Mass unmarked grave for 800 babies in Tuam

jimgoose

SpaceTime wrote: »

I'm actually not convinced that the state is capable of investigating this objectively.

I agree. It will, at best, wind up as some toothless report (full of redaction and with half the records "unavailable") and the awarding of some pathetic "compensation" using taxpayer's money. Meanwhile, the criminals who perpetrated/covered up this atrocity will be scott-free to preserve their piety by fund-raising for God-damned memorials.

I think Interpol and/or the United Nations should handle this one.

SpaceTime

Considering the legislature starts every session with :
The Oireachtas still starts sessions with :

http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=/documents/a-misc/prayer.htm

"Direct, we beseech Thee, O Lord, our actions by Thy holy inspirations and carry them on by Thy gracious assistance; that every word and work of ours may always begin from Thee, and by Thee be happily ended; through Christ our Lord. Amen"

I wouldn't be counting on any serious level of objectivity.

It's still a very weird country in many respects.

Going Strong

Lingua Franca wrote: »

Not just Youth Defense but Life Institute, Pro Life campaign, Precious Life, Family and Life... not a single word on the matter from any of them.

Wrong battleground you see. A bit tricky when it's something as horrendous as this that involves dead children of the "wrong sort." I expect we'll get something mealy-mouthed soon enough about waiting for all the facts to come out from the official spokespeople while the astroturf brigade do their best to muddy the waters on the internet. See the fallout from the Halappanavar tragedy to see the tactics.

I Heart Internet

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Youth Defense arent saying anything about this, I know theyre mainly about abortion but if someone was killing live babies they would be all over it.

This appears to be a case of maltreatment of treatment in "care" and inapropriate (disgracefully appropriate if the allegations are true) treatment of the bodies of deceased children.

Whereas the abortion issue is about the deliberate ending of human life and disposal of embryos - in one notable case in England, via a hospital's heating system.

They are two different issues.

eviltwin

I Heart Internet wrote: »

This appears to be a case of maltreatment of treatment in "care" and inapropriate (disgracefully appropriate if the allegations are true) treatment of the bodies of deceased children.

Whereas the abortion issue is about the deliberate ending of human life and disposal of embryos - in one notable case in England, via a hospital's heating system.

They are two different issues.

That hospital heating system story is a total read herring, all medical waste in the hospital in question is disposed of that way, not just aborted or miscarried foetues but the way YD spin it you would think its the primary function of abortion to heat a hospital :rolleyes:

I Heart Internet

eviltwin wrote: »

That hospital heating system story is a total read herring, all medical waste in the hospital in question is disposed of that way, not just aborted or miscarried foetues but the way YD spin it you would think its the primary function of abortion to heat a hospital :rolleyes:

You're dead right. All medical waste (and probably non-medical waste) is likely sent to the incinerator with energy recovery. I don't think it's a red herring though, the newspapers (I think) that raised it are just pointing out the facts.

eviltwin

I Heart Internet wrote: »

You're dead right. All medical waste (and probably non-medical waste) is likely sent to the incinerator with energy recovery. I don't think it's a red herring though. Just pointing out the facts.

But you focus on the one thing guaranteed to get people riled up, amputated limbs don't have quite the same emotional pull do they.

I Heart Internet

eviltwin wrote: »

But you focus on the one thing guaranteed to get people riled up, amputated limbs don't have quite the same emotional pull do they.

I didn't pull abortion/youth defence into this thread.

Why would people be rilled up about "medical waste?"

eviltwin

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I didn't pull abortion/youth defence into this thread.

Why would people be rilled up about "medical waste?"

You're the one who felt it appropriate to mention it, why? For the shock value?

I Heart Internet

eviltwin wrote: »

You're the one who felt it appropriate to mention it, why? For the shock value?

How is it shocking? It's just factual.

kylith

I Heart Internet wrote: »

This appears to be a case of maltreatment of treatment in "care" and inapropriate (disgracefully appropriate if the allegations are true) treatment of the bodies of deceased children.

Whereas the abortion issue is about the deliberate ending of human life and disposal of embryos - in one notable case in England, via a hospital's heating system.

They are two different issues.

While I agree that they are separate issues if the maltreatment in care is found to have lead directly to the deaths of these children then it certainly would be the deliberate ending of human life. A life which has been born and is several years old and can, unlike an embryo, feel fear, hunger, and pain making it, in my opinion, orders of magnitude worse than any legal abortion ever performed.

In fact, it is my opinion that the deliberate neglect of children in Irish orphanages leading to their deaths is much worse than every single legal abortion ever performed combined.

Cabaal

Lads, any chance you can keep the abortion stuff out of this thread?

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2014/06/04/dig-up/

Freelance journalist Gwen Boyle writes:

796 tiny bodies, squashed into a septic tank. Bones upon bones; the bones of 1960s babies mingling with the bones of 1950s, 40s, 30s, 20s babies in untold layers of misery, layers of starvation, layers of neglect.

The horror of the discovery, or rather re-discovery, of the mass grave at the old site of the Bon Secours mother and baby home in Tuam, Co. Galway last week caused no more than a flinch for some, an involuntary turning away.

On the day that the tireless work of local historian Catherine Corless and her colleagues became known to the wider world, RTE News devoted their time to the story of Kim Kardashian and Kanye West’s honeymoon in Cork. In an age of instant information and desperate press oneupmanship, it is impossible that the revelations in Tuam escaped their notice. It is also unlikely that a conspiracy was afoot at the state broadcaster to keep this unfortunate story quiet.

The most likely reason for RTE’s inexplicable blindness, along with that of many other major news outlets, is much more prosaic and much more terrifying.

It was ignored because it wasn’t a story. It wasn’t news. It no longer surprises us that these things have happened.

Almost 800 babies shoved into a septic tank, uncared for, unmarked, unremembered? Of course they were. What else would you expect from the organisation that presided over the rape of thousands of children, the forced adoption of thousands more, untold years of slave labour, and the incarceration, brutalisation and shaming of women?

The story, which is gaining traction days later as news outlets recognise their terrible oversight, has garnered little more than a shrug from the established press, barely a mumble from the State, and a defensive, sidestepping statement from representatives of the Catholic church.

What can explain this reluctance to report, to engage, to imagine?

Certainly, no-one wants to imagine it.

We would prefer not to think about those women, removed from their homes and families, giving birth under the gaze of disapproving nuns, watching their babies starve, or die from a preventable disease, or disappear one day into a car to be sold to a new family. We would prefer not to think of disabled babies slowly dying in lonely, shabby rooms. We would prefer not to think about exactly how those babies’ bodies ended up in the septic tank. We would prefer not to think of the symbolism of that tank, of what those babies meant to the people who were meant to care for their tiny souls. We would prefer not to, but perhaps we should.

That said, Irish people now outstrip their official mouthpieces. Many of us don’t share this reluctance. Given the opportunity, we react. In floods of outrage on social media, in the comments section of online news, in conversations on the street, in letters to the paper, people freely speak of things that we would prefer not to think about, but that it would be worse to forget.

With anger and disgust, people condemn the actions of a church that claimed to love and a state that claimed to care. The story goes global, but at home, fringe media and even satirical news sites provide coverage more hard-hitting than anything in the Irish Times. The attitude of ordinary people on this island toward the Catholic church has changed swiftly in the wake of scandal after scandal, while traditional media and government spokespeople still struggle against decades of ingrained deference and outdated modes of public engagement.

This week, Pope Francis, seeming concerned about the world’s chronic underpopulation, lamented the fact that some married couples choose not to have children. He accused these couples of selfishly preferring their holidays and dogs to the propagation of loyal young Catholics.

These future children, we can be assured, would be cherished. The children of marriage. The children of devout followers. Not the children of unwed mothers, the children of other religions and none, the unbaptised, the unwanted. Times have changed since these children were left to die of neglect and disposed of in septic tanks, but they are still not the right kind of children for the church to cherish.

The church that still reaches deeply into Irish lives and psyches is not the church of Jesus Christ, a man who by all accounts simply wanted people to care for one another without reservation or prejudice. It is an organisation that thrives on power, that runs on secrecy, that entangles itself in the lives and deaths of its followers.

However, revelations about babies in septic tanks, now matter how slowly they filter into the mainstream, are unforgettable once lodged in the public imagination. Ireland has changed, and continues to change, while the press and government struggle to keep up with the outrage of the people.

Some members of government suggest a memorial might be in order. The Archbishop of Dublin thinks that the matter is possibly worthy of a social history project. What neither of them wants is an excavation.

Why? Because an excavation means bones. Bones that will be brought to light, touched, examined, photographed. Bones that will reach the front pages of papers and the corners of the internet. Thousands of tiny, fragile bones, permanently engraved in the minds of Irish people everywhere.

I honestly think thats why it wasn't a big news story,

Its not seen as a shocking thing anymore, bunch of kids died due to mistreatment by nuns or priests or kids were abused by nuns or priests is now seen as business as unusual back then. Its no longer shocking, its no longer news worthy in many people's eye's.

Devout Catholics also (worryingly enough) are not outraged and asking for the catholic church to comply with any and all investigations both in Ireland and Internationally, instead they remain silent...except for the odd prayer.

Many more Catholics are quick to try and deflect from the issue by any means they can and some Catholics even exist that have convinced themselves that these crimes are made up and made out to be worse then they were! (yes they do exist and yes I've met them!)

Its extremely worrying that neither that catholic church, media nor government wants these bones dug up and examined. Its the only true way we'll know what happened, I'd doubt the accuracy of the records kept by the nuns at this stage.

When you realise just how the nuns viewed these children its not a massive step to think that they may have been mistreated in ways which have caused some deaths...I don't mean lack of food or heating, i mean physical mistreatment.

While this may not have happened I believe that it still needs to be checked in full, answers are needed and leaving the bones in the ground and building some monument is not the answer!

You have to remember that these children were looked on as the lowest of the low by the nuns and priests, these children weren't even good enough for a christian burial, they had no soul to save.

These children were the scum of the earth (in the nuns eyes) that nuns threatened to sit beside you in school if you did something wrong back then, they had nothing and they weren't even given a respectful burial by the people that claimed and were paid to care for them, as a society we should weep....

FouxDaFaFa

So predictable that the Irish press only starts giving a crap about this when it goes international.

(I don't mean the broadsheet, btw. That's a great article).

Mr. CooL ICE

Temptamperu wrote: »

I am quite embarrassed to be Irish today.

You shouldn't be embarrassed by where you were born. Just like you shouldn't be treated like a 2nd class citizen and dumped in a septic tank ultimately because of how you were conceived.

eyescreamcone

Would these 796 children have been better looked after if they were adopted by same sex couples???

This question is especially for Mr. David Quinn and his Iona/RCC cronies

I Heart Internet

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Would these 796 children have been better looked after if they were adopted by same sex couples???

Yes. But, in most cases, not even their own grandparents wanted them it seems.

Cabaal

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Would these 796 children have been better looked after if they were adopted by same sex couples???

Yes, without a doubt.
However, back then it was a crime to be gay...you know cause the bible said it was wrong.

bumper234

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Would these 796 children have been better looked after if they were adopted by same sex couples???

What a silly question.

I Heart Internet

bumper234 wrote: »

What a silly question.

It's quite typical unfortunetly. First the question of abortion is dragged in, now same-sex marriage. It's a convenient scandal in that sense for some. Next up, patronage of schools.

jank

nagirrac wrote: »

....Germany for example had to face after WWII...

..and had effectively as much control over society as the Soviet secret police..

....is the same mindset and judgmental urge that banished our former citizens to the gulag....

I know that emotions run high when news such as this breaks and conversations can lapse into hysteria but can we please at least try and keep a lid on this rubbish?

eviltwin

I Heart Internet wrote: »

It's quite typical unfortunetly. First the question of abortion is dragged in, now same-sex marriage. It's a convenient scandal in that sense for some. Next up, patronage of schools.

I think its valid. Most of us grew up in RC homes and we were preached weekly about how to live our lives, what not to do, what would happen to us if we did the things we weren't supposed to do etc. All the time the people lecturing us were doing things of this nature. Today they still lecture people on how to live their lives, people who often aren't even Catholic and yet they are very quiet on their own failings. It probably reads to you as an attack but I am sure its not meant to be, people are frustrated and angry, they feel betrayed and misled, they want to see a response, they want to see humanity from the church not just a token "sorry" that seems to be the norm in these cases.

I Heart Internet

eviltwin wrote: »

It probably reads to you as an attack but I am sure its not meant to be, people are frustrated and angry, they feel betrayed and misled, they want to see a response, they want to see humanity from the church not just a token "sorry" that seems to be the norm in these cases.

No. It's just meandering off the point to satisfy people's own personal pet-gripe.

I don't see how griping about Youth Defence and gay marriage is going to help anything. Just self-satisfied chatter.

eviltwin

I Heart Internet wrote: »

No. It's just meandering off the point to satisfy people's own personal pet-gripe.

I don't see how griping about Youth Defence and gay marriage is going to help anything. Just self-satisfied chatter.

You cannot see the point at all? You cannot see the irony that YD and Iona et al rant and rave about the choices other people make which are private choices and yet stay very quiet about abuse on this scale? You can't see the disconnect there

eyescreamcone

I Heart Internet wrote: »

It's quite typical unfortunetly. First the question of abortion is dragged in, now same-sex marriage. It's a convenient scandal in that sense for some. Next up, patronage of schools.

The RCC holds itself up as a moral voice to us all (even unbelievers).
It tells us abortion is wrong
It says same sex couples should not adopt (or marry)

But then it treats children in it's care like dogs.

Seeing as you brought up patronage in schools. I believe the RCC is THE LAST group on earth that should be let over the threshold of our state funded schools.
The RCC's treatment of the children in it's care has been dispicable.

If the GAA had a fraction of these scandals the organisation would have been shut down ages ago. Let alone still control the majority of schools in the country.



Is it fair to say that the RCC can now be described as anti-children???





Mr. Fagan of Oliver Twist fame treated the children in his care better than the good ol' RCC!!!

Spring Onion

What I don't understand is this - does anyone in the Catholic church have any cop on? I am not including that vile man Sean Brady in that question.
But the rest of them know that now is the time to come clean about all their "crimes" and try to salvage something from the ruins of their organisation. There must be many people in the church hierarchy that knew they had children buried in mass graves with no recognition - surely that kept them awake at night? Why didn't they admit it and apologise and then fix it?
Are they dumb animals or what?

mikom

Nothing to see here folks............. move along.
Pope Francis assures me he registered this septic tank with Phil Hogan.

I Heart Internet

eviltwin wrote: »

You cannot see the point at all? You cannot see the irony that YD and Iona et al rant and rave about the choices other people make which are private choices and yet stay very quiet about abuse on this scale? You can't see the disconnect there

I'm waiting patiently for the Alliance for Choice's press release on the matter. Did I miss it??

I Heart Internet

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Seeing as you brought up patronage in schools. I believe.....

Off you go.

shruikan2553

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I'm waiting patiently for the Alliance for Choice's press release on the matter. Did I miss it??

Alliance of choice aren't a group that goes around screaming about saving babies.

Cabaal

I Heart Internet / jank

Just want to ask you both some questions
1. Do you think the catholic church's handling of the previous sex abuse cases and investigations have been done to an acceptable and good standards?

2. Do you think it is ok for the Vatican to refuse to co-operate with the UN investigations.

3. Do you think it is acceptable for a Sean Brady to remain in his position given his involvement in a previous abuse cover up and his awareness of victims of abuse and their details which could have allowed him to stop victims from being abused by a particular priest.

4. Do you think its acceptable for the Vatican to stand idly by and say nothing to the catholic organisations that have refused to meet their commitments to the victim compensation scheme. Surely if the Vatican can comment on a countrys laws, then its not a big deal for them to give direction to a catholic organisation that they have far closer links to?

You're both great for calling for investigations for this case, but lets see some meaningful responses to the questions outlined above. You don't seem particularly outraged about all this in alot of people's eye's in this thread.