Mass unmarked grave for 800 babies in Tuam

SeaDaily

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Mrs B asked for an example post where she defended or offered excuses for what is emerging from Tuam.

I am aware of this but I feel that quoting every post she has thus far posted in the thread would be a waste of time.

marienbad

I Heart Internet wrote: »

So where did I suggest that an unmarked burial, sans coffin was appropriate?

I would prefer to see the results of a full investigation before commenting on that .

I Heart Internet

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

Why exactly are you disagreeing with everyone anyway? You seem to want the same thing as everyone else is outraged at the lack of, an investigation.

I want an investigation and am not content to allow posters on here distribute blame in the absence of facts. Nobody even knows how many people are buried in the plot in question ffs.

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

Yet you don't seem to have written to TD's, reported to the Gardai or created a petition even.

I haven't. I have no facts on the case so it certainly wouldn;t be appropriate for me to go to the Gardai. I couldn't even find the plot on a map.

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

If anything you seem to think that there isn't anything to report.

On the contary, there is. And I'd encourage anyone here who knows anything to report it.

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

You just seem to be nit picking everything everyone you perceive to be an atheist says, which comes across that you condone the mass grave to be honest.

Where did I say I condoned the mass grave?????

Also, religious persuasion has zero to do with this. I nit pick posters who claim to know what happened in Tuam but have ZERO actual insight into what that might be.

ryan101

bumper234 wrote: »

You keep saying these children were buried there, They were not buried in any way shape or form they were DUMPED!

If they were being dumped, it raises the question why were they wrapped in a shroud and placed in a concrete tank that the public has access to ? Not a very good way to hide anything.

I Heart Internet

SeaDaily wrote: »

I am aware of this but I feel that quoting every post she has thus far posted in the thread would be a waste of time.

Post just one so. Just the one, that you think suggests that she is defending the RCC and excusing this?

Just one.

I Heart Internet

marienbad wrote: »

I would prefer to see the results of a full investigation before commenting on that .

Can you point to a post of mine where I suggested the burials were appropriate?

Flippyfloppy

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I want an investigation and am not content to allow posters on here distribute blame in the absence of facts. Nobody even knows how many people are buried in the plot in question ffs.



I haven't. I have no facts on the case so it certainly wouldn;t be appropriate for me to go to the Gardai. I couldn't even find the plot on a map.



On the contary, there is. And I'd encourage anyone here who knows anything to report it.



Where did I say I condoned the mass grave?????

Also, religious persuasion has zero to do with this. I nit pick posters who claim to know what happened in Tuam but have ZERO actual insight into what that might be.

See that's the thing. You can't dictate, or allow posters to discuss only certain aspects. That's the real reason you're here isn't it?

Aside from that you're attempting to discredit what we do know about this case, as well as the awareness that is being spread. Awareness is the only way that pressure will be put on authorities to investigate it.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. These 750+ children had noone to speak for them. So stop trying to minimise the knowledge we do have.

vibe666

ryan101 wrote: »

If they were being dumped, it raises the question why were they wrapped in a shroud and placed in a concrete tank that the public has access to ? Not a very good way to hide anything.

it had been paved over by the looks of it. seems pretty conclusive to me, although why nothing has been done in the nearly 40 years since it was discovered, i find hard to fathom.

The home was closed in the 1960s but in 1975 two boys were playing close to the site when they discovered partially broken concrete slabs covering a hollow – a disused septic tank, which had been in use prior to the 1920s when the building was a workhouse.

The boys broke the concrete and discovered a hole "filled to the brim with bones".

bumper234

ryan101 wrote: »

If they were being dumped, it raises the question why were they wrapped in a shroud and placed in a concrete tank that the public has access to ? Not a very good way to hide anything.

How do you gently lower the body of a small child into a tank that has a small opening? Do you climb into the tank and place the body gently in position? What about when the bottom of the tank is full do you walk on the bodies of the children that are already in there?

Or do you just wrap the child in a "shroud" and drop them into the tank through the small opening?

Flippyfloppy

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Nobody even knows how many people are buried in the plot in question ffs.

The nuns know btw.

I Heart Internet

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

See that's the thing. You can't dictate, or allow posters to discuss only certain aspects. That's the real reason you're here isn't it?

Yes. I am here to crush you. [fair warning, that was sarcasm]

I should have said, I'm not going to allow it go unquestioned.

If some posters weren't here, this thread would have lasted 2 pages and would have agreed to the satisfaction of all contributors that the nuns had smothered all the babies and that the RCC should be run out of Ireland.

I think those buried in that plot deserve better than that.

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. These 750+ children had noone to speak for them. So stop trying to minimise the knowledge we do have.

I'm trying to further the knowledge we have. I'm not content to hear the few details we have reported at the moment and draw conclusions from that.

I Heart Internet

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

The nuns know btw.

Then that would be a great place to begin the investigation.

Flippyfloppy

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Yes. I am here to crush you. [fair warning, that was sarcasm]

I should have said, I'm not going to allow it go unquestioned.

If some posters weren't here, this thread would have lasted 2 pages and would have agreed to the satisfaction of all contributors that the nuns had smothered all the babies and that the RCC should be run out of Ireland.

I think those buried in that plot deserve better than that.



I'm trying to further the knowledge we have. I'm not content to hear the few details we have reported at the moment and draw conclusions from that.

How exactly are you trying to 'further the knowledge' we have? By not contacting anyone in real life and encouraging the minimisation of what we do know as fact? Yeah...you're not doing it right.

Czarcasm

SeaDaily wrote: »

In this thread you have been trying to make out that the church was not involved in this by saying that an investigation has to be carried out before any conclusions can be made. I would view that as a defence of the RCC. I think you would have to be a fool to believe the RCC isn't to blame and I wonder how many cases such as this and how much evidence you need to see to realise that the RCC is at fault here and has been at fault for countless other atrocities in Ireland over the last many decades.

You'd have to be incredibly prejudiced to read a post calling for a full investigation, as a defense of anyone or any Institution. Nobody suggested that religious orders be excluded from any investigation. They can't be, and neither can all the lay people and civil servants that were aware of the atrocities being carried out there.

I mean, we have the documented reports and records, or at least the historian who broke the story does, so we have a starting point. These reports were kept filed away for decades and local people remained silent about what they knew. Should they not be held accountable as anyone else?

If we're calling for an investigation, it has to be impartial and unbiased so it stands up to scrutiny this time and not so much as a pebble is left unturned in the pursuit of justice for the women and children who were left by society to rot in these hell on earth holes.

I Heart Internet

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

How exactly are you trying to 'further the knowledge' we have? By not contacting anyone in real life and encouraging the minimisation of what we do know as fact? Yeah...you're not doing it right.

By encouraging posters here not to be content drawing conclusions from the few scraps of information we have to date.

Flippyfloppy

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Then that would be a great place to begin the investigation.

Obviously.

Funnily enough though, it hasn't happened yet though.

Drawing on previous real life experiences had by those around Ireland, pigs may fly when nuns divulge any information.

Flippyfloppy

I Heart Internet wrote: »

By encouraging posters here not to be content drawing conclusions from the few scraps of information we have to date.

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I want an investigation and am not content to allow posters on here distribute blame in the absence of facts. Nobody even knows how many people are buried in the plot in question ffs.



I haven't. I have no facts on the case so it certainly wouldn;t be appropriate for me to go to the Gardai. I couldn't even find the plot on a map.



On the contary, there is. And I'd encourage anyone here who knows anything to report it.



Where did I say I condoned the mass grave?????

Also, religious persuasion has zero to do with this. I nit pick posters who claim to know what happened in Tuam but have ZERO actual insight into what that might be.

Encourage, nit pick, not allow; do they all mean the same to you? I haven't even seen any nit picking, that would suggest you can pick holes in the facts people are stating. You can't. Repeatedly pretending to 'call for an investigation' yet not actually calling for one is pointless.

Cabaal

http://www.thejournal.ie/800-babies-tuam-home-1497779-Jun2014/

THE CABINET IS to discuss the allegations that a mass grave containing the bodies of almost 800 children has been found on the grounds of a former home for unmarried mothers in Galway.

Minister for Children Charlie Flanagan said he was shocked by the “appalling revelations” about the home. ”The full facts surrounding the matter must be established,” he said.

I Heart Internet

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

Obviously.

Funnily enough though, it hasn't happened yet though.

I would suggest there are two reasons this hasn't happened (or wouldn't happen speedily if peole aren't careful).

1) In the past (60s/70s/80s) people were happy to assume that this was all handled appropriately becasue the nuns weree involved and it was all dandy.
2) More recently (and now), people are happy to assume that this was the direct killing of children by the nuns and sure aren't the nuns responsible for killing or maiming every child that was ever in their care. Case closed.

Both are unhelpful extremes, that tend to stiffle any investigation.

My view, and I hope it's one many might share is: We don't really know what happened. Lets carry out a full, thorough investigation and find out what really happened.

Flippyfloppy

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I would suggest there are two reasons this hasn't happened (or wouldn't happen speedily if peole aren't careful).

1) In the past (60s/70s/80s) people were happy to assume that this was all handled appropriately becasue the nuns weree involved and it was all dandy.
2) More recently (and now), people are happy to assume that this was the direct killing of children by the nuns and sure aren't the nuns responsible for killing or maiming every child that was ever in their care.

Both are unhelpful extremes, that tend to stiffle any investigation.

My view, and I hope it's one many might share is: We don't really know what happened. Lets carry out a full, thorough investigation and find out what really happened.

First point, obviously. Second point...I do believe only one poster on here has suggested 1st degree murder.

marienbad

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Can you point to a post of mine where I suggested the burials were appropriate?

Investigation has been called for , awaiting outcome.

SeaDaily

Czarcasm wrote: »

You'd have to be incredibly prejudiced to read a post calling for a full investigation, as a defense of anyone or any Institution. Nobody suggested that religious orders be excluded from any investigation. They can't be, and neither can all the lay people and civil servants that were aware of the atrocities being carried out there.

I mean, we have the documented reports and records, or at least the historian who broke the story does, so we have a starting point. These reports were kept filed away for decades and local people remained silent about what they knew. Should they not be held accountable as anyone else?

If we're calling for an investigation, it has to be impartial and unbiased so it stands up to scrutiny this time and not so much as a pebble is left unturned in the pursuit of justice for the women and children who were left by society to rot in these hell on earth holes.

I am, of course, all for a full investigation. However, I do not see what is wrong with assuming the church are to blame (at least partially) for this. I you think that we so far do not have enough information to conclude the church were involved in this, fair enough, but I disagree. Any facts currently available to us point to them and until some facts emerge that exonerate them from blame I will continue to believe they are at fault. You might quote the old "innocent until proven guilty" line to me, but after all I am not a justice system, I am an individual with an opinion,and I believe I have seen enough evidence to prove that the church had a part to play in this.

If you feel the church did not have a part to play in this then that's okay, but I simply disagree.

freedominacup

Cabaal wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/800-babies-tuam-home-1497779-Jun2014/

The above is b0ll0cks. There is no statute of limitations on indictable offences in this country. There is no requirement for any cabinet meeting. Certainly not one whose purpose is to frame the terms of reference for some sort of tribunal/inquiry. As usual the main purpose of any inquiry would be to protect the status quo by ensuring that enough evidence is discussed in a public forum to ensure any criminal prosecution is hopelessly compromised as per all other public inquiries I can remember all the way back to the Kerry babies in the early eighties. Make a report to the local garda station and follow it up to make sure the case is being investigated.

I Heart Internet

marienbad wrote: »

Investigation has been called for , awaiting outcome.

I see, so you can't. How embarresing for you.

SeaDaily

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Lets carry out a full, thorough investigation and find out what really happened.

Okay then go ahead, carry out an investigation.

If in fact you do not intend to take an active part in ensuring an investigation takes place, please refrain from incessantly saying "we can't think anything until an investigation has been carried out". As it is, you saying a proper investigation should be carried out have no weight behind them and are simply empty words on a page.

Buzz Killington the third

In my opinion, one of the most disturbing parts of the story is that there seems to be more interest in erecting a memorial plaque than conducting an investigation.

marienbad

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I see, so you can't. How embarresing for you.

Now now , stop speculating and jumping to conclusions before the results are in , very unhelpful.

lynski

Go take a look at the discussion on this issue on the Christianity board. Interesting read.

bumper234

lynski wrote: »

Go take a look at the discussion on this issue on the Christianity board. Interesting read.

Am on phone, link please?

SeaDaily

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I see, so you can't. How embarresing for you.

Well put it this way, at no point have you openly said that the burials were inappropriate. If you don't think they are inappropriate you must think they are appropriate.