago to a baby which I was later told had died, then I would have preferred to imagine that that baby had been given a decent funeral, had died of natural causes, was lying peacefully. I would be distraught if I became aware that people who knew less about it then I were alleging murder , negligence, cruelty etc. That's all.

Meanwhile, other people would fight for justice. Not pretend. Pretending doesn't improve the world.

Spring Onion

iguana wrote: »

Here you go;

https://secure.avaaz.org/en/petition/Frances_Fitzgerald_Irish_Minister_for_Justice_and_Equality_A_full_Gardai_investigation_into_the_mass_grave_in_Tuam_Co_Ga/

Can people who sign it also share it through their social networks. It's picking up momentum now (nearly 400) and the faster it's shared the more signatures it will get.

Petition at 600 already. Well done Iquana.

iguana

iguana wrote: »

Ok, here's the petition. Please share it on Facebook (and even Google Plus) urging as many signatures as possible. I've set it with a current goal of 2,000 signatures but ideally would like to increase that.

https://secure.avaaz.org/en/petition/Frances_Fitzgerald_Irish_Minister_for_Justice_and_Equality_A_full_Gardai_investigation_into_the_mass_grave_in_Tuam_Co_Ga/

Shared on Facebook, Twitter and a comment in the article on the Journal.ie. Should it be in the first post of this thread? It's a bit hidden.

Czarcasm

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

Meanwhile, other people would fight for justice. Not pretend. Pretending doesn't improve the world.

Ironically Ff, pretending the most vulnerable members of society didn't exist, improved other peoples world immensely.

Out of sight, out of mind.

efb

@HisEmineminence: Like having Jackie O counselled by a sniper. “@IrishTimes: New Catholic support service for abused launched in Knock http://t.co/uHhTPQVpuh”

Lingua Franca

Also shared on facebook, and under the status of an American friend who'd linked the Washington Post article about this.

Flippyfloppy

Czarcasm wrote: »

Ironically Ff, pretending the most vulnerable members of society didn't exist, improved other peoples world immensely.

Out of sight, out of mind.

Not that that still doesn't go on today, but that's for another thread...

asteroids over berlin

completely nuts - obviously medical facilities/meds back then were limited and indeed disease(s) spread, however, their is a serious case of neglect and social exclusion towards single parents, more so mothers.

Call for "the removal of the cesspool at the back of the Children's Home" "smell intolerable" (CT, 23/01/1937) #Tuam

PIC:
http://twitter.com/Limerick1914/status/473726108664623104/photo/1

Original Twitter status: https://twitter.com/Limerick1914/status/473726108664623104

Jesus how long did the people running this home carry out this horrifying practice!?

bumper234

Sacramento wrote: »

PIC:
http://twitter.com/Limerick1914/status/473726108664623104/photo/1

Original Twitter status: https://twitter.com/Limerick1914/status/473726108664623104

Jesus how long did the people running this home carry out this horrifying practice!?

Well if you were to say on average 50 a year (a horrible amount of children to die) then you are looking at 16 years of systematic dumping of children's bodies into a cess pit. Now some may say "oh the average was 100 a year so it was only 8 years" but then is 100 dead children dumped in a cess pit for 8 years any betted?

TheChizler

Sacramento wrote: »

PIC:
http://twitter.com/Limerick1914/status/473726108664623104/photo/1

Original Twitter status: https://twitter.com/Limerick1914/status/473726108664623104

Jesus how long did the people running this home carry out this horrifying practice!?

Was this actually the tank in question or a different, public one? Cause I want to make sure my new anger is justified.

Flippyfloppy

TheChizler wrote: »

Was this actually the tank in question or a different, public one? Cause I want to make sure my new anger is justified.

Seems to me that an actual sewerage system was called for, implying it is not the grave in question.

Zubeneschamali

Czarcasm wrote: »

The Gardaí at the time Zub colluded with the nuns, as did the DPP, and the Government, and the civil servants of the State, and even the families of these women and children themselves supported the workhouses and laundries, so they were hardly going to have a word said against them!

Yes, I am agreeing with you that the state and the public were wrong.

But the state and the public did not chuck these 800 children's corpses into an unmarked pit. The Bons Secours nuns did that.

Zubeneschamali

mrsbyrne wrote: »

I think that what's wilfully ignorant is to continue speculating slanderously

800 babies and young children die in Church care and are chucked in an unmarked hole, and you are worried about someone slandering the good name of the Nuns?

Brian Shanahan

robindch wrote: »

A judgement of "murder" is handed down by a duly constituted Court of Law and not by a Galway historian, no matter how well-intentioned (s)he is and regardless of how accurate (s)he is believed to be now, and subsequently turns out to be.

I have not accused anyone of committing murder. I do not know any of the possible suspects. And you can talk about a murder being committed before anyone is found in a court of law to be guilty of said crime.

Bellatori

Firstly I want to take issue with the gross exaggeration going on. The BBC clearly report that merely "The bodies of 796 babies, toddlers and children were buried in unmarked graves in Tuam"

Secondly, whilst "Campaigners now hope to erect a sculpture and put plaques with all the children's names along the eight foot wall at the site." we now know that "it is understood that the Bon Secours Sisters, who ran the home for unmarried mothers, have donated some money to the memorial fund."

Well you can't say fairer than that AND some people "met with the Archbishop of Tuam, Dr Michael Neary, to discuss holding a memorial service for those who died."

As far as I am concerned, that draws a line under the whole thing.

Yours sincerely
Pope Franny.

shruikan2553

Bellatori wrote: »

Firstly I want to take issue with the gross exaggeration going on. The BBC clearly report that merely "The bodies of 796 babies, toddlers and children were buried in unmarked graves in Tuam"

Secondly, whilst "Campaigners now hope to erect a sculpture and put plaques with all the children's names along the eight foot wall at the site." we now know that "it is understood that the Bon Secours Sisters, who ran the home for unmarried mothers, have donated some money to the memorial fund."

Well you can't say fairer than that AND some people "met with the Archbishop of Tuam, Dr Michael Neary, to discuss holding a memorial service for those who died."

As far as I am concerned, that draws a line under the whole thing.

Yours sincerely
Pope Franny.

Some????? Sweet Science. Im not sure if I should be annoyed, the fact the dont fund the entire thing considering it was them that put them there although the fact they are doing something instead of completely ignoring it is a miracle in itself.

Bellatori

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Some????? Sweet Science. Im not sure if I should be annoyed, the fact the dont fund the entire thing considering it was them that put them there although the fact they are doing something instead of completely ignoring it is a miracle in itself.

I'm a bit concerned that you might have missed the irony and sarcasm here...

shruikan2553

Bellatori wrote: »

I'm a bit concerned that you might have missed the irony and sarcasm here...

Oh I see the sarcasm in the post but the article is real and mentions it too.

SpaceTime

This needs to be investigated forensically!

Putting up a monument is a different issue entirely.