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Mass unmarked grave for 800 babies in Tuam

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    #422
    mrsbyrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,228 ✭✭✭mrsbyrne


    robindch wrote: »
    I was going to post you a private message, but you've asked publicly.

    "FYP" means "Fixed your post" and people use it here and elsewhere to take the words that somebody has written, then change some of them (normally highlighting the changed words in some way, for example putting them in bold), so that the altered text means what the writer actually meant, or what they should have meant, or what the person who wrote "fyp" wanted them to say, or something variation on that.

    "FYP" indicates that the posters words have been changed and by common convention, that's fine, once it's indicated clearly and once it's not done too often.

    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fyp

    BTW, I've deleted your response as it's a personal comment made without the knowledge of what "FYP" means in an internet discussion forum.
    So your happy to stand over bumper234 s fyp and I can take it to an administrator?


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    #423
    SeaDaily
    Registered Users Posts: 613 ✭✭✭SeaDaily


    mrsbyrne wrote: »
    But you didn't post any comment of mine. Not one. And now your talking about undertones, as if we were discussing paint samples. No your right you simply cannot help me.

    Infact I posted 9 posts of yours in which you were, in my eyes, trying to defend the church.


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    #424
    Czarcasm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    SeaDaily wrote: »
    If you feel the church did not have a part to play in this then that's okay, but I simply disagree.


    Take off your moral superiority blinkers and read my post again -

    Czarcasm wrote: »
    You'd have to be incredibly prejudiced to read a post calling for a full investigation, as a defense of anyone or any Institution. Nobody suggested that religious orders be excluded from any investigation. They can't be, and neither can all the lay people and civil servants that were aware of the atrocities being carried out there.


    In case you're STILL not clear on it -

    ABSOLUTELY the RCC Hierarchy, the religious orders, the congregation, lay persons, ALL OF THEM, have to be held accountable and responsible for their actions and the part they played in the workhouses and the laundries.

    Now we've hopefully cleared that one up. An impartial investigation has to encompass EVERYONE who had anything to do with subjecting human beings to the suffering these people went through, including the people who remained silent at the time when they were AWARE of what was going on.

    This tragedy has less to do with religion, and more to do with human nature, and you trying to focus solely on blaming the RCC for this is just short sighted and blinkered in the extreme. This didn't happen in a vacuum, and for you to be constantly banging on about "The Church did this, you're defending the Church!", is misguided anger that ignores the numerous other organizations and individuals that were just as responsible as the RCC.

    Let go of your prejudices and your moral grandstanding because it's clouding your judgment and preventing you from examining the evidence and the facts with an open mind.


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    #425
    mrsbyrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,228 ✭✭✭mrsbyrne


    SeaDaily wrote: »
    You obviously haven't read any of the reports surrounding this have you? The children died due to a combination of neglect and malnutrition on behalf of the nuns and they were then buried in a mass grave just beside the home.

    If you have already decided that this is what happened then why do you see any need for an investigation? Or do you honestly feel an investigation would be a waste of time? It was the nuns wot done it nuffin else to see ere guv?


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    #426
    SeaDaily
    Registered Users Posts: 613 ✭✭✭SeaDaily


    Czarcasm wrote: »
    Take off your moral superiority blinkers and read my post again -





    In case you're STILL not clear on it -

    ABSOLUTELY the RCC Hierarchy, the religious orders, the congregation, lay persons, ALL OF THEM, have to be held accountable and responsible for their actions and the part they played in the workhouses and the laundries.

    Now we've hopefully cleared that one up. An impartial investigation has to encompass EVERYONE who had anything to do with subjecting human beings to the suffering these people went through, including the people who remained silent at the time when they were AWARE of what was going on.

    This tragedy has less to do with religion, and more to do with human nature, and you trying to focus solely on blaming the RCC for this is just short sighted and blinkered in the extreme. This didn't happen in a vacuum, and for you to be constantly banging on about "The Church did this, you're defending the Church!", is misguided anger that ignores the numerous other organizations and individuals that were just as responsible as the RCC.

    Let go of your prejudices and your moral grandstanding because it's clouding your judgment and preventing you from examining the evidence and the facts with an open mind.

    I disagree with you. I don't believe people who failed to report this things are as much to blame as the RCC who were the actual perpetrators. That's like saying in a murder case someone who failed to report the crime is as guilty as the murderer themselves and I don't think that this is the case.


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    #427
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Czarcasm wrote: »
    This didn't happen in a vacuum, and for you to be constantly banging on about "The Church did this, you're defending the Church!", is misguided anger that ignores the numerous other organizations and individuals that were just as responsible as the RCC.

    Yes, the Gardaí should have arrested the nuns, the DPP should have prosecuted them, the Government should have seized their assets, and provided for the imprisoned women and children...


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    #428
    SeaDaily
    Registered Users Posts: 613 ✭✭✭SeaDaily


    mrsbyrne wrote: »
    If you have already decided that this is what happened then why do you see any need for an investigation? Or do you honestly feel an investigation would be a waste of time? It was the nuns wot done it nuffin else to see ere guv?

    A full investigation is needed to ensure nothing like this happens again and to ensure that all perpetrators who were involved may be punished accordingly.


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    #429
    mrsbyrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,228 ✭✭✭mrsbyrne


    SeaDaily wrote: »
    Infact I posted 9 posts of yours in which you were, in my eyes, trying to defend the church.

    No you didn't . Not one. Nada.


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    #430
    SeaDaily
    Registered Users Posts: 613 ✭✭✭SeaDaily


    mrsbyrne wrote: »
    No you didn't . Not one. Nada.

    I did. 9 of them. Page 26. Post #377.


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    #431
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,417 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    mrsbyrne wrote: »
    So your happy to stand over bumper234 s fyp and I can take it to an administrator?
    As I made spectacularly clear to you, yes, "FYP" is a common internet convention. I'm sorry to hear that you don't like it, but there's not much that I can do about that. If you wish to seek a second judgement on a matter of moderation, you can take your query to the feedback forum.
    ryan101 wrote: »
    When are you going to moderate the incitement to hatred posts that were reported to you?
    Any post that the mod team decides constitutes "incitement to hatred", and are therefore against the forum charter, will be dealt with according to the forum charter and the rules of boards.ie. The posts that you reported did not constitute "incitement to hatred" and -- just FYI -- you appear to believe that criticism of certain religious organizations, their policies, conduct and employees amounts to such incitement. It certainly does not.

    As with mrsbyrne's comments, if you have an issue with the moderation in A+A, please feel free to take up your concerns in the feedback forum where they will be reviewed by senior site administrators.


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    #432
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    mrsbyrne wrote: »
    So your happy to stand over bumper234 s fyp and I can take it to an administrator?
    I've been following this thread. The usage of "FYP" is an Internet discussion norm. It's not everyone's cup of tea, and overuse is frowned upon. But single usage such as in this thread is not breaking any rules.

    The inclusion of the term "FYP" lets people know that your quote has been edited, so it doesn't change your original post in any way.


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    #433
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    mrsbyrne wrote: »
    If you have already decided that this is what happened then why do you see any need for an investigation? Or do you honestly feel an investigation would be a waste of time? It was the nuns wot done it nuffin else to see ere guv?


    Why do you think the death rate in the home was four times greater than the national average?


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    #434
    mrsbyrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,228 ✭✭✭mrsbyrne


    SeaDaily wrote: »
    I did. 9 of them. Page 26. Post #377.

    You just picked 9 of my posts. In not one of them is their one iota of me defending or excusing the RCC. Not one iota. Now your trying to read between the lines , reffering to "undertones" . The old adage remains, when your in a hole, stop digging.


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    #435
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,417 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Abortion-related posts have been moved to the abortion thread. Any more abortion related posts will be either moved or deleted.


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    #436
    SeaDaily
    Registered Users Posts: 613 ✭✭✭SeaDaily


    mrsbyrne wrote: »
    You just picked 9 of my posts. In not one of them is their one iota of me defending or excusing the RCC. Not one iota. Now your trying to read between the lines , reffering to "undertones" . The old adage remains, when your in a hole, stop digging.

    You said this in one of your posts.

    "Yes but you don't know how the bodies got there. You don't know who put them there or why or when.
    You are just speculating."

    Considering the facts available to us it is quite obvious that the nuns were involved with putting the bodies there. To deny this is to defend the RCC and furthermore is extremely ignorant. You really believe the 800 bodies of dead babies is un-connected to "The Home" run by Bon Secours nuns immediately adjacent to the burial site?


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    #437
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    SeaDaily wrote: »
    You really believe the 800 bodies of dead babies is un-connected to "The Home" run by Bon Secours nuns immediately adjacent to the burial site?

    Where, by a strange coincidence, 800 deaths were recorded of children for whom no burial records can be found?


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    #438
    mrsbyrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,228 ✭✭✭mrsbyrne


    SeaDaily wrote: »
    You said this in one of your posts.

    "Yes but you don't know how the bodies got there. You don't know who put them there or why or when.
    You are just speculating."

    Considering the facts available to us it is quite obvious that the nuns were involved with putting the bodies there. To deny this is to defend the RCC and furthermore is extremely ignorant. You really believe the 800 bodies of dead babies is un-connected to "The Home" run by Bon Secours nuns immediately adjacent to the burial site?
    SeaDaily are we looking at the same post? Where in the post do I defend or make excuses for RCC? You simply cannot make things up as you are going along!


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    #439
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    mrsbyrne wrote: »
    SeaDaily are we looking at the same post? Where in the post do I defend or make excuses for RCC? You simply cannot make things up as you are going along!
    Why do you think the death rate in the home was four times greater than the national average?


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    #440
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,417 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Ryan101 is taking a day's holiday for incivility.


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    #441
    mrsbyrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,228 ✭✭✭mrsbyrne


    Nodin wrote: »
    Why do you think the death rate in the home was four times greater than the national average?

    I've no idea. I'm sure all will be revealed after the investigation. Out of respect for any surviving family members I think it would be cruel offensive and distatsefull to speculate.


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    #442
    smokingman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,749 ✭✭✭smokingman


    mrsbyrne wrote: »
    I've no idea. I'm sure all will be revealed after the investigation. Out of respect for any surviving family members I think it would be cruel offensive and distatsefull to speculate.


    Who do you think is responsible for the death rate in the home, being four times greater than the national average?


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    #443
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2014/06/03/bodies-of-800-children-were-just-resting-in-mass-grave-claims-catholic-church/


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    #444
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    mrsbyrne wrote: »
    I've no idea. I'm sure all will be revealed after the investigation. Out of respect for any surviving family members I think it would be cruel offensive and distatsefull to speculate.


    Well wild speculation would be unhelpful. Thankfully, we have evidence from another home.......

    IRISH adoptees are desperate to find out about a doctor who closed a mother and baby home in the 1940s due to its high mortality rates.

    The late Dr James Deeny, a former chief medical officer for the Department of Health, was so shocked by the death rates of babies born at Bessborough, Co Cork, that he temporarily shut the place down.

    In his memoirs, Dr Deeny estimated more than 100 out of 180 babies born at the Church-run institution for single mothers died in one year.

    Members of Adoption Rights Now (ARN ARN Access Research Network
    ARN Advanced Remote Node
    ARN Acide Ribonucléique (French: RNA)
    ARN Autoridad Regulatoria Nuclear (Argentina)
    ARN Association of Rehabilitation Nurses ) are seeking a "full public inquiry into the vicious treatment of mothers and babies and the consequent high mortality rates, in Government and Catholic-run institutions in Ireland".

    They hope to find the full report that Dr Deeny made on the Bessborough mother-and-baby home run by the Sisters of the Sacred Heart The Sacred Heart is a religious devotion to Jesus' physical heart as the representation of the divine love for humanity

    This devotion is predominantly used in the Roman Catholic Church and also used in the Anglican Church.
    ..... Click the link for more information..

    "It was a beautiful institution, built onto a lovely old house just before the war, and seemed to be well-run and spotlessly clean. I marched up and down and around about and could not make out what was wrong. At last I took a notion and stripped all the babies and, unusually for a chief medical adviser, examined them.







    "Every baby had some purulent


    infection of the skin and all had green diarrhoea, carefully covered up. There was obviously a staphylococcus infection about.

    "Without any legal authority I closed the place down and sacked the matron, a nun, and also got rid of the medical officer. The deaths had been going on for years. They had done nothing.

    "A couple of days later I had a visit in Dublin from the nuns' man of affairs and he was followed by the Dean of Cork, Monsignor Sexton, and finally the Bishop of Cork complained to the Papal Nuncio Noun 1. papal nuncio - (Roman Catholic Church) a diplomatic representative of the Pope having ambassadorial status
    nuncio

    Church of Rome, Roman Catholic Church, Roman Church, Western Church, Roman Catholic - the Christian Church based in the Vatican and , who went to see De Valera. "


    http://www.thejournal.ie/morality-mother-and-baby-homes-1029062-Aug2013/


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    #445
    mrsbyrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,228 ✭✭✭mrsbyrne


    smokingman wrote: »
    Who do you think is responsible for the death rate in the home, being four times greater than the national average?

    I've just answered that question. Its the post right above yours.


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    #446
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    mrsbyrne wrote: »
    I've just answered that question. Its the post right above yours.


    And ive provided more insight into the conditions in such homes in the period. Care to comment now?


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    #447
    SeaDaily
    Registered Users Posts: 613 ✭✭✭SeaDaily


    mrsbyrne wrote: »
    I've just answered that question. Its the post right above yours.

    Nope. The first question asked "why", the second asked "who".


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    #448
    Czarcasm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    SeaDaily wrote: »
    I disagree with you. I don't believe people who failed to report this things are as much to blame as the RCC who were the actual perpetrators.


    So those health inspectors who recorded the abuse and mistreatment of these children are not to blame as much as the nuns?

    The people who sent their relatives to these workhouses and laundries, knowing the suffering they would be subjected to at the hands of the nuns are not to blame as much as the nuns?

    The State and the Government who paid these nuns and were aware of the conditions of these peoples suffering at the hands of these religious orders are not to blame as much as the nuns?

    The locals who remained silent on their knowledge of the existence of these mass graves are not to blame as much as the nuns?

    The RCC is made up of the Hierarchy, the religious orders, AND the ordinary members of the congregation, all of whom were aware at the time of the suffering inflicted on human beings behind the walls of the workhouses and laundries.

    That's like saying in a murder case someone who failed to report the crime is as guilty as the murderer themselves and I don't think that this is the case.


    It is, isn't it? Just like you're trying to say modern day Roman Catholics are somehow as much to blame as the nuns who perpetrated these acts of intolerable cruelty against people that society back then wanted nothing to do with and turned a blind eye to their suffering, until of course this tragedy came to light in the media and THEN suddenly everyone gets morally outraged.

    Not much point in getting morally outraged now when it's fifty years too late for the victims who have already perished in State sponsored ethnic cleansing performed by people who society were more than willing to let take care of their "problems".

    I'm one of those modern day Roman Catholics, and the behavior of some sections of society back then sickens me to my core as much as it does today, so for you to think I could even begin to defend their actions, I can only say with the greatest of respect -

    Get the fcuk down off your moral high horse.


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    #449
    iguana
    Registered Users Posts: 12,916 ✭✭✭✭iguana


    Less than 4 hours since it went live and we've passed 250 signatures on the petition. Hopefully it will gain momentum and we'll meet the initial goal of 2000 tomorrow. Once we achieve that number I'm going to start sending the link to TDs.


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    #450
    SeaDaily
    Registered Users Posts: 613 ✭✭✭SeaDaily


    Czarcasm wrote: »
    Get the fcuk down off your moral high horse.

    Chill out there now, no need to resort to swearing.


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    #451
    SeaDaily
    Registered Users Posts: 613 ✭✭✭SeaDaily


    Czarcasm wrote: »
    I'm one of those modern day Roman Catholics, and the behavior of some sections of society back then sickens me to my core as much as it does today, so for you to think I could even begin to defend their actions, I can only say with the greatest of respect -

    I never once referred to you at any point btw.


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